Seriously considering tube preamp…opinions?

I'm in a similar situation (looking for a tube pre / SS amp combo.) and I was wondering if there are tube pre's that are more suited to SS amp matching in terms of impedance matching.  Do I just go by the 1/10 rule (output impedance for the pre)?  This would narrow my search down considerably if I could find a tube pre that is SS amp friendly.  

@hilde45  The thing you have going for you with the Salk speakers is they have a moderate 8 ohm impedance with no nasty phase angles or dips. This makes the job of the amplifier easier. Jim is pretty conservative about his ratings- I suspect what passes for 83 dB or so for him is 86 or 87dB with some other brands- it depends where on the curve of the speaker you measure its sensitivity!

If I can make a suggestion: When working with **any** amplifier (tube, solid state, class D), its distortion will be lower if it is not asked to work hard! To this end, your amplifier investment dollar will be better served by a loudspeaker that is higher impedance (8 ohms as opposed to 4, and 16 as opposed to 8) because the amplifier will make less distortion. This is both easy to hear (as the distortion is higher ordered harmonics and addition IMD) and easy to see in the specs. When you can hear it and measure it, its real :)  In the case of tube amplifiers with output transformers, the higher impedance will allow the output transformer to operate more efficiently. When the OPT (OutPut Transformer) heats up, its converting amplifier power into heat :(  When driving lower impedances, not only does the OPT operate less efficiently, it can also lose bandwidth. On the bottom end this can be up to an octave of bandwidth loss between 4 ohms and 8!


On top of this loudspeaker efficiency is also important, particularly in the case of tubes, as tube amplifier power is more expensive (the industry went solid state not due to performance but cost reasons decades ago). This also helps the amp to make less distortion since it doesn't have to make as much power. A 3dB change in efficiency doesn't sound like much to the ear, but that is a difference of twice the power in the amp! So when you go from 83dB to 89dB, to make the same sound pressure the amp need only be 1/4 the power. The $$$$ implications should be obvious.


The less distortion, the more the presentation will sound like real music.


One other thing: lower efficiency loudspeakers are inherently less dynamic. This is due to heating of the voice coil- which in turn reduces its sensitivity. The more power you give it, the worse this becomes. There tends to be less thermal compression in higher efficiency loudspeakers.

@tvad 90db. Ok. (I guess 88db isn't better enough.)

Bookshelves: I began with bookshelves because I wanted new desktop monitors. Then, I opened up to the idea of a larger room/space. In the meantime I bought a sub. As I got deeper in, I realized that I really wanted a listening space. So, I guess bookshelves are a remnant of the earlier parameters — and I think they do offer flexibility for future placement. But if I was to be pushed, well, I guess I'm now at the point where I'd entertain floorstanders. Here come the Maggies! (Just kidding. I think.)

@tvad Thanks. I did consider that perhaps since my Salk order is standard veneer and not delivered yet, I might just change my order with Jim and go with a more sensitive speaker. Not sure if he’d allow that but IF the speaker I ordered was of higher quality and price, I’d still come out the same in overall costs and Jim would sell a more expensive product. (I don’t want to make assumptions about what he considers reasonable, so I’m ready to be rebuffed if he balks at such a proposal.)

The key issue is that the other models I might now consider that are more sensitive than the 84 db speakers I order are: 87db, 88db, or 90db. The 90db speakers are more than double the Wow1’s ($3800 vs. $1500). QUESTION: a jump of 3 or 4 db in sensitivity doesn't really buy me enough, does it? It should be 6db? 

@almarg Thanks for reminding me of the dynamic jumps. That’s key part of music realism in the genres I enjoy. Good to have 90db as a starting point. That may rule out some makes of speaker if I try to broaden out my amp choices. Daedalus is nice, perhaps a bit much for me right now. I’ll keep an eye open.

@mesch Part of it was increase, part was just thinking out the wider parameters. "I wandered into a bar, looking for love," kind of captures my state of mind at the start.
I will reconsider the speaker budget. Part of that might come from a higher sensitivity speaker choice. The output stage (tubes or not) is still open. I have heard both sides. But I also am aware that matching tubes/ss is a dangerous game, and I’m a bit shy on this front. That leads back either to integrated tube/ss, all tubes, or all ss.
I will check for used and visit dealers.
Thanks for posting and enjoy your family time!

