Not willing to give up frequency extremes for the various music genre I enjoy, so multiple drivers with seamless crossover integrations - sounds like a cohesive whole.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'd describe my system speaker as cohesive/seamless/neutral/no coloration/ wide N deep soundstage(aka instrument separation) Further developments are on the design board. These new high tech WBers (vs the old Lowther/Fostex's of the 1990's-2000) offer a sound w/o the weaknesses and handicaps of yesteryear. Tang band just keeps on developing, adjusting, tweaking, break throughts, modifications,, til they get a winner. Which they ave accomplished. But they want Gold for em. Considering the price you guys are paying for Dali, Sonus Faber ,Wilsons, Tektons, Tannoys why heck the TB asking price is dirt cheap. TB W3 1878. can't wait
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I have dual WBers, about to make it a 3 way wide bander. + my paper tweeter is wonderful, clean realistic vocals, just claen/clear,, About to go better with a Be/Nd tweeter davidlouis clone of the scanspaek's $350 each tweeter. I just love these chnese clones, Are they robbing tecnhology from AER/Voxativ is the Wbers? DavidLouis is, for sure. The DLVX8 is a near identical clone of the AER/Voxativ. The DavidLouis Be/Nd is pretty close clone of the sacnspeak, Though I am againt china stealing techology,, in this instances, it serves me very well.
Your Tannoy tweeter aint gonna beat the Be/Nd tweet. Besides if I want a Tannoy, DavidLouis has a near exact clone of that speaker as well. Not the least bit interesed in a concentric. Us WBer fan-ATICS are crazyyy about our WBers. Wouldn;'t even consider using any other design as main singer in our system.
But when you consider AER/Vox/Festrex all 3 big WBer labs employ whizzers. They must have tested with and w/o whizzers. To me its not important whizzer or no whizzer, only the acutal sound matters to me. Still waiting for your imput as to the TB 2145's beaming effect. I could swear I heard soemthing of that affect in my 2 day testing. . So if the 2145 does present some beaming,
You've not mentioned PHY, who has been making 'full range' drivers for a very long time. None of them use whizzer cones. They are not any more or less beamy than drivers with whizzer cones and phase plugs. But you could make the argument they sound smoother. That is because breakups cause speakers to have a harsher sound, and whizzer cones can break up and introduce harshness.
The best HF response from the PHY drivers is probably their 6" unit.
Any two drivers design , add extra tweeter must use at least one capacitor ( first order crossover ) at least, If you connect tweeter direct it will blow away instant
Yes, the tweeter has a High-Pass filter, but no crossover. We all respond differently to different stimuli and I have traded in all my expensive and exotic equipment for simplicity and purity. When my friends listen they might not be "blown away" like they were with my exotic components, but I find I am drawn to listening now like I never was before. OP asked for opinions. As my listening ability has advanced my tastes have changed... simple circuits and simple transducers do it for me now.
Some things got different name , but actually is the same , sausage, and kielbasa, If manufactories say -no crossover is mean nothing between drivers and amplifiers, no capacitors , no inductions . If they use capacitors , does not matter how is say--- High pass or Low pass is mean -----CROSSSSSover
I have dabbled in single-driver full-range speakers. At least with Mark Audio "Alpair" drivers, they can be quite pleasing in the right enclosure. For me, they worked best in nearfield in MLTL enclosures. The paper coned drivers work better than the larger metal cone drivers which for me tend to develop cone breakup in the upper midrange.
The Alpair 7M works quite well in a MLTL enclosure in nearfield, Nicely balanced with a very detailed and smooth sound, reasonably deep bass, exceptional imaging. Slightly soft on top (lacks "sparkle" of a dedicated tweeter). A little "doppler-ing" but not objectionable or bad from my perspective. Very dynamic. Can sound "thin" on some recordings. Some head-in-a-vise imaging.
IMO, the Alpair 10P is the best in the Mark Audio Alpair line. Better bass than the Alpair 7M, a bit warmer tone balance but not muddy. Very smooth, detailed and clean. Quite good dynamics. Better developed / tighter / more substantive imaging - more than placement, the image has "weight." MLTL produces good bass, I'm guessing 60's. Very musically satisfying without warts except for maybe a slightly soft top.
