I really like ESL's...always have. Now that's what I call music!
Artisan Fidelity sell modified Lencos in really lovely looking plinths.
They advertise here...... http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1311228359&/Lenco-L75-DCHM-lignum-vitae-St
Boring and predictable are envious traits in this hobby IMO.
I'll check the Lenco Heaven site....... |
Dover...wholeheartedly agree about Oracle.
Jacques is a true gentleman and he stands by his product like no other I have experienced.
He gives me so much help and time on a table that is 30 years old.
Now that's service! |
That last post was aimed at Mauintunc not Dover.
Mauintunc....I absolutely agree with you.
Oracle are a real stand up company with a great and historically significant product. That incidentally, recreates piano like a real champ! |
Great, but only if you use silver USB connectors. |
I had an Oracle for 15 years from the late eighties. 10 of those years it sat in a cupboard because I could not get drive belts. I was advised that the company had closed. Eventually I purchased a stash of NOS belts and sold it off. I actually liked the turntable, I used it with both an ET2/Carnegie and a Zeta/Koetsu. I preferred my Sota Star/ET2/Carnegie that I also owned - better timing and pitch stability as ridiculous as that may seem. Since then I have gone to a heavy platter/non suspended tt and this is the most stable for me. I also own Garrard 301 and 401 for fun. |
Dover, come on your reply is just a joke in relation to Oracle, really hard for me to believe you were that gullible not to pick-up the phone and contact Oracle yourself.
Really amazes me what I read in these threads. |
Dear LewM, I was wondering if you'd compared that Lenco to other serious tables like SME 20, Brinkman Balance that I mentioned etc? If yes, it would be helpful to hear your impressions.
In any case, it appears that we did confuse the man, and he has an important decision to make. |
Mauidj,
If opinions is what you want well ... as you can see from above lots of them.
Just look at In_shore thread basically suggesting "DD tables" is the way to go, going to the extent of his thread listing individuals, please!
I have nothing against DD drives personally but what I have heard in set-ups offer a different flavour which might or might not be for you, your choice.
Depending on which table you listen to also, they actually offer different sonics. Lots of info. and owners like Lewm are doing on going tweaks from bearing changes, plinths, re-builds and this and that.
The list goes on and on, a tweakers delight, personally that's not for me.
You mentioned $25k for what you were looking at TW wise, ya I agree costly but all relative, what did that include?
It's going to be really tuff unless you get to touch, feel and listen in your own set-up but for sure something will fit your bill.
I was reading one of your threads above and you saying your current table is broken, that sucks.
The Artisan Fidelity units you mentioned look interesting also, price seems to be reasonable with all considered.
If you are looking at DD table you might want to look at "Kondo The Beat" by Steve Dobbin's otherwise known as member Vetterone. Not cheap again, I think arround $20K.
He is into all types of DD tables, into rebuilding and modding tables but this table is his pride and joy.
This is the table that peaks my interest, a possible second table for me down the road.
|
Dear Inna, No. I have never heard SME or Brinkmann, but the Balance (belt) or the Bardo (direct-drive) would be on my short list of tt's to buy, if I ever need another one. (What I mean to say is, "never" in my own home system.) I spent quite a few hours listening to The Beat at RMAF last October, in Steve Dobbins' room. Again, in isolation such an audition does not mean much (the ancillary equipment was also first rate), but I did fall in love a bit. I can only hope that my SP10 Mk3 in slate and cherry plinth sounds nearly as good. Sadly, I think the price for The Beat is more like $26K, last I heard. |
Thanks again for the balanced input Dev.
I'm also not sold on DD's....but would say that I have not heard one of the tweaked ones in my set up. And I'm not wanting to go the tweakers route for this purchase. Like you, if I want to play later then that's a different thing.
Right now I just want to hear some vinyl again!
The TW price quoted would be an AC-3, TW arm and suitable cart....$25 big ones...price is relative for sure. Thus my quote about the Lotus.
I have so many "holes" in my system....rack...wire...arm/cart...etc that putting all my dollars into a table is not the right way to go.
So...yes the TW or whatever is very relevant and maybe is in my future but my overall short term budget suggests that a sub $10k table with some good money put into a nice (Graham?) arm and cartridge is the way to go.
