i think the audio research, conrad johnson, rolamd, mcintosh, monster cable, esoteric, etc., are superseded in sound quality by many small independent companies which operate direct to the consumer.
most of the comments praising components of different types seem to mention small companies, who do not have dealer networks. why ?
perhaps innovation with out marketing or other constraints enables creativity and thinking outside the box to flourish.
when i consider my own system, i own cables from small companies, digital components from a medium sized and well known company, and an amplifier from a well known company as well as another amp and preamp designed by a retired professor from canada.
Dear Elizabeth, I got from your answer, you don't like dealers. !
Hmmm, I didn't get that at all. The only time she mentioned dealers was to thank one for chiming in. Where were you getting that she was criticizing dealers?
FWIW, with almost 30 years in this hobby my experience of dealers is a mixed bag. I've met as many good ones who know of what they are talking, as I have ones whose opinions I did not respect nor agree with, and some real a$$hats as well (fortunately few and far between, but they are out there, even among the most prominent dealers). Just like the variety of folks posting here on Audiogon - I agree with you there to some degree - you really need to ferret out those who aren't talking from very little or no experience, and or just blowing smoke. I do imagine that it's very frustrating being a dealer and having to deal with such a unique (being kind) bunch of characters as audiophiles. I suppose there are also rewards as well (one would hope so anyway). Good dealers may indeed be choosing components on the basis of how well they work together to offer their clients what they think performs best to their ears. But as we regularly see, different strokes for different folks - what sounds good to you, may not be my choice. If there were one single set of best components all dealers would be carrying the same stuff. The fact is there is any infinite number of permutations one can arrive at with all that's out there and none are quite the same. No one has a monopoly on the right answers, but it's certainly nice to have a good guide. That could be a dealer, a manufacturer, a friend, or someone offering suggestions here. The opposite could just as well be true for any of those resources.
Dear Elizabeth, I got from your answer, you don't like dealers. !
The fact that most of the guys on Audiogon, are ever changing equipment striving to get a good sounding system makes me disgusted with the bargain mentality that values price over knowledge and experience.
I have been in this business for over 25 years and I have sold thousands of components and assembled 100's of systems, to think that a hobbyist knows more than a good dealer is laughable.
The idea is to get off the equipment roller coaster and enjoy music! To that effect the hostility engendered against dealers on this site is a sad state of affairs, there are many good, caring, and helpful dealers that provide a real service a demonstration facility and the knowledge and experience to actually make someone's assembled bunch of stuff really work cohesively!
The problem with Audiogon is that it encourages this flea market mindset, instead of encouraging many users to seek the assistance of professional people that can really help them in their quest to make a real satisfying musical experience in their home.
Are there bad dealers yes, I used to work for SBS in the City where what the customer actually wanted came after profitability or moving what was in stock, with that said, there were a few great salespeople there.
When I started in the industry as a profession in 1989 there was a bond between the customer and the dealer, the dealer was their guide, and provided a real service.
What pisses me off mostly about Audiogon is that most of the posters have limited experience and many suggestions they make are wrong or laughable at best, I have read some excellent suggestions from some members that were right on the money, but the often dismissive and sometimes hostile comments directed at dealers is stupid.
How does a dealer know what he knows, why does he or she advocate the products they have, I would bet for most dealers it is the positive experiences that they have had in direct comparison to other products that they sell have forged their opinions and product lines, for most dealers, they have to purchase their equipment which puts them in the same boat as their prospective clients, we are both purchasers. I don't know of too many people who purchase stuff they themselves don't like.
If I was in it "just for the money" I would be selling loudspeakers from a certain company which makes very expensive and very particular loudspeakers which have come on very strongly over the last few years, after evaluating said product, I passed over it as I didn't think that this $25k loudspeaker was worth the money, I watched SBS pick up the line and make a mint with it!
The point I am making is that most dealers are purchasers just like their clients and as so they advocate the products they believe in and what sounds the best to them.
So instead of just thinking oh that is a dealer and he or she is just trying to "sell me stuff" think again, maybe that dealer is offering advice based on direct experience.
As a dealer, I am bared from selling many products across the States, and I encourage local patronage.
So next time you read a dealers post, and are dismissive think maybe this guy has walked the same path in different shoes.
