small companies making today's best products
Mrtennis, very good thread with well made points. I assembled my system somewhat recently and am extremely happy with all components. I will investigate some other cabling options in time. My small company choices are from Wavelength and Doshi. I don't see (hear) reason to EVER change those! Extremely well designed and executed! |
I've always brought home possible suspects from my local salon and keep them until I'm satisfied there fully run in, usually a few weeks. Then I'll do some research, including chatting up the designer when possible and reading reviews to see if there ramblings concur with my thoughts. Getting a few audiophile friends over to scrutinize the equipment and price is the final step. My dealer tells me I average trying six components in store and at home before a purchase. I must be a bloody pain in the arse. |
o think my intention of this thread is to imply that small companies that sell direct have an advantage over others which have a dealer network. companies which don't have a dealer network don't have to contend with the problems which dealers may present to a manufacturer. they may not have to be concerned with the need for a review, they may offer an audition for a period of time, only requiring the potential purchaser to pay for shipping. dealers may or may not offer audition periods, other than some stores which will lend a component for a day or two. in addition,it is nice to be able to chat with the designer and ask questions which many dealers do not or cannot answer |
For me it is hard to what are big companies and what are the small ones beside the obvious ones like Sony, Marantz etc. What might be a small brand in one place can be big somewhere else. For example VanderSteen speakers a know brand in the US if I have to believe this forum. But where I live I doubt you will find 1 pair of vandersteen speakers amnong 1000 audiophiles. Also I think Symphonic Line is a big name in Germany but beyond Germany it is mutch more a niche brand. I know brand name =/ company size but still. Anyone here knows about Metrum DAC's? |
Tekton, Zu and Decware are three I have come across recently that I would like to experience. Also a fan of the Audiokinesis approach to things, though have not actually heard. THough also have not heard, gotta give a plug for HHR Exotic Speakers as well for forging ahead with the Walsh speaker design and keeping costs manageable. Did I forget OHM? Here's to John Strohbeen as well! Audio Research....still the cornerstone of tube amp products? mhdt systems: very good DACs for not much cost. Bel Canto: I like this company's products and service a lot though there is tons of competition. Dynaudio are they too big? A gold standard in modern speaker design I would say. How about Triangle? Not up with their more recent products too much but like what I have heard. Manley and Rogue....I like these two companies products that I have heard though I liked Manley's old price structure a lot better than the new. Magnepan, not too big to mention, right? Haven't heard Atmasphere but I suspect Ralph's tube amp products are quite exceptional. I suspect Classic Audio Loudspeakers may have some of the better sounding speakers out there especially with use of their field coil drivers. I heard charming and reasonably priced large horns from The Cathedral Speaker company a while back that caught the ears of many at a show in addition to myself. I tend to levitate towards products that are unique or innovative relative to the norm. There are many small companies making good stuff out there. |
the purpose of designing to satisify the customer is to produce a product which is consistent with the tastes and preferences of the buyer. since no product is perfect, the idea is to build a component with a certain sonic signature. those who think components should be as accurate as possible, need not consider this idea. it's like telling a chef how you would like him to prepare a dish. very few will do this. since all do not have the same idea as to what a stereo system should sound like, customizing a component as like getting a suit made for you. |
Wait, have we gotten this far without an Atma-sphere mention? What a great company and wonderful amps. They are there for customers with questions (especially nice since OTL amps are a bit of a different beast) and offer a number of options for upgrading their amps (power supply upgrades, capacitor upgrades, reduced gain, etc). Hats off to Ralph and everyone working with him. A real bonus for my amp choice. Nice that an amp purchase can also come with this type of relationship with a manufacturer. |
. http://www.jeffreywjackson.com/ Jeffrey Jackson builds custom amps and horn speakers that sound wonderful. I believe he'll work with you to design and build just about anything you want. He was on the team that developed the field coil Lowthers that Lowther-America is now selling. . |
changing op amps, resistors, caps and wiring can significantly alter the sound, same with the connectors. suppose you want to create a certain flavor, the big companies would not change the parts in their designs. i think there is another company that will design an tube amp for you , i think the name is nightshade. he makes a dac called the lampizator. |