It's quite amazing how easily one gets sucked into this ;-)
My wife and I were totally ready to pull the trigger on the TW until we looked at each other and laughed.......
As you so perfectly said......"It's going to be really tuff unless you get to touch, feel and listen in your own set-up but for sure something will fit your bill." |
Mauidj,
I know the feeling, when I went to my bank to wire the payment for the BK I was asked what I was purchasing by this hot looking sweet young woman who was serving me, I said a turntable. She looked at me saying what's that, a bit of a discussion took place which then led to her to ask if I was married, I replied yup. I left and hopped into my AMG Roadster (which is my baby)and next to me was a new Bugatti Vynron which I really really like so to me it's all relative.
Just enjoy what ever it is, as you mentioned; "I just want to hear some vinyl again!"
Lewm, the "Beat" was $20K so if it's $26K now guess the extra $6k is due to setting up a dealer network. If that's the price now it's off my list.
|
Dev , Where exactly in my reponse did you read that I basically suggesting direct drive?
I ask because over on another thread you had trouble with someone else pointing out your ability to fully understanding what others have said, and they were right!
Now piss off you clueless arse. |
In_shore, possibly I read the end of your response incorrectly so many offer snyd remarks and when I read your responce mentioning the names Steve Dobbin's, Mike Lavigne, Albert Porter" I know these guys are all "DD" lovers and you were saying you agree with them, if I was incorrect I do apologize for such.
That being said instead of you correcting me of such you seem to feel it is appropriate to name call.
Your whole eight threads posted wow!
I won't lower my self to your standards.
|
In_shore,
Well said. You managed to sum up my thoughts in one succinct sentence.
Thank you. |
If you are considering TW you might also want to look at a Transrotor. I was firmly in the Oracel camp until I picked up a Transrotor Fat Bob a few months ago. A very superior bearing, even quieter in operation than the Oracle, which was the quietest I had heard to that point. You must get the magnetic bearing model, however, to achieve that silence. Excellent workmanship also. |
Dover,
your responces are the most rediculous specially with what you said about Oracle being in and out of business, talking about a manufacture of such and then putting your foot in your mouth responding saying your table was in the closet for 10 Years, oh my how do you spell looser. Your postings have no credibilty after making such statements.
You obviously being in agreement with In_shore's reply, thins only further demonstrates the type of individual you really are.
If I'm wrong I will gladly admit it.
In relation to In_shore he is far from being perfect himself and one to talk, all one needs to do is look at his own posting in relation to thread titled;
"Motor Controller effect on analog sound"
which TW product was being made in reference due to another thread getting off track and him babbling away and then being corrected politely and responds back saying;
05-31-11: In_shore
Dan_ed you are right.It was so early in the morning getting through my first cup of coffee and not paying attention to the responses of the op's question.
Just a galloping case of tunnel vision I guess.
Never the less I think it could be worth while to try out better motors. I do have a good candidate for this I think ,a Micro Seiki RX1500fvg.
Notice he still has to offer a snyd remark and suggest there is something wrong with the motors which is a farse and adds sugesting "Micro Seiki".
Others reading may not know but I know he is a Micro Seiki fan which is okay but his remarks are not called for, does he provide any proof for making such a bold statement? No
Just another snyd remark like I mentioned above. A few of you guys have problems with staying on track and on toppic and just seem to like to troll, have hidden adgendas and post negative postings in one way or another, seem to like to attack other members, either sugesting their gear is not any good etc.
You need to get a life, you are most likely just envy, never actually had the pce. in your own set up and are just enjoy being a idiote.
|
When someone is looking for a different Brand , there is some interesting information about Turntables, details in the technical papers from BASIS Audio.
These are no-nonsense products. Sometimes available 2.hand. |
Dev,
Please read the following comments from Stereophile :
Stereophile Posted: Aug 27, 2008 • Published: May 1, 1986 Anthony Cordesman
"Earlier Delphi motors were noisy or had quality-control problems. Some had audible long-term wow."
http://www.stereophile.com/content/oracle-delphi-turntable-mf-delphi-mkv-part-2
Michael Fremer -
"Between 1986 and the demise of the original Oracle company in 1994, another 6000 Mk.IIIs and Mk.IVs were built.
