Should Sound Quality of Computer Audio be improved

I share Pettyofficers frustration about CDs no longer in print. However, this phenomenon has nothing to do with the emergence of downloadable music (in my case - I have been trying to get my hands on some Munir Bashir releases). These are simply exotic titles that don't make the publisher any money running an new batch to produce. With or without downloads, these titles would be gone on physical CD media.

If anything, some of these unavailable titles CAN still be downloaded as MP3. Without downloads there would have been NOTHING.

Chadeffect- I thought this was an AUDIO Format, not LESSONS ON THE WRITTEN ENGLISH Format. If I want English Lessons I will be talking to an English Professor, not YOU Professor. You would make a lousy English Teacher, stick to your day job- we will all be safer.
Mapman- Never have I been so misunderstood. I concider a Laser a step up from magnetic particles of 1's, and 0's. Not to mention how fragile, and vulnerable those magnetic particles are to magnetic flux. A Cassette Tape in Disk Format with magnetic 1's, and 0's- sounds really nostalgic to me. Do you need a map to step up to Lasers? Cassette tapes suck because they are so fragile, and highly vulnerable. DITTO IN SPADES for Hard Drives (And Back-ups)
for the exact same reasons. Same Laws of Physics still applies for both. Cassettes are disposable, Ditto for Magnetic Music Files!
Edorr- perfect attitude that encompasses the direction that Computer Audio is going. As Audiophiles, let's embrace MP3 at a portion of the resolution of CD. If Manufacturer's want us to buy a New Format at a portion of the resolution of MP3, lets embrace that too! Lets endlessly repeat this exercise, TO WHAT END? Really, is there no bottom here? Spend your monthly paycheck for a few beans of sound quality? Beans that are "Soon To Be Available", so you are left eating dirt! Someone will get rich on this FOR SURE! It ain't going to be you getting rich on Sound Quality, or Selection.
You may think that you are better off today in terms of Music Selection, and Sound Quality. It is an illusion.
Music Files are extremely vulnerable- that is certain. Do you have a replacement should anything happen to thousands of Music Files stored on your Hard Drive (Back-up just as vulnerable). In a Magnetic Storm of a Solar Flare, I suggest your ONLY viable back-up will be a CD. Who would have thunk it? Powerlines can be replaced, even CD Players can be replaced. Who pays for your unretrievable magnetically based Music Files? You do, or you simply do without them. They are, after all, designed to be disposable. Why should it be such a big shock at how vulnerable they are? STILL, there is no money back guarantee should you lose them- WHY? What do they know that you don't? They know HOW TO MAKE MONEY! Law of Conservation, make money from where? From YOU, of course.
At what expense? At the expense of Sound Quality. You are paying a fortune for a house of straw (Computer Audio Format). What can I say, Houses of Straw are certainly "CONVENIENT". They just weren't made to last. That is what's so "INCONVENIENT" about them. What makes them so "PROFITABLE", is the appearance of "CONVENIENCE".
An Audio Format based on fragile magnetic 1's, and 0's is an illusion of Sound Quality, Selection, and Convenience. It is a house of straw not made to last. Only thing nostalgic is Greed, and Profit. CD's cost many times more to produce than downloaded Music Files, and the price is the same or higher? Me thinks someone is being robbed blind here! You certainly have alot to talk about, so I will leave you alone now. Pet Rocks, Downloaded Music Files- what's the next fad to make someone a millionare? Should I be forced to pay for the air that I breath-NUTS!
I have to draw the line...SOMEWHERE! Where do you draw the line on Sound Quality, or the quality of anything? Are the majority of the American Public not interested in the quality of ANYTHING? Sounds like a VERY lucrative, and profit making Market. Yet, the Economy still sucks. Have you figured it out yet??? Maybe someday you will if it is NOT too late, and you still have a job! If you don't, then the answer should be very obvious. Your former Employer thought that the buying American Public wasn't interested in purchasing the high quality that you provided. Someday,
I pray, we will learn. Have YOU learned anything yet?

Dear Pettyofficer,

We don't need a professor to teach basic English. Although I am wondering if we need a highly qualified professor in psychology to work out what your angle is?

Your above post and its issues have been answered so many times now.

MP3s you love to bring up. This argument has been answered. Zzzzzzz. Incase you forgot MP3 is about convienience and maximum storage. Not audiophile needs. There are many more advanced data files for that, some lossless and others with more modern data compression algorithms . You have the choice and can always keep your full bandwidth music stored.

As for HDs and their vulnerabilities? So far we have survived. So I can assume you will be able to playback music with HDs for quite some time. Magnetic or otherwise.

Greed and profit? Market? Which country do you live in? Is it the one that has no concept of profit or markets?

Robbed? We are all robbed on some level. Take a look at world history. Most countries were built on it. This is not about a format.

Ever wondered why back in history the British navy was so powerful? Huge chunks of it were paid for by robbing the Spanish gold which they in turn stole from South America. The British went on to build an empire and power their industrial revolution. Shall we move closer to our life time? Who is paying for the 2008 Bank crash? Robbed indeed.

And yes you do pay for the air you breathe. It's paid for by those who went before you (around 2-3 billion years of bacteria and photosynthetic organisms on earth) and also paid for by the eventual break down and decline of your own body. Oxygen is dangerous stuff. It's highly reactive.

Nothing is forever PettyO (except maybe this thread!)

I admire you, PettyOfficer, even if I do not agree with you.

I can picture your father, twenty years ago, decrying the "death" of the LP. "I'll buy your silver discs when they weigh 180 grams", he would say. "Where will you be when this "laser" dies on you? I'll take a good MC cartridge THANK YOU". "Perfect sound forever? How about good sound right now!"

Of course, the CD did not kill music, nor has the Internet. For every CD that goes "out of print", two more spring up. Plus, you can buy the old ones on eBay!

I don't see it happening the way you do. I don't see this lack of choice, and I don't see a slippery slope to expensive garbage. I am definitely no more afraid of magnets or solar flares than you should be of bit rot.

I see a wonderful future where enthusiasts record classical music and Patricia Barber with equal care and meticulous microphones, and where you can get those recordings the next day. Also, at the same time, Latvian rappers can make a demo riding the bus to their dishwashing job and I can have that too. I appreciate diversity of formats and diversity of mastering interpretations those formats make possible, but more than anything I appreciate diversity of MUSIC.

I honestly do not think that the death of XRCD will result in any fewer choices, lower quality, greater risk or higher prices. It is the result of people moving to a better format. Down with silver discs, lets listen to music directly!

"For every CD that goes "out of print", two more spring up."

Good point!

chadeffect..i wouldn't throw too many 'stones in your glass house' if i were you with regard to the 'english language'...'MP3s you love to bring up.'...is not a sentence....'Incase'..is 2 words not 1...and 'convienience' is spelled convenience...

Thank you Calloway. Although I am not sure I understand your punctuation. "chadeffect..i wouldn't throw too many..."

Why the two full stops after chadeffect?

And surely the "i" should be a capital letter?

How is the glass at your place?

