Simaudio 400m / 860A vs PS Audio BHK250

Thank you all for your responses.  Just to add a bit of diversion to the discussion, has anyone compared the Simaudio Moon amps to Ayre?  I am also considering the Ayre VX-Twenty power amp.  It is similar in price and power to the Sim 760a.

@dynguy that's what I imagined we would hear from Sim and I believe it. From what I've heard the chassis is a major input cost so the 760 should hopefully blow away the 400m. I guess in moving on front considering the 400m for sure now. More in the 760/860 world. 

The 760a is interesting as my dealer I’ve only seen this amp around on a couple of occasions. I have heard the 800 series many times and they are pretty spectacular.

I just sent an email to Sim about a serial number of a used unit I was looking at. I threw in a quick question about the 760 vs 400m. I got a single line response from Sim. The 760a will make the 400m sound broken. 

@randyhat I've not heard the 760A though I've heard the 700i and it sounded great through Wilson Sashas with Moon 6 series streaming dac.

When I bought my M400s specifically talked about the option of 760A versus 2 M400s.  The owner of the store told me Moon told them the M400s are for folks who appreciate 'fun' over 'refinement'.  The 760A is a good choice for someone who is desiring a reference type of sound experience. 

Or as said to me - your listening levels are too high for the 760A though it will provide more finesse in the details over the M400.  (I had McIntosh MC302 and was evaluating upgrading to the 462).

I don't know enough about your speakers and rest of the system to suggest which may be the better option.  I can say I often have the volume between 50 and 55 on a scale from 1 to 80 and I am happy with my selection on the M400s

Good luck on your journey.  And for what it's worth - I think it may be worth enjoying your Bryston a little longer and saving for a bigger jump - say the 860A. 

Anyone listen to or own the Simaudio Moon 760A?  How does it compare to the 860 or the M400?  I know it has less power than either the M400 or the 860 but I think it would be sufficient for my Vandersteen Quatros.  I doubt if I want to spend the money for the 860.  A pair of 400s is about the same price as the 760A and that is a price range I would want to stay in.  Recommendations between the two?  BTW my current power amp is a Bryston 4bsst2.

I did an extensive audition of the Simaudio gear and thought it was excellent.  I ultimately went with Hegel, bang for the buck being the determining factor.  Very similar performance to my ear and though I haven't measured it, the running temp seems acceptable.

@j-wall 

After almost five years of enjoying the sound and tolerating the heat from the BHK 250 I sold it and replaced it with the Kinki Studio EX-M7 which is fronted by a Supratek preamp.  I don't feel like I lost anything except the heat.  The Kinki runs barely warm at idle or full tilt.  My 250 was in my system at the house in the Florida Panhandle with similar heat and humidity issues.  

@sdw @jbuhl I like how this turned into a PS Audio thread. Lol. I was hoping to go for the Moon gear but for $3k less I guess I could give the M1200’s a try.

Full disclosure. I live just down the street from PS Audio and on occasion run into Paul at the grocery store. I have toured their facility and when I bought my S300 went down and picked it up at the shipping doc.  I fronted the S300 with a Mullard Rogue pre and IMO it was good sound for the $$.  I like Tubes and class D

@jerryg123 I've been eyeing those Atma-sphere Class D's. Not sure if dealers allow in home trials with them or not. Don't know if there are any dealers in my area or how that process works for Atma-sphere. The tubes in the m1200's is what has me real curious though. 

If I were looking at Class D it would be AGD, Atma-Sphere or Bel Canto Mono Blocks. 

@sdw @jbuhl I like how this turned into a PS Audio thread. Lol. I was hoping to go for the Moon gear but for $3k less I guess I could give the M1200's a try. 

Call up PS Audio they will let you try/buy their class D mono blocks and you can test head to head with the BHK.  I had the S300 for several years and it sounded great and ran very cool.  Only sold it because I wanted to try class A/B and I found a Quad Altera that runs cool.

@j-wall I like they had effortless power - 600 watts per mono block. You won't run out of headroom. In my specific circumstance, given the speakers I have, they were a little more bass centric than what I ultimately ended up with - PS Audio's BHK 300 mono blocks, which are AB. Depending on your speakers, the 1200's could be an excellent choice.

