@geoff -
Actually, I did not intend to defend Aczel's position, as I have never personally tested it using cables with the exact same LRC characteristics. I was merely repeating it, but I do agree it came off somewhat as a defense.
As an aside, I recall the Naim hiline interconnect making a system-transforming difference (for the better) over the Naim standard IC and Naim attributed it primarily to the vibration-resistant connectors they used. So there are other considerations. Then again, the two ICs may have had very different LCRs, so there's always that. |
ieales
Can you give an example of two cable assemblies with the same measured LCR numbers and vastly different sound?
>>>>>>>I was commenting on stringreen’s post which was,
”I originally thought that a short length of speaker (2 1/2 meter) cable didn’t mean that much difference....especially two same lengths of very similar construction. I substituted one kind - thin minimally jacketed silver - with another thin minimally jacketed silver... both were a bi-wired set. The difference was night and day. I don’t know why, but that is the truth.”
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I’m willing to conduct a double blind test if any cable manufactures want to participate. I have a a set of Infinity RS1s and an Aragon 4004 Mk II. |
To expand on the question? Has there ever been measurable speaker differences with different cables? ETC? Frequency response? Impedance? Has an amplifier ever displayed a different level of distortion using exotic power cables? As in does an amp begin 1% distortion at 100 watts with a stock power cable but managed 105 watts with an upgraded one? |
Such a test would need to be performed in an ordinary room with speakers placed in less than ideal positions as the average listener would have things. Testing high-grade cables and low-grade cables of equal electrical properties, Like 2 coathanger’s stretched out compared with whatever high-end cable Of the same conductance. |
@geoffkait In other words how do you explain cables that measure the exact same L, R, C sound different all things being equal? Can you give an example of two cable assemblies with the same measured LCR numbers and vastly different sound? nugat: I ran such a test at AES. For valid results, all participants must have demonstrated the ability to discern subtle variances reliably, or the results will devolve to 50/50, as it did at AES. It is very difficult to control all the variables. Electronics and speakers vary as they warm up, getting people in the sweet spot, distractions, etc. Even if everyone agreed that the two differ, it would be difficult to get a consensus of better. IMO, the best test is in a system well known to the tester. Regardless of the DUT, the whole system should be re-plugged to establish a baseline and re-verified with well known source material. Only then introduce the new component. If there is a difference, it will readily be apparent. It's tougher with power amps to provide them with the same work so they are at the same thermal point. Only then should the tester say "BananaRama is really good in my system. Check it out and see what it's like in yours." |
There are s lot of factors, and I have done Test a with 5-6 in the room and with
My high quality preamp, amp digital and seperste power dupply and goid power
Conditioner. Never mind $10.
Try a $200 interconnect , speaker cable , snd power cords vs a $1,000
Any credible cable will be easy . K tried blue jeans monster even lower model of same brand, where I had No idea when switch box was used ,custom built
All connectors and internal connections the same, plus I owned a store and had many cables to compare to once runin. Soundstage is bigger deeper imahubg is much more real as well as image focus and Bass. If you can tell then dome thing
Is very wrong in your system or you have problems with your ears. |
It can’t be that difficult. Pharmaceuticals are tested that way. Either something works comparing to placebo or not. And the variables are really complicated there. We bring people to the same room with the same high quality sound system, set of recordings and procedures agreed by a venerable audio society. We have our control cable, placebo, something off the shelf. We compare to it other cables with the same L, R, C. We ask testers to judge the sound reproduction accordingly. Neither experimenters nor testers know whether tested cables or control are used. If the results are near 50/50 then we know that if L, R, C are the same, no other variables matter. Pure physics. Bob Carver did it with amps, surely somebody must have checked it with cables?
Then of course another study could be done how cable L, R, C influence people’s judgements. And how expensive, or not, is tuning those three parameters.
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It can’t be that difficult. Pharmaceuticals are tested that way. Either something works comparing to placebo or not. And the variables are really complicated there. We bring people to the same room with the same high quality sound system, set of recordings and procedures agreed by a venerable audio society. We have our control cable, placebo, something off the shelf. We compare to it other cables with the same L, R, C. We ask testers to judge the sound reproduction accordingly. Neither experimenters nor testers know whether tested cables or control are used. If the results are near 50/50 then we know that if L, R, C are the same, no other variables matter. Pure physics. Bob Carver did it with amps, surely somebody must have checked it with cables?
Then of course another study could be done how cable L, R, C influence people’s judgements. And how expensive, or not, is tuning those three parameters.
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geoffkait:
I've always been curious about wire directionality. What causes a cable or interconnect to work better in one direction than the other?
All: Please feel free to chime in. Is there any scientific basis for this?