I once talked to a guy who was looking to swap amps at a great expense when all he needed was a few grand in footers and tuning gear to get the results he wanted, no one who posted suggested that, it was equipment, equipment, equipment, not one word on tuning, and folks what makes magic isn't just gear it is the meticulous setup behind that gear, and for the record that guy never called me back or bought anything!
Elizabeth, whatever you say is OK with me. You spent $12k on Bryston? You could've got used LAMMs instead. As I wrote once in another thread you don't allow youself to have the best possible sound for the same or even less money. Anyway I appreciate your direct response to me. Isn't it a time for "Bitches Brew" ?
Large or small, I would trade off a small amount of sound quality for superior build quality, long product life, good resale reputation, good dealer network, and reliable service (that hopefully will never be needed). Of course, it very hard to judge some of these when dealing with the new and small unknowns.I try to investigate and judge if a company is really doing anything original and worthwhile, or just another "me too"? I also look to see how much of the product they really build, or are they just another marketeer or importer? I too have noticed, over the years, that HE manufactures tend to have a life cycle that is somewhat typical, with the best products usally a few models before they sell off to someone like Harman or the orignal owner quites or loses financial control of his own company. I just wait until they get good and stop buying when they start to go downhill.
Hey guys, I can give you both sides of the argument.
I am a dealer and when I stared my company I could not get many of the larger companies and so was forced to sell many of the smaller companies products.
Over the years I have had many companies that I replaced with bigger companies products:
I had DK Designs, Dehavilland, Butler, Acoustic Zen, Harmonic Tech, Edge, Cayin, to name a few.
I have moved into Chord, Cary, Conrad Johhson, Kubala Sosna,Dali, Kef, and many, many others.
I have found that the best sounding products are indeed coming from the bigger companies who have more money to spend on r&d, can purchase or design their own parts, and have the resources to design whatever products they wish, as well as being a retailer you don't have to worry about the longevity of the larger companies so service and support over time is almost guaranteed.
You also have to remember that many small companies over time may grow to become large well established companies, take Wilson for example, and Magico and YG are becoming well established companies.
So is smaller necessarily better sometimes yes, sometimes no, I have found for me the best sound is coming from the larger companies, however in retrospect most of even the larger companies in audio are tiny, tiny companies this is especially true when you compare our favorite companies to most other industries.
Dave Lalin, President, Audio Doctor, www.audiodoctor.com
I go the opposite direction as Elizabeth. I hardly own anything from larger companies, and have rarely invested in audio gear that comes from any of them throughout all my years in this hobby. Sure, there have been exceptions, but I tend to prefer to invest in the smaller companies as I do believe the products and customer service are superior - at least they have been in my experiences over the years. I also have had the great pleasure of providing services to a few small companies and have made some friends in the industry so have some outsider's sense of some of the factors at play there (not nearly as directly as Duke, of course). The aspect of engineering time that Duke touched upon is something I might suggest expanding upon. Smaller companies, in my experience, tend to run on a lower overhead that doesn't begin to approach what a large corporate entity might invest in the same things: Advertising, packaging, brochures, promotion, mailings, R&D, rent, employees, insurance....all of these are significantly lessened when compared to larger corporations. The latter, by economic necessity, must make up the additional investment in the markup of their product. If there are distributors involved there is an additional markup as opposed to buying direct from some manufacturers (though I think it's really difficult for a small manufacturer to deal entirely direct these days, there are still those that do sucessfully). Dealing with a large manufacturer does not guarantee longevity, or reliability or superiority (nor does dealing with a small manufacturer for that matter). For me it's also a personal decision; having been freelance and a business owner all my life, knowing what I can deliver for less $ than any corporate competition could offer, I have far more faith in the small business person over the large corporation. Also, the few times I've ventured out to CES or RMAF, I am far more impressed by what the smaller manufacturers are offering vs their corporate counterparts, and especially when you look at the comparative costs. Here's a list that I'd consider over any corporate counterpart, in no particular order, that offer far more for the $ in comparison IMO of course - this will be just fast off the top of my head, most of which I've had direct experience with and or owned at one time or other, but not all (some are confined to the headphone world):
Atmasphere Audiokinesis First Sound Modwright Wavelength Audio-GD Audeze Quicksilver Apex Peak / TTVJ Empirical AudioMachina Decware Silverline Wright Sound (RIP George) Daedalus Schiit Eddie Current Soliloquy (OOB) DH Labs ACI (OOB) Anti-Cables Signal Cable Tyler
a small company, initially has the onus of convincing its patrons that it will be around and provide service.