At the beginning of your quest, based on 3 threads many here have contributed on, you have increase your system budget from $5-6K to $10-11K. The room size the system  will be placed in has increased from 150sq.ft. to 450sq. ft.  This is not an unusual outcome for someone entering this hobby, the extra funds and room size provide greater flexibility for, and enjoyment from the end result. Al the better for you.

I would reconsider the speaker budget to around $3000. This would allow for a stand mount speaker that could provide deeper bass response at greater sensitivity.

Your budget of $5-$6K for amplification opens up many possibilities. At that level the use of separates become more feasible. However I am not saying that the end result would be better over the right integrated. You started out your quest not sure you wanted to enter the 'tube' world to the extent of using tubes for the output stage. There are many who also think this way. I myself have saved that as the last consideration. There is no right or wrong between SS and tube based amplification.

This leaves you with $2K-$3K for source components. Since you already have a transport you would will be looking for a DAC. You also mentioned wanting a streamer.

I suggest you visit the several dealers in your area, be on the lookout for any used equipment that fits into your goal I have saved several dollars going this route.

I have my grand sons home with me (3-4 years) and they just got up. Have to sign off. Will get back

Take your time and enjoy your quest. 

Regarding the PrimaLuna EVO 400, I don’t know about that specific model but Stereophile’s measurements of several other PrimaLuna amps reveal them to have very high output impedances, even for tube amps. That stands a good chance of resulting in tonal imbalances when paired with many small two-way speakers. As well as with some larger speakers, depending on how their impedance varies as a function of frequency, and especially if the speaker was designed with the expectation that it would be driven with solid state amplification.

Regarding VTL, over the years a number of members have reported in threads here that they had customer service experiences with VTL that were, shall we say, less than ideal.

To add to Tvad’s comments about VAC amplifiers, with which as a former VAC owner I entirely agree, a nice thing about them is that they usually include a 2 ohm (or "1-2 ohm") output tap, in addition to the usual 4 and 8 ohm taps. The lower the impedance designation of a given output tap the lower the corresponding output impedance will be, and that additional tap adds significantly to the amp’s versatility with respect to speaker matching. The VAC models that were mentioned above include that third tap.

Regarding ...

At what *starting* level of db sensitivity does the choice of quality all-tube amplification open up? 88db? 92 db? more? (I suppose I’m not thinking of the tiny-watt tube systems, but things that are up to 35-40 wpc)

... Answers to that question will vary considerably among different listeners. And IMO a major reason for the variability is that it depends on the dynamic range of the kinds of recordings that are listened to (i.e., the **difference** in volume between the loudest notes and the softest notes). As I think I mentioned earlier in one of your threads there are some classical symphonic recordings in my collection that have been engineered with minimal or no dynamic compression which can reach brief dynamic peaks of 100 to 105 db at my 12 foot listening distance, while being listened to at average levels in the 70s, and with the softest notes being in the low 50s. And lest that amazing 50+ db dynamic range be questioned I’ll add that I have verified those dynamic ranges on a few such recordings by examining their waveforms on a computer, using a professional audio editing program.

Tvad’s suggestion of 90 db or more as the answer to your question is certainly reasonable. Beyond that the only things I can suggest are to try plugging various numbers into the SPL calculator I linked to earlier, and preferably to obtain an SPL meter which provides fast response time and "c-weighting." I use an older Radio Shack model 33-2055 digital SPL meter, which may be findable at eBay.

Finally, as a Daedalus owner I certainly agree with Tvad’s comments regarding them. However all of their models are floorstanding, and their prices may be discouraging. There is a used Daedalus Athena for sale here presently for $6K; with the possible exception of some particularly old models I doubt that other models are likely to appear for sale for much less than that.

Best regards,
-- Al

@tvad , all: I went back and read the last few pages of this long thread and really appreciate all the advice. I do regret that in some ways, my posts occasionally ran people in circles — reiterating good advice to me that had already been given, with sufficient clarity! My apologies.

