a couple things......from 1793 to 1837 a cent was pure copper from 1837 to 1857 a cent was made of bronze (95% copper and 5 % tin and zinc) from 1857 to 1864 a cent was made of 88% copper and 12 % nickel from 1864 to 1962 a cent was once again made from bronze ( 95% copper and 5% tin and zinc ) ,*with the exception of 1943 when,due to WWII, a cent was zinc coated steel* from 1962 to 1982 a cent was made from 95% copper and 5% zinc (no tin ) from 1982 to present a cent is made from 97.5 zinc and 2.5 % copper .........
as far as directionality....the faces on all coins face left except for**** ( drumroll ) Abraham Lincoln a copper coincidence?
This is really going too far. It's like when Romney held out his hand and said "I'll betcha $10K" on whatever it was he was upset about with Rick Perry (take your pick). It's like splashing the pot in poker. This will not end well and won't prove a thing. Stroke one's ego maybe, but beyond that.......
gdhal this discussion regarding your $25,000 offer is to be conducted here under the protective umbrella of the forums participants and moderators...
clearthink, I thought we already discussed the matter and were to proceed to the next step. My attorney will create the necessary protective umbrella for me, and presumably your attorney will create a protective umbrella for you.
As of 11PM EST, my skype phone hasn't rang, nor have I received a PM. I'm shutting skype down for now.
gdhal this discussion regarding your $25,000 offer is to be conducted here under the protective umbrella of the forums participants and moderators when we progress to a set of mutually agreed upon terms actual specific naturally private details will be exchanged privately but within the Audiogon private message system for everyone's protection. We can settle these absurd snakeoil everything sounds the same claims for once and for all but this will be a public process including the actual test itself for the benefit of the audiophile community.
To further show my good faith, I’ll spare you the PM back-and-forth.
My skype account is "gratefulhal", no quotes. *Please call this evening*.
Note I do not leave skype on 24/7 or every day for that matter.
Therefore, alternatively and as I asked previously, you should PM me anyway so we can exchange email address, etc. and arrange a time if we can skype, should we be unable to this evening.
Signing off Agon for now, only because I’m getting ready to sit down and - you guessed it - listen to some music!
The post I made earlier today to clearthink, which was a copy of the post I made earlier in the thread, and copied only because he couldn't find the original, has been removed by the forum moderator. I'm not sure why, but I will not dispute it.
I was privy to the inner workings of The Amazing Randi’s 1M Dollar Challege for The Intelligent Chip, to see if a customer of mine could identify the treated CD in blind tests ten out of ten times. This is just like it! Amazing! Who’s gonna blink first? 😉
$25K USD is fine however you have issued a public challenge so all negotiations must be in public so that we can settle this matter for once and for all!
@clearthink
If you read and understood my post, the "proposition" aspect was/is public. I went on to write "If interested, and if the amount is worthwhile we can have our attorney's draw up the contracts, establish an escrow account and so on". I don't think it's a stretch or unreasonable that you and I take this offline and discuss our agreement in further detail.
I have examined some of your prior posts throughout the forum. You question everybody and treat all others as though they're wrong. Your mannerism is such that you clearly have an ax to grind. Frankly, I don't really care. Be couth. I don't appreciate your aggressive tone. If you would like to do business, the first step in that process is to speak with one another. I'm glad to do this - today - via skype.
I would think that with something in the nature of designing a product for consumer use, along with the safety implications, preferences for consumption of a product, etc. Double blind tests would be of great value in narrowing down how a consumer chooses.
Educators already use it (in a different form) and even in politics, with people unaware as they participate, in group surveys and focus groups (they unwittingly reveal preferences in which way a phrase or word is used). That was an extreme example but it's done all the time.
I just resent it that it's always hauled out in these threads as the answer to all differences and does nothing, really, to further discourse and enjoyment. But in the end, like you said, it's all good. 👍
geoffkait"An old philosopher once said, never go test something at someone else’s system. You might not like what you hear" I am unafraid I will test cable directionality no problem and donate my $25K USD winnings to charity lets see if gdhal means business or is just another winkly dinkler!