Sorry to interupt this mutual admiration society. Most of your arguements contain alot of emotion, but a little short on logic- and reason. No one has even challenged my premiss of Hard Drives being the equivalent of "Cassette Tapes on Disks with magnetic particles of 1's and 0's". Does this mean that you all agree with it? If so, the same threats to magnetic flux based Cassette Tape still remain the same threats to Hard Drives. Stick a gigantic magnet next to your Hard Drive, or a collection of Cassette Tapes!
This will wipe both of them out. It certainly won't be an improvement! If you all disagree with my premiss, then give me the alternate logic and reason based on real World
Physics. CDs lasted too long to make an adequate profit for the Music Companies (Too Long?). Back comes a disposable magnetic based Audio Format (Fragile, Fragile,
Fragile)= !BOOM! PROFIT! Happy days are here again, the
disposable magnetic format (Cassette Tape) is back!
Still, no one will even try to answer why there is no replacement guarantee on Music Files if anything should happen to them. Give me the logic and reason behind that! I
say it is because they expect YOU to have to replace those
Music Files many times over= MORE PROFIT! How can you claim to appreciate diversity in Music, while promoting the
elimination of diversity in Music Formats? Your arguements are very emotional, but your logic (and Reason) still adds up to Buttcuss! Lasers beat magnetic flux, it isn't even
arguementative. Yet, I will see half a dozen responses arguing to death the opposite. Are you trying to convince me, or yourself! You are obviously failing at both. Where
is the Math, where are the Physics, where is the Sound Quality, where is the Selection, where is the Music (besides MP3), and where are your heads- besides in a very dark place? With Computer Audio you haven't got it! Convenience won't compensate for "EVERYTHING ELSE" that goes into an Audio Format. Screw the American Public for thinking otherwise- this will simply not make it true! Time to wake up now as the Magnetic Flux continues to "BLEED". We have a "BLEEDING" Audio Format now? Ain't that special? Put a tornequette on it, and stuff it! CD is
the only adequatte tornequette for magnetically based Music Files. Try going without a tornequette, and you will just bleed to death. Give me an Audio Format that will "Live" a little longer than that! I vote ZERO confidence in any magnetically based Audio Format. Look where all of the Audio Cassettes are now, end of arguement.
Master Analog Tapes fairing a little better, but not by much. Magnetic Music Files, Magnetic Cassette Tapes! Flintstones....we're the Flintstones...! Tired of repeating the "STONE AGE" again on Audio Formats! The only thing that will get us beyond the Stone Age is Quality, Quality, Quality. You want convenience stick with playing with Pet Rocks. You can bang them together for your Music if you want- REAL CONVENIENT! Never mind the Lazer passing overhead.

Most of your arguements contain alot of emotion, but a little short on logic- and reason.

Now that's the pot calling the kettle black!!!!!!

Pettyofficer is probably right about the magnetic formats, we all know how bad those ancient real to real tapes sound.... Sorry, petty doesn't want to discuss the stone age. Better not mention SSD drives

Pettyofficer,

SSD may help if you are worried. I am sure the magnetic drive will last long enough to be backed up.

I was under the impression that CDs if kept under the correct conditions were said to last 25years. This may refer to the writable ones though. Although I did read that the early CDs could start to flake after a while. If memory serves it was due to the type of black print used on the label side. Anyone else remember that?

The primary concern about CD logevity, so far, has not been realized. Before CD, there was actually the video laser disc. The disc is a sandwich of plastic with a metal layer in between. That layer of aluminum could corrode if exposed to air. With a lot of the laser discs, the gluing of the plastic layers was not perfect and air managed to work its way into the sandwich and oxide the aluminum. This was referred to as laser rot. I saw the result with quite a few laser discs. The CD is made differently and very few have suffered from such oxidation problems. I think that CDs are quite robust.

No one has even challenged my premiss of Hard Drives being the equivalent of "Cassette Tapes on Disks with magnetic particles of 1's and 0's". Does this mean that you all agree with it? If so, the same threats to magnetic flux based Cassette Tape still remain the same threats to Hard Drives.

Your concern about magnets and hard drives is misplaced, PettyOfficer, for two reasons. I'm happy to discuss them here.

1) Digital files can be stored on any medium you choose, PettyOfficer. A number of digital storage mediums are impervious to being Degaussed and suffering data loss. USB drives and solid state disks are both common formats which would survive your theoretical "gigantic magnet" test.

2) Hard Drive degaussing requires prolonged exposure to electromagnets that weigh more than you can carry and require a connection to an electrical socket. Those magnets are not only *incredibly* powerful, but they are designed to produce a very specialized field for the sole purpose of erasing a hard drives. Normal magnets, even "gigantic" magnets, won't do the trick without really prolonged exposure, upwards of 30 minutes. Unless you simply leave your hard drives lying around next to your computer case, this is unlikely enough a situation as to be practically impossible.

Hard drives are not cassette tapes. Not all magnets (or magnetic storage devices) are created equal.

Really, any scenario where my drives are exposed to a giant magnet powerful enough to erase them is no more likely than my disks being exposed to an open fire capable of melting them. Everything physical can be destroyed.

For comparison, I work for the Department of State. My office routinely deals in information classified at a TS/SCI level, which is literally as crucial as data could possibly be. That data is safely stored on magnetic hard drives.

Still, no one will even try to answer why there is no replacement guarantee on Music Files if anything should happen to them. Give me the logic and reason behind that!

Also not so. I am happy to relieve you of this fear as well. iTunes (for example) will allow you to download any of your purchases numerous times. Amazon does the same, as does BandCamp, 7digital, and countless others.

More to the point, though, who is providing you with a guarantee on your CDs? We've already established that Hard Disks are as safe as CDs for storing data, but should my hard drive be destroyed by, say, a natural disaster, I could retrieve all my data from a cloud backup or re-download it from the store where I bought it. Could you take your story and a hand-written list of albums you lost to a Tower Records and expect the same?

If you can provide any evidence that hard disks are susceptible to magnetic erasure (degaussing) that I didn't find, do so here. Otherwise, you're making an assertion you now know to be untrue.

Theebout,

Thank you for your thoughts and information.

A lot of discussion here brings to mind what an ambassador once said about his role in the Middle East and the emails he received for his work. It goes something like this:

"Instant access to information does not mean instant access to knowledge, much less wisdom. In the past, information was integrated with experience. Today, it is integrated with emotion. Digital technology has played an important role in fostering this atmosphere of bad manners, vicious personal attacks, intolerance and disrespect. Bullying has gone viral."

This is not to say that anyone here has gone THAT far but one can see where anonymity gives rise to unrestrained modes of thinking.