* I now have a very, very short list of tube amps to drive inefficient speakers.
* I now have a very, very short list of solid state amps to drive inefficient speakers.
* I have some very powerful advice to reconsider buying inefficient speakers.

Since I am not fiscally committed yet, I can keep this in mind as I audition the Salks vs. Dynaudios.

Given the above lesson that "tube speakers love efficient speakers," the only question I'm left with as I keep the inquiry into more efficient speakers is a simple question:

At what *starting* level of db sensitivity does the choice of quality all-tube amplification open up? 88db? 92 db? more? (I suppose I'm not thinking of the tiny-watt tube systems, but things that are up to 35-40 wpc)
[Context for the question are the earlier parameters: listening at modest volume (85db), room (450sq ft), genres (classical/jazz/rock), digital sources, comfortable headroom]

Aha. Will look. One more: VTL IT-85 Integrated Amplifier 60wpc New $5250.00

Hilde45,
the VAC 100/100 tvad is referring to is on Agon now. Combo ad of preamp and amp together. 11 hours left on ad.

tvad,
I noticed your prior VAC PHI 200 recommendation above (quad of 6SN7) input/drivers and VAC 100/100 with 12AU7s input/driver tubes. Nice gear, I like VAC too, yet never looked under the hood and cannot find photos. Somehow the VAC engineers have been able to make a $45,000 VAC statement sound good with re-issue TungSol 6SN7s, amazing, they sound rounded off and less musical in my Cary preamp. Boutique and vintage NOS sound way better, big$, had to hoard away four quads of vintage 6SN7s, argh. Hats off to VAC designers if they can make re-issue tubes sound good.  i.e. now we see amps going to 12AU7s too..

By chance do you know, Is it all 100% point-to-point wiring or any circuit boards under the cover of the VAC amps?

Thanks
Van alstine not high, eh?

@tvad Why not van alstine? Pathos is too boutique-y, right?
Also, where does one get VAC? I am having trouble locating it.

@tvad Yes, I think you’re right. That helps limit things a lot. Where does one get VAC? I am having trouble locating it.

I found a couple others to add to the list. Any thoughts?

• Van Alstine Fet Valve CF RB $1,599.00 + Fet Valve 400R (200 watts) $2899 = $4498
• PATHOS LOGOS MKII TUBE HYBRID INTEGRATED AMPLIFIER 100w $4995
• PATHOS LOGOS MKIII TUBE HYBRID INTEGRATED AMPLIFIER 70w $2995
• MANLEY STINGRAY II 32wpc $5900 (not enough watts with this extra criterion)

@almarg Thank you for taking a closer look at the specs. I've saved that information for down the road!
@jackd thanks for the Rogue tip.
@Tvad, I was thinking about what you said — the list available with the criteria I listed (well-known, easy to re-sell, under $6k, mates well with the 84db speakers to good listening levels, new, and not from boutique).

So, what can I compile from my notes?

IF I accept the minimum watts for driving the 84 db speaker to what Jim Salk indicated (at least 30 wpc for tube), I get the following list:

Black Ice F360 Hybrid tube preamplifier $1995.00 + Fusion F35 Tube Integrated Amplifier (60wpc) $1,999 = $3994
Cary SLI-80HS integrated amplifier 40 wpc $4495
Erhard-Audio Power Amps "Basie" 38wpc $1850
McIntosh MA252 hybrid $3500 100 wpc
Prima Luna EVO 400 tube Integrated amp 38 or 70 wpc $4999
Quicksilver $1295 QS Line stage preamp + $2995 60 QS Watt Mono (60 watts) = $4290
Quicksilver pre and Mono 120 Amplifier (120 watts), $3995 + $1295 = $5290
Rogue Audio Sphinx v3 tube Integrated Amplifier 100 wpc $1,595.00
Rogue Cronus Magnum tube integrated 100 wpc $3000
Schiit Freya+ and Vidar $1498 ($899 + $699)

I left off deHavilland Ultraverve because I don't know what it would pair with. But it might get together w/ something good for less than $6k

So, that's the list I came up with. I suspect that a couple of these might get eliminated by some additional scrutiny (e.g. you might think they're not quite at the quality level or easy to sell, etc.).