Mrtennis - which companies have you approached to "modify their designs" for you? I'm not talking about upgraded caps and such, which some of the smaller companies offer, but an actual modified design? Did you supply the specs for the circuit? Yes, I'm sure some amp builders will do anything you ask for, so long as you don't want to keep sending it back if you don't like it. |
I have learned that getting involved in custom work is a good way to waste a lot of time. No one who has come to me with their own custom design in mind has ever gone through with placing an order after many hours of research and modelling and revision and phone consultation on my part. On the other hand, most people who come to me with a specific problem, and let me come up with the solution, have gone through with it when my proposed solution was something custom. I think many of those in the first category are DIYers posing as serious customers. Duke |
I would certainly want to have a custom LAMM. What would I want to improve on stock? I would discuss it with Vladimir. Perhaps best to my taste tubes and even better some other parts, a bit more current and power, something else. More expensive? Sure. But if I am prepared to pay this kind of money additional $10k or so should not be a problem. And I would probably keep that thing forever. |
Why is it that audiophiles are perpetually striving to define and pidgeonhole everything in their midst. Company size has no certain impact on value or reliability. My wooden horns have no moving parts and will likely prove to be heirlooms but they come from a one man shop with thirty plus years of experience designing these things. By the same token, I have a $78 Sony HD tuner that works well enough but I suspect any day could be its last, even though it has never given me any trouble. OPPO is a company that might confuse these arguments. Jeff Rowland makes what are probably the best constructed products on the market out of a 5 person factory. His name is certainly big but the operation is not. Would anyone here shy away from Rowland gear because the company is small? I think, in truth, that you have to consider every company and every product on its own merit and avoid the childish tendency to make categorical rules of acceptability. Amen! |
the advantage of some small companies is that they are willing to modify their designs. try asking mcintosh, audio research or cj if they will replace a capacitor, or change the tube compliment. small companies may be more oriented to pleasing the customer by altering the design slightly to suit the nedds and taste of their customers. |
I suspect if a reliable and comprehensive study were conducted by experts between small and larger high end audio companies, the results would be a draw in terms of which can deliver the best sounding solution and larger companies would win statistically in terms of providing higher quality and value overall and offering lower risk overall for most. The caveat would be I think if small companies from the far east, like mhdt for example, were properly included, teh smaller companies would do better in terms of value but still present a risk in that finding the good smaller companies can be a challenge to find reliably. Also I think results might skew somewhat more back towards smaller vendors if the scope were limited to those vendors who break the norm and deliver solutions geared around high efficiency speakers and smaller amps, often tube based. |
Is'nt it true that there are good and bad examples in all levels of this industry, small manufacturers, middling and large and Dealers. I think certain areas are easier for small manufacturers to compete, cartridges, speakers and cables come to mind. Here, development is often painstaking trial and error of different components, looking for the best combination. Electronics are more difficult but possible for one man and his dog outfits, but there are exceptions, Berning, Tom Evans come to mind. Large companies can provide excellent after sales, CJ, Macintosh and ARC seem in this category. What are the Pros and cons: Small companies: May sell direct on sale or return, lowering cost Probably waste less money on marketing etc, lowering cost. More responsive to my needs, can build to my requirements. Thinking Of Daedalus Speakers here, each pair built to your needs Avoids dealers, big plus for me. I know excellent ones, but I feel pressured to buy and that I'm wasting there time if I don't. just me I know. Personal service from the boss with queries, tends in general to be better after sales than large companies Cons: May go out of business, so no after sales support, but so can large companies. May be more difficult to sell second hand, lack of brand awareness. Component cost higher, cheaper to buy 1000 capacitors than 10 I am sure there are many more possibilities. In general I like the idea of encouraging start ups, helping the little guy, if you like. |
