Should Sound Quality of Computer Audio be improved

I'm going to make this short, and sweet. I do not want to see this Thread going to 8 pages. Calling it quits here. Tried to stand up to defend me making my own purchasing decisions. I am looking at 7 pages of failure at this attempt. Fighting a losing cause, beating a dead horse- here. Haven't even found one person who agrees that individuals should be able to chose their own Audio Formats, not group think- or by Committee. Surrendering my sword on this issue. If this Post is declined, don't bother sending me a notification (Really, after I have just surrendered?). I don't get it, and I never will.

Petty o,

"Haven't even found one person who agrees..."

I wonder why? Maybe you should read something into it? 7 pages of you not listening to any advice or experience from others. You don't get it because you never understood what others where trying to explain because you only listened to yourself.

It's all fine. You will still get great music and great quality for many years to come yet. I may even miss those ranting and long replies with no paragraphs.

Happy listening and don't let those sunspots worry you too much.

C'mon guys - gotta make it to page 8! Don't give up now!!

As long as the recording process keeps getting worse and worse, or stays the same for some genres of music, it will sound like crud. The root is just badly mastered music. You can have a menial Computer Audio set-up (PC-DAC-AMP) for under $500 and if you put a well made Joe Jackson album on it will sound pretty damn good.

Was just remarking at the barrage of high res releases at HDTracks and Qobuz - thought it is time to resurrect this legendary thread!

Has there ever been a better time for high res digital audio? Just purchased 15 Rush albums for less than $100 dollars - even in the headiest days of SACD/DVDa this sum would have bought me no more than 3 albums.

Surely if Petty is still around he can at least admit he was wrong about this?

You've just reopened Pandora's Box.

Yeah - was getting bored - need me another dose of Petty. Really, though...I've just been noticing the huge amount of high res releases over the past few months and it made me think back to this thread...

Agreed. Lots of them critters making their way to your PC. I also noticed in the new Audio Advisor catalog the new NAD CD Rip-N-Spin-Play that can be used with their own storage base but seems to be limited to 24/96. But, the big sell is look-ma-no-computer! Kinda like the Parasound model that came out before it but has lower resolution capabilities but goes for less than twice the price.

It won't be long before this, and prices, settle down and some kind of format wins out. I'll still wait.

All the best,
Nonoise

Hurray this thread still lives!

Volcati, the studio equipment today is way more capable than anything available to Joe Jackson in his day. The mastering process is blamed for many terrible things, but as in anything it's how it's done. Unfortunately they tend to aim at sounding good on small speakers. I.e car/radio etc.

Trust me, you guys don't need another dose. I have always said that I use Computer Audio, and probably always will. I just don't like anyone forcing me to limit myself to only one Audio Format ie: "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads". I am starting to see an explosion of 180 gram Re-issues. With CD out of the ring, that leaves LP vs. Computer Audio. They will compete for market share (As I have always said once CD is gone). You guys know better, so you tell me who is the winner. Just want to know so that I don't waste my money on the loser.
Does Computer Audio have its sights on LP next? License to Kill? Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads. Do we now Download onto a Vinyl Disk? Yes? Hello?
Yes? So much for those wanting LP and Computer Audio. Well, I guess you have a lot to talk about so I will just be on my way. I was never here (Shhhh!). Pull the trigger! Pull the trigger! For once no sweat off of me. I will sit this one out, and just watch this psycho family rip itself apart-
once the dying starts. Someone is going to lose another Audio Format. Who will it be? It is not what I wanted, but there it is. Someone has Blood Lust in their eyes, and it ain't me- so don't go there! This is someone else's doing. I'm just along for the ride AGAINST my own will at everyone else's whim. I wash my hands, after all it is CONVENIENT! I
am subject to your whim, perfectly harmless, so try to go a little easy. It ain't me that you have to worry about. It
might be Mr. Hyde you see in the mirror that you really have to worry about. I tried to tell everyone to go easy on the dose, and not to overdo it- remember? So, how is the hang-over hanging? Me, I'm left with an ever shrinking Music Market of collapsing options. Music selection splintered to the four winds of the Internet. Never going to find my Music again. Splintered into a thousand pieces.
Thought it was supposed to be the C.I.A., not the Music Market. You have had your six!

PEtty,

I draw the line between owning my own music, which includes it physically residing on premises with me. I do not trust storing my information, even my music on "the cloud". PEople should be wary of that, especially with important or valuable files they own, unless they do not care about not having access to their things they payed for should an external connection go down.

I also want to own physical copies of my source material, CD, lp, whatever format, as well, should my file server or home network not be available for some reason.

Of course, if the power goes out, we are all screwed, although one can still enjoy their lp cover art and maybe even CD if their eyes are young and good enough to see it.

CD's used to be Remastered by Professional Recording Studios, and sold by major labels. Instead now we are required to download a Music File, and burn a CD in our garages. We used to have centralized location of Music Inventory, purchase then take home. Now inventory is splintered amongst many sources for Music Downloads. Unless you search many sources you are more than likely going to miss a Music Release. CD Music selection is dwindling with very rare used CD's going for hundreds of
dollars on the market. All of this is a result of the CD
vs Computer Audio competition. Computer Audio won, we see what happened to CD afterwards.
Now it will be LP vs Computer Audio. Should I be shocked to expect the exact same result with LP? Do we follow "Soon all new Music will only be available as Music
Downloads" to its ultimate conclusion? Are we waisting our
money in an LP resurgence? Can't have it both ways, which is it?

This is like talking to Alex Jones. What's the point? Sales of CDs are down. CDs that everyone already has a copy of. CDs of music that are no longer selling. Boo hoo.