Anyway, I'm just trying to collect my thoughts and would be interested in what you, others, folks would add or subtract.

From a specification standpoint I don’t see any issues pairing the Quicksilver Line Stage and 60 watt mono amps with low efficiency speakers such as the Salk WOW1, provided that peak SPLs in the mid to upper 90s at the listening position are sufficient for your purposes.

The high damping factor (20) of the amp, which corresponds to a very low output impedance for a tube amp, seems fine for use with such speakers with respect to the tonal effects I referred to earlier that can result from amp/speaker impedance interactions.

If the speakers were much more efficient (e.g. in the mid to upper 90s) I would be a bit concerned that the high gain of the preamp (18 db) might limit the useful range of the volume control to very low settings. But that seems very unlikely with 84 db speakers.

I have no experience with Quicksilver products, so I can’t comment on their sonics. But the impression I’ve gained from comments by others that I’ve seen here and elsewhere over the years has been very favorable.

As Tvad said, "go for it!"

Best regards,
-- Al

@hilde45 

Have you looked into the Rogue gear?  The ST-100 and one of their preamps would work well with your gear and you should be able to strike a deal somewhere plus the re-sale is good. 

Ok, Tvad. I'll think about those!
At the moment, I thought I might be able to do (at the least) something from Quicksilver, e.g. $1295 QS Line stage preamp + $2995 60 QS Watt Mono (60 watts) = $4290
and I thought there were others in my notes which could get in under $6k, but I have to go dig them out.

@tvad  Wow! I cannot do an all tubes amplification combo for a 84db bookshelf for 5-6k? That's not total system cost, just amplification. Hmmm. 

Thanks! I am not sure. I'll correspond with you off this thread.

but I'm completely in the dark about what your stuff costs.

We make a 6SN7-based preamp that as a line stage is $1900.00.

@hilde45

The line stage of my prior comment above is the UV-1.  Were you planning to run a balanced preamp or single-ended (the UV-1 is single-ended).

Short answer:
Total system = $11-12k max.
Amplification = $5-6k max

Longer answer: I agree that I'm indicating ambivalence. Here's where I am, budget wise — I have shifted above my initial budget above $3k because of:

(a) desire for tubes, possibly all the way
(b) desire not to be buying again in 5 years
(c) desire for headroom
(d) desire for quality

This dialogue and other research has helped me establish these criteria as necessary and has indicated that the picking might be slim in the sub-$3k region. Maybe not, but I'm sensing that.

My ambivalence stems from concerns about overkill. I have gotten more comfortable with $5k on amplification if no overkill. I'd love to meet the above criteria for less -- but again, no overkill.

What is overkill, you ask? I'd say that until I find myself deep in this hobby 5 years from now, I will not be spending more than $11-12k total on this system. I don't want to get into a long discussion about proportions of spending (I'm reading the Harley book, I've seen lots of pissing matches on this topic); I'm grounded in the fact that I have heard speakers and a sub I like that will run to about $3500-$4000.

That said, I won't spend more than $6k. I cannot believe that given where I am with this hobby, that'd be necessary or something that would sit right with me. And as you can see, going so quickly to nearly double my upper limit of $3k has made me nervous. But I can get there w/ the right criteria and deal.

to: @hilde45  

One last recommendation.  Set your budget limit -or- this will be a long roller coaster ride for you and others making recommendations for you.  

My system is likely to remain stable up to the point of the speaker binding posts for several years. Over the next couple years I will be looking into other speakers. Any consideration for a amplifier change would occur thereafter.  

@mesch 1,990 posts

02-24-2020 7:38am@decooney Yes, I love my Audio Mirror Tubadour DAC. Getting the Aric Pre today, on the Fedex truck heading this way. Likely one day will have to replace the BEL. Getting a replacement that provides what it does will be tough. Currently looking into the Pass XA25.Also Reno HiFi. No hurry yet. Have always considered the BEL to be the strongest link in my system. The Tubadour DAC provides appreciation for the source. Soundstage and bloom. On a stricter budget i would consider one of the MDHT DACs.

It was my decision to go digital that drove me towards tubes for source and pre.