Best reason to "buy small": guys like Duke, designer-manufacturers who will take the time to work with you. Since everybody agrees that both the corporate and cottage models can produce good kit, why not work with an actual person? I've never spoken with Duke, but he's unfailingly humble and helpful on these boards, something more people might try. He also makes good speakers. He won't be here forever, but as Raquel so effectively shouted in the parking lot, neither will the corporate entities. Neither will the dealers. We won't, either! J |
A couple of comments: 1) The wisdom of buying big-name products. The history of high-end audio is mostly a story of well-known brands that are now dead, or, to the extent they still exist, are merely trademarks purchased out of liquidation proceedings that now have nothing to do with the companies/people that gave those trademarks their reputations, or, those brands have been sold so many times and the current iterations are so far removed from the glory years that they are now completely different companies. It doesn't always play out this way, but ... CounterPoint? Toast. Bozak? Sold to Chinese buyers years ago. Advent? I think the mark is now with Jensen, and current products have nothing to do with legendary products like the Advent Loudspeaker. Advent was started by Henry Kloss (... who left KLH to start Advent). Mark Levinson? The man Mark Levinson was pushed out of Madrigal, founded Cello, left Cello, founded Red Rose, left Red Rose, and then was left by now ex-wife and Sex and the City star Kim Cattral. The company Mark Levinson was sold to Harmon seven years ago, at which point many people, including key R&D people, in the Orange, Connecticut, facility were fired and the remainder transferred to Harmon's facilities in Massachusetts, and you are invited to peruse the threads here to see what has become of Levinson now (one clue - consumer audio makes up a tiny part of Harmon's revenues). Phase Linear? Sold to Pioneer by Bob Carver in the 70's, and sold by Pioneer to Recoton - now it's a car audio line. Bob Carver founded Carver, until he founded Sunfire (not sure what became of "Carver" the brand). Krell? Sold to a private equity firm (that means it will be sold again in four to five years when the P.E. firm "exits"). After litigation with Krell founder Dan D'Agostino resulted in D'Agostino's definitive exit from Krell, D'Agostino has introduced an eponymously named amplifier. Audio Research and Sonus Faber? Both very recently sold to an Italian private equity firm (maybe Bill Johnson and Franco Serblin have consulting agreements and will be around for awhile, but Johnson is 150 years old and Serblin must now be rich, so don't count on it). McIntosh? Sold to Clarion in 1990. Then sold again in 2003. At least the stuff is still made in Binghampton. Yeah, the big, well-known hi-fi companies are the epitome of reliability. 2) AudioOracle vs. Hobbyists. He is right to complain about hobbyists who provide uninformed opinions on Audiogon. Asking a question on this forum is like screaming out a question in the mall parking lot - it's a miracle that serious industry people like Ralph Karstens bother to post here. I respectfully beg to differ with Brother MrTennis' statement that "configuring quality stereo systems is no great mystery and does not require a degree from harvard". It is a great mystery and any graduate of Harvard that would like to help is damn welcome. 3) Buying reliable gear. It's counter-intuitive to the uninformed, but if you're really worried about buying something that will hold up and be "fixable" years from now, buy tube gear, and preferably, tube gear that is point-to-point wired. The circuit in tube equipment is the tubes, and when you retube tube equipment, you basically have a new piece of equipment. Most tube gear can be figured out by a good tech after the manufacturer is no longer around, even where there's no schematic, and if the piece is point-to-point wired (i.e., does not use circuit boards), then an untrained monkey can probably fix it. Solid-state amps sometimes use output transistors that go out of production and that therefore can't be replaced when they break - these amps have to be scrapped. This won't happen with much tube gear, as many use the same pentodes and small-signal tubes that are used in the million or so tubed guitar amps sold every year. Tubes are user-replaceable, while solid-state gear has to be shipped off for a tech to replace. |
many "big" companies ship containers full of product that they know will have a 15 percent failure rate. if anyone thinks there is security in this go buy some mass produced crap and hang onto your warranty papers linus. or go to a local warranty/repair shop and see the mountain of mass produced crap not worth fixing in the dumpster. many products made by small companies work, work for a long time and are fixeable. they also increase in value. |