Either of these drivers can produce a very nice single driver system. And they are inexpensive to buy and their MLTL cabinets are inexpensive to build. For just a couple hundred dollars, an audio enthusiast can experiment with single driver system to hear the advantages and shortcomings (mostly just full dynamic range). A good place to start.
And it's not necessary to limit dynamics by using low watt SET amps. I was using Herron Audio M-1 150 watt SS amps.
Footnote: I went back to larger multi-way systems since I have a large listening room and wanted to listen to the full dynamic range of a large symphony orchestra going full tilt at actual live levels. I didn't want to be concerned with a voice coil wizzing past my ear.
A 3 way design will most likely "blow away" everyone at first listen compared to a single driver. The simple reason is that 3 ways that blow away have tweeters running hot in the 10+kHz zone, and that creates an amplified spaciality feeling. However, listening to that for extended time will be tiresome and leave you jaded as music is not like that in real life. True, real life has the "extension" but it is not exaggerated. Although I have to add you can do a 3 way (or 2 way) design without running the tweeter so hot, but then the blow away factor will tremendously decrease... and trade for the ability to actually play a wide range of music,without listening fatigue. However, no matter how well the drivers are integrated, the crossover regions will ALWAYS make the sound more MECHANICAL. Single driver solutions are best when the frequency range is balanced: eg 60Hz-16kHz, or 40Hz-18kHz. 60Hz-20kHz is imbalanced, just as 30Hz-10kHz. If the material is not centered on the midrange, but shifted up or down, then it will always sound unnatural. The frequency response curve has to work with the brain's natural freq sensitivity. (Look at equal loudness contours). Listening to a 60Hz-16kHz single driver has the same effect as listening to the 3 way while playing QUIETLY. When you listen at quiet to medium levels, your ears CAN NOT interpret frequencies below 40Hz or so, nor above 16kHz or so. (The quieter, the more the ears/ brain cannot interpret). So, the brain perceives a single driver speaker as true full range at quiet volumes. Hence, single driver speakers are king when going for lower listening levels.3 ways are on a roll when you blast them. Nowdays everyone is going deaf, and seem to be a race who can listen louder... in that case, 3 ways only. Quiet listening - single driver is ultimate.So, next time you got a chance to compare single driver VS 3 way - try them out when playing quiet music.... and also try out how long until listening fatigue sets in. Single driver will be a winner there as well. Every method has a compromise, we need to pick our choices to match our habits.Eg no multidriver can touch violin rendering by a single driver...and no single driver can beat taiko drums or the Wannamaker organ on a 3 way...
Picked up a used pair of Gallos recently. Little FR sphere speakers. They have their drawbacks at the ends of their range but sending them a high pass signal and letting a sub carry the low end has given me the best imaging and instrument separation I’ve achieved so far for my desktop setup.
I used super tweeters with Altec 604E coaxial for many years. I also listened Altec 604E without super tweeters for couple of years. For last two years I use Fostex T90a super tweeters. It is always was some trade off between “audiophile” sound with super tweeters and more “musical” sound without. Super tweeters make sound more refined, more air, detailed… But harsh in upper midrange, more fatigue, more smearing. But when I changed super tweeters 1st order crossover to 4th order – the results I got are win-win! I got all the best all together! The sound is even more refined, detailed with huger soundstage and clarity versus 1st order crossover. On other hand it smooth (no harsh, no smearing), even more musical interpretation details compared to without super tweeters configuration.
I think the same should be true when using super tweeter with full range driver! I wonder, why most people use super tweeter 1st order filters? It Is so religion stubborn stupidity!
Most of classical speakers like JBL L300, Harbeth HL5 use super tweeters thought 3rd order crossovers.