All the best,
Nonoise

Sorry, Theebout. You have taken an extreme version of my premise, and tried to use the extreme to nullify any arguement. You have to completely erase the entire Hard Drive to even slightly corrupt the Music Files stored on it? I think you know better, and so do I. I also believe that Electronic Devices (Like SSD) are succeptible to extreme Electro-Magnetic Radiation, as in a Solar Flare. Same Solar Flare can wipe out any source for replacement of Music Files. There is risk involved dealing with an etheral Format like Music Files. Even if I were wrong, TWO
Formats (Not One) would reduce the risk to the Consumer/ Music Lover. This is not to even mention the usual Ills that affect Computers/ Music Files (Viruses, Malware, Defragmentation...etc...etc...etc). You want me to live wrecklessly with my Music based on a single fragile Audio Format? I say two heads are better than one (Did I.Q.'s just drop sharply on the practical application of this Knowledge, and Wisdom?). In any event, one Adult to another, who here has the right to force anyone to take additional risk on their personal buying choices? Atleast I support a choice, you propose only one. Maybe I am just a fruitcake Audiophile, but numerous Format sources of my favorite Music is my best back-up. Back-up Hard Drive just
another Life Preserver with the same holes in it (Succeptibility) as the original Hard Drive. They are the same mechanism. My goal isn't to dismiss Computer Audio (Something implied that I never CLAIMED), but that Computer Audio- and CD seem to work pretty well together. I am just not willing to bet the Farm on either/or. Not thoughts, or information- just some plain stubborn American Common Sense. Give me something (Or Two) that is robust enough for me to rely upon (For My Music). You can keep the intellectual exercise, I am just a fool who likes listening to Music. You want to limit me on this...WHY???
Your facts have come up short on adequate explanation for this, atleast certainly to my satisfaction. You demand that I make a sacrifice where one isn't necessary, like cutting off your nose to spite your face! IT-MAKES-NO-SENSE! Endless factoids won't fill that vacuum. Nice piece of info though, now lets try some practical application- where does one Audio Format alone have the benefit of that same Format plus another? As you have said, "Everything Physical can be destroyed". That goes for both Formats. This seems to make an arguement for keeping both Formats around. Your single Format benefits who, and for what???
It only imposes more limitations on those who listen to Music, as if a limitation is a benefit (2 - 2 = 4) Your 4 is only an imaginary benefit like Computer Audio. Check your Math again. Not interested in using your Math-Sorry!
The result is actually 0, which leaves me short on my music. Not interested in "Shell Games", where it comes to reducing my Music Selection. I don't see Downloadable Music Files increasing by ten-thousand, to replace the dwindling ten-thousand CDs now out of print. Who should go without their Music while we move toward a single Audio Format (Don't say MP3)? Maybe is not the fragility of Computer Audio that is the issue, maybe it is the execution (CD/Lack of Music Selection) of it taking over. No logical reason to take a hit on Music Selection during a Format turnover- NO REASON WHAT SO EVER! You haven't got the selection to take over anything- EGADS! KEEP WORKING ON IT! Computer Audio still not good enough- N-A-A-A-H-H-H, what else have you got?

Pettyofficer,

You have had numerous people giving you good advice and information. You have disregarded all of it. You obviously know better than the whole world. Back up your music to CDR.

"Back up hard drives are just another life preserver..." That is the point. Cannon fodder. If one dies you replace with another.

For gods sake your solar flare argument is so daft. If this happens you will have no power anyway. Let alone any ways to buy music. No phone no banking system etc. And when power is restored it is probable that other sensitive parts of the circuits in all your equipment will be destroyed/effected. We will all be returned to caveman status. Your CDs or whatever format will not help you. You will have to whistle those tunes like the rest of us.

Returning to a disposable Cassette on a disk, with magnetic 1's and 0's, IS returning to Stone Age Caveman status. There is risk to the Consumer in purchasing an etheral Audio Format, as opposed to a physical one. Ruining one CD doesn't ruin all of them. What will ruin a handful of Music Files, will probably fragment all of them. All eggs in one basket may feel convenient...But!!!
Hey, two baskets (One Back-up Hard Drive)- perfect solution! Problem solved! This is how your logic sounds. I want to protect my Music with a back-up Format of CD. You want to shoot the whole load on a single Audio Format of Downloading and a daft Solar Flare? No power anyways, so blow away any sense of precaution now? Boy, aren't we living wreckless? My issue has always been that YOU have a right to live wreckless with your valuable Music- You still don't have the right to impose the same on ME! You call this "Good advice and information"? Insult me all you want, I still have the right to keep my Music safe. Damn, never thought that doing so was a crime- THIS IS SAD! Best advice is to keep CD Format as back-up Format for Download Music Files, "JUST IN CASE". "Yes, you do pay for the air that you breath". Is that some twisted way to mean more money in your pocket for the priveledge of us breathing? Well, it is not only CDs and Guns, now you will have to pry the oxygen out of our cold dead lungs. Does nothing belong to the individual anymore? Not property, unalienable rights, right to vote, or even breath. We are all just disposable Carbon Units listening to disposable Music Files. Save me George Orwell, I think that I am going to be sick from all of this "CONVENIENCE"! Being treated like an Animal in an "ANIMAL FARM". So much for an Emancipation Proclamation. Humans as slaves to bacteria- EGADS! What else are we being slaves to? Why is it that only those labeled IDIOTS are the only ones who demand a choice? This is plain narcistic Ego trip, demanding the authority to dictate how everyone else shall be controlled in how they listen to their Music. They don't like it, or
they complain, they must be IDIOTS! Sounds to me like someone deciding that they are just a little more "EQUAL" than others. Is this what it is all about? This sounds more like a personal problem, can't help you. It is obviously about you, not me! I'm willing to share the market among two Formats. Aren't you being just a little greedy demanding that I be allowed to use only one? Sure, this makes me the real lunatic Villain here. Why do I feel like I am the only one who lost something here? Why does everyone here complain more (numerically) than I do, if you already have what you want? Why aren't you happy? Why waste your time here? What do you want from me, Blood? You will just have to settle for all of my CDs, my Gun, and the oxygen in my lungs. Sorry if that comes up short! I know how you hate not getting a 110% of what you want. Grow up, and get over it. There is nothing else left to take (take my wife, please!). There is no Music Selection for me in the Download Music Market, unless it is MP3. Take
my CDs, no Music for me- and YOU are unhappy? This is not enough??? Give it a rest already! Used to pay someone else to Remaster/Rip/Burn my Music onto Disk, now I have to pay through the nose to perform the same priveledge myself? It doesn't get any more Stone Age than that! I am not a Professional Mastering Studio. I don't think that anyone else here is either. Best layed plans of Mice, and Men with cheap laptops. Well, I guess you could always pretend!

Pettyofficer,

"Why do I feel like I am the only one who lost something here?"

Where is that psychologist? Last time I looked everything you used to have you still have and can still get. You are safe.

Your argument is a storm in a tea cup. Each point you make makes little sence if you think clearly. You do not need to remaster anything. You don't have to rip anything. You are not even the villan. You are just misunderstanding and dare I say a little paranoid.

I wonder what the failure rates on HDs are? In my own experience, and massive solar flares aside, I have had 2 HD failures. But I have had probably 100 HDs so far. So should you go down the HD path, three back ups should keep your library very safe. HDs are cheap enough these days and you will have the original CDs.

There is no "have to" anything. All there is is choice. You can use your CDs. No one is stopping you. I doubt there are that many CDs you want that cannot be found. But as time passes you will have to go to more specialist shops/websites to find them. Again not any Orwellian nightmare, just market forces..

We do not need your blood, or even the air in your lungs. If your wife is pretty and good fun we might take her though! ;-)