Interesting thread to say the least! I've owned equipment built by larger manufacturers and expensive equipment built by one person operations. I've bought from dealers and I've bought direct. I've never bought from Audiogon but wouldn't rule it out in the future. As to buying from larger versus smaller companies, there are a lot of ways to get to heaven. I personally prefer smaller handmade items for the reasons Duke explained above. My one addition to Duke's excellent post is that IMO, the biggest advantage the small manufacturer has is at the extremes of price and performance. Trying to compete with the big boys in terms of performance, fit and finish in the middle range of the high end is a much tougher gig. However, I think that for many (?most) audiophiles, larger manufacturers are better bet. On the subject of audio dealers, that's really a local issue. My approach is to always purchase from the local guy provided his equipment provides similar performance and reasonably similar price. At times, I have paid a higher cost to support a local audio dealer. Here in Seattle, Tim Ratcliffe at Experience Audio is terrific. Jeff Catalano of High Water Sound is another example of an exemplary audio dealer who works to develop a relationship. IMO, the industry is taking the wrong cues from the disinter-mediation brought about by the internet. Yes, it does lead to some audiophiles to chase price, but unethical dealers violated sales territories long before the internet existed. Rather than bringing the necessary value added to cultivate the fledgling audiophile, most dealers have a 'transactional' model. The industry needs to spend more energy developing enthusiastic audiophiles and music lovers. I do believe that for audio dealerships to remain relevant beyond home theater installations, they need to reinvent their model. In part that involves an explanation of what value the audio dealer will bring to a long term customer relationship that justifies paying a higher price than can be found from an unknown entity on the internet. I understand this won't prevent some potential customers from abusing the audio dealer's time nor will it prevent others from 'graduating' from the dealership model to pursue smaller, esoteric gear. I am concerned that absent a significant change, specialty hi-end brick and mortar stores are doomed. End of rant... |
I'd like to comment on one thing Elizabeth said: "[C]learly the small company is a risk for a 'small pockets' buyer. If one is spending money they cannot afford to just burn, then it behooves them to buy a product they can depend on." Now I can't speak for all small companies, but obviously I share some of the same mentality. I use parts that have several times the power handling typically "needed" for the application. And in my home audio speakers, I use only off-the-shelf parts. So if I hit a moose on the way home from the bar the same night that you blow your tweeters, you can get on the internet and find replacements in five minutes. I don't "pot" my crossovers, so if a crossover component does fail, it's easy for your technician to find it and replace it. In six years of building home audio speakers, I've had zero component failures. Well there was that pair of scortched crossover boards after a very heavy Pantera session (I use much bigger resistors now), and the time I failed to screw down a connection tightly (d'oh!), but neither was an actual component failure. And if anyone were to have something fail, they'd get to talk to the company president/engineer/service department all at once... assuming he and the moose hadn't had their rendezvous with fate yet. Or worst-case scenario, there's nothing in there a local technician can't diagnose and replace. A big company watching the bottom line may choose to specify parts that cut it a lot closer, as far as durability and longevity. I don't have the time & resources to figure out which part will be just barely adequate but allow me to save thousands in the long run. And since I don't have a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders, nor a controlling board of directors who can fire me for it, it's my call. A big company can weather the storm of putting one or two unreliable products out there. We little guys cannot. And very few of us do. Back to the small-pockets buyer. Actually, the hard-core audiophile who doesn't have the big bucks is the one most likely to put in the due diligence that can lead him to one of these small companies you've never heard of. Most of us are doing something better than the big guys, and if that something coincides with the person's priorities, the result can be more cost-effective. Imho, ime, ymmv, and yes I have a dog in this fight! Duke |
let me add another issue here. the advantage of a company, usually small, that does not depend upon the income generated from the sale of his products as the sole source of his income to pay his bills, is that he can take his time, search for the best parts and achieve the sound that pleases himself firts before placing it up for sale. i'd say quality control is better, though it may seem counter intuitive and the deisgner is usually a "craftsman" and takes great "pains" and pride in his effort, producing on a smaller scale and not having to please reviewers, necessarily, can rely on other audiophiles for their opinion before releasing the product. i think, with the exception of ps audio and vtl, which may not be considered large companies, but do rely on sales as their sole source of income, i find the smaller companies producing higher quality products. they are not bound by as many constraints as larger ones and can hand select those parts which may be more expensive