Footnote: I went back to larger multi-way systems since I have a large listening room and wanted to listen to the full dynamic range of a large symphony orchestra going full tilt at actual live levels. I didn't want to be concerned with a voice coil wizzing past my ear.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My classical music has come completely alive with my whizzer WBers. Incredible soundstage. Not sure what WBers you are talking about, Surely not Tang bands best nor DavidLouis best WBers, can't be. You must have heard some low class WBer
A 3 way design will most likely "blow away" everyone at first listen compared to a single driver.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Correct,. Big Wilsons, Dali, Sonus Fabers will be very impressive in the 1st session,, Once you get them home,,, well thats a whole nother ball game. = fatigue sets in,,then you feel like a fool. Been there DONE that. Wouldn't trade my dual WBers for any speaker in the world.
Yes, the tweeter has a High-Pass filter, but no crossover
~~~~~~~~ I'm running my paper cone tweeter (yes I did say 1970's style paper tweeter, Kasun) witha single 2.2 Mundorf SESGO cap, sounds super duper, vs the Seas Millennium tweet like 8 components, 18uf, 2.2, 3.3 2.2 and perhaps 1 more cap!!!! ARRGHHHHH, trash. All you need for a tweet is a simple single cap 6uf-2uf , xovers drain the life out a tweeter.
Super tweeters make sound more refined, more air, detailed… But harsh in upper midrange, more fatigue, more smearing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yep I could not live witha super horn tweet, Not my cup of tea. I recall the old rat Shak super's,, just aweful,. Sure they are superior now, But I;'m going to try a Scan Clone Be/Nd tweeter vs my 3 inch paper cone double magnet tweeter. My guess is the Be/Nd will annihilate my fav paper tweet. Will run a single 2.2uf Mundorf SESGO cap. Think this will kick in at 10khz ish..range
Hi @mozartfan , High-Pass filter and crossover are the same thing! You didn't read my message. I told that 4th order crossover (HF filter) fixes most issues with super tweeter. I have to add that in case of
forward-firing super tweeter placement should be aligned with the speakers. It is true for any kind and order of crossover (HF filter). Regards, Alex.
The comment about all 3 way speakers being fatiguing in the long run is an incorrect generalization. I have lived with 3 ways that did betray their crossover points in use, but I also owned the Spendor SP100, and it was not the case with that speaker.
Hello @alexberger , also is very hard to add super tweeter to whizzer cone wide band drives, ih this case we have two tweeters - one mechanical -whizzer and other one electrical, we have to say by by one’ i say by by to whizzer tweeter and cut it down, I know some guys do it same and say whizzerectomia , may be wrong spelling
Thank you for explanation. I understand if you use full range driver you don't want to use it thought LPF. With most of compression driver - midrange horn combinations high frequency response drops relatively fast and without significant peaks. So it is possible to separate frequency ranges between midrange driver and super tweeter if using 3-4th order HPF for super tweeter and don't need LPF for midrange.
I have a friend who is DIY speakers builder with many years of experience. When he built a number of JBL 4344 clones he always use 3-4th order HPF for super tweeter. He told me to use 3-4th order when I bought Fostex T90a. But I didn't listen him in beginning. And I now understand how right he was.
The comment about all 3 way speakers being fatiguing in the long run is an incorrect generalization
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes this is true. What I mean by ~~fatiguing~~~ is certain fq's in the higher bass hz and the lower midrange fq;s, are **colored/barky/muddy/boomy *etc etc. Usually , in fact all this is comming from the midwoofers above say,,,200hz range through,,whereever the midwoofer ends its singing part in the speaker design, usually at 1800hz-2200hz. I really have no issues with tweeters other than they are extremely inefficient and thus the music sounds like a wet blanket has been thrown over the speaker. Thus midwoofer (other than my Seas Magnesium) all are some paper type comp, Accuton has ceramin, might be OK, but those mids are wayyyyy over priced. So basic midwoofer has terrible time in the 200hz-2k hz range. This is where all the grateing on my nerves comes from. Now again, I know of 2 tech geeks who adore their stacked paper cone speakers from the 1970's, So each his own. I could not live those paper things, Totally grate my nerves. I need/demand pure neutrality with zero coloration. This is how WBers voice, pure clean music. No coloration, zero fatigue.