if the small company can provide a superior product at an inexpensive price point, it might convince consumers to take a chance that, in absence of service in the future, the product can be repaired by an experienced technician.
also, small companies are under less constraints than large ones, especially if the income generated is not their main source.
certainly larger companies have produced fine products, as have small ones. i just think that a small company--designer and a couple of employees may have a certain ethic and pride which is missing in larger companies. the designer may be willing to experience failure and continue until the finished product satisfies his own (hopefully) high standards. however, one cannot generalize.
my own experience as a reviewer, motivates me to respect and admire the persistence of designers who own small companies. i have heard many products from small products which i consider fairly priced and offering a level of sound quality that is competitive with higher priced products from larger companies, some of which have been named by elizabeth. I think this is especially relevant to cable companies, where the initial investment may be less than that of a company which manufactures electronic equipment. although i am sure we can think of the names of designers of electronics which are representative of small companies, such as steve nugent, john tucker, dan modwright, gary dodd, jerry osman, gordon rankin etc., who produce fine products .
note i am using the term "small", in terms of number of employes, not sales revenue.
Regarding the "technical superiority and innovation" of mid to large size companies, I'm not too convinced of that. There's not too much innovation going on in circuit design, most aspects of that part of the equation are pretty well established. Class D amplification and digital audio servers (and related products) are the only things that come to mind in the "innovation" realm of late. Larger companies have led the way in those areas I'd agree. With established products like amps, preamps, analog gear, etc., there are many smaller companies that give up nothing but the advantages of economy of scale in manufacturing to the big names Elizabeth mentions. One thing I do consider sometimes is whether a company is going to be around to provide service of replacement parts if needed. In that regard, bigger might be better. Seeing that digital players have been trouble prone in my experience, company longevity and staying power were factors in my decision to purchase a Marantz SACD player.
Mrtennis, thanks for taking note of the sound quality of (at least some) small companies.
We trade off economies of scale for the economy of direct marketing, and hope that we can build a better-enough mousetrap to generate some word-of-mouth to make up for our relative lack of advertising. The internet makes this feasible; it was much harder yesteryear because word-of-mouth didn't reach nearly as far. The price of entry into the market has come down.
But, this still doesn't answer the question of "why" a small company can build a product that excels in sound quality. My guess would be, in a small audio company, product development gets a lot of free "off the clock" engineering hours from its owner that would have to be paid for in a big company if done by an engineering department. This is true of small companies both with and without dealer networks... and, may be true of some big companies as well (I bet Jim Winey put in his fair share of off-the-clock R&D before he hit it out of the ballpark).
Elizabeth, I think that your statement borders on being an insult. It is also a complete bullshit. Maybe you got wired to music a little too much. Something to consider..
"i think those middle/large companies offer the best of innovation and technological superiority" I could not disagree more with the above statement. I think the small guys can keep costs down by removing the distributor and dealer and to make a blanket statement that the larger companies are somehow more technically superior and more innovative is naive. Costs dictate the vast majority of the amount of superiority and innovation in larger companies you will ever see come to market. Some of the small companies have as noted by posters on this site have better service and reliability than alot of the big guys. If it sounds good , is built well , is reliable with good service who cares what the label says or if they dont have a huge name that you pay for with every purchase. Cheers
Most brands in high-end two-channel audio are made by one to four-man outfits who often work out of their garages or basements after they get home from their day jobs. There are very few that sell $1 million in product a year. They may have a tech or two assembling gear and helping with repairs. Many hire consultants on a per-project (per-product) basis to design much of their gear. Some of the speaker companies are "real companies", like B&W and Focal. Wilson is a real company (albeit a small one). But most of these brands are basically one guy. This is especially true for cable companies - Transparent, Kimber and Cardas make their own products, but most of the others are a guy designing on his computer and outsourcing production to companies like Belden.
And that's perfectly fine - there is no correlation between size and level of service. "VAC" is Kevin Hayes and Brent, with Kevin's mother answering the phone when he's out - they make great gear and give the best service I've seen.
I cannot concur with Elizabeths statement. I patronage companies such as Wavelength and Doshi. They offer ultra excellent personal service, as in getting back to you that day! Not to mentioning unsurpassed producting, IMO. Try getting Western Electric to call you back.....
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