and sound "better", without worrying about the bean counters who would tell thenm that using costly parts will multiply the retail price to a level greatly exceeding the price associated with an inferior part. why are there so many modification companies out there ? mainly because some designer chose less than ideal op amps, capacitors, wire and other parts. as i previously mentioned gordon rankin of wavelebgth has produced many fine products, that can compete with any of the larger companies. admittedly his amplifiers are not high powered , but he along with david berning and the designer of the aria amps, the previous owner of counterpoint, mike elliot, are excellenet examples of small companies . many of these companies can customize their products bto the taste of their customers. lartge companies usually do not do that. decware is another example of a fine small company. as far as audio dealers. i will contest any dealer to configure a stereo system that i will like better than one i configure myself and put money on my stereo system over his/hers. a dealer is limited by its product line, whereas i am not. i have a greater variety of products from which to select and i will always be more in tune with what i like than any audio dealer. no audio dealer can get into the mind of a consumer. he can only be guided by what the consumer tells him or her. configuring quality stereo systems is no great mystery and does not require a degree from harvard. i'm not saying dealers are ignorant, but no dealer should have the attitude that they know better than their customers. that attitude is the surest way not to be successful. taste is subjective and dealers should not inssult the preferences of customers. they should be subject to the wishes of the customer, not the other way around. mr. dealer, are you up to the chanllenge ? |
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Well the best example I can think of a small company making todays best products is The David Berning Company in business since 1974. One might think that a company that has the owner's name is making a personal testament to the quality of the product he sells. David Berning takes it one step further, he designs and builds every single product he has ever sold himself, one at a time. Legendary reliability, cutting edge design and performance, efficient and user friendly designs, esoteric but simple at the same time. I can't think of a better example than this all hype aside. This guy is one of the true originals of high end audio. |
"The larger companies I prefer once were small companies" Now where would those companies be if the ones that did support their products from the begining be if they chose to all have Elizabeths Altitude on this and not support them till they were a large brand name. They would not be here to enjoy now. To widen the scope of thought if many of these "once were small companies" and the innovative products they produced never materialized then with that loss would be the loss of all the inspiration it gave the ones that followed. I agree that waiting till you feel safe that the brand has become large enough to ease ones fears may be prudent, but it certainly cannot support the very thing your waiting for if everyone shared that point of view. That is where I see the insult. Let everyone else take the early adoption of the little guy, wait until they support and make a company grow then critisize the very people who support and build the new crop of little guys. It should also be noted that some of the better gear out there came from small guys starting out who worked for years with the big companies and struck out on their own knowing they could build and design better products and did so with great success as the little guy. It is not ones choice of equipment that is insulting at all. That is ones personal choice for their own reasons. However it cannot be taken as anything less than insulting with generalizations that the little guy lacks innovation and are technologically inferior. Then again maybe it is more blinded thought than insightfull insult or critisizm. The first two paragraphs in response to Inna confirm you know why these larger companies you choose are here. Then a statement like "allow someone on the edge of buying a tinkers dream to think:"maybe i'll buy a real product with some actual engineering behind it that I can depend on the maker servicing it next year...in stead of hoping a few word of mouth mentions in posts where no one can tell if it is just an info-mercial." Makes little sense thus the insult label. Your choice for bryston gear certainly is no issue here. Properly matched with the right gear just like any other gear has to be, they deliver just like a hundred others will. You need to get out more now that its getting nicer and sit in the sun. Might clear up that nose grease problem. Cheers |
I sure didn't get that Elizabeth was anti-dealer. I do applaud her posts. Elizabeth makes good points about longevity as far as being able to get equipment fixed, replacement parts etc from a well established company. The fact a company is around for a long time IS NOT evidence that the company is bad or makes bad products, quite the contrary. To each their own. Fail to see how she insulted anyone, kind of the other way around. |