Low blow on the Wife issue, I will let it pass. "I doubt there are that many CDs you want that cannot be found. But as time passes you will have to go to more specialist shops/websites to find them". Been there, done that many times over. Been searching HD-tracks, and other download Websites. Even lowered myself to search I-Tunes. Selection isn't there (Unless MP3). Gone online to Silver Platters, Amazon, Elusive Disk, Best Buy....etc- to search for the missing Silver Disks. Went to the Stores for particular CDs, ended up empty handed. Ask same Stores to do a search,
answer is always the same "No Longer In Print". Store Salesmen tell me that atleast ten thousand CDs are currently OUT OF PRINT. They apologize, there is nothing they can do. They then claim that it is all due to Downloading. Your presumptions, Chadeffect, simply do not reflect observable realty. THIS is what makes me nervous
(PARANOID- are you kidding) about Computer Audio. None of the claims about it actually match observable reality. This unorganized, "MESSY", and lazy turnover of Audio Formats has ended up leaving a gigantic hole in Music Selection. It is VERY REAL. When you are in a hole of Music Selection, THERE ARE NO CHOICES! You have prematurely rushed an "Soon To Be" Audio Format in Music Selection while selection in the Old Format has BEEN GONE!
We take the hit in giving up listening to our favorite Music. Not available as Download, no longer available on CD ten thousand times over! Who do I speak to about this? Oh yeah! I have been speaking about this for quite sometime- look at the length of this Thread. Most of it due to me having to repeat myself ad nauseum about this problem with single exclusive Downloading Format. Computer Audio Downloading is simply NOT doing it's job in putting the Music Selection IN MY HAND! It is prematurely driving away many more options as fallback in CD. Feeling a real pinch here, and have been deriled/ insulted/ dog piled for trying to bring the current "MESS" of our Music Status to light. Do not need to remaster/ rip anything. Also need to give up DXD, 32-Bit, Multi-Channel 24/96-24/192 MLP, DVD Audio Advanced Resolution, SACD, XRCD, XRCD2...etc. These things are not downloadable, and they may never be. This only adds Advanced Resolution Disks to that growing hole of Music Selection. Can't measure the sound quality of Music Selection that is "Soon To Be". Can't listen to it, and certainly can't use it to replace CD Music Selection that is already gone. I suppose we can't try New Music on CD, that will be gone too. Can't try Remastered releases on CD either. I have seen maybe a handful of Remastered Downloads available. Computer Audio Downloads simply aren't up to speed in Music Selection. Would be nice to purchase even New Music on CD until Downloads are up to speed- OOOPS! TOO LATE! Will have to go without Music again tonight. Simply not available as Download, and Out of Print in CD. Something has simply got to give here! I find this Mess in Music Selection as intoleratable. Convenience isn't the pill to solve this vacuum! Your solution to this problem is to simply attack me for raising the problem. I suppose that you do this because it is simply more "CONVENIENT" than actually having to deal with the problem. Ignoring problems with Computer Audio will surely put a nail in its coffin as fast as CD. If down to a single Download Format, this will mean NO FORMAT- GREAT! If I were you I would be a little more cautious with that "Last" exclusive Audio Format of Downloading. Certainly if you want to make it the only Format we have left. Better take more care of it (Music Selection) than you have so far! I am NOT impressed, and my patience is wearing thin on not having Music. You have better do something to preserve the only (Your Desire) Format we will have left. What you are doing so far, ain't working.
Time to get "RESULTS ORIENTED" on Computer Audio Music Selection. Your Music, New Music WILL DEPEND ON IT! I don't believe that I can depend on Downloading exclusively for my Music Selection for New Music, or ANY Music. Problem is, I can no longer depend on CD as well. It wasn't this way before with our Music. You tell me what went wrong, and fix it- or your Format is simply no good!
If it can't deliver the Music, it certainly doesn't deserve to be the only "Exclusive" Audio Format. Prove me wrong by fixing the problems, not by attacking me! I think you know the problem is unsolvable, that is why your only solution available is to attack me. Confirmation will be in the next response. You are not fooling anyone, if that is the case. Prove me wrong. You guys simply don't know how to replace an Audio Format; because, you are doing it all WRONG! Music Selection results speak for themselves!

Downloadable music means that more recorded music will be readily available for a longer time (forever, even) than ever before. Physical media is a limiting factor in the publishing and distribution of music. This is a big win for everyone, seems to me.

Petty Officer's thread seems to be mostly centered on how he hates computers and their association with audio. Very little discussion addressing the sound quality of computer audio and if the sound should be improved?

Hence, it would be more appropriate for Petty Officer to completely close this thread and create a much more accurate title labelled -

"Why I hate everything about computer audio."

I'm just sayin ;-)

I have come to understand that Petty is completely correct about everything he says.... In his own mind. Every alternative point has turned to argument, a one line statement from anyone gets a page from Petty. His endurance is amazing, as so many say, I agree to disagree. He has a different perspective and is unbending, even to logical, concise examples.
This is a no win proposition my audio brothers.
Tim

PO is obviously of superior intellegence to anyone on this forum. I am beginning to wonder if he is an alien from another galaxy sent here to evaluate our species for a possible assimulation. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

I understand Petty's concerns but do not share them.

Time to put this thread to rest? 6 pages and where have we gotten? What have we learned?

Thank you Timlub.

I just have to add before doing my best not to post on this thread again that of the 10,000 CDs that are no longer available, I don't need any of them. Numbers can overwhelm and give the false sense that the sky is falling.

How many copies of the no-longer-available CDs does one have already?
How many are just not selling?
How many are of poor quality compared to todays pressings and just won't sound good on a decent rig?
How many are now available in some form of download and most likely sound better than the original CD?
How many are only available in MP3? (see above)

All the best,
Nonoise

My responses are long because some like to dog pile- they think it makes their position stronger. If I hate everything Computer Audio, why do I want BOTH Formats? I use Computer Audio, I know its faults, so do you!
It is a little hard to measure the "Sound Quality" of silence, and weither it should be improved or not. If the Music Selection isn't there, what are you measuring? What is the point? "I understand Petty's concerns, but do not share them". I'm not sure what to make of that one. I can't seem to add it together.
Drubin- no offense. What you say seems like a sales pitch (Or Too Good to be true). Reality just doesn't measure up to your description. It sounds to me like a whole hell of alot of hot air- soon to be. I am certain you believe in what you say- so much so that when someone indicates results that don't match, they must be the fault. Here, and Now (Not Future Soon To Be) Computer Audio Download Music Selection leaves alot to be desired. You have not heard this the first time from me! Here, and Now ten thousand CD Music Selections have been gone for quite some time. Computer Audio is not keeping up.
People, there is currently a whole lot of Music that is NOT available on CD, AND NOT available as Downloads. If "understanding" this concern, "but not sharing it" is the best that 7 pages of Responses can do- I'll take it! Something tells me that you guys know there is a problem, but just want to protect Computer Audio against all. I have NEVER threatened Computer Audio. I have never claimed that it should be eliminated- shoot, I use it alot of the time. I like it, I want to keep it. It's advantages outweigh it's disadvantages. I also want to keep the Silver Disks "just in case" those disadvantages become unmanagable. If that makes me some unreasonable "ALIEN" from another Planet, or a "Borg soldier here to assimilate" (COME ON!). Sorry if it takes a whole page (Or Seven of them), to address such rediculous issues. I am doing the best that I can in as little space as I can. I will try to do better (Assimilation, that is)! I plan on continuing to use Computer Audio, but you have got to give me some slack on the Music Selection on both CD- and Music Downloads. Your Silver Disk Assimilation to Download ONLY
availability- is just being a little bit too ruthless on Music Selection. I am not always right, neither always wrong- I just know that I am missing Music. To me (Crazy Idiot!) that is NOT an option in switching Formats. If that makes me an Alien, so be it- call Will Smith or M.I.B.! Attacking me again in your last Responses- is confirmation of what? Go back and read my last response more carefully, if you don't know. I think you know, so do I. Why continue to pretend? No one here is really an Idiot, unless they pretend to be. Some of us need more time to catch up, unless you just want to leave a big portion of our Music behind permanently. Let me know what Music you want to cherry pick to save, so we will both know what will be available P-U-L-E-A-S-E!

" "I understand Petty's concerns, but do not share them". I'm not sure what to make of that one. I can't seem to add it together. "

In other words i can understand your frustrations with teh complexities of modern computer based audio. I agree it is too complex for many. Not for me though. I work with computers for a living though so I do not consider myself a typical case.

