Should I sell my accuphase for this schiit

Do you want to sell your P250 by chance 

You have to use the Sys to lower the gain of the Vidar to match the Aegir.
As the Vidar has 22 x gain and the Aegir is 12 x gain, so there is quite a need for the Sys to be on the Vidar to equalize the gains. Without the Sys your speakers will sound too lower/mid and bass heavy.

Cheers George

@georgehifi I tried the diagram with the sys and it does work 👍.  I will make comparisons in the coming days which is better  the diagram with or without the sys . Thanks 😊 again. 

There is no reason I can fathom why the Vidar did not work on the mid/bass with the Sys in this arrangement  https://ibb.co/SRj7hPT.

Something was not wired correctly, or the Sys is faulty.
(try again double checking all connections and put your Freya in solid state output mode) 

Cheers George 

@georgehifi  this is the diagram that works right now 

https://images.app.goo.gl/bFyNab5Qn9vyAkgD6

@delvalle23


Yes the bass could get "too" much if the Vidar has a touch more gain if your not using the Sys to gain match.

As for the Vidar not working when the Sys in in the mix wired up like this https://ibb.co/SRj7hPT , it could only be the wrong connection, not switched to the correct input, or the Schiit is faulty, I can’t see any other explanation for it not to work.

Can anyone one else here see a problem that I’m not seeing????

BTW the Vidar has 22 x gain and the Aegir is 12 x gain so there is quite a need for the Sys to be on the Vidar to equalize the gains.

Cheers George

@georgehifi  I am experimenting with horizontal bi amping per your suggestion using Vidar and Aegir . But if you remember you gave me a diagram that incorporated the Sys to specifically control the volume on the Vidar. I did try that diagram, however the Vidar in that diagram does not work at all. Only the Aegir. I did try a different diagram (without the sys) you also posted (I believe) and that one worked . The bass response increases. However, I feel that the bass can get boomy on SOME  tracks because the vidar and the Aegir are not level matched perfectly. I am wondering if the result will be a lot better if the SYS can work. Don’t get me wrong I am actually liking the result and the bass quantity improves quite a bit. 

The term bi-amping gets thrown around a lot these days - often without any understanding.

 This sounds more like I couldn’t be bothered.
Like I said an experienced tech would take about an hour to do it and the parts cost are a pair of speaker terminal, I’ve done quite a few in the passed, it’s easy even for someone with basic electronic skills.

And sorry to tell you but they do do it.

http://swbg1.tripod.com/IMG_1343.JPG

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/images/products/speakers/cmt340c/340SEC_lf_bk_hr.jpg

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/images/products/speakers/cmt340m/340se_lt_bk_hr.jpg

Cheers George

@b_limo @georgehifi  
here is my response from dave... the guy who built my speakers. 
Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the inquiry and I am happy to hear that you are enjoying the Sierra-2EX!

We do not offer a kit to convert a speaker into bi-wire/bi-amp ready. Doing so requires extensive modification to the crossover, as well as drilling and installing another set of binding posts into the cabinet. Also, using 2 different amplifiers for the same speaker is not recommended. If you were going to do this, it is important that the amplifiers used are 100% identical. The term bi-amping gets thrown around a lot these days - often without any understanding.

Hope this helps!

Good Sound To You!
ASCEND ACOUSTICS, INC.


David Fabrikant
www.ascendacoustics.com

@b_limo what do you mean? I’ve sent an email to the speaker designer at ascend asking about new crossovers and posts... no response yet. I get that george is great, but I’d still have to do surgery on my speakers to make his idea work. Schiit did say when you run an aegir in mono it’s not bridged.. it’s true monoblock. I think George has a neat idea but as far as the question of selling my accuphase I don’t think I should at this point. If anything I’ll wait to hear back from ascend about speaker surgery 

George is spot on.  I don’t know why people will ask questions, get a valid, well thought out response from someone more knowledgeable about the question they initially asked, and then disagree and try to school them.

@georgehifi Wow . Thanks so much for this diagram. You even included names of each component. Thanks so much.