I don't listen to all music, just the music I like. It has been rare, if ever, that I couldn't get a CD and it wasn't with any selection of popular music: it was with some one off recording from an esoteric label. Also, I live in the present and don't need a another reissue of older pop music, rock, blues, whatever. Chance are good that I didn't care much for it anyway. But that's me.

There are boatloads of new artists coming out on CDs as it is still a viable medium. They see it is a cheaper and easier way of getting out their music since not everyone has a computer but most everyone has a way to play a CD.

LPs and SACDs are reissuing more and more as time goes on as well. Recently, I emailed Acoustic Sounds and asked it they could look into doing a certain SACD recording of a group I like and they expressed interest in it, passed it on to the engineer, and thanked me. They've already done one remaster of this group recently and need feedback from listeners.

It's not as bad as it's being made out to be. Someone sees a chart or graph and the next thing you know the sky is falling. The premise of computer audio taking over is a false one.

All the best,
Nonoise

Everyone knows that LP died in 1982 When Cd's took over

Come on- Guys! There ARE 10,000 CD Releases currently out of print. This doesn't even come close to reflecting what you are saying- Nonoise! Again, if I want to try something
new a CD release different from what I currently own ( And it is one of those 10,000 from the past with no release available as download ) I am just screwed? Boo-hoo, just live without my Music right? This is NOT CDs that everyone
already has a copy of. Please, let someone answer that can at least add. The CD Music Selection deficit is 10,000, and
growing. This is verified from those who still sell CDs- the horses mouth. Don't bury your head in the other end of the horse, and pretend otherwise.
LP never died. Many still use LP, and Computer Audio.
Many even burn a copy of their LPs onto a Music File. Apparently many Major Labels ( and Music Artists ) are creating this resurgence in LP. There has to be at least a
hundred Re-issues in 180 Gram- harder material.
My major question still remains: Do you follow "Soon
all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads" to
its ultimate conclusion? That means giving up LPs for
Computer Audio. That means that you cannot have both! Is
everyone willing to do this? I just want to know so that I don't waste money on the wrong Format. If you are going to dictate to me which Format I will be allowed to use, take a little respondsibility to provide some clarity on this issue. I'm just trying to avoid Formats that go bust (ie.
SACD ). Which goes bust here LP resurgence, or Computer Audio. You guys are steering this thing. How about giving the rest of us some direction?

News Alert:

CNN just reported that Thomas Pettyofficer was arrested by a SWAT team after a rescue raid at his home Tuesday night. The video showed him being wheeled out of his house on a gurney in a straight jacket and strapped down with several very thick chains locked with large padlocks. I couldn't make out exactly what he was yelling, because there were too many 'bleeps' in between words, but I clearly heard him say the following words: "operating systems", "death of the format", "they don't care about high resolution audio", "new music only available through downloads" and "give us some direction here".

The reporter on the scene stated that Mr. Pettyofficer had kidnapped Bill Gates and several Apple executives earlier in the day and had been holding the men captive until the SWAT team rescued them 8 hours later. All the hostages said that Pettyofficer was mocking, berating and lecturing them on his perceived deficiencies in their companies' operating systems, especially their lack of attention to high resolution audio capabilities.

After a thorough search of the premises, police discovered several audio engineers from Sony and Phillips locked in the basement. They claimed they were abducted in the 1980's. Pettyofficer alledgedly told them: "You jerks can all go home as soon as you brainiacs make my cd player sound just like my turntable and vinyl, but better and forever." All of these older captives claimed they were also subjected to berating and lecturing by Pettyofficer for supposed design failings constantly during their 30 year captivity.
One of these engineers, ironically, said he had so much time on his hands that he created a new operating system that ideally supports the playing and downloading of high resolution audio formats. He said, since it works on both mac and pc computers, the price may need to be increased to up to $10.

All hostages were released unharmed, with only minor bruises to their egos.

Just thought you guys/gals would want to know about these less than surprising developments.

Tim

So what you are really saying is YOU don't have an answer to my question. You could have just said that from the beginning, and saved everyone a whole lot of reading. Repeat after me....I...DON'T...KNOW. If you don't know then you haven't a clue when you say "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads"- do you??? I am just trying to save myself from throwing away tons of money on a defunct audio Format. You are trying to do.....what??? Shoot your own credibility in the foot?
Nice shooting slick!

It is obvious that those leading us down the path of "Soon
all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads", have no answers/ no direction/ splintered selection/ no research-development support from major Labels or major Computer Manufacturers. Customer support being supplied by other (Just as stupid) unreliable/ unaccountable OTHER CUSTOMERS! This isn't a New Audio Format, it is a TRAIN WRECK! Are you guys struggling to look at the bright side of a Train Wreck? Why are you selling yourself short, why are you selling the rest of us short? I would really enjoy using Computer Audio if this industry actually showed some
small amount of respect for its customers. I see nothing, but disdain from this industry- and disdain from other customers supporting this industry. Why am I NOT surprised?
Computer Audio is not ready, and never will be due to being held back by the industry- and being held back by the egos of its supporting customers. This Audio Format is a JOKE!
The so-called Convenience, another JOKE! I AM NOT LAUGHING!
You want this Audio Format to be taken seriously, how about
treating it seriously. Only then, maybe will it be ready for
"Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads". Otherwise, you will be saying that 20 years from now still waiting for it to happen. Talk about being guillable! ACTUALLY sell me on the idea of Computer Audio,
instead of trying it by Rook or by Crook. I am not impressed, and not so easily fooled either. What does it do for me? The same as other previous Audio Formats- hardly!
Maybe THAT would be a good place to start.

This thread gives new and insightful meaning to circular reasoning.