When a group of people all hear the same thing, at the same time, in the same setting, and under the same circumstances, double blind testing would be entirely redundant.... Double blind testing would only serve to dumb down an event which is in it's very nature....
@nonoise
It's okay if we agree to disagree. All good :)
To my way of thinking, the fact that the group all heard the same thing is precisely the reason for the blind test; to do away with "bias". The blind test would serve as confirmation or further evidence. It doesn't dumb it down, it smartens it up.
So given your position on the matter, under what scenario should a blind test be used?
Wasn’t the test basically blind since nobody knew which direction would be the preferred direction, for each cable tested? Even the person reversing the cable didn’t know a priori. Unless the cables are marked for direction you can’t tell by looking at them. If they were marked, they wouldn’t have had to test them, no? Looks blind to me. 👀
gdhalI’m in the U.S. (Long Island specifically) and I am referring to U.S. dollars. $25K is acceptable, but my preference would be half that. Keep in mind you and I would incur attorneys fees as well... I’ll await your PM.
$25K USD is fine however you have issued a public challenge so all negotiations must be in public so that we can settle this matter for once and for all! I will travel to US at my expense well it will be your expense this is not a hard matter to prove even though so many scream snake oil!
When a group of people all hear the same thing, at the same time, in the same setting, and under the same circumstances, double blind testing would be entirely redundant.
The only testing needed would be to determine why it happened, if they felt compelled to do so, and not at the behest of others.
Double blind testing would only serve to dumb down an event which is in it's very nature. I think no one could argue that almost any event can be double blinded down to pure chance. It's like I've said before: a cheap parlor trick.
About 2/3s of the way down in the article, they tried reversing cables and all of them heard a different, and better direction. It was quite obvious.
@nonoise
I looked at the article. You’re referring to the statement "We listened to 20 different cables. We directionalized them all first, of course. Every cable sounds different in a different direction. It’s small, but it sounds different. ."
Thing is, no where in the article does it mention they were able to hear a difference via a blind test.
This is the reason for the blind test; to take any bias out of the equation and draw a distinction between what one believes/thinks and what can be demonstrated repeatedly.
Yes, I’m in the U.S. (Long Island specifically) and I am referring to U.S. dollars. $25K is acceptable, but my preference would be half that. Keep in mind you and I would incur attorneys fees as well, so I’d like to budget some funds for that. While I’m sure we could agree to terms, I’m not open to traveling abroad. Would you travel to my location?
Also, there is a lot of minutiae you and I would need to agree upon before we really go further. If you’re not in the U.S., we can skype first, etc. Tell you what, send a me a PM. I’ll respond with my skype ID and shall be available later today. Let’s get acquainted, shall we?
Parameters such as, but not limited to, wire brand and type used for test, number of attempts in total, number of attempts that must be passed (i.e. determined correctly by you), whom would witness, etc. need to be agreed to. Admittedly, the devil is in the details, and the contractual arrangements alone could take a while before you and I agree (assuming we do) to the terms.
Once again, people are glossing over some things here. On another thread, someone posted that Pink Floyd sound engineers built a recording studio and it details what they went through to get it right. About 2/3s of the way down in the article, they tried reversing cables and all of them heard a different, and better direction. It was quite obvious. Then even heard a difference in the grounding cables direction.
Why is it that some here only rely on what can be measured and not heard? You're invoking a rather backward way of thinking. One analogy that comes to mind is with our justice system. Any judge will tell you that circumstantial evidence carries every bit of weight as direct evidence.
Without circumstantial evidence (like actually hearing) there would be no progress. It leads us to figure out, to backward engineer something so as to fit and validate our observations.
To someone thinking outside the box, it's painfully obvious that what is presently being measured isn't fully being measured. Most likely due to the limits of the test equipment. Naysayers should be wearing robes and hold fast to their manual, armed with switches to punish those who'd dare disagree.
gdhal"Would you say that wire is directional? And, if you answer yes, would you say you could *hear* a difference if connected one direction or another?If you answer yes to both, I have a business proposition - directly related to this thread - for you (or anyone who answers yes to both questions for that matter). Broadly, the proposition involves either a blind or double blind test where it is my position that you *cannot* reliably hear a difference, and it would be your position that you could reliably hear a difference. If interested, and if the amount is worthwhile (low five figures?) we can have our attorney’s draw up the contracts, establish an escrow account and so on."