As you can see the original Oracle company closed in 1994, and many owners were left with no support. If you read the articles most of the spare parts were thrown away.
By the way
Rediculous is spelt ridiculous
Snyd is spelt snide
and the answer to your question "oh my how do you spell looser" is loser, with one "o".
|
Dover, you obviously missed that, my spelling that is.
Again with your snyd or as you put it snide remarks,you just can't resist which suggests what? would you like me to refer to your past threads and point out such? Ya I'll agree my spelling lacks but you are far from being perfect.
First you made a statements in relation to Oracle saying;
"but as soon as you put a piano piece on the wow became unlistenable"
That may be your opinion which is okay but as you can see by reading the OP's responce does not agree with you and was a insult made by you, so you making such a reply is what????
Then in another thread you go on further to sugest Oracle has been in and out of business a number of times.
As per member Manitunc he replies;
"if you beieve you are correct, then name at least two times that Oracle has been in and out of business. You would need at least two to say a "number" of times."
I still don't see a reply to that.
This posting isn't about you or I so lets not debate such, if you could only try stay on topic and if you have nothing nice to say just keep it to your self. |
Dev, Since I had decided to "make do" with my SP10 Mk3 in an elaborate plinth, I was not a serious contender for The Beat. Ergo I did not really make a lot of effort to determine its cost, so don't take my word for it. I do not in fact think that Steve has a "dealer network" for The Beat, since he himself is the dealer. The "real" price may well be only $20K, for all I know. Based on what I heard and the prices of similar level competition, that is not at all unreasonable. For example, the quote of $26K may have included a Reed tonearm and the Allnic Puritas cartridge, which sounded divine riding in the Reed on The Beat. You might want to speak to Mike Lavigne who owns one, if you are at all interested.
Don't tell me you own a Veyron (which really means "do tell me"). I saw only one in my life, parked next to a swank hotel in Geneva, Switzerland. It is far more beautiful and elegant in reality than in photos. |
Lewm, SP10 MK3 is a wonderful table and I would never suggest different but as you know it really does take a bit of effort and money to get the best out of it.
When you referred to the BEAT and mentioned you not being a serious contender, why?
My understanding is everything that Steve has learned from working with other tables in general he has transfered into making the Kondo The Beat table.
I have spoken with Mike several times and he is lovin his Beat table along with his other ones also.
As you know Steve being heavily into doing this along with others.
Reason I mentioned "DEALER" for the Beat was because of two reason's, the price you had mentioned if it was only for the table and I have also seen a ad in relation to it posted by member Dlanselm for his new company called "Almost Live Audio" here on Audiogon.
Yes I agree the Veyron must be seen in person to truly appreciate. |
Manitunc.
have you heard the Delphi MkVI?
I've read and chatted with Jacques of Oracle who says that the new bearing is a great improvement over the last one.
Glad you like your new TR .....always great to buy something and have it be all you want it to be. |
Dev,
"SP10 MK3 is a wonderful table and I would never suggest different but as you know it really does take a bit of effort and money to get the best out of it."
Yes, and I have spent both (effort and money). You may view a photo of the "finished" product in my system portfolio. A slate plinth 2.5 inches thick is bolted to a solid cherry and baltic birch base, to provide constrained damping. The Mk3 chassis is bolted through both sections, from below. Within the wood base is housed a large brass block. A threaded brass rod runs through the block to contact the underside of the bearing housing, a la Albert's plinths. The whole shebang sits on a carefully contrived suspension. The tonearm board is also made of slate, but I also have spares made of aluminum, and brass is planned. The Beat would be outside my budget, is all I meant to say. I prefer the fun of DIY in a perverse way.