PO, your conclusion is based on your premise and made to seem valid by the use of some factual tidbits that can stand apart from your premise. Your argument can be reduced to: "Computer audio is dead because computer audio is dead".
Then: "Try to convince me otherwise."

I'm outta here!!!!

All the best,
Nonoise

Great idea, Nonoise. Now try and apply some of that same analysis of circular logic to "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads". Such a saying can only be true if everyone choses to make it so ( ie: abandon
resurgence in LP Playback of 180 Gram Re-issues or abandon
LP Playback entirely ). Which remains standing Computer Audio, or LP Playback? Round and round we go- which is it?
This is making everyone dizzy, so choose!

LMFAO Noble100.

Pettyofficer,

Relax. My report on your despicable behavior was just my lame attempt at infusing a little humor in this long and dour thread. I was just having a little fun and meant no offense.

But I do think I may have some insight into why computer audio is causing you so much grief and frustration. My thought is that you are looking for structure, set guidelines and an established roadmap of future developments amongst the current confusion and uncertainty of computer audio.

Unfortunately for you and probably many others, the entire computer audio industry and technology is currently in its relatve infancy, especially when compared to the more established audio technologies such as vinyl and cds. Vinyl, in my view, is like the wise older gentleman who's been around the block a few times and has it mainly all figured out. CD is like a young college student who has just begun to figure things out and has a ways to go until this is done completely. Computer audio is like a child just beginning to develop and mature.

You seem to be seeking clarity and order amid the chaos and confusion that is the current state of computer audio. Too many issues remain unsettled; such as the optimum recording and playback bit depth and sample rate. Is 24/192 really audibly better than 24/96? How does DSD fit into the picture and is it really superior to PCM?

And then, of course, there's the biggest question of all that everyone's been asking themselves lately: How in the heck did you get out of jail so quickly?

My suggestion is to relax, sit back and let things progress and shake out a bit. Eventually, the best methods of attaining great sound via computers will emerge and become more established. The roadmap will become clear. Attempts to speed up its progression or influence its direction are probably futile.

In the meantime, you may want to do the following:

1. Concentrate your thoughts and efforts on those things you can control.

2. Don't waste your time and energy on those things you cannot control.

3. Develop the wisdom and ability to know the difference.

Wishing you the best,

Tim

PO,

for all your talk I still have no idea what on earth you are talking about?

"No support from major record companies"? You are wrong yet again.

Your premis is as daft as your sunspot fears. Stop posting this nonsense. You sound like the people who were afraid of trains going faster than 30 mph back in the beginning of the steam era.

About 7 pages ago I thought you were missing something and maybe I or someone else could guide or help in some way. I now realise you miss the ability to listen or see another point of view. You are so fixed in your idea about bloody format this and format that, and Microsoft ruining audio and so on that it is impossible to get through to you. You just repeat the same silliness even when the facts have been explained to you by multiple people in multiple posts.

You have failed to see the possibility. The flexibility, the ability to play, or convert absolutely anything within 1 machine. The quality can be as good as the recording. You are pretty much able to play the master as it was originally encoded. A perfect copy. So please stop this nonsense.

"So what you are really saying is YOU don't have an answer to my question. You could have just said that from the beginning, and saved everyone a whole lot of reading. Repeat after me....I...DON'T...KNOW. If you don't know then you haven't a clue when you say "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads"- do you??? "

Huh?

We don't have an answer?

We've been answering for 7 pages. You just choose not to listen.

To All Concerned- News Flash! I DO use Computer Audio; because, I don't listen???
Chadeffect: Of course I am confused when I see the entire collection of the Beattles re-issued on 180 gram LP. This, and many other famous Musicians. I don't think that this is being done without support from the Major Record Companies, or the Artists themselves. "You have failed to see the possibility...". A possibility of soon to be AS current Music Selection in CD is evaporating rapidly. Get your head out of the clouds, and put the download Music Selection on the table where I can actually buy it TODAY! Only then will we negotiate the final departure from CD, LP, etc.
Noble 100: You make my entire case by your own words, and standards. Computer Audio is still too immature, or still in its infancy. So what the hell are we doing tasking an infant ( With Limited Music Selection ) to instantly fill the shoes of a rapidly disappearing CD Format? We are already more than half the way of getting rid of CD Music Selection while the infant still cannot step in to fill the void ( And might not be able to do so for quite sometime ). What do we use to listen to in the meantime, HARSH LANGUAGE?
There is no chaos, or confusion. It is clear as a bell.
Ever since the beginning of the demise of CD Format Music Selection has taken a nose dive. Only thing remotely trying to fill this void is MP3 Downloads. The Selection IS NOT THERE! The Music IS NOT THERE in CD, or Music Downloads. I am worried because I don't believe our Music Archive will survive the chaos, and confusion, of this completely mismanaged Format turnover. The chaos, and confusion is in the execution of this turnover. I am just a simple Music Lover who does the math, and comes up short every single time: NO LONGER AVAILABLE AS CD, AND NOT YET AVAILABLE AS MUSIC DOWNLOAD! Do we end up with: NO LONGER AVAILABLE AS CD / LP, AND STILL NOT YET AVAILABLE AS MUSIC DOWNLOAD?
Yes, I am concerned about the road we are taking- and how it will limit what Music I have available TODAY! LP vs. Computer Audio ( LP loses ) what will be left to listen to tomorrow? Infant is going to have to get off his lazy butt
sometime if he ever expects to carry the load.
It is the complete disregard for this issue that is most disconcerning. It is also how your estimates absolutely
do not match reality as it is today. You are way off. It just seems like you all desire an enlarging Void of Music Selection as motivation to force others to switch Formats. The risk is great that by doing so, you make listening to Audio Music completely irrelevant! Why continue if every single one of my favorite Artists is no longer available on a defunct Format, and not ever likely to be available on a New Format? I guess harsh language will be the only thing left to listen to. Don't need to waste money on a New Format for that! This switchover is completely WRONG by every measure of all other Audio Format switchovers. We are supposed to do without Music till the little infant gets its act together ( If Ever )? Where is the accountability, and where is the respondsibility? I want all of my Music available T-O-D-A-Y! Yesterday it was available, today it is not. GIVE IT BACK!!! Only then should anyone even remotely consider "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads". Hell of a lot easier to say it than it will be to ever make it happen. You have alot of work ahead of you, better get busy. Instead, you are just sitting on your thumbs haggling with me. You expect everything to happen to you in a vacuum. Twenty years from now you will still be hoping that it happens. That is an awful long "Soon...", don't you think? I will believe it when I see it. You just don't have a lot to show for it T-O-D-A-Y, and nothing but hot air to show for it T-O-M-O-R-R-O-W. Sorry if confidence appears a little low today. This is your plan, take some respondsibility for it. I am just stuck trying to deal with it. It is NOT providing me the Music, DEAL with the valid criticism instead of criticizing me ( For once ). You are not fooling anyone with your silly distractions from the serious issues facing this New Format.
Go ahead anyways it is always what you do. Seven pages of nothing, but distractions as a means to avoid dealing with the real issues of lack in MUSIC AVAILABILITY. Yours is to distract, deny, obfuscate...etc. I KNOW what is available to buy, and YOU don't have it to sell...it is THAT simple.
Nothing you have said so far has changed that, and your lack of desire to even address/ change this situation is self evident! In twenty years we will still be dealing these same issues, unless Computer Audio will be replaced with something else- and then YOU will be struggling to hold onto your Music Archive. I wish you luck!