Are we talking USD here when you reference "low five figures"" If so, would $25,000 USD be acceptable to you? I believe you are in the US so this would involve air travel to me you need to make this worthwhile I will probably donate my money to a good cause after I complete your test. We would each put this money as cash into escrow to insure payment!
I would not question your assertion that in some fashion, the drawing/manufacturing process results in (however minute) directional differences in wire. I do question (actually doubt) whether you, or anybody, can actually hear the result of those differences when the wire is used in an audio system, no matter how high quality the system.
Just to clarify again, I’m saying all wire is directional. The wire in all fuses, the wire in interconnects, speaker wire, the wire in power cords, internal speaker wire, transformers, the wire in capacitors, you name it. That’s why I suggested all one has to do to test this theory is flip the interconnects around assuming they aren’t shielded. But even if they are shielded it might be worth a shot. Somebody, please, put this puppy to rest! 🐶
Here is a copy/duplication of my 03-10-2018 6:55pm post herein. Not "clear" to me (pun intended) why you couldn't find it. -------------------
@geoffkait
Your point about not linking to old posts because you may have more current data to offer is a fair reply. Thanks.
To your point about knowing that wire is directional, I'm using Belden 5T00UP speaker wire. Would you say that wire is directional? And, if you answer yes, would you say you could *hear* a difference if connected one direction or another?
If you answer yes to both, I have a business proposition - directly related to this thread - for you (or anyone who answers yes to both questions for that matter). Broadly, the proposition involves either a blind or double blind test where it is my position that you *cannot* reliably hear a difference, and it would be your position that you could reliably hear a difference.
If interested, and if the amount is worthwhile (low five figures?) we can have our attorney's draw up the contracts, establish an escrow account and so on.
gdhal"obviously if a forum member could demonstrate they could hear a difference with said cable oriented one way or the other, they would have taken me up on the offer I made herein this thread on 03-10-2018 6:55pm" I am sorry I don't see that offer in my feed here could you please repeat it for the beenfit of the rest of us? If you are offering actual financial renumeration I would like to participate NOT because I need the money but to simply put this matter to rest for once and for all. I can assure you confidentally well in advance of any such test that you must be prepared to part with your money because I have already past these double blinded tests on multilpe occassions as has been documented elsewhere.
Obviously if a manufacturer could prove their high end cable to be audibly superior to others then you can bet one or more of the hundreds of manufacturers would be offering demonstrations - quickest way to make millions of $ so it is not like there is no incentive to prove the superiority of a product.
+1
And, obviously if a forum member could demonstrate they could hear a difference with said cable oriented one way or the other, they would have taken me up on the offer I made herein this thread on 03-10-2018 6:55pm.
shadorne"Obviously if a manufacturer could prove their high end cable to be audibly superior to others then you can bet one or more of the hundreds of manufacturers would be offering demonstrations"
Actually the simple and easily shown proof of this matter is that both manufacturers and audio dealers perform these kinds of demonstrations all of the time so what you might consider is actually attending one of these demonstrations using an actual Music Reproduction System and see and hear for yourself that you're information here is profoundly misinformed but of course it is easier to simply proselytize from the comfort of your easy chair than actually undertake any listening tests.
Of course, the obvious counter-argument is that it’s actually the better designed and built electronics - you could say the Super Expensive high end electronics - that benefit most from using better more expensive cables. I bet you didn’t see that coming. 👀
I don’t think anybody would seriously bother. Cables make little to no difference as anyone can verify themselves easily - provided they have good equipment. If you have big differences then get better matching equipment, repair it or get rid of it.
Nobody who sells high end cables does double blind because it would show that special high $ cables dont work (unless they have a filter) and ordinary cables are just perfect as good audio systems are designed that way - so there is no interest to prove that cable products are just snake oil and hence none of the sellers or manufactures offer any form of proof.