ALso, computer audio is still a "new frontier". It will become more settled over time, probably for the better.

Pettyofficer,

"Low blow on the Wife issue, I will let it pass."

I meant no insult, quite the opposite. It was meant as lighthearted fun. Please except my apologies if offence was taken.

To continue on with these other rather tedious concerns, I think you worry too much. I have yet to see any unresolvable issues in your long replies. Surely after many replies you can see another side to your concerns?

I honestly read your list of issues and most just don't exist. The format thing is irrelevant. These will always be interchangeable/convertible and available. Even if you just keep redbook.

But I do understand this availability problem. It's just a case of knowing where to look. Give us a list of CDs you would really like to find. Maybe I could help track some of them down. If it existed it probably still does somewhere.

Mapman- I am not frustrated with the complexities of Computer Audio. Certainly confused with the Salesman line of "CONVENIENCE" based on that complexity. WOW! What a wake-up call THAT was! I say this because I still do use Computer Audio, and still want to continue using it- as I have stated before. Just don't want to be isolated in the marketplace of using it as my last, and only resort. This is what a single Audio Format would imply.
Chadeffect- I have no problem finding CD Music Selection Online. Always find it, although it may take many hours to look for a particular selection. The problem is that I always find the magic words next to it "No Longer Available", or "No Longer In Print". Not alot anyone can do about that. It is a case of an availability problem, and a case of knowing where to look- this includes Downloadable Music Files. These problems will continue to get worse as "Music Selection" remains splintered across a dozen sources. There is no longer a single place to look for your particular Music. It has become like playing the Lottery, chances are you will miss it. To really make this problem worse, many times over, would be to pull the Music Selection left available on Disk while same selection does not yet exist on Download (Soon To Be?). THAT IS WHAT'S SO WRECKLESS TO MUSIC SELECTION (Disk and Music File). Downloads not keeping up, and certainly unable to fill the vacuum of CD selection should it be completely yanked- as some have demanded. We are ten thousand CDs "Out Of Print" already on the way there. Because of that I have missing Music (CD and Download). Yank what is left of CD, Downloads will not be able to pick up the slack for quite sometime. I am pretty old, this is not my first Rodeo, I have certainly switched Audio Formats before. This is the first time it has ever been switched where selection for the New Format will remain "Soon To Be" for many years to come. Rediculous to suggest that all of the Music on my shelf should be the "ONLY" Music that I am likely to ever listen to. So much for exploring other Music that I have yet to listen to. No Longer In Print, and not available as Download (Perhaps for many years to come). Asking that somebody go a little easier on the "Reaping" of Music Selection from "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads". I want New Music, Old Music, ALL MUSIC, available for everyone. Never going to get there the way we are going. That tells me that there is really something wrong with the way we are doing it. It has never been this way before- struggling, and not finding our Music. Selection either existed in Old Format, or in New Format; but, NOT absent from either Format to such a degree simultaneously. What is so different this time? I don't think that it is being done correctly, and it is being done incorrectly too fast! Show some mercy! Have a little empathy for others losing their Music due to "The best layed plans of Mice and Men". Does anyone even care about Music being available for everyone, or is it just "Scr_w you, I got mine"? Pretending to being blind to the problem doesn't help. In fact it might even be permanently damaging to Computer Audio for quite sometime. We will certainly be permanently losing a large portion of our Music this way. THERE IS ANOTHER WAY!!! Computer Audio (Music) should be servicing us- this is how it is done.
Computer Audio Downloading is NOT providing New Music, Old Music, ALL MUSIC to everyone- and it won't in the near future (Certainly by itself). There is no use for any Audio Format that defeats its own purpose. People will tire of what is not available as Download, and BEEN GONE with CD. End Download Format, CD long gone, and we end up with NO FORMAT! Everyone happy? I guess that I will be the only one NOT! These concerns have "NOT" been addressed. Claiming so, doesn't make it so. More like "Sweeping it under a rug". Sorry to offend in yanking the rug back. Just a consequence of redoing the floor (Changing Formats). What were you expecting? This switch-over is a cluster-____, and a mess- compared to all other switch-overs. Need to clean-up the mess of missing Music Selection before using Download Format as only/ last resort. Accelerating forward now is not my idea of bravery, more like wreckless suicide. Clean-up the mess.
"It is the only way to make sure". CDs will certainly have to be around a long while before THIS mess is cleaned up.
As Mature Adults, we clean-up after ourselves- don't we? Are we just getting lazy, impatient, or both? Not exactly mature. Computer Audio Downloads as last/ only resort for Music. Sounds scary, doesn't it. Perhaps for good reason.
Mother Nature gave you those warning signs for a purpose, not to ignore danger! That is, unless you want to be a Deer
in headlights/ roadkill. Stop turning our Music Selection into roadkill. Computer Audio will eventually get there, but not until its Music Selection is robust/ worthy. That is the standard we have always held ALL New Formats. No New Format should ever get a free pass of someone going without their Music. Going hard on the Audio Format, so it goes easier on the Music Lover. Reversing that should be a crime! Experimenting as such is certainly a crime against Humanity, and Nature. This certainly puts consumers a few rungs down on the food chain. Why this self-destructive behavior with our Music, I will never know! Me, I'm going down those few rungs a clawing- and a fighting. Millions of years of Evolution put me on the Food Chain where I am at. I will be damned that someone is going to sell me out by a few rungs (For Convenience?)- fought too long, and hard to be where I am at. I'm clawing up- NOT DOWN!

PettyOfficer, you make a fair point above:

Why does everyone here complain more (numerically) than I do, if you already have what you want? Why aren't you happy? Why waste your time here?

Why, indeed?

My enjoyment of music certainly has little to do with yours, PettyOfficer, though as a friend I would love to see you have more of what you like.

The only reason I'm weighing in here is for the benefit of posterity, and for the hearts and minds of other posters. This is what I do, and it's not meant as a slight to you, or an incitement to you to change your ways. I just don't want future generations to look back at us arguing about formats and misunderstand any perspective.

So, to that end, I have two more points I'd like to bring up. You continually mention cassettes and solar flares, and I think a fuller understanding of the issue would bring clarity to the discussion.

1) Magnets have a measurable strength, as anyone who's ever tried to push two together with their polarity opposed will tell you. Some are more powerful than others. The strength of a magnet's "Magnetizing Field" is measured in Oersted (or Oe) units.

Any storage medium for magnetic information, including cassette tapes, reel-to-reel, and platter Hard Disc Drives (NOT Solid State Drives) also use magnets, and due to the unique principles of magnetism it will resist having its field altered or realigned, to a certain point. This property is called "coercivity", and it's what protects your data. In a very simple sense, a weaker magnet cannot influence a stronger one. One cassette tape cannot erase another, nor can a weaker magnet erase a hard drive.

The Earth itself has a magnetic field of 3-5 Oe. The magnetic field generated by a cassette tape is between 25-50 Oe. Modern hard drives, which write data in a perpendicular fashion, have an Oersted rating of 4000-5000 Oe.

By contrast, the magnetic read head of an MRI (magnetic resonance imaging) machine in a hospital has a rating of about 60,000 Oe. Not to worry, though: a magnetic field degrades exponentially over distance. As long as your hard drive is more than 1 meter away from the MRI read head (i.e. not in the MRI machine itself) the field will not be strong enough to effect your drive.