Pettyofficer,

I understand, a bit more clearly now after your last post, that your main concern is the pace of music releases available as digital downloads being too slow. Your perception is that the transition from LP and CD to digital downloading needs to be better managed and quicker.

IMO, these are legitimate concerns. I'm a new convert to digital audio and I'm learning more every day. I just downloaded the JRiver app, on a free 30 day trial basis, and have only ripped about 5 of my cds to my laptop. I still need to purchase a good inexpensive DAC( to start at least) and am looking into the best method for incorporating my laptop into my main home system. I'll probably be sharing your concerns, once I begin downloading music in earnest, soon enough.

Although I 'm a newbee to computer audio, I am definitely not a newbee to home audio. When I bought my first system about 40 yrs ago, LPs were the preferred source and you needed a good turntable and cartridge. The main topics of discussion then were whether you should use a direct-drive or belt-drive turntable and should you get a moving magnet or moving coil cartridge.

In the 1980s, CDs came out promising 'perfect sound forever'. I remember this transition well. Most of us were curious and gave it a try. Eliminating the clicks, pops. warps, groove wear & tear and static of LPs seemed like a dream come true. The big issue became which sounded better and whether you were going to buy your next new music on LP or CD. Music was readily available on both formats, even cassette tape, for several years until CDs predominated and the older technologies passed the torch to them.

As I recall, there were many complaints of the "digititis" of the CD sound, which usually meant overly bright, with hard edges, and less smoothness and less natural/organic sounding when compared to LPs. This led to a resurgence in the LP format that has lasted to this day.

My point is that format transitions are not new to home audio. I haven't even described the transitions of 78 rpm records to 33 1/3rd rpm albums, mono to stereo and many others.

The best response for your concerns I can offer is to be patient. I know this response will not be satisfying or sufficient for you. You feel that you have committed to digital audio and downloading content but the 'powers that be' have not made a similar commitment to this new format, or at least not quickly enough. By being patient I mean, although you may not realize it or think they are moving too slowly, the 'powers that be' are paying attention and are determining which format they should invest their money into.

The beauty of capitalism is that it actually works. Those of us who are music lovers and believe in computer audio and downloaded high-rez music files are not powerless. We vote constantly with our money on what hardware and software we prefer. Suppliers, whether we're aware of it or not, are paying close attention.

Now for the important questions: what inexpensive ($300 or less) dac should I buy, what's the best way to hook it up to my preamp and what type of file/resolution should I use to download?

Rhetorical questions, I'm sure there are plenty of discussions and threads to read for answers to my questions.

Enjoy,

Tim

PO,
Nothing is stopping you from buying any format. All formats can be converted into anything you like. Even the 180g vinyl. This is what you don't seem to be getting. Any and all formats are viable to you. As things settle ultimately everything will be a file. For sure all music you are considering at some point in the process is a computer file. Those remasters have all been transferred to a computer to be cleaned and stored.

So your point is mute. Anything you want you can have. If you want to use your computer? Wow then great. If you want to listen to a CD? Great listen to it. You can rip the CD to your HD or whatever you like. Flexible. SACD? well they are being used via computers too now with latest DAC supporting DSD etc. HD downloads etc etc all good. Enjoy. Stop worrying.

Petty Officer,
It seems that the data out there was aways open to interpretation. Even a totally objective determination can only conclude what is currently happening making any forecast a guess, at best.

Here is another bit of data that contradicts the doom that some have been shopping around: http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/06/03/2012-music-sales-are-up-or-is-that-down/
and
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/the-return-of-cds-and-vinyl-records-060313.html

It was bound to happen since any trend is merely that, a trend, and not a harbinger or omen. At my recent visit to the Newport Audio show, I picked up a couple of MA Recording CDs and browsed other vendors. Computer Audio was there but not as forcefully touted as the last time. There were also enough CDPs being used as well, not to mention all the TTs. There's always going to be something for everyone.