By the way, the Mk3 was NOS; nevertheless I had it fully serviced by Bill Thalmann who also does Albert's tables. Bill found several leaky electrolytic capacitors in the power supply, despite or perhaps because of its virgin status. (Charging up an electrolytic periodically will extend its lifespan a bit, compared to its shelf life.) I am sure you would not leave your Veyron sitting around idle. |
What happened to the SME 20/3 discussion? Could we get back to the OP? I too would like to hear from others who own it or who have heard it and compared it to other tables at a similar price point. SME tables are being sold in relatively large numbers but are not often discussed in these forums. How do they compare to the competition, especially the DD tables? I own an SME 10 and am thinking of upgrading. |
Yeah, sorry. Got carried away. |
Mauidj,
You have mentioned several times the Raven AC3 . Another suggestion would be to buy the Raven AC1 and mount your current arm/cartridge on it. This keeps your initial cost down and allows you to do further upgrades over time without having to restart again. |
Peterayer, i went from a Model 10 to a Model 20/2 after 9 years with the 10. The upgrade was significant. Far more detail, less bass but it became tighter and far better defined, most of all though was the depth and feel to the music that comes through in a way that is only clear when you hear the one after the other. The 10 is very good, the 20 is excellent and worth the extra cost. As for the 20/3, well, i reckon you would just have to try and get a listen to one. |
The 20/3 is an updated version of the 20/2, which is no longer available new.
The 20/3 is 23 lbs heavier overall (63 vs. 40). The platter is 4 lbs heavier (14 vs 10). The rest of the weight increase is accounted for in the thicker chassis and subchassis.
The 30/2, in comparison, is 92 lbs with a 15 pound platter. This increased mass and solidity is evident in a comparison.
I have no comments or experience with the Oracle or Garrard.
Your chances of hearing the 20/3 before purchase may be slim to none, depending on where you live, and slim may have left town. |
Thanks to the last posters for getting this thread back on track...and returning civility.
The new 20/3 is a huge step forward in terms of specs. Getting closer to the 30/2 in every way..except price.
As the HiFi News reviewer said...this is the sweet spot financially in the range right now.
It seems to offer a huge bang for the bucks.
@ Dover...yes this is/was/who knows! the plan. Get the AC-1 use what I have then go from there.
Or....spend less on the table...20/3 or Oracle VI and get a really good arm and cart.
Later I can trade up the table but meanwhile have a very nice front end from the get go.
The Raven is still twice the price of the other tables and I have to fight hard to not over extend myself.
Damn it's so easy getting carried away with this stuff ;-)
I think the way forward has to be balanced and take into consideration the whole system which as I stated earlier is not exactly perfect in a couple of other areas. |
Mauidj:
I noted in your earlier response that you were a pianist. The Oracle MKVI is excellent with piano music(contrary to Dover's comment). In terms of sheer musicality the Oracle MKVI (especially with the Granite base the new bearing and Micro Vibration Stabilizer System) performs at a very high level with speed in the bass/midbass registers, quietude and resolution across the frequency spectrum that exceeds its price range. The SME 20/3 table is excellent also. Ultimately, if you don’t listen to a lot of Organ music (the more massive tables may have a smidgen of additional extension/solidarity in the lowest octave) the Oracle with Phantom II tonearm could prove very satisfying. At the end of the day it’s about diminishing returns: why would you trade in an Oracle VI or SME 20/3 for the Raven at a future date if you are happy with their performance? As mentioned by previous contributors to this thread, “opinions are dime a dozen”. Go with your own preference. |
Gmorris.
Sage advise indeed.
And I think your summation of the 2 tables is spot on from all the reviews and comments I have read.
I also agree that the trade up is probably unlikely. This is a more prudent path than buying the Raven now and waiting to be able to afford the better arm/cart combo....forever chasing my tail.
I also think I will be over the moon with a Delphi/Graham/good cartridge combo. I believe it will make great MUSIC.
Funny you should mention the granite base.
I was chatting with Jacques of Oracle who suggested I invest my money in a really good equipment rack/table platform before getting the granite base.
I've been offered a really great deal on a regular base Delphi so getting the granite will add about $3000 to the price tag. Plenty of money for a really effective stand I would think. My current Salamander stand is hardly stable and this investment should make a big difference system wide.
Ultimately I will of course go with my own preference...but it has been enlightening to read the comments and experiences of others before plonking down this not inconsiderable chunk of change. |
Mauidj,
I havent heard the Oracle Delphi VI. The opportunity to hear high end turntables in my ends at my front door, and mine are not at the highest end. I think that if I had a Delphi VI/Graham Phantom/Dyna XV1s combo I would probably stop right there. |
Wow...took the thought right out of my head mate.