If you like the sound of the BEL (many do, nice), and it works well with your Aric Pre and the non-oversampling Tubadour DAC, can't help but think you have a nice combo there. You could replace the main caps in your amp (if/when needed) go through it, try some nice vintage tubes in the DAC, ya never know might be well set for a while! There are a few amps I wish I had kept, yet trying something else is fun too :)

Thanks, @atmasphere . I went to your website and took a look. Difficulty was that of the 9 dealers you list, none list prices for almost anything. (I think I found 1 dealer listing 1 price.) This makes it very hard to know what's in the realm of possibility for me. I realize that dealers want to keep things on the down low to work deals with customers, etc., but I'm completely in the dark about what your stuff costs.

One parameter is budget. Is this Atma or Ear in the neighborhood of $3k?

@hilde45  We make a 6SN7-based preamp that as a line stage is $1900.00. It is single-ended. We also make balanced preamps (and were the first to do so) but they retail for more than you budget. But we've been making them a long time so you might be able to find one used within your budget. We can refurbish and re-warrant any of our older products.

Almarg, thanks for the post. Informative as always. Matching tips are so appreciated.

It also reminds me of why I posted (in another thread) asking about the value of the crossover control on the Parasound — the ability to delimit the frequencies assigned to the speakers (and assigned to the sub, instead) was something Salk himself thought could work well with his little 84 db speakers. He didn't say it was necessary, but he accepted it as a way of doing things.

It may well be I wind up doing some speaker shootouts which result in a higher efficiency speaker. For now, I clicked with the Dyns and I expect to give the Salks a real chance. Everything I read about them was phenomenal. But there are other fish in the ocean. A higher efficiency speaker would really open things up, but for the moment, I cannot accept that as a directive given that there’s good evidence on the side of the speakers on my shortlist.

Caution: This is a long post :)

Here are some comments concerning amplification that I would add to this excellent discussion, which also have potential implications regarding speaker selection:

First, small box-type two-way speakers (such as those the OP is particularly interested in) are very often designed such that their impedance in the bass and mid-bass regions is significantly lower than their impedance at higher frequencies. The intent being that when such a speaker is driven with a solid state amp the near zero output impedance of nearly all solid state amps will result in greater amounts of power being delivered at low frequencies than at high frequencies (for a given input voltage to the amp), thereby augmenting what would otherwise be a relatively weak response at low frequencies.

Since the output impedances of tube amps vary widely, what that means is that if a tube amp is to be selected for use with such a speaker it should have relatively low output impedance (for a tube amp). And since amplifier output impedance is inversely proportional to damping factor, damping factor should be relatively high (for a tube amp). Otherwise weak bass and over-emphasis of higher frequencies would be the likely result with many and perhaps most such speakers.

If a tube amp is chosen for use with such a speaker I would suggest a damping factor of at least 8, and preferably more. Most or all of the Quicksilver amps that have been discussed meet that criterion. Other tube amps having relatively low output impedances/high damping factors include those made by Audio Research, Music Reference, and McIntosh.

Second, I’ll mention that a bit more than a year ago I purchased a Pass XA25 from Mark at Reno HiFi, and I could not be more delighted with the amp as well as with the purchase experience. It replaced a somewhat older but very highly regarded tube amp, a VAC Renaissance 70/70 MkIII, which I had used for the previous seven years. (That amp cost more than $14K when it was new, ca. 2000). With my particular speakers (Daedalus Ulysses), at least, it comes remarkably close to the VAC with respect to dimensionality, imaging, liquidity, and other traditional fortes of high quality tube amps. It’s a bit less rich sounding than the VAC, but I interpret that as an increase in accuracy, which is fine as far as I am concerned. A caveat, however, is that my speakers are rated at 97.5 db and have an extremely flat and benign impedance curve.

The INT-25 integrated amp of course combines a very similar power amp with a line-stage preamp.

Also, per Stereophile’s measurements the maximum power capabilities of the XA25, the INT-25, and the INT-60 are all within about 1.2 db of each other, into both 4 and 8 ohms. I suspect Mark at Reno will tell you that the XA25 and INT-25 sound better when operating within their “class A envelope” than when asked to provide an amount of power which causes them to transition to AB. The class A envelope for those amps is spec’d as 50 watts peak into 2, 4, or 8 ohms. (That number would be significantly less on the more usual rms basis). However the INT-60 is described as being primarily a class AB amplifier anyway, which leaves class A at 30 watts. (It isn’t clear if that is peak or rms). So all three amps seem roughly comparable in those respects.