All the best,
Nonoise

Strongly disagree Chadeffect. There is a clear difference from a Major Label Remastering in a Professional Recording
Studios (With Equipment perhaps costing hundreds of thousands), and burning a CD in your garage. You seem to think that Downloading a Music File is the equivalent of owning your own Professional Recording Studios. Even if this were so, what layman would even have the skill to mix,
produce, or Remaster even with Professional equipment. Some of us would prefer spending more time listening to Music instead of being tasked to produce it. Call us lazy,
we used to pay someone else to produce our Music for us. Now we have to pay extra for the equipment (And the priviledge) of producing our own Media. We didn't used to be tasked, now we are tasked and paying out the nose for it. Why the huge shift DOWN in ease of use in Audio Formats? Who makes the huge profit in shifting the production cost onto the shoulders of the end user- the CUSTOMER? They are still charging us the same for CD, or
Download. Only now you pay twice. Once for the Download, and again for the equipment to burn to CD- not to mention the added time and tasking involved. In the end we are paying way more for the same Music. Some of us can add. Some of us can even count what is limited availability as Download. "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads", that means ALL other Formats (CD,LP) go
by the wayside. Some of us can even read. The Music used to serve us, now we serve the Music- and pay more for the
priviledge (With less selection no less). ENOUGH is ENOUGH!

PO,

Disagree with what? Major record label? Why do you always make things so complicated?

You don't seem to understand what I am saying. Whatever format you want or have the music on, can all be stored (copied) onto your computer while retaining the old format you so love. So just buy the CDs you are fond of. Then at anytime you can play either the CD in your player or the copy on your HD.

Surely you can rip your CDs? No recording studio, producers, remixers, mastering etc needed! Ripping CDs via a computer does it on its own (automated) with the exception of possible setting of preferences. You think a pro studio wouldn't rip a CD due to the quality of the rip? I could tell you some stories...

You will be able to do the same ripping process with an SACD too. Ok to record your TT set up takes a little more skill and an investment in a ADDA and some software maybe, but its not impossible either.

A friend of mine brought over some copies he made from his TT to a mid priced pro CDR not long ago. The sound was excellent. Surprisingly so.

If you are concerned about losing music/finding catalogues, the solution is plain. Then when you feel the future is safe enough for you to use your computer only, you will have all your collection anyway. Nicely digitally stored and archived ready for playback and all your vinyl, SACDs and CDs safe in their covers. Why don't you understand this? You need no skills. A five year old could do it.

"Why don't you understand this? You need no skills. A five year old could do it."

I think this pretty well sums it up for me...nicely said!

Nice try guys!
Chadeffect: Am I going to have to argue the old which came first the chicken (CD) , or the Egg (Music File)? I will say it one more time: 10,000 CD Releases are currently OUT OF PRINT! Not available for CD purchase! Not available to be copied onto your Computer! Not even available as Download! This is a Music Archive that will BE GONE, and not available for storage on the hard drive of your computer. Do I just type "OUT OF PRINT AND NOT AVAILABLE AS DOWNLOAD" on every empty Music File where these 10,000 would normally be stored on my Computer? I am sure that these 10,000 music files will have excellent convenience, and High Fidelity to boot! WHO-ARE-YOU-KIDDING???
Hfisher3380: You are Correct! It does take someone OLDER than 5 years old to understand the full consequences of what I just stated above. You are taking away (ELIMINATING) Music Archive (10,000 CDs) and "NOT REPLACING IT" (Downloads). Can't store, copy onto Computer something (10,000) that no longer exists. You want us to dig thru garbage cans scrounging for ANY ONE of these long gone 10,000 so we can copy onto our Computers??? If we can't do so ( because they are both "Out Of Print", and "Not Available As Download" X 10,000 ) ask a 5 year old to fill the Music Archive Vacuum with what- harsh language ( No Offense to Rap)!
Nawwwww, I think you guys owe this 5 year old his Music Archive back! He used to have it, then you guys came along with your convenience, now he no longer has it! GIVE US OUR MUSIC BACK! Stop holding our Music Archive hostage to "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads"; because, most Music will NOT be left available on ANYTHING permanently if left up to you. Your Music Archive Kung-Fu NO GOOD! We have less Music to listen to today, we will have less to listen to tomorrow ( -CD, Soon all New Music...etc. ) which means we will even have less the day after tomorrow. PUT THE MUSIC DOWNLOAD ARCHIVE ON THE TABLE TO SELL, or just get your lazy Music Format the hell out of the way. It is just slowing everyone down! If it can't provide, then it can only drag us down with it. Why doesn't anyone understand that? I bet even a 5 year old could! Try Rollerskating with a 100 pound dead weight tied around your neck. Does Computer Audio become that 100 pound dead weight- your decision! If you decide it is acceptable- I find that condition unacceptable! You are responsible, you change it. If you don't then Computer Audio will have a real short life span. Folks, this is NOT what I want. I want multiple options in having access to Music Archives. You want to be in the business of severely limiting my access with only one Format. You shoot across my bow, I am going to respond in kind. You are taking something away from me that "YOU THINK" you have the right to take. Regardless if it comes to pass ,or not! The Threat of doing so is enough, and I have had enough of it! I do take your threats seriously ( 10,000 times over ). I wouldn't call "THAT" a joke! I call it a hell of a lot of permanently missing music. You guys don't really intend on replacing all of it with downloads- do you? I didn't think so! Nice to know that you are looking out for my Musical Interests- REALLY??? Am I supposed to enjoy the convenience of silence from missing Music? About as much as you would enjoy the silence from lack of hearing. You would fight for it all right if you got the chance. Me, I have an appointment with a five year old- apparently. Hope he can play guitar, or some musical instrument. Can't rely on anything else!