This is what i mean about fatigue. Again you might find your speaker perfectly ok. But for some we are looking for neutrality, no coloration from the midwoofers. And tweeters won't work for us WBer cultists.
I have to add that in case of forward-firing super tweeter placement should be aligned with the speakers.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Acoustic tweeter alignment is the single most important thing you can do along with protection for the driver. A single cap inline is not very much protection. 3/4th order is used for the protection and when lower crossover points are used. A 2.5khz crossover for a tweeter is not uncommon. The use of a super tweeter is usually because the crossover points are to high on a conventional 3 way with VC drivers.
Mid range is 250-2500hz. Planars and ribbons work the best for me. One driver I use is actually good from 300hz to 20Khz. Try to get that out of a VC driver and be happy.. A
Dual Concentric is pretty close, still two drivers, though.. but the acoustic alignment is the key to that drivers success. I love Tannoy Lancaster series.. JBL C45s
Most people do not know how to hear and judge a speakers voicing. Here's the issue. I know how to do it now. As stated above **midrange is 200hz-2khz** Thats where my ears are keen upon. A name is not going to make any impressions. Wilson. OK, its very popular, has lots of excellent comments, Great, should i be impressed by popular vote? Why? Sonus faber,, just the name sounds soooo exotic. If we place speakers behind a curtain and have a Zu as one among all the xover types.Immediaetly you are going to know which is the WBer (aka Zu) and which are all the xover types. Its not really difficult you know. But folks auditiona Wilson, and just based on the name in Neon lights flashing, WILSON,, psychoacoustics sets in and that alone gets Wilson's advantage. When truth is, behind the curtain, the Zu is the one that will most impress. WBer's always win. Most folks have no clue how to hear, listen and judge a speaker. WBers always win. Why? Don't make me, please dont repeat myself.
I use 0,33 mkf capacitor , can say HP filter or 1 st order crossover for tweeter Fostex Ft-96 EX-2 pared with 4 " TB- 1320 in my current models Lexington and Urban, did a lot experiment with 3 and 4 orders. Stopped on simple
I want incredible transparency so I feel like I’m in the room. I want a vivid convincing sound stage. I want full range, so everything is present. I want dynamics and realistic spatial cues. I want natural delicate overtones that don’t sound like hyped treble pretending to be resolution.
Nothing I know of offers one stop shopping that successfully addresses all of those requirements. There are pros and cons to every philosophy and every choice. Pick your compromise(s).
knotscott212 posts10-20-2021 3:02pmI want incredible transparency so I feel like I’m in the room. I want a vivid convincing sound stage. I want full range, so everything is present. I want dynamics and realistic spatial cues. I want natural delicate overtones that don’t sound like hyped treble pretending to be resolution.
Nothing I know of offers one stop shopping that successfully addresses all of those requirements. There are pros and cons to every philosophy and every choice. Pick your compromise(s)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Exactly, BINGO
What i am trying to erxpress is the WB configure I have voices music the way I wanta speaker to sound. Will anyone else agree,, is not important....Perfection?? Not sure what that is ina speaker. Wilsons at $$$$$$ is exactly NOT NOT what I want a speaker to voice. That I can assue you, even w/o actually hearinga Wilson, just looks tells me, not my cup of tea.. btw I just listened to some YT vids on the Zu's, Again, not my cup of tea. I'm a hifi/high end WBer. These davidLouis work just fine as a ultimate speaker system. ...and about to get better when I add in the TBW31878,,then the Be/Nd tweeter. look out,,, Perfect as Scott says above... perhaps not, But sure draws me in to WANT to hear my classical selections.
knotscott212 posts10-20-2021 3:02pmI want incredible transparency so I feel like I’m in the room. I want a vivid convincing sound stage. I want full range, so everything is present. I want dynamics and realistic spatial cues. I want natural delicate overtones that don’t sound like hyped treble pretending to be resolution.
Nothing I know of offers one stop shopping that successfully addresses all of those requirements. There are pros and cons to every philosophy and every choice. Pick your compromise(s).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 2nd post on Scotts ideas.