Finally, per the following calculator which I referenced in one of your other threads …

https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

… Two speakers having 85 db/1 watt/1 meter efficiency, if driven with 25 watts and with a bit of “room gain” factored in, can produce an SPL of 95.3 db at a 10 foot listening distance. 130 watts (Stereophile’s measurement of the XA25’s capability into 4 ohms, which is a bit higher than that of the INT-25 and INT-60) would produce 102.5 db. Both those numbers are probably sufficient for most users on most or all of their recordings, but will be marginal **at best** for some listeners on some of their recordings, particularly those having very wide dynamic range (such as some classical symphonic recordings which have been engineered with minimal or no dynamic compression).

All of which, IMO, reinforces the notion of considering higher efficiency speakers. Especially given that the OP already has a sub, which would help to compensate for the tradeoff that often exists between the efficiency and the deep bass extension of a speaker, for speakers that are of similar physical size.

Best regards,
--Al

@mesch Interested in the Aric. I had a nice email exchange with him. Curious how things shake out for  you.

@decooney Yes, I love my Audio Mirror Tubadour DAC. Getting the Aric Pre today, on the Fedex truck heading this way.  Likely one day will have to replace the BEL. Getting a replacement that provides what it does will be tough. Currently looking into the Pass XA25.Also Reno HiFi.  No hurry yet. Have always considered the BEL to be the strongest link in my system. The Tubadour DAC provides appreciation for the source. Soundstage and bloom. On a stricter budget i would consider one of the MDHT DACs.

It was my decision to go digital that drove me towards tubes for source and pre. 

@tvad I understand about Reno and I do *hear* you on that, and on First Watt and home additions; I’m trying to tease out what folks think are in at least a neighboring zone, quality wise.

@mesch Thanks for the great summation. I think I’m going to print that out and post it. Seriously. Cogent and instructive. I think I have done 1-4, though I have not done "treatments." I’m working on 5 in a "pre-thinking" way because choice of speakers (3) is still TBD. I am considering digital sources only.

@decooney You’ve got the path right about how we got here. I’m still leaning very much toward tubes, but the discussion of solid state lead to comments about how *good* solid state can sound and how well they can produce a musical result with low-sensitivity speakers. So, I’m working on 1 and 2; that’s why budget (3) is getting shoved around a bit — largely via comments about what it takes for really good solid state. I was pretty dogmatic (in earlier replies) to folks suggesting things way above my $3k pricepoint. But then folks (like you) weighed in about solid state, Pass Labs, etc. and it was clear that if I didn't budge my budget upwards, even used would be well beyond me. The Reno site has nothing at the 3k price point, even used, in power.

Thanks for your comments. Back to speakers.

@mesch 1,987 posts

02-24-2020 6:45am@decooney I have the Jolida Fusion preamp and have looked up, and followed up with a talk with Mike Allen of Jolida about the possible upgrades. I decided that for the cost, and my desire to go a more simpler, point to point 6sn7 design, looking for that type pre and selling my Jolida was the best approach.

On another note, I once had a Audible Allusions 3B preamp. However after deciding a) I wasn’t going toward using vinyl as a primary source and I could get by on a lessor phonostage, and b) It had 4 tubes with 2 dedicated to the phonostage I wasn’t using, I sold it.

-------------------

I believe Hide45 is considering digital sources only.