Thanks, you may not even need the Sys if the gains of the Aegir and Vidar amps are the same. (unlikely if different manufacturers, but a possibility from the same Schiit) 
  
But if you do you and it's on the Vidar you can also vary the Sys to use it for "those odd recordings" that may need a bit more bass or a little less bass, or visa versa if it on the Aegir, a liitle more or less treble.
So it will almost be like having a control to vary the tonality of the sound if needed, with certain recordings

Cheers George

@georgehifi Wow . Thanks so much for this diagram. You even included names of each component. Thanks so much. 

delvalle23
I do have have the Vidar and the Aegir
I am interested in your suggestion on a horizontal bi amping VS mono block config.
How exactly do I insert a Schiit sys in the signal path or in that diagram. Thanks for your time. My preamp is a Freya Plus

Very easy and will sound a lot better, you put the Schiit Sys on the louder of the two then your Freya drives the other amp and the Sys. You adjust the Sys once only to get the gain the same on both amps. The the Freya is your master volume.

I’ve redone the horizontal diagram for you to include the Schiit Sys, Aegir and Vidar.
In this I’m "assuming" the Vidar has more gain than the Aegir hence it has the Sys on it’s input. ("could" be the Aegir has more gain then you’d put the Sys on it)
https://ibb.co/SRj7hPT

Get a pair of these for your Freya’s output https://www.audioquest.com/accessories/splitters-connectors-adaptors/adaptors/hard-rca-splitter-male-to-2-female  There are even cheaper ones on ebay.

And I would copy and store that diagram as I don’t think they last long as it’s a free service to host them.

Cheers George

@georgehifi I do have have the Vidar and the Aegir . I am interested in your suggestion on a horizontal bi amping VS mono block config. These two amps have different powers as you know yet the diagram you posted has only one preamp as the master volume. I read that this kind of bi amping works only if one amp of the two to be used has a volume control. How exactly do I insert a Schiit sys in the signal path or in that diagram. Thanks for your time. My preamp is a Freya Plus 

that does not mean that two bridged Aegirs won’t sound better than the op’s accuphase.

I never said they wouldn’t.
I said to the OP a stereo Aegir on the tweeters and a stereo Vidar on the bass with a $39 Sys will be the OP’s best option. And he can still use the trial period

Sierra’s are simply not bi-ampable

It's not hard, and would take about an hour and add value to the speakers as then they are bi-ampable or bi-wireable

@georgehifi I am unclear - have you actually listened to a bridged vs stereo aegir?? All I know is that you said that the detailed review i linked above might have pushed the stereo Aegir past it’s limit. While bridging may in theory have some negative aspects that does not mean that two bridged Aegirs won’t sound better than the op’s accuphase. Particularly based on *actual* reviews/tests we have seen so far.

As the op has mentioned a couple of times, the Sierra’s are simply not bi-ampable and dave@ascend is certainly not going to modify them to do so at any reasonable cost. I think it’s quite plausible that the op will really enjoy a pair of Aegir monoblocks.

I would be very interested in trying a pair myself ... but the Schiit return policy is actually crap compared to most other internet direct brands. Only 15 days + shipping both ways + restocking fee??? Compared to 30/60 days, free return shipping (even subs), and no restocking fees from other brands. So it would cost me $200 to try out a pair of Aegirs. I don’t get why people think Schiit has such as good trial/return policy. And warranties are not even transferrable.

I’m not sure that bridging the amp is a problem either.

It’s your money Andrew, Just Google the disadvantages of bridging/mono'ing stereo amps and spend time and look at many posts on it to get the right answer.
I didn’t need to because I bench tested it for myself and all the parameters I mentioned in my 2nd post take a hit for the worse save for the higher wattage.

Cheers George

forum corrects you with facts

Sorry but no one has correct anything, as they covered themselves by saying to you, "they still claim "bi-amping is best for "optimum sound quality".

Which itself tells you bi-amping two stereo amps  is better than mono'ing or bridging two stereo amps. Which all comes down to tested performance specs.

@cmc2234 I’m not sure that bridging the amp is a problem either.  