Obviously if a manufacturer could prove their high end cable to be audibly superior to others then you can bet one or more of the hundreds of manufacturers would be offering demonstrations - quickest way to make millions of $ so it is not like there is no incentive to prove the superiority of a product.
The problem is statements like that, that everyone is welcome to their opinion, or that if someone feels like he doesn’t have to go high end, are OK, and can be quite soothing and conciliatory but do not (rpt not) address the actual heart ❤️ of the debate, you know, the one that’s been raging like a California wildfire 🔥for 40 years. Which is is there an audible difference among cables (or fuses)? (I know two is’s in a row again). All we have so far (if I can be so bold to summarize) is a lot of who shot John. “If someone did a blind test...” “If someone measured them...” “Let your ears decide...”
The two camps (believers/non-believers) will probably always remain with us. To me, that's ok and really not important. What I believe each of us enthusiasts should focus on is being happy with how our system sounds to us, regardless of what it is made up of. Just my 2c worth.
nugat Of course pundits here will claim that there is no method to reliably study human hearing which is quantum phenomenally more sensitive than any measurements.
>>>>That can’t be right since human hearing ability varies all over the place. Also it’s patently false that sound is completely determined by how the ears transmit acoustic vibration to the brain. That’s one of those beliefs we assume we learned somewhere along the line that everyone agrees must be true. What else could it be, right? But that’s a subject for another thread, another time, partner. 🤠
I’m not against scientific studies, and gaining broader knowledge. For me, they just don't have much relevance or usefulness when pursuing greater musical enjoyment from my personal system. I'd rather have recommendations from one or more people with similar tastes and goals to mine, whose ears I trust.
„People and their ears are redundant”. Half-joke in response to claims here that double blind method cannot study human behavior. So eliminate humans. But in fact, if you check for error rates of digital transmission in cables the observer’s opinions are irrelevant. The same you can do with „voltage transmission”. Of course pundits here will claim that there is no method to reliably study human hearing which is quantum phenomenally more sensitive than any measurements.
Of course BS, I explained above it was a joke about directionality of cables. Another telling feature of those exchanges is that people often read only their own posts.
... That
process can be a subject of scientific research. What goes into the
cable and what comes out. People and their ears are redundant here.
Really nobody has done it in the whole world?
You may very well be the first to suggest that when it comes to audio cable research, people and their ears are redundant. Perhaps you'll undertake the research that you're so surprised remains unexplored. If so, please report back with the results.
That’s a peculiar statement, considering “people and their ears” are the whole point of the exercise. Say you run tests & measurements on a pair of speaker cables, and tell me they are passing the signal perfectly. I then put them in my system and live with them for a while. If my ears tell me something is not right, or they are not as good as what I was using, I’m going with my ears.
Yes, that kind of research has been done. Sorry I can't point you to anything specific off the top of my head. Some of it has been done by cable manufacturers, who may choose to keep it proprietary.
Cables are not about soundwaves and hearing. Loudspeakers, rooms and brain+ears are. Cables are about carrying voltage that tells loudspeakers how to move air. Amplifiers generate the voltage and cables are supposed to carry it as faithfully as possible to transducers. That process can be a subject of scientific research. What goes into the cable and what comes out. People and their ears are redundant here. Really nobody has done it in the whole world?
The problem with the neutrinos was they went back in time and disappeared off the screen. Just like the De Lorean in Back to the Future. That’s how Superman saved Lois Lane, by racing around the Earth a bunch of times faster than the speed of light. Duh!
@geoffkait
Are you sure you're not a Grateful Dead "Head"? You've obviously had way to much electric koolaid. :)
IMO, learning to navigate the often murky waters of reviews, subjective experiences & impressions, anecdotes etc., and find the bits & patterns relevant to your particular preferences, goals and situation, is an essential part of this hobby. Sometimes, whether you like it or not, they are all you have to work with.
nugat OP At NASA there is a strict regulation to observe directionality of cables. Otherwise false discoveries could result like that at CERN where some neutrinos were faster than light.
The problem with the neutrinos was they went back in time and disappeared off the screen. Just like the De Lorean in Back to the Future. That’s how Superman saved Lois Lane, by racing around the Earth a bunch of times faster than the speed of light. Duh!
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