The Dyna was right at the top of my list :-)
Sounds like a good combo eh! |
Wow! This thread really took on a life of its own. I re-read my 5/24 post, and it accurately reflects my experience with modded Oracle Delphi MK IV which I enjoyed for 15 years, as well as my 5-year experience with the SME 20/2 with a Graham Phantom I, and my recent experience with Albert Porter's Technics SP 10 MK IIIs with completely restored and upgraded electronics and his plinth, a Micro Seiki CU-180 mat, TTSuperClamp and an SME 312S arm for the past month.
I have not heard the new Oracle MK VI, but like most new models from high end manufacturers, I would be surprised if it was not noticeably better than my modded MK IV.
My experience has been that the Oracle with ET-2 arm was way better than anything I had before, especially after power supply, Goldmund mat, isolation feet mods, and the SME 20/2 with Graham Phantom I is noticeably better than my MK IV with ET-2. And my Technics-Porter SP 10 MK3 is way better in every way than any TT or other source component I have ever heard before. I have found that everything Albert said about it is right on, except it was still better than I imagined it would be. It is the quietest TT I have heard (contributes to great imaging, soundstage and low level detail) and has the best PRAT (likely due to its speed accuracy when playing an LP), dynamics and bass I have ever heard.
The great thing about the SME tables is they are truly setup and forget tables (a drop or 2 of oil once a year and a new belt every 4 or 5 years is about all the maintenance it needs), especially with a Graham Phantom, which is also setup and forget.
Hope this helps. |
I would indeed love to hear the albert porter and dobbins designs .
If i was in the market now i would probably buy the brinkman anance with fidelity research fr 64 fx .
beautiful table second hand on audiomarkt |
I'd never heard of Albert Porter until I started this thread.
So who is he and how comes so many people hang on his every word and action?
Albert bought one of these so it's got to be the best in the world kind of thing.
I'm not being critical...just puzzled by the evangelical aura surrounding his name. |
Here is only what I've read on these threads:
Albert's former Walker TT was found wanting in comparison to a Technics SP10 Mark II and then Mark III by him and a listening panel of his friends. He sold the former and started refining a plinth for the SP10's. My friend just bought one of his Panzerholtz plinths for his SP10 IIa, though I haven't heard it yet. I have heard the Walker under good show conditions and the system in which it was the source sounded fantastic, so I imagine the SP10's in Albert's plinth must sound pretty good. He does like the SME 312S arm with an AirTight PC1 Supreme cartridge.
By all accounts, this is a very good analog front end and it is relatively affordable, (if you can find one) by today's top tier standards.
I would try to hear options in your own system, but I realize that may be tough and you might have to buy on faith/reviews. I bought my SME 10 without first hearing it and it has been a wonderful table, though I'm sure there are much better ones out there. |
Albert is able to speak for himself. He is a successful professional photographer who has a long history of interest in truly high end audio, as an end-user. I believe you can see his current system described and listed on this site. A few years ago he made a splash here by his decision to replace his Walker turntable with a Technics SP10 MkII in a wood plinth. He now manufactures and sells plinths for the Mk II and Mk 3, and it seems that he can also source MkII's and Mk3's and have them cosmetically restored and serviced a priori in order to deliver a complete package, in some cases. (Both are scarce, and I don't know where Albert finds them.) He is also an Allnic dealer. Basically, he is a good guy who has passion for this hobby and has turned it into a bit of a business. He is no one's guru, as far as I know. Superb photographer, too. |
No slight intended. His name came up several times here and I'd never heard of him that's all. But his opinions do get quoted a lot so I was curious. |
Actually, I think it was his single action (rather than any stated opinions) of preferring the Technics to the Walker in his home system that gained Albert a lot of notoriety here. I love my SP1 Mk3, but I do not assume that it would be superior to the Walker table in my own system. I would have to hear that to believe it. I have heard the Walker in other systems and it is remarkably good, too. |
Oh OK. Thanks for the enlightenment. Yep I would not have an opinion on that. Never heard an SP10. But that is quite something if it can outperform a Walker. I would like to hear one if that's the case.
Just read some of the threads on the subject...interesting indeed.