@sdw would you say they compete in their own way with the A/AB stuff? What did you like about them?

I've owned the PS Audio M1200's - I really liked them.

I'm using a Primaluna Dialogue Premium Pre. 

And really no humidity in Texas? My time in Galveston and Houston there was quite a bit of humidity, but sure lol. 

Yeah I'm upstairs. We have 24ft ceilings so all the heat rises into the rooms upstairs so the AC tends to cool downstairs a lot easier than the upstairs. 

I've considered PS Audio M1200's and Atma-sphere Class D's but not sure yet with the class D stuff. 

@j-wall What are you using for a Pre-Amp? Synergy is important and I had the Simaudio 390 as a pre. 

BTW there is no humidity in TX.LOL.

I am all tubes now. 14 foot ceilings help though and a kick ass AC System that is balanced. 

@jerryg123 this is awesome to hear. I'm in California so the only difference is probably the humidity! Would you think I'd be losing a ton of fidelity moving the monoblocks that are essentially half the price of the BHK? Do you think it could be made up with an upgrade in the preamp? Curious about capturing more detail and naturalness. Dealers I've spoken to are always trying to guide me to different brands even when Sim dealers. 

I can attest to how cool the 400M's run. I had them in one of my systems several years ago and they run cool when even being driven hard.

I have a room that is 12 x16 with 14 foot ceiling and the south wall  is all window really. Never had any real cooling issues albeit it is the first floor but I am in Texas! 

@dynguy thanks for the info. I've seen the 400m in person and they are barely warm to the touch in standby, but I haven't experienced listening to them or their heat output but is assume it is very very low. 

I own 3 400m for left right center. I’ve had them out in the open on amp stands and I’ve had all three in my audio video cabinet. For an amp not class D pumping this much watts and current they just do not get beyond warm ever. My room is not big. I’ve had them for a very long time. Never an issue. Never a hiccup in quality. They are not much to drool over looks wise but as stated I had them in my cabinet. Not that they are ugly either just not a Luxman but built like a tank. The sound is pretty outstanding but it is a mono version of the 330a. Expect more up the ladder.

I’ve auditioned the 860a and it was awesome. To me deeper into the details. Better stage. Maybe a touch sweeter. But quite a bit more money. I usually stuck with 400m at dealer when auditioning speakers as is what I owned.

As stated shoot for the moon is pretty awesome. You can climb to next levels in the line first year and get a full credit from your purchase towards an upgrade or in year 2, lose 25%. It really is pretty great if you want to enjoy the first year or two while saving additional funds to move up.

I think you would be thrilled with the 400m. The size, the weight, the sound are pretty great in this range. 10 year warranty, top rate customer service. And barely warm is the word of the day.

Older review about sums it up.

https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/231-simaudio-moon-400m-mono-amplifiers

No - I don’t have a thermo laser. 

@overthemoon any idea how cool they run? I understand it isn't an exact science but using a thermo laser my BHK runs 122-124 and is just way too hot. I figured heat specs would be way more common for amps while they're running. All I seem to find is idle temps. 

@jimbones I'm to the point to where I find a cooler amp or buy 20ft runs of interconnects and 20ft runs of speaker cable and keep the amp and pre in another room. We'll see how that goes if I do. 

I own 400Ms - they run significantly cooler than my previous McIntosh MC 302 and NAD C375BEE. They can get warm to the touch versus hot.

My space is bigger and I commonly listen 75-85 dbs. I have the Moon 390 and Rega P8 and have SF Olympia Nova Vs.

I can’t compare the difference in sound between the 400M and 860A. I am very happy with my gear (previously I had McIntosh C2600/MC302 with Moon 280D) and it’s transparency, detail and weight.

I have heard 860V2 and it’s amazing when I heard it in a $100k system (Linn’s new DAC, Moon 700 series preaamp and Wilson Sasha DAWs). I’d be inclined to by the 400Ms because you get 100% in year 1 on a trade-up and 75% on year 2 on a trade up.

Let us know how it goes.

I am in a similar situation as you. I want to get a good cool running SS amp. I am using CJ Premiere 12 and doubt a SS amp can please me lol