I did some calculations and estimate it would take me 5-7 years or more just to listen to every recording I already own once. Then on top of that there are hundreds of digital music sources externally like internet radio stations and music services that I can go to as well if I get bored. And it all sounds pretty darn good!

So at least when the music available dries up I should still be set for life with stuff to listen to. It's my proverbial "bomb shelter" as it were.

Petty, if you have not already, better get busy and build up your stash too before the well runs dry! :^)

Mapman: Finally, after 8 pages of diatribe, someone acknowledges our Music Archive IS drying up/ being purposely eliminated- Thank-you!!! You have done your calculations well. Now you just need to expand your estimation to include the other 600 million of us who probably listen to Music Archive that is different from your selection. Let's say you discover a Music Artist that you weren't aware of ( say the 80's or 90's ), and you don't have any of his releases. Let's say he is one of those 10,000 "No Longer In Print"/ "Not Available As Download"- and you really like his Music. Maybe you heard one of his selections on the Radio. His MUSIC IS GONE! It got swept away with "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads". "All New Music..." does NOT
mean "All Music" period. Now what if there are a handful of Artists ( Same thing ), or a couple dozen?
As far as building up a stash before the well runs dry. I did not have to do this switching from LP to CD, nor on any other Audio Format switch-over. There is something seriously wrong here having to do this with this particular
switch-over to Computer Audio. I am not the one at fault! It is how this switch-over is being handled- with complete disregard for preserving Musical Archive. Nothing that I, or anyone else can do about the already 10,000 missing. Pretty much the same for the next 10,000, or the next 10,000 after that! Why are we being forced to build "Bomb Shelters" to try and save our Musical Archive??? Who is bombing our Musical Archive, for what profit, and why?
"Eyes Wide Open", or is this "Eyes Wide Shut"? You decide-
and give me a clue as to direction if you please ( LP or Computer Audio )? Hurry before the first bombs start to drop, if you wouldn't mind. Call me crazy, but missing Music IS A PROBLEM!!! Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that they are not out to get you. Hit me with your best shot, and fire away. Ask anyone, I am just a nut high on drugs (Rhetorical )!

Petty - such is life and it has nothing to do with anyone in this chat group.

Whom do you blame for the thousands of analogue recordings that never made it onto CD? For the 78rpm records that never survived to see the light of day as LPs? This is just the natural order of things. If there is demand then there is money to be made. If there is money to be made then the product will be manufactured and sold.

Simple. Any 5-year old could understand it. That's the world we live in. You just can't handle the truth...

In practice, I think it is easier to find out of print material these days than ever. And for reasonable cost. You just gotta go used in many cases via ebay or similar.

Out of print is out of print. A lot of old stuff with any current market value does get re-released, in some cases as original package (often extended in some way) or in some totally new package, like "the essential so and so...", etc. Its really not a problem in practice I find so I will not loose any sleep. Most of the old out of print stuff that I must have I already do. In cases otherwise, I have not had problems finding it. Yawn....

Pettyofficer,

Just wanted to add on to what Mapman said and your concern over the 10,000 out of print cds. If downloads are the future, I would think the copy rights owners of those 10,000 cds would be very tempted to rerelease many of these as downloads if there is enough demand. And these downloads may be higher resolution than the original cds depending on how the master was recorded. I'm not saying this will definitely happen but I think the financial incentive may be too strong to resist in many cases.

Hope this eases some of your concerns

Mapman has said it PO! Unlike any other time in history it is probably easier to track down limited availability records & CDs. Whether out of print or not. You can worry about the number 10,000 but its normal.

You could type "out of print and not available as download" if you like, but most sane people would go to specialist sites or contact collectors with a more focused question. Maybe something like " I'm looking for deleted catalogue from Sony jazz record labels" etc.

I find it mind boggling you have this idea it's a format issue. As I have said a thousand times to you now the format is IRRELEVANT. You take which ever rare recording you find & store it digitally. Done. Saved. No sunspots.

As for the market, its how it has always been. Some recordings survive some don't, some get rereleased on compilations and licensed and so on. Do detective work.

But how is this effecting you? Do you want to listen to every record just because it exists?

If you were REALLY the kind of person who CARED about this, you would have built an archive like some people i know and become a resource for rare & difficult to find records. There are many online. Some not totally legal for obvious reasons but enthusiasts. There are some stunning classical archives to be found.

As someone mentioned in an earlier post " what about 78rpm?" In fact I would add that many rare 78 recordings have been saved by being digitized! Many having the noise removed and cleaned of pops and scratches too. How could you complain? You complain because you have made little effort to look or understand by the sounds of it. Chicken or egg indeed? No chicken or egg, no effort, no listening, no idea. Plenty of ranting though.

I find your arguments uninformed. You deflect and never answer or acknowledge good information posted to and for you. But I don't even detect you are playing games. I feel you actually believe what you are posting which is even more worrying!

If you ACTUALLY want to get an definitive answer. Lets do this, put your questions as bullet points rather than long winded rants without paragraphs. I.e Should I worry archiving my CDs to harddrive makes these back ups vulnerable to sunspot damage and data loss? Then you will get clear answers. Then you could reply by saying "Thank you. I have read this xxxxx which seems to prove..." Then we could have a clear adult discussion.