Ah, yes, the allure of a 6SN7 based preamp. I sure like mine. :)  But, good 6SN7s are not cheap, as you know.

re: Hilde45 ("digital sources"), really good to know.
>>THIS<< reason alone is what drove me away from Solid State again back to an all tube based system again:
1) Ladder Tube DAC,
2) Tube Preamp,
3) Tube Amplification, +
4) Good 1960s vintage input/driver tubes
5) Great OCC copper interconnects (not silver)

All really helped my system, ridding of all digital grain, no more edge, nice and smooth and lush with absolutely no fatigue. Easy listening to lossless content, back to real music again :)

@hilde45,
A few reasons some of us were noting the Pass INT-60, is you were:
-suggesting less efficient (84db) speakers, a bit more required to drive them.
-you seemed to be leaning back to solid state vs. tube amplification.
-uncertain about matching preamps (where this started); complexity.
-your suggestion of posible upgrade to larger Dyn speakers, later on.
-possibly wanting to future-proof your system, avoiding upgrades later.
-us knowing there are used 2nd hand INT-60s out there for decent deals.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Decide:
#1, Speakers: what speakers you’ll be using next 5 yrs, try to pin it down (changes a lot).
#2, Amps: decide if you like softer tube or SS sound (they are different).
#3, Budget: confirm if your original $3k limit is still a real goal or not (it matters, a lot). 

Sources:
Since you have not committed yet to working with any particular dealer, your options are wide open right now new or used. There are many good dealers who offer new/used. Yes, I agree with tvad, RenoHiFi is one source.

Fyi, you can achieve great sound close to your original $3k goal with (some new or 2nd hand) tube separates and integrateds out there. Several options exist. QS is a no brainer, super value, real tube sound (in your budget range). Now with SS, to achieve real "tube like sound", options are more limited and price goes up again, 2x of your $ goal. AND if you want something new, closer to new, with warranty. Few offer SS that sound closer to tube, already discussed. Pass is a no brainer. Firstwatt, offers less power - speaker matching is key there, as tvad said.

Agree, back to square one - figure out your speakers first, go from there.

@decooney  I have the Jolida Fusion preamp and have looked up, and followed up with a talk with Mike Allen of Jolida about the possible upgrades. I decided that for the cost, and my desire to go a more simpler, point to point 6sn7 design, looking  for that type pre and selling my Jolida was the best approach. 

On another note, I once had a Audible Allusions 3B preamp. However after deciding a) I wasn't going toward using vinyl as a primary source and I could get by on a lessor phonostage, and b) It had 4 tubes with 2 dedicated to the phonostage I wasn't using, I sold it.

I believe Hide45 is considering digital sources only.

Hide45,  As a way to recap on all the great advise provided across your 3 threads, I propose that, regardless of budget, a sound (pun intended) approach would be:

1) Understand the desired sonic outcome. Experience needed here.

2) Understand the room and have some idea of how system is to be placed within. Part of this is consideration for room treatment. Room is part of the system.

3) Choose speakers that fit the room and desired sonic outcome.

4) Consider the sources to be used in the now, and possibly to be used in the future.

5) Choose amplifier to compliment the room speakers toward the  sonic outcome.

6) If not an integrated amplifier, choose a preamp that compliments the amplifier towards the sonic outcome and supplies the needed inputs/outputs.

7) Choose the source components.

All aspects, 1-6, and budget, should be thought through carefully,   prior to the 1st purchase.  Much of the desired outcome is dependent on 7.  

I understand that this approach is very idealistic, that most of us have constraints that must be complimented in the process, thus rearranging the hierarchy, and often increasing budget.

I advise avoiding the consideration of doubling budget to accommodate speakers without consideration of the system as a whole.

@tvad @decooney and all,
It's likely this thread is almost exhausted.
I'll just pose one final additional question.
* Assume, for the sake of argument, that you've convinced me to consider high quality solid state as an alternative to tubes. (This is a thought experiment.)
* Assume, also, that you've made me very curious about the Pass Labs INT-60 amp.
* Assume that I've looked into them and find $9000 too much for me, but that you've nudged me up to $6500, tops, for amplification.

QUESTION: Who do you think would be nearly competing, in solid state, with Pass Labs with this maximum price point (for new)?

I'm looking for a short list of makers you consider to be "nearly Pass labs" topping out around $6500, new.

When I look, I see things such as:

First Watt
Bryston
Hegel
Sugden
and many others.

So, in the upper tier, nearly in the same breath as Pass Labs but at a max $6.5k pricepoint, who makes your super short list?

That’s a lot of money for an illusion. Just joking! ;-)

@tvad Sounds like a amp worth selling a kidney for. Then again...Reno Hifi, right?

http://www.audibleillusions.com/pricing/