Is the Mk3 much better than the 2 as I see those around for not much money? |
I never heard either though read some. It appears that there are not many tables that can outperform correctly set-up Walker in any system. It would be fun to compare that Technics to it.
Albert is also a dealer for Purist Audio, if I am right. |
cipher,
When you are ready to sell that Oracle IV, let me know. I have a nice home ready for it. |
Mauidj, Well, you asked, so I will answer. The Mk2 and Mk3 are quite different from each other. I know it sounds like the Mk3 would be just a later version of the Mk2, but that is not so. Both tables were marketed at the same time, although the Mk3 came along last, at the end of the "vinyl era" and dawn of "perfect sound forever". To start with, the Mk3 has the highest torque motor ever used in a turntable sold to the public, with the possible exception of the Denon DP100, which was a Japan-only product for Denon. The Mk3 has more elaborate motor control than the Mk2 and a 22-lb platter, also very heavy for a direct-drive. It also has all its electronics housed in an outboard chassis; the main chassis supports only the huge motor and the platter.
The Mk2 has an 8-lb platter and a less powerful motor, notwithstanding the fact that it is also a great turntable when properly set up. The outboard Power Supply feeds three regulated voltages to the remainder of the electronics, which are onboard the main chassis along with the motor. The Mk2 is right up there with or ahead of any other vintage direct-drive of that day, was considered a high end product, got raves from HP, etc.
In their day, the Mk3 cost about twice as much as the Mk2 (about $2800 vs about $1500). Ergo, fewer Mk3s were sold, and they are quite a bit more rare than the Mk2. Also, those that own a Mk3 tend to keep it, which adds to the rarity of finding one for sale. Many Mk2s and Mk3s were used and abused by radio station DJ's because of their incredible rapid start and stop capabilities and their durability. |
Lewm...thanks for the info.
I corresponded briefly with Albert and he stunned me with the price of the mk3's.
Wow that's big money for an old table sans arm and plinth.
Sure would love to hear what they can do when set up right....a la Porter. |
I have not the foggiest idea for what Albert charges if you buy from him a restored Mk3 in a custom plinth. Probably "a lot". But there is more than one way to arrive at your desired endpoint, if that is what you desire. (Meaning you can watch eBay, etc, until you find your own Mk3, have Bill Thalmann work on it, source a plinth on your own, etc.) In taking the worry out of it, Albert is performing a service and understandably wants to be compensated. But please don't refer to it as an "old table". It would be good as new, and nothing new is built like that. Nothing below around $100K, that is. |
So now we know that this properly restored and modified Technics is the best turntable in existence, at least for around $100K. This is most likely the biggest bullshit I've ever heard here.
Mauidj, I suggest you just buy the SME you were thinking about and forget about what might or might not be better than it. You can easily drive youself crazy with this stuff.
And don't trust other people's ears; they are always different and often worse than yours. |
Inna.
Yep that had me scratching my head too. $100k! Is any turntable worth that much money? Let me see...new Porsche 911....or record player without arm or cartridge...decisions decision!
No worries.....Not going to trust others ears but was looking for a general consensus on basic sound, build etc.
Which I believe I now have.
Actually it's no different to what I concluded before I started my thread just from reading the reviews.
Now it's just down to deciding the most important aspects of the "sound" that I and my system will be happiest with.
In any case I'm pretty sure I won't be unhappy with either of my main contenders.
I'm being offered both at great discounts so if I really don't like it I should be able to sell on without loss. |
Right. Also, though not often mentioned and hard to guess, but there should be a kind of match between your analog front end and the rest of the system. You have Krell and B&W ? I would speculate that SME would give you more resolution and dynamics and Oracle a little more of musicality. Assuming the same cartridge of course.
Tell us when you finally get something how it sounds.
For $100k I would get a piece of an island not table or Porsche. |
Dear Inna,
Keep your shirt on. What I said was with regard to quality of construction. Period. I do not now, nor have I ever said it was "the best" turntable in existence for under $100K. I have not even had mine long enough to form an opinion, except to say it is very good. Why does this innocent discussion make you so angry that you feel the need to use words like "bullshit"?
I only make judgements based on what I hear in my house on my system, and only after many weeks or months of listening. Therefore I will never be in a position to say that anything is the best anything. Please do not take this as an apology, by the way. |