I hope that puts to rest the question of whether "giant" magnets will erase your drive, and the comparisons between cassettes and Hard drives. Hard drives are literally upwards of 100 times more powerful than cassettes, and the strongest magnet most of us are likely to encounter in our lives won't erase them unless we're trying. Nothing to worry about.

2) Solar Flares. I'm not sure where this concern comes from, but it's not warranted. Solar Flares wreak all kinds of damage on our lives, degrading satellite orbits, ionizing our outer atmosphere, corrupting radio communications, and numerous other detrimental effects. One thing they don't do is effect the Earth's magnetic field. If they did, you would routinely have bits of metal around your house flying into the air.

The single most magnetically disastrous entity in the known Universe is a magnetar. This is a superdense neuron star, so dense that a thimblefull of magnetar would weigh upwards of 100 million tons. It's the strongest magnet in the universe by a country mile, and it will literally rip the water out of your body at 1000 km. It's magnetic field is hundreds of billions of times more powerful than the sun.

However, it couldn't even erase credit card strips until it's about half the distance from the moon away from Earth. By that point, the gamma radiation it emits will have destroyed our entire civilization.

None of the problems from solar flares are magnetic. They will never erase nor corrupt your hard drive.

Plenty of things can erase or corrupt the data on a hard drive, but magnetism and solar flares are not among them. You're far more likely to lose data to a power failure, read error, or any other of 100 things than you are to magnets, and you can easily protect against those things.

So be concerned about choice and about quality, but don't worry about magnets or solar flares. This data will outlive us all.

"Mapman- I am not frustrated with the complexities of Computer Audio. Certainly confused with the Salesman line of "CONVENIENCE" based on that complexity. WOW! What a wake-up call THAT was! I say this because I still do use Computer Audio, and still want to continue using it- as I have stated before. Just don't want to be isolated in the marketplace of using it as my last, and only resort. This is what a single Audio Format would imply."

But your thread title was about the sound quality. Mine with computer audio is the best I have ever had. IT will only get better, but I am quite pleased with it these days.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the computer audio monopoly concerns. I do not see it at all. Biggest problem is that its harder than ever for companies to make money selling CDs. That's OK with me too for all the reasons already explained.

THat's about it for me.

Cheers! Go Ravens!

Tbeebout,

an excellent post. Full of clarity.

Mapman: Sound Quality minus Music Selection equals High Quality Silence. Sound Quality, and Music Selection are both part of the equation. Take one, or the other out of the equation- and you end up with what? An Audio Format ready to replace all others? You seem to want to isolate Music Selection as an objection. My point is that if Music Selection is the first domino to fall, second will be Sound Quality, third will be Computer Audio Download Format AS only Format of last resort. So you are eating up my CD Selection, and pushing Download Selection further towards the edge of a cliff. Continue slow growth of Download Music Selection, and an ever accelerating increase in the elimination of CD Music Selection. Some will lose Music Selection in total. I already have! Many more will fall victim to this acceleration curve. Total elimination of CD Selection (Without Download alternative) may very well create a wave of victims. This could create a backlash, and end up costing us both Formats. I'm left with what??? This is your experiment, switching Audio Formats in this manner. Never been done this way before. We are in unexplored territory now, with the preservation of our Music (Old and New) hanging in the balance. I say our Music is more important to us, and not worth the risk. The Music Selection simply isn't there as a foundation to support Format switchover. In fact the foundation is dangerously eroded for both Formats. Collapse is inevitable, in fact one collapse could instigate the collapse of the other. Of course it isn't clear, neither was the collapse of the housing bubble. It also wasn't clear how housing collapse could bring the entire Economy of the U.S. to its knees. Until this actually happened people ignored the warning signs there too! Keep on investing in property. Housing bubble hasn't burst for decades, and it will never burst for the forseeable future. Economic Bubbles burst based on the deficit of something becoming too large. Your Formats Bubble is based on the deficit of Music Selection. A deficit that can only enlarge when any alternative selection (CD) is rapidly yanked. If your Format cannot fill this- POP!!! This is what you propose with "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads". Your Format is years, if not decades away from being able to fill that selection vacuum. You are disregarding this, and forcing the acceleration of something that is not ready- POP! I go down with you, with my Music, when Computer Audio Download bubble bursts. This is NOT a favor to me!!! You are taking extreme risks with my Music that I never signed up for. You are writing checks that your Download Format cannot cash, and I don't want to be the one ending up paying the difference! Try a one on one (One advance selection in Download equals one elimination of CD selection). You can do this at any speed you want so long as you are actually really replacing in volume (Download) what you are eliminating (CD). Me thinks that you just want to eliminate "ALL" Music Selection to force everyone to come crawling to Download Format, even if it means having to sacrifice some (If not all) Music Selection. You are being the Monkey playing with a loaded gun, if this is your intention. It goes off, and shoots someone else in the head. I DON'T WANT IT TO BE ME! You object to this, and are extremely offended. You personally attack in response with a dog-pile. You do this to bring down your prey with numbers. Isn't that rich? New Music, Old Music, ALL Music for everyone. Grow up, and face it. Your Format cannot do that, and you have no plans on making it so. You expect it to happen in a vacuum of Music Selection, and make false promises of "Soon To Be" Download Selection (Smoke and Mirrors)- POP!!! We lose ALL Music Selection, and BOTH Formats. Your dangerous game is way too rich for my blood. I think that I will hold onto my blood! Wish that I could hold onto my Music, instead of letting you gamble with it. Me thinks that you are just going to gamble it away on the "CRAP" Tables of Convenience- S-O-O S-A-D!!!

Strongly disagree- Theebout. Your description not so clear. You leave out several important facts. Coronal Mass ejections are created by the Suns Magnetic Field and super heated plasma. When it is ejected it carries its own magnetic field from the Sun. This envelopes the earths own magnetic field (Halfways between the Earth and Moon- are you kidding?). It has its own polarity and interacts with the Earths magnetic polarity. Same polarity as Earth (+ and +) it is relatively repelled. Opposite Polarity attract
(+ and -) with Earths magnetic field means a real bad day for us! You ignore Polarity, the Suns magnetic strength that goes into a Coronal Mass Ejection, and the proximity of this event to the Earth itself. These Ejections are created by the uneven rotation of the Sun. Part of the Sun rotates faster than other, which causes Suns magnetic lines of flux to twist. Super heated plasma follows these lines of flux. When these lines of flux twist so tightly that the ends of the loops actually cross, the loop is ejected from the Sun with tremendous speed and force. Sun goes through a 7 year period where magnetic lines are twisted ever so tightly before either snapping back into place, or ejected. What you are referring to is called a super dense Neutron Star (Not Neuron). Again, you don't need to "Erase" a Hard Drive to corrupt it. All that you would need to do is to fragment the files. They naturally fragment over time because magnetic flux bleeds, just like a magnet gets weaker over time with numerous usage. Just like the magnetic flux bleeds from one layer of a cassette to another layer on top, or below. Audible ghost Music can be heard from one track overlayed on top of another. The issue is that CDs have absolutely none of these problems, or are certainly NOT within question. Temporary is what temporary does as Music File on a Hard Drive- they weren't made to last. If they were meant to last they wouldn't be
T-E-M-P-O-R-A-R-Y, fragile, fragmenting, malware/spyware susceptible, magnetically redundant, disposable trash! Do you know how many Hard Drives are disposed of every year?
Flying shards of metal, what are you smoking? Now please explain just how small these magnetic particles really are on that Hard Drive. We are not talking metal shards, we are talking magnetic flux. Bang a magnet, and you can reverse its polarity. Polarity is kind of important, don't you think? It kind of determines an attractive, or repelling force. How can you talk about magnetic force, and completely leave out the all important thing- the direction or polarity of that force? Maybe a 180 degrees out of phase from "Full of Clarity"? That's more than just a little off! More like half truths, and inconvenient truth severely edited. No more half baked arguements please, it's getting really boring. Talk about Magnetism, and leave out Polarity? Go back to grade school where you can play with magnets again. Can you figure out why some magnets attract while others repell? I am sure that you can figure it out! I will bring a thirty pound magnet and set it next to your Hard Drive and a pile of CDs. We will leave it there for three days. My money will be on the CDs still working- sure bet! Now why would I instead risk that same money on a Virus ridden Hard Drive, and trash the CDs? Nope, I'm greedy- and not a gambler. I insist on having both Aces up my sleeve. That is about as clear as it gets. Let your fancy talk convince me to settle for just one Ace being better than two? I can add you know.
You just prey on the poor S.O.B's who can't- for shame!