@georgehifi remember we covered that the Sierra2ex are not setup For bi-wire. I’m not sending them back and getting them to customize it. Maybe they would send me a new posts and crossover and I could pop it in. If I did that I would just keep the accuphase for the bass instead of buying a Vidar BUT... because the RAAL tweeters are the part of the speaker that needs the watts (I think I just made that up) I don’t think the aegir would work anyway. And plus.... putting in a passive switch and all that just seems like more schiit in the signal path. I mean in theory ok it works, but.....

OK George, you covered it.  Good enough, though you sound mad.  You mad about something?  

I'm sorry you don't like it when some upstart on the forum corrects you with facts concerning your misleading statements.  Try to put the pride in check George.

Warm regards

If the poster takes your advice, you should make him aware that there is no attenuation controls on either amplifier so, he will likely have a significant imbalance between lows and highs that will make his Schiit sound like s***.

You need to read a bit more carefully, before saying anything

" That will blow the old Accuphase away big time. (may need a $38 Shiit Sys passive on the louder of the two amps if they are not the same gain to equalize the gains) and then keep using your Freya as the main preamp and volume."   

I won't disparage Schiit gear as I own two pieces and couldn't be more pleased.  However, I was expecting somewhat of a retraction, being that I put up solid evidence that bridging isn't as bad as you claimed... at least with top quality gear.

Another factor here is If the poster takes your advice, you should make him aware that there is no attenuation controls on either amplifier so, he will likely have a significant imbalance between lows and highs that will make his Schiit sound like s***.

This by them says it all.
It shows an improvement in THD while in bridged mode, provided speaker ohm is not less than 4 ohm. However, they still claim "bi-amping is best for "optimum sound quality".

Better off with a 20w Class-A Aegir in stereo feeding both tweeters (that will stay Class-A much longer where it counts in the highs, than a mono one doing full range), and then a 100w Class-A/B Vidar feeding the bass.

Cheers George

Well, I'm not sure you looked at the specs... The distortion is clearly lower down to 4 ohms.  Can you explain that?

All you have to do is look at the impedance loading recommend after bridging compared to when in stereo and that will give you an idea all is not well when bridged. Everything takes a hit, except for 8ohm wattage output. 

Cheers George

@georgehifi I haven't done much digging to verify how significantly the quality degrades when bridging an amplifier.  Though I did recently look at the "Guaranteed" specs of the Accuphase A-65, for example, which is a super high quality amp with a massive power supply.  It shows an improvement in THD while in bridged mode, provided speaker ohm is not less than 4 ohm.  However, they still claim bi-amping is best for "optimum sound quality".

Stats below from  http://www.accuphase.com/cat/a-65_e.pdf

Total Harmonic Distortion Stereo operation (both channels driven) 0.07% with 2 ohm load 0.05% with 4 to 16 ohm load
Monophonic operation (bridged connection) 0.03%, with 4 to 16 ohm load

Can anyone explain the above stat and why it contradicts the claim that bridging has a  negative affect on distortion?

Regards  

The Schiit return policy is 15 days.

Eddie, use the 30 day return policy on that Schiit 

I have owned the Aegir for 2 months.  It will drive efficient speakers to high SPL.  The sound is very detailed and easy to listen to.  The price is awesome for this performance level.  There is another small manufacturer, Monarchy Audio, that I considered.  He/they have been in business for a long time and the reviews I saw were good.  25W all Class A with zero feedback.  The price point is below the Schiff($719).  He also sells monoblocks.  The small First Watt and Pass Labs stuff is also good but cost much more. I am interested in tubes as well but am not ready to start buying multiple pieces. Good used tube amps will cost more but I would like to hear the Dennis Had amps.   I have not seen very many bookshelf that are over 90 dB and the Aegir would not drive these to full bloom.  I guess it depends on how loud you want to listen to these.  I didn't look up your Accuphase but if it is small Class A and sounds good I would keep it.  Their stuff has always been highly regarded. 

@cakyol the amp was gone over and restored by Ft. Worth Audio in Fort worth Texas. These guys have something like 90 years experience between them. They’re highly regarded. 