Dear Mr. Dealer. Unfortunately for many of us we have no access to a dealer even if we wanted to use one. I recently moved from Middle TN and just a few years ago was within a few hours of some good dealers in Memphis, Knoxville, and Nashville. Last I checked they were all closed. When markets this large can no longer support a dealer then the game is almost over. Too many like me simply can't justify buying new when we can get it for half off barely used at places like this. Sad reality for you, but a reality none the less. . |
large companies gave/pushed quad 4 channel, 8 tracks, elcassette, laserdisc, minidiscs, cds, sacds, hdcds,dvd/bluray 2.1 thru 11.1, various video formats, vhs vs beta vcrs, tiny satellite speakers theatre in a box systems, they gave no support to audio stores because circuit city type stores was the future. i could go on because i,m sure i left something out. to say i want gear from a big company because they will be around in 10 years is a reach. i want my gear from companies that make a value added product that perform. and just to be argumentative...there arn't many "big" companies on the lists on this thread or we would all get rid of our gear and buy sony, denon, hitachi,bose,panasonic etc. |
Small companies are for well educated adventurers with deep pockets. You never know what you might find, good or bad! Larger established companies are safer if you want to hedge your bets and go with something that is more established and well known. Truly innovative products generally start small, gain acceptance over time, and usually also become more affordable. You can be an early adapter (high risk, potentially high reward today) or a fast follower (low risk, also high reward, but you may have to wait a bit for the latest and greatest to establish itself better). I'd advise against rookies being an early adapter...very high risk compared to likelihood of reward. You better really know what you are doing before testing these waters.... Most people will be better off as fast followers purchasing good products with a larger following from more well established vendors. Audiogon can be a dangerous place to be if you allow your need for the greatest immediate gratification be your guide without being well versed in what goes into achieving your goals. You are at greater risk of spending a lot of money for little or no practical advantage than you might be going straight to a trustworthy and knowledgeable dealer who knows what they are doing. If you must test the waters with a smaller companies product, I recommend doing it with less expensive products that appear to be good values to minimize risk. Never jump into the deep waters if cannot swim. Rookies should avoid small companies touting the cost is no object best, unless you just want to throw money at the problem and nothing else matters. |
Regarding small vs. large companies and product quality - it depends upon the type of product and the number of products produced. I can conceive of a person in their garage designing and making a near state of the art loudspeaker. It would be exponentially harder for that same person to do a 100 unit production run of that speaker. Quality control, crating and shipping cost, marketing and customer/dealer service would overwhelm a single person operation. I don't imagine that a truly small manufacturer could make a SOTA CD player or even a D/A without the extensive use of off the shelf components. It's here that larger companies can afford the R&D costs that would sink a smaller entity. But even then, mid-sized companies such as MSB can consistently produce top quality products. Most preamps and amps don't necessarily require sophisticated electronics and small companies can be as good as or even better than larger ones. The larger company could be more efficient and offer a better dollar value, but the small company could readily make a better sounding product. Personally, I tend to lean towards larger companies because I want the company to be around ten years from now. Size is not a guarantee, but it does shift the odds. Above in this thread someone compared Bryston to Lamm. If a key player at Bryston were to disappear, Bryston would still continue to operate. I'm not sure that can be said of Lamm. I know some people swear but the small company as somehow morally superior to larger businesses. Even if there were some truth in that assertion, at some point you have to draw a line for practicality. I find it inconceivable that anyone participating in this thread uses a "boutique" cellphone custom designed and made by a one/two man operation in their garage. |
I missed that one! Anywho... I imagine there is an unknown percentage here that just likes to keep trying different equipment, and not out of dissatisfaction. Tho, some may never be happy, period. In my case, not being ready to buy for some time, gave me an opportunity to investigate (read) many different options. I knew what I wanted when my time came to purchase. Now I'm VERY (!) happy just investigating many music options! A satisfying benefit of being a dealer would be in making VERY HAPPY costumers! |