Guys, it is simple math! How can you possibly get it wrong? At one time ( Prior to Computer Audio becoming popular ) you could get just about anything on CD. Today it is very questionable getting it on CD, and any question at all about not being available as download. What has changed? Access to our Music Archive is now being strangled when before it wasn't. Coincidence this happens when Computer Audio starts replacing CD? That is the problem: Computer Audio ISN'T keeping up with the job of replacing Music Archive of CD. It is NOT even close!
All of you even admit as much and offer nothing as a solution. "Just suck it up, and live without your Music" -
THAT IS NOT A SOLUTION! It is pathetic, not to mention the pathetic performance of Computer Audio Downloading to produce an available Music Archive. What little is available remains hidden being splintered across the Internet.
"I am not sure that this will definitely happen...", so why risk even permanently losing more Musical Archive than we already currently have lost? We didn't used to have to "Track Down" anything. Why now are we being forced to? Why this particular interference with this particular audio Format of Computer Audio Downloads? This is "CONVENIENCE" being blocked from our Music? Sane people don't drastically execute current access to existing Music Archive for a few "scraps" of Music Selection in a New Format. Tens of thousands of LP Releases didn't suddenly become "Out of Print" when the first few dozen CD selections first came out. CD was tasked to provide a decent selection BEFORE we started switching over.
Just as an observation: I think you Guys are afraid
that Computer Audio Downloads will not be able to live up to the task of providing a decent Musical Archive- not now, not in the next 10 years. "I am not saying this will definitely happen...", I am supposed to risk all of my future access to Music Archive on this??? This doesn't benefit me, who does it benefit? Give up my Music on a permanent basis to save you a few seconds to access your own? We are now in the business of sacrificing our Music on a permanent basis instead of collecting it? This is what you are selling me, and you can't understand why I am not buying it? If I were to "Buy it", I would like to be able to
"Buy it", and not have it "Unavailable as Download"! None of your suggestions gets anyone any closer to being there.
All of your responses rely on persuading someone who simply
"Cannot Add". Unfortunately I can! You can dance around it, and insult me all you want: "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads" simply means a whole hell of a lot less Music available to everyone than previously.
Your Audio Format means the exact same thing. Call me stupid for being aware of what your forcing me to give up- THAT IS THE REAL BOTTOM LINE!!! I wouldn't put up with you Guys one more second, and wade thru the mud flinging, if I didn't really care about Music evaporating on a permanent basis- with nothing physically replacing it except "Snake Oil", "Hot air", and "Fantasy". Real CONVENIENT, just not that RELIABLE in producing Music Selection. I guess the silence of a vacuum can be convenient- unless you really love Music! Are you a Music Lover, or a Computer lover to the exclusion of Music? If not, then what are you? I am simply a Music Lover first when it comes to my Computer requiring me to exclude Music. Sorry if it offends everyone.
Don't flatter yourselves, you make very poor "Used Car" Salesmen. Maybe you should sell shoes instead of Audio Formats. You would make more money that way!

Petty, we're not trying to sell you anything, nor are we trying to restrict your choices of music or format. You're the one who came here asking questions and not listening to the answers.

To put in plain and simple: you're wrong.

Hope you can understand that.

" In fact I would add that many rare 78 recordings have been saved by being digitized!"

I can vouch for that. I've recorded all my family's old 78 RPM records from the 20's and 30's to CD and then ripped the CDs to my music server along with all the rest. I picked up an old Admiral ceramic cart table that plays 78s for $10 at a yard sale to do it. Next best thing to having an authentic restored old Victrola to play these on. Maybe someday. I know of several local sources that restore and sell Victrolas.

Its all doable. Takes a little will and know how mainly. Tougher for old coots like PEtty and me in general, but I am fairly tech savoy for my age, so not a problem.

PO, the computer is a tool to empower you. If you cannot see that best go live in a cave. Yet again you have not paid any attention to the posts saying the opposite to you. I see no one else complaining like you. Haven't you noticed? The real bottom line? A real bottom more like.

Never before has a single device allowed you to play, copy, edit, restore, convert, archive, stream your music. Let alone across multiple formats and probably into formats not even thought of yet.

This is the part I don't understand. You go on about loss but I see no loss. If a CD was made then you can have it or find it. Probably the same for any record or tape of whatever too?

Name the music you cannot find. Tell me which CD you cannot lay your hands on? If you cannot find the download you will find the CD. As for really rare vinyl well no change there. Because if you could not find that record back then you still would have to search as you do today. What is different?