Sell the Accuphase only if it sounds like Sch... oh never mind 😬

Regarding the comment "Well Schiit measures poorly," : 

I was pleasantly surprised by the Schiit Aegir's measured performance. It is a well-engineered amplifier at an affordable price.—John Atkinson

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/schiit-audio-aegir-power-amplifier-measurements#35s7RkZ5mdd12rU5...

How well was this restoration process ?

Normally, solid state devices and resistors (except constantly moving pots, like a volume control) do not "age" significantly over time, unless they have been stressed and exposed to voltages & currents very close to their limits and/or exposed to heat.

Having said that ALL electrolytic caps, especially manufactured long time ago, WILL fail and some pretty catastrophically.

If you are sure that the restoration was made by a very reliable establishment, AND that the amp was not previously abused (used at max levels of its capacity very often) then the old amp should be just as good.

My worry however with old amps is always whether any of the output bipolar (most old amps has bipolar output stages) devices may fail (for whatever reason, typically too much heat) and destroy your speakers if there is no  speaker protection circuit (or it does not function properly).

@georgehifi i learned something new today, thanks. 

@jcarcopo really? I thought accuphase was well respected quality gear ? I’m new to schiit, but everyone seem to think is great gear at reasonable price points 

Well Schitt measures poorly, but then Accuphase does too.  So it's down to which is cheaper for me. 

Should work great as long as the speaker are 8 ohm nominal and still fairly efficient.

Your answer is there, that it is taking a hit, and the proof for all the others would be comparing independent measurements of both mono and stereo. I bet it’s not the only parameter to take a hit.
Half the parameters that are affected that I mention above are encompassed, by saying "so log as the speaker is 8ohms"

Here’s a question you could ask Grover, would you be better to have an Aegir on the highs and a Vidar on the bass (gain equalized) , than to have 2 mono’ed Aegir’s

Cheers George

@georgehifi  so I wrote schiit about bridging the amp:

It was suggested to me that when any amp is bridged to go into mono it takes a hit as far as
“Distortion is higher
Output impedance is higher
Damping factor is worse
Not as stable into low impedance’s
If it was just stable into 4ohms it won’t be bridged
Current output is worse
And there are a few others I can’t think of at the moment.”
I’m considering a pair of AGier monoblocks. What you thought on bridging these amps

Here is the response;

Grover N (Schiit Audio) 

Dec 11, 01:03 PST 

Hi,

The amps aren't bridged when run in mono - they run a single side of the topology, thus avoiding a lot of problems typically associated with bridging. Should work great as long as the speaker are 8 ohm nominal and still fairly efficient.

Best, 
Grover

He’s response was “get the monoblocks, it’ll be no problem”

There it is, too hard for just one 20w stereo Aegir.
Don’t even bother with bridged mono, it’s a band-aid fix for more power.

But if you like it then just one Vidar should do nicely, and it wouldn’t surprise me if it was still better than the old Accuphase, you get to use it for 2 weeks and if by some chance it wasn’t you can send it back to Schiit.
https://www.schiit.com/products/vidar

And later on if you kept it maybe get the speakers bi-wired and get a "used Aegir" for that Class-A sound for the tweeter.

Cheers George

@213runnin @georgehifi  I asked the ascend acoustics designer about the efficiency. I told him I was considering using a pair of AGier monoblock and he had me send over the specs. He’s response was “get the monoblocks, it’ll be no problem”... I’m glad I have y’alls input. I’m thinking I’ll stick with my accuphase. 

I would suggest that the ascend acoustics sierra 2ex are on the inefficient side

Yes this is what I thought, especially with a ribbon tweeter, 20w amp is going to be working hard.
Why I said an Aegir on the highs and a Vidar on the mid/bass is going to be about as good as you can get.

Cheers George

I would suggest that the ascend acoustics sierra 2ex are on the inefficient side, so that may be a consideration. I found the Sierra 2 a little boring, I guess I prefer a little more personality in my speakers, Ascend usually voices their speakers boring ruler flat, but that may be your thing...