G |
stringreen
I originally thought that a short length of speaker (2 1/2 meter) cable didn't mean that much difference....especially two same lengths of very similar construction. I substituted one kind - thin minimally jacketed silver - with another thin minimally jacketed silver... both were a bi-wired set. The difference was night and day. I don't know why, but that is the truth.
>>>>>The most likely reason is wire directionality. One cable was connected in the right direction, the other in the wrong direction. Case solved.
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I originally thought that a short length of speaker (2 1/2 meter) cable didn't mean that much difference....especially two same lengths of very similar construction. I substituted one kind - thin minimally jacketed silver - with another thin minimally jacketed silver... both were a bi-wired set. The difference was night and day. I don't know why, but that is the truth.
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best antidote to what might be an annoying repetitive type post
is to ignore it.Once you jump in you're part of "the problem".
I'm in favor of minimal policing. It seems like members do a
good job of showing annoyers and trolls the door.
And some of us to find an entertainment value in the fights.
Depends what mood you're in. |
chayro
For the millionth time, why does everybody ignore the fact that the Aczel crowd never maintained that all cables sound the same. Their theory was that all differences between cables are due solely to inductance, resistance and capacitance values, which are easily measured and can drastically change the frequency response of a speaker. So, yes - cables with the same LCR values will sound the same. So they maintain. Whether it’s true or not is another story.
An excellent example of a wishy washy defense of Aczel. Not that I blame you very much. As my old boss at NASA used to say, never get behind anyone 100%. 😬
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LOL. Geoff is right - you absolutely have to SEE a cable in order to BELIEVE what you hear.
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+1, @mitch2.
That’s exactly my approach been on what stays in my system.
I have to say that it’s been a absolute joy to read the raving rants of cable naysayers 😆
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@mitch2
You are right , but where would the fun be in that for all of the cable trolls here on Audiogon? |
If the goal is to reliably and consistently choose what sounds best, why would you use anything but your ears? |
Not wishing to appear too pedantic here but technically the whole thing is a lot more like the Hidden Variables theory than the Heisenburg Uncertainty principle, the latter having to do with the inability to measure velocity and location of an atomic particle simultaneously. In other words how do you explain cables that measure the exact same L, R, C sound different all things being equal? |
Can somebody point to a scientific double blinded cable test?
There's one over there > |
These are like "which oil?" threads on any given car enthusiast forum. They continually appear.
There is a good case for locking such threads as soon as they emerge. They cause a lot of emotions to flow and most of it is damaging to the membership, no matter what position one may have on the subject.
The op is shown a link to where to look to get their satisfaction in the question or at least what satisfaction can be found, and the thread gets locked. Ie, the question is asked so often that a set answer is put in place, the op is directed to it --thread locked. Like real forums do, in order to keep the peace and keep the membership.
Some forums are now going to the level of not allowing debate about cables making a difference or not, or double blind tests demanded, etc. That the cable forum area on those forums...is for people who believe that cables make a difference. Any other posting is stopped immediately and people are given various warning and suspensions for intruding in the cable qualities discussion area.
Makes perfect sense. People can get on with their lives without being attacked.
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Gordon Ramsey conducts a really interesting blind test with food that I've seen him do on some of his shows. He'll blindfold chefs, then put various foods in their mouths and have them try to guess what it is. People are wrong more than they are right. They miss things like Watermelon, Chicken, Green Beans etc. It's amazing. Based on this, is it safe to assume that foods don't have a discernible unique taste? |
Heisingberg's Uncertainty Principle at work here on the Macro level! |
Too many variables: source - preamp - amp - speakers! Even in the simplest setup, say, Oppo - Quad amp - Quad ESL's the need for an IC introduces a variable (of unknown quality) before the speaker cable testing can begin! We need to know what effect the IC (variable A) has before we can test the speaker cable (variable B). |
For the millionth time, why does everybody ignore the fact that the Aczel crowd never maintained that all cables sound the same. Their theory was that all differences between cables are due solely to inductance, resistance and capacitance values, which are easily measured and can drastically change the frequency response of a speaker. So, yes - cables with the same LCR values will sound the same. So they maintain. Whether it’s true or not is another story. |
Sorry to disabuse anyone of the belief that blind tests mean anything. Especially if the results are negative. Would anyone expect anything of value to materialize when a bunch of giggling skeptics get together for a blind test? 🤡 Furthermore it’s highly unlikely that in ideal situations, you know, good ears and good equipment, that no differences would be observed as there is almost always some audible difference in the sound.
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Gee, this is a real head-scratcher! I too am curious about this! Anybody from the Boston Audio Society know about such a test? The only test I can remember was the one done by Peter Aczel in 1978 comparing Levinson Silver cable against zip cord. No difference found! Yet there is sure a lot of anecdotal reports from the "golden ear" crowd! These certainly cannot qualify as methodical and unbiased! |