But Petty, how does all of your overtly longish posts support or address your actual subject title; "Should the sound quality of computer audio be improved"?

Your responses have been completely centered around how you feel computer audio will most likely hurt our future music selection, potential quality and the unproven robustness of the medium's data storage techniques?

So, why did you choose to label the subject title "should the quality be improved..." when you aren't really addressing your own chosen subject title's question?

An increase in the number of Music Selection of Higher Sound Quality for a particular Format, IS an increase in that Formats overall Sound Quality. What is the point of only having one, or two selections available of higher sound quality in any particular format. One, or two LPs!
One, or two CDs! One, or two downloaded Music Files! If any of these were the case (And the rest of the selection was trash for Sound Quality) then would it be a stretch of the truth to say that the particular Format is a "LITTLE" short on Sound Quality? Does only one selection of high sound quality elevate ANY Format to high sound quality status, despite the rest of the selection sounding like trash (hypothetically)? This is only an extreme result for example purposes only. Same applies to a lesser degree.
You cannot download DXD, 32 Bit, MLP-24/96-24/192, Multi-Channel MLP-24/96-24/192, XRCD, Multi-Channel SACD, HRx, H2 N2...etc. Tossing the Silver Disks (As many have demanded) means we toss the option of selection in these disks. Argue the Sound Quality of these Disks (I get mixed results) all that you want. We lose the option of ever improving on these Disks, or increasing their selection. For many Recordings, it will be a step down to adopt to Downloading as a Format of last/ only resort. Give me DXD, 32 Bit, MLP, Muli-Channel, XRCD...etc, as available as Download so that we atleast have the option of trying to improve. The point is we don't know where any of these might eventually lead us in Sound Quality if modified/ updated in application. We slam the door shut on any opportunity to find out if we go Download of last/ only resort. I see many Music Servers being capable of storing 32 Bit Recordings. I am hard pressed to find any downloadable 32 Bit Music Files. Yet, everyone is just iching to burn all 32 Bit Silver Disks, or eliminate their selection. Premature is, what premature does! No safety net here, that is my issue. Silver Disks would make a convenient (I dare say) Safety Net for Music Files. Professional Mastering Studio's would certainly do better than some rank amature burning a disk in his garage (Contrary to popular Myth, what a fantasy. Leap tall buildings in a single bound with your spare time?). Suprised to find us coming full circle back to 1980- near the dawn of CD. Right back to argueing "Bits are Bits" with Music Files, as was misrepresented with CD. As if the research into Digital Recording, for the last 32 years never even happened! Can you say, D-E-J-A-V-U? Arguing the same crap, over, and over again ad-nauseum. Finding out we were wrong again, all over again. Well, lets re-invent the wheel 10,000 times more. THIS we call PROGRESS??? We are just re-inventing the same mistakes that we have made for the last 32 years. Slap it on a lunch box, and "SELL IT"!
"SELL IT"! "SELL IT"! In this turmoil of experimenting with our Audio Formats, a safety net (CD) would be prudent.
Nahh! They would rather see us standing naked, like Charleston Heston in "Planet Of The Apes, clinging to a few threads of download Music Selection. Pleases them, to no end, to rip the last threads of CD Music Selection from our bodies. Last fig leaf of self-respect! "Get your filthy paws off of my CDs, you damn dirty ape"! (Joke). Still seems like a bunch of Apes on the steering committee of this thing. Just hope we don't get driven...OOPS!...off of the road. Do we all just pound our chests in salute to Download Music Files, our only/ last Format of resort (The Law Giver)? "BOW YOUR HEAD, HUMAN. Downloading is your MASTER now"! I have to admit that I am a little rebelious here. Can't help it, it is in my Genes. There are certainly alternatives to "THIS"! Why in the world would you want to close ALL of those doors, and go without a safety net? Easier ways to kill yourself, kill ALL Audio Formats, and kill off your valuable Music.

I can add you know. You just prey on the poor S.O.B's who can't- for shame!

I don't feel any shame in bringing numbers and analysis to the discussion, rather than more "common sense" oversimplifications. Einstein said that common sense was the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. Was there anything out there to play a .Wav file when you were 18, PettyOfficer?

So long as my employer continues to store TS-SCI information -- national security secrets -- on magnetic drives, I'm comfortable storing my DSD discs and 24/192 vinyl rips there.

Theebout, in my experience most National Security Secrets, stored on magnetic drives, are stored underground. I wonder why? You suggest that we become Groundhogs to listen to our Audio Format of only/ last resort?
When someone promises you 4 - 2 = 5, and can't compensate for the difference, is it "common sense" oversimplification to ignore it? If you showed "THAT" to Einstein, demanding he keep an open mind, he probably would just walk away. He wouldn't bother wasting any more time with you! You could try reminding him what he said about "...collection of prejudices...", he would probably just keep walking. He would know that you were just trying to sell him a red herring. You are playing SALESMAN, not PHILOSOPHER. He would know that you are just trying to sell him on "You can get something from nothing". You are
also just trying to fill the vast difference with your own ego (Playing God). Using your math hurts us personally, because "WE" have to compensate for the difference- or do without! 4 represents Total Music Selection, -2 represents CD Music Selection, 5 represents Download Music Selection sometime in the future (hot air based on promises). This is the Math of a Salesman, NOT a Physics Professor! So transparent it is "Elementary" to anyone. It is "EXTREMELY CONVENIENT" Math, so extreme to be absolutely absurd. A Bank Teller short changes you several hundred dollars at the Bank, and puts the difference in her pocket. You demand due compensation, and she conveniently claims that you are just applying "Common Sense" oversimplification- and calls you an idiot for doing so. You apply some oversimplification, and call the Police. Common Sense oversimplification is how we keep "YOU" (Mr. Salesman) honest. It "Lets the buyer beware". It lets us aware when you are trying to sell us the Brooklyn Bridge, Snake Oil, or even fragmenting Music Files. It lets us challenge your sales pitch. It protects us with a firewall of distrust. It reminds us that "When someone is promising you something for nothing, it is usually too good to be true"!Is that the type of "Common Sense" oversimplification that you are refering to? No wonder you want to "Coveniently" remove it. It is a pain for you isn't it, and for very good reason! It isn't there for your advantage "SLICK". I guess you can just continue preying on those poor S.O.B's who choose to buy into the "CONVENIENT" Slick Advertizing. You want us to "Oversimplify" getting rid of
"Common Sense" oversimplification, and fill the vacuum with "Absolute Nieve". Talk about being "Simple Minded"!
Can see you coming from a mile away, like two Antelope with night vision goggles spying a Lion. "Carl, is that you again- or is that Theebout"? What are you sneaking around for? I'm too oversimplified, I can't figure it out- NOT!!! Are you comfortable storing DSD Discs, or Music Files ripped from DSD Discs? Burned them yourself perhaps? If it is Discs, you have proved my point! Even you know better than to go Download/ Music File completely as Format of last/ only resort. Still, you want to "SANS" completely the Music Selection in DSD Discs for everyone else. AIN'T THAT RRRRICH!!! Try crunching the numbers on this hypocracy, and tell me what you get! Aren't you special with your special Math!