As I was listening to Miles Davis Kind of Blue 2nd track,, your post made me ponder and reflect on what you said.. I have to rethink this thing through... OK so we all want what you describe soundstage instrument separation vocals life like. bass, mids highs dynamics realism etc ’etc
But you know each of us will hear these things with a dif set of criteria/inner judgements. I base what I hear on my Seas Thors experience past 15 yrs.
This is my reference point. Now back to what you were saying Actually whther a speaker has or does ot have these qualities which may be hard to objectify ina real setting, each will hear what he wants hto hear.
What I say is, regardless of these qualites we all hope for. Its better if we consider qualities we DO NOT want in a speaker.
I block out bass, and highs. I only wish to know how the 200hz-1800 hz sound. Thats it. If this super critical range has muddy, goopy, boomy, greyish/taupish, foggy, murky, bloated, heavy, soupy, midrange/upper bass issues. Here is where a speaker either gets the cigar or does not.. I find no such descripts in my speaker system. I ran the Seas W18E001’s full range, just to see how they sound,, yuckkk, they are trash w/o a 10uf cap and thus only good under 1600hz. maybe 1800hz. Perhaps the golden 2k. I think the 10uf takes them to 1600hz. They sound great. The Davidlouis 200-1800 hz, have zero muddy low bass mids. Nothing bloated, boomy, = zero coloration, thus zero fatigue. Again bass 40hz-100hz, is not my concern. neither are the say 6khz++ range. I have no interest in these fq.s I can find these excellent drivers that will deliver these fq’s w/o any coloration. Its that super duper critical 200hz-1500hz that i want right (= perfection) in a speaker Zero toleration, zero coloration. My ears are hound dog for just these fq’s in any speaker evalution.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And if you you dont know what these horrible qualites actually sound like in a speaker, Just go hear any Bo,,,no les not pick on Bose,, thats too easy to a pick. Take any B&W to experience these unwanted distortions. If your speaker can not beat out a B&W, time to look for a hifi WBer set up.
mozartfan said: "Most folks have no clue how to hear, listen and judge a speaker."
But you do? You contradict yourself left and right. Zu beats Wilson, but then you watch a youtube video of Zu speakers, (now that's definitive...) and decide that they're not your cup of tea. You are a mess.
Yes I made FUTHER more through research hearing soem YT vids of the Zu's. Not my cup of tea. Not neutral, sorry no cigar. A speaker must possess this one quality Neutrality. If it does not have neutral voice, then you will have issues. One guy ona chart forum tried to console and comfort a Tek buyer with deep regrets, after his snakeoil induced purchase... saying **Look I have my Acoustic Reserach AR3's now 50 yrs, I am quite happy*. So I guess each his own. Zu's are far from neutral.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Well its only IMHO Others can make their ow call, Zu does have a super duper generous return policy. What happened was , I was INITALLY convinced the Zu's propiatary driver was unique and very musical. I was wrong. They are not, agian, Its only my opinion, Feel free to order as you can always return. I'm staying with my Davidlouis/AER clone. Well actually Vox clone, as the cone is wood same as Vox's $5k model. The DLVX8 has neutrality as a signature voice. Hear my YT vids if you have doubts. Its all in my videos. Yeah I did earlier pump Zu;s, now I am speaking out with futher research. Aplogies to Mr Zu.
My tech geek just wrote **Its impossible to tell what a speaker is like via YT vid w comp speakers*
WEll lets say you hear biden's voice and then trumps voice via YT vid, with no image Other than both blabbing BS content, you can't decipher who is who speaking? Is what I wrote back. Lets see what he says. I can hear some issues with Zu's YT vids. Its there, what exactly, not sure but just dont like what i hear. But with a return policy there is no risk So single driver but has to be high fidelity = neutrality. Just any old single driver will not always beat a 3 way. Most every Tang Band will indeed outshoot Wilsons, Dali, Sonus Faber. 3 BIG GUNs. = $$$$$$$$$$
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