I had the exact same experience with the Sierra 2’s and RAAL towers. They measure extremely well and nothing was wrong but nothing stood out for 2 channel. Never excited me. Much like Benchmark, they seem to be designed/built to measurements to a fault. As such, I think the ribbon clarity and ruler flat neutrality of the Sierra lineup is great for AV/Home Theatre. I now use their wall-mountable Sierra Luna’s/Duo in my small 5.1 room - for that purpose they fit my requirements perfectly.

I would suggest that the ascend acoustics sierra 2ex are on the inefficient side, so that may be a consideration.  I found the Sierra 2 a little boring, I guess I prefer a little more personality in my speakers, Ascend usually voices their speakers boring ruler flat, but that may be your thing...

I'm wondering how much time the Aegir needs to break in.  I'm at 70 hours on the Freya + and it's changing my mind on Schiit Audio break in requirements.  YMMV.

According to the "audiofool"’s the Aegir does not seem to suffer much from bridging.

It is only 20w, "he talks about bass driving" and says "seem".
It was probably stressed in stereo mode and bridged just gave him more ooph!
There is no magic way of bridging an amp without the pitfalls.
Better comparison would have been on >100db speakers. then the stereo would surely have shone through.

Cheers George

@georgehifi According to the "audiofool"’s comprehensive comparison ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRK-8Z714BQ ... the Aegir does not seem to suffer much from bridging. In fact, power aside, a pair of Aegir mono blocks sounds better than a stereo Aegir. And he agrees with you that bridging *normally* has negative consequences. just sayin ...

that said

@wolf_garcia interesting to hear your comparison. I have been toying between a pair of monoblock Aegir’s and Freya + vs a Line Magnetic 805ia SET integrated amp (48 wpc) for my Spendor A7’s ... $2800 all in vs $4500 ... but I think I know what’s going to sound better. The LM seems to have amazing synergy with the Spendors/A7’s. Haven’t heard the Aegirs but did have a Vidar in house that was pretty good.

I recently spent several days "auditioning" a Schiit Aegir...it's a great sounding amp (I have very efficient speakers so one is enough), and although I had trouble with the first amp they sent me...it's "protection" kept shutting it off...the second amp works fine (great service at Schiit...they got the new one to me immediately). After a while I put the Aegir aside and my Dennis Had Inspire SE Firebottle HO (high output...supposedly 10 to 17 watts per channel depending on tubes) went back in the system. The Had amp sounds better in every way...the Aegir has a hard to describe "sheen" of Technology At Work or something that renders its sound seemingly artificial-ish...nice detail and tonally very nicely done...but the single ended Had tube amp just sounds better to my ears, which are the ones I use to listen to things. In any case, I still recommend the Aegir to the "efficient speaker" crowd although I'm shipping it back to Schiit. An interesting experiment but my brain must simply be accustomed to tubes and their inherent harmonic palette and musical rightness that clearly fits my tastes...oh well. Note they charge a re-stocking fee AND return shipping's on you...but to satisfy my curiosity it was worth it.

@georgehifi so if I use the schiit in mono, you say I’ll take a big hit. What does that mean?

If you bridge an amp for mono, yes you gain much more wattage, but all other measured parameters become worse (take a hit)

Distortion is higher
Output impedance is higher
Damping factor is worse
Not as stable into low impedance’s
If it was just stable into 4ohms it won’t be bridged
Current output is worse
And there are a few others I can’t think of at the moment.
I jokingly say when you bridge you turn what may have been a good amp into a P.A. amp

Also, I asked the speaker designer at ascend acoustics about bi-wire when I had them made, and he swore to me that it’s a scam (bi-wire), it has no benefits, and was just created as marketing. So I believed him and didn’t get that option.

He was full of it, not only can you bi-wire, but you can also bi-amp as in this case, how can that be a scam? If you had the option then take them back and get the bi-wire version if they have them as they would also be later models most likely. 

Cheers George

I think both will sound very good, just different flavors. You might want to keep both the Accuphase p-250 and the Schiit Aegir monoblocks.
:-)!