We have stepped into another dimension...

It took you 21 days to come up with that response? Was there a time-warp when you stepped into that other dimension? Does the math ( 4-2=5 ) still add up in that other dimension? Strongly suggest you seek out Rod Serling in there, to lead you out- and back to reality. Is this a case of "Eddies (Hfisher) in the Space/Time Continium". "What the hell is he doing in there, why doesn't he get the hell out of there"?
All joking aside, you want Downloading to be Audio Format of ONLY/LAST resort. This is your 5th Dimension goal? Put up ( Music Selection, high S.Q. reliability) or shut up. Went out on a limb for SACD/DVD-Audio/ High Res. DVD-Audio/MLP/ High Res. MLP/Mastered 32-Bit Disks....etc.
Going out on a limb (Lack of Selection) was a formula for failure in these High Res. Formats. You must be a glutton for punishment to try that same formula for High Res. Downloads. Give us, and yourself, a break! Strongly suggest you re-asess, and find another solution. When I feel confident that I can safely rely upon Downloads for Old Music/New Music/ ALL Music- THAT is the time to concider canning all of the Optical Disks. You, Microsoft, Apple, and everyone else on this Thread have no plan on getting us there! Current plan is simply not working- Music
Selection results for Downloading simply speak for themselves. Switching Formats is (Music Selection) results oriented. Don't travel down that same road, and add High Res. Downloads to that same growing list of failed High Res. Formats. Would like to keep High Res. Computer Audio around for a little while- and get rid of the damned MP3! It is just clogging up the pipes! MP3 really a bad sign of going in the wrong direction. Praying that MP3 isn't a sign of an endless pattern. That would really make ALL AUDIO irrelevant! You get what you are willing to fight for in S.Q.! Are you going to fight, or roll over with Computer Audio Downloads? I simply cannot support anyone who fights to roll over on S.Q. (MP3) for the sake of convenience. That is simply NOT who I am! There is nothing
"Convenient" about being an Audiophile- it is a royal pain in the ___! It is an isolating, thankless job sticking up for S.Q.! You don't actually think that I enjoy it, do you? It's ONLY perk is S.Q. Take that away, and what have you got? Take away Music Selection, and what have you got left in S.Q.? Music Selection/S.Q. in only/last resort of Download Format- SHOW ME FIRST!!! I have never asked anything less from other Audio Format Switch-overs. No free-bee's for any Audio Format in this Economy- are you kidding? I can't afford it, who can??? You guys must be made of money to spend more for less (S.Q.)- all in the name of convenience. This is something that really NO-BODY can afford.

Another dimension of silliness. Always entertaining to read your inane posts, Petty.

In conclusion, I hope all other formats get wiped out and computer audio is all you have. I'm just that kinda guy.

Oh, except for vinyl - because I still love that - and I's gotsta look out fer number one.

Best wishes.

Hfisher3380- I got it! You are not looking out for Music, you are looking out fer number one- yourself. Well, you can hope all that you want to. Computer Audio wiping out all other formats is a self defeating process. If Microsoft won't develop it, who will? No research, no development, limited Music Selection, therefore a NON-Audio Format- what do you really have to "Wipe Out other Formats" with? An attitude like yours spells certain defeat for Computer Audio. I don't think that people are going to accept a Music Selection about half of what they are used to. Shoot, many of them might just give up listening to Music all together- No Selection. Microsoft would be thrilled to replace all of their Music Apps with more Games, Videos, Programs. With Audio made completely redundant, irrelevant what do you need LPs for? MP3, and LPs, that would make a hell of a combination. Transfer your LPs to MP3, and go frisbee throwing at the park with your LPs. You get old, just remember the old days when you used to listen to something else besides MP3. Hey, No Regrets- RIGHT! Best wishes right back. You cherry pick Vinyl (More Power to you), but want to deny anyone else the ability to chose their own Formats (Absolute Power to you corrupting absolutely). No one should have to tolerate that. My guess is they eventually won't! They will get tired of you being in charge- REAL FAST!!! The conclusion of THAT (With Computer Audio) will not be pretty. We can avoid that ugliness, and still keep Computer Audio- along with other Audio Formats. Of course if you want to carry your ugly attitude with you to the grave (And drag Computer Audio down with you)- knock yourself out! Just don't flatter yourself, it is beneath you (Six Feet Under).

PettyO,

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. You should cut and paste your answers as they are always the same.

The art of the paragraph is lost on you. Rather like the possibility that computer audio is offering you more than you realise. I feel sad for you. If only you spent less time worrying about sunspots and more time listening.

Wow Petty - you're not very good at spotting obvious sarcasm.

Look, it's very simple. You started this thread almost a year ago and it has stretched 7 pages. People have honestly tried to help you and steer you straight, you just haven't listened. You are impossible to talk to and reason with. Not only that, you're all talk and no action. As I said somewhere on page 2, if you're this miffed at computer audio then YOU DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. You have been complaining for a year now. I hate complainers!!!

One year later you're as befuddled as you were at the beginning. You are a fool, plain and simple. Either that or you're a troll and we're the fools - hard to tell...

much ado about nothing. signed wm. s.

...And you don't wear any sarcasm (Aimed toward you) very well either- Hfisher3380. Your attempt to "STEER" people straight is the "Do all, End All" of what is wrong with Computer Audio. We are people not cattle, and we are not here for your "STEERING" amuzement. Someone stands up to it, and you are SHOCKED/AMAZED/OFFENDED! I'm sorry, but I find this just too "RICH" for my blood. "You just never listen", YOU have never listened to the number of times I have told you I LISTEN to Computer Audio. This has never been about adopting a New Format. It has always been about you demanding the authority to force everyone to eliminate other Formats. WHY SHOULD YOU CARE- what Audio Formats others listen to? It is no business of yours! When others want Computer Audio along with CD- YOU COMPLAIN AD NAUSEUM! You cajole, insult, steer, and try to force others to use Computer Audio as ONLY/LAST resort. Oh, but we can keep our Vinyl with your royal permission- THANK YOU VERY MUCH! You have a very serious Napoleon Complex with ALL Audio, especially Computer Audio. You must live in a fantasy world where your King Dictator ordering everyone around. IT IS NO BUSINESS OF YOURS WHAT FORMATS I LISTEN TO- IT NEVER WAS!!! Your attitude is what makes me dread Computer Audio, and is a bigger threat to All Audio. Seven pages, and you still think it is about Audio Formats? Seven pages, and you still haven't got it- it's about YOU dictating our purchasing choices to US! Seven pages- this is SAD!!! This is much to do about my freedom to make my own purchasing decisions. Step down from your Thrown, grow up, and get real!

Petty, gosh how I wish I had the power you are granting me!!

But alas, unfortunately you're just giving me too much credit...somebody buy this man a cookie! I truly do appreciate the flattery...