I see. It is a simple case of disbelieving my lying eyes.
"Name the music you cannot find", from the top the people who manufacture, and sell CDs tell me that there are 10,000 out of print. They are lying, you are telling me the truth. I would like to try and listen to anyone of those 10,000. I
would like to try and listen to something that I haven't listened to before. You can't "Name" something that you haven't listened to, or have yet to discover. Now that it is gone, "No longer in Print", and "Not Available as Download" the name is pretty much gone. Nice way of hiding the identity of the victim by dissolving the carcass with acid. Then we play "You can't identify someone from the muck- give me a name"! Can't provide a name, then there was never anyone there. You have got to be kidding! This is nothing more than the old "Switch and Bait". A five year old could see through it!
One question I keep asking that no one is even listening to the question (More or less listening to the answer). Are you guys terrified of answering? Where is my Music Archive that I used to have access to, but no longer have with Music Downloads? Why can nobody add? Ten thousand CDs gone, hardly 10,000 Music Downloads (Not MP3) to replace them.
The Numbers are lying to me, my own eyes are lying to me, CD manufacturers are lying to me, and those that sell CDs are lying to me. Even those who say "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads" are lying about intent to further permanently eliminate CD Music Archive without replacing it! Gee, the only guys in the universe telling the truth are you. How long do you guys intend on carrying on this charade? There is NO INTENT on creating a Music Archive of Music Downloads available. There never was, there never will be, and 10,000 "Out Of Print" therefore U-N-R-I-P-P-A-B-L-E CDs is proof of that! Then there will be the next 10,000, and the next 10,000 after that. Again I can add, but you tell me that the numbers are lying to me. Boy, that is some tool that creates this alternate reality.
Chadeffect: Is the Computer your Tool, or are you a Tool of the Computer being forced to accept an ever shrinking selection of Music Archive? You can't establish
that "Soon All New Music will only be available as Music Downloads" without tossing out a whole hell of a lot of Music. The only alternative is that most of our Music Archive becomes available as Music Downloads. We all know that this is not going to happen in our lifetimes. Enough of the Bull, it is going to be severely shrinking selection from here on out. You are getting rid of 10 times more (CDs) than you are replacing (Downloads). I'm supposed to pretend that I am stupid, and not know where this train is heading? I do know that you guys can see where it is heading. I don't buy that you actually believe this illusion. This shell game of trying to find your Music. All of this "Snake Oil" of massive amounts of Music Downloads just around the bend. You guys have got to be smarter than this. Does "Let The Buyer Beware" even ring a bell? Are you even capable of applying THAT critical eye towards Computer Audio, instead of becoming another tool of Computer Audio? A machine dictates what type of Music you will be allowed to listen to by eliminating what is available at a constantly steady rate. Wow, where can I get me one of those (drool, drool)! You guys really want your pound of flesh in the Music we used to be able to enjoy. Once CD is gone where is the next pound of flesh coming from, Computer Audio or LP? LP is looking a little weak right now, and something is licking its chops. That isn't me, try looking behind you- but you never do! Go ahead and hide in the dark so you can't see what is really eating you- if that is your idea. Sell me on this? REALLY!!! You guys have got to really hate others who enjoy their Music, especially if you want to permanently take it away from them. This isn't an Audio Format Turnover, more like a slaughter house. I am supposed to be stupid, and allow myself to be led to the slaughter. Boy you guys get testy when I raise a ruckus about it- GET OVER YOURSELVES! I am the one being led to slaughter, you think that I don't know it?

Can the administrator stop this before something serious happens?

Petty, you obviously have some pretty serious issues. The problem here is that - as I said somewhere around page 2 or 3 - you're complaining to the wrong people. Most of us here are pretty happy with computer audio and the direction things are heading. Most of us here are savvy enough to get pretty much any music we want, in whatever format we want, and with generally good to excellent sound quality. You on the other hand seem to be incapable.

I would suggest - and I hope you'll listen to me this time - that you take your complaints to those who might be able to do something about it. Or perhaps better still, use your engineering background to help you figure some stuff out. Because I think it is pretty clear that the people here are not going to be able to cure what ails you.

Computer audio definitely ain't perfect - nobody is suggesting that. But the depth and breadth of your problems clearly exceeds our capacity to help you.

Best of luck!

Am I missing something here? This is like the Monty python argument clinic sketch. " Did you come here for the 1minute argument or the 5 minute argument?"

" that's not an argument, you are just contradicting me...No I'm not"

PO, get some treatment.

Chadeffect,

Great reference. I remember that Monty Python skit well and it's an apt analogy to this thread.

I wish Pettyofficer well but I can't help thinking that something beyond computer downloading is upsetting him. Wife/girlfriend left him?.....Dog died? I'm not sure but it may be something like that. But it's none of my business, of course, so I'll just wish him well.

Tim

Indeed Chad - that is EXACTLY what is going on here! Good pick-up!

I can't help thinking that something beyond computer downloading is upsetting him.

Ain't nuthin' that 3 fingers uh Wil' Turkey cain't cure!!!

Nonoise- something serious like you're going to have a heart attack? Are you that sensitive?
Hfisher3380- I work for a living. Other people pay me for my savvy. In my Music Enjoyment, being savvy means doing less searching for Music so I can spend more of my valuable time actually listening to it. The Music Format serves me, because I am the one paying for the service- not the other way around as you would prefer. Paying to service the Audio Format is hardly "Savvy".
Chadeffect- A whole lot of noise signifying nothing.
Noble100- Ditto!
Hfisher3380- Ditto again!
Swampwalker- I can't help thinking that you would prefer a watered down version uh Wil'Turkey. Why settle for a watered down Music Selection of Computer Audio Downloading? You would be really upset if they watered down your drink, because "No one is really interested in the quality of anything anymore". It is lame to apply that kind of standard to anything we purchase, including Music.
No hidden agendas here folks. Just a guy who sees a lot less Music Selection/ Archive available for purchase. This is the price your Format imposes with "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads". That can only mean no LPs, and no CDs. You are trying to argue out of both sides of your mouth around that stated goal. I clearly see the contradiction, and my Music is suffering because of it. Ten Thousand Music Releases "No Longer in Print in CD", and "Not Available as Music Downloads". This is not imaginary either, and easily confirmable with Manufacturers of CDs. Even Wil'Turkey cain't cure that, watered down or not! I am talking to the right people, because this is the standard you set/ accept for Computer Audio Downloads. My argument is that I set a higher bar for my Music Formats. Your lower bar is just unacceptable for my needs. Why must I lower the bar in Music Archive/Availability/Selection to meet your "Convenience" Standard? Computer Audio can, and should be made to produce a better Service in Audio Format Downloading BEFORE Selection is eliminated in all other Formats. I am certainly worth it- and I believe everyone else here is worth it too! No one should have to go without their Music, and there is something seriously wrong if any New Audio Format requires it by prematurely eliminating selection in the previous Audio Format. It sounds a little bit like extortion holding Music Archive as hostage, and thereby forcing everyone to accept the New seriously limited Selection of a New Audio Format as the only option left available on the Market. That is if you are really serious about "Soon All New Music will only be available as Music Downloads". If that is a joke I am not laughing!