An universal tonearm is indeed possible. Technics R&B devision and Micro Seiki with the MAX-237/282 have shown the path. The question remains, whether there is not a too serious trade-off in other vital areas. I.e. whether the "price" you pay for "universality" isn't too high. I am sure, that Raul and his comrade Guillermo will come up with a very nice tonearm. However, if we look at today's top-tier cartridges, do we really need an "universal" tonearm? Most top cartridges today do feature a body mass which is NOT ideally suited to the now common comparatively high compliance in LOMCs ( and the few LOMIs, LOMMs are less than 5% of the market for top-cartridges) . Raul, - this is for you now: IMHO ...(...;-) ...) I think that the "key" to real improvement (i.e.: ABOVE the top level we are used to...) in tonearm/cartridge-performance (I do see these two NOT as independent components, but as 2 parts of ONE system) is the perfect mechanic-dynamic synergy of these two. The real problem today is, that cartridge and tonearm - as well as LOMCs and SUTs ... - are viewed by most as being individual components. They are not.
Some of us do remember times, when there were cartridges and tonearms available, which were made to match each other ( see some of Raul's MMs and the respective tonearms by Technics and others ).
I really do look forward to Raul's and Guillermo's tonearm. If they succeed in their task to an universal tonearm it will get my respect. |
Lewn, Halcro is using copperhead not cobra. |
And Copperhead is cheap? I guess it costs less than the Cobra, which would still put it at or above the cost of most of the other "best" tonearms, except perhaps the Grandezza. My mentioning the cost is not meant as criticism or sarcasm; I would love to hear any of those three. I just bought a Technics EPA500 with the lightweight arm tube, merely to see/learn whether it will enhance the performance of my collection of vintage MM/MI cartridges, which don't seem to like my Dynavector tonearm very well. (Haven't tried any of them in the Triplanar as of yet.) |
Dear Dertonarm: The Guillermo and I main target on our tonearm design is not mainly what MS, Technics and others did it in their designs to give the user/customer own tonearm facilities to match cartridge/tonearm resonance frequency, this is important but I learn that there are other more critical factors down there that affect the quality performance level.
As you point out our main target is that through " perfect mechanic-dynamic " each cartridge you mount in our tonearm can shows at its best like in almost no any other tonearm and this is our meaning of " universal tonearm ".
It is a very hard challenge for any one that want to design a tonearm. Are there trade-offs to achieve that target?, certainly are and Guillermo and I really analize each one of them and its influence ( what we are " loosing " in change of what. ) on playback quality performance level, even if a customer could detect something because those trade-offs.
Design a tonearm with our main target is a deep learning in something that appear very simple: a tonearm design is no rocket to Pluton!, but when you understand that that tonearm is only a 1/2-half product and you need to add the cartridge ( that fussy and multifacetic cartridge along several and different cartridges!!!. ) ) in the " equation " design then that simple tonearm design converts in something more a lot more complex.
It is not only our each one skills to design it but the way we use those skills where the time consuming on tests/voicing is higher than I could imagine at first but a extreme necessity to confirm if we are just " there ".
These tests take me and still take not only several hours for cartridges set up but to listening. I have to develop a process that make me not only more " easy " to find out/detect the differences but that asure me those differences were real because are these differences the ones that tell you if the " light " is still off or you already switch: ON!.
We are ( I think. ) at the finish part/step/stage of our tonearm design and we hope to share it to all of you in the next months ( 2011. ).
Anyway an interesting project full of several learning subjects and full of fun.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Has Mike Lavinge expressed his views on the comparison between the two tonearms in another thread?
I was looking forward to reading his version of events.... |
Dear Raul,
I'm wondering what principles first guide your design choices for this 'Universal' tonearm?
Do you start with a low mass design for high compliance cartridges (which you prefer) and then 'tweek' it to sound well with low compliance cartidges or vice versa?
I'm guessing that in any case it's a unipivot design......right?
Good luck
Henry |
Kostas,
Yes he has - look under the comments on his system page. |
What Palasr said.
I sensed that most of the listeners came into the room with a bias, and since the test was hardly blinded, let alone double-blinded, most people I talked to "heard" differences that were ascribable to their own perceptions of how the two designs SHOULD differ sonically, given the differences in their construction. I am not saying this is the case for Mike L, since I did not get to talk to him after the session. Anyway, he has a much better data base (extensive listening in his home environment) for making a judgement.
All I could tell was that I heard two different tonearm/cartridge/phono stage systems that sounded different from each other, not surprisingly and given my rather poor listening position. |
Dear Halcro: Principles first guide on our tonearm design?, well first than all understand in a precise way the overall role of the tonearm/cartridge works. Not only on mechanical or geometrical levels but really " see " inside what a cartridge is asking for and how the tonearm could help to achieve what each one cartridge ask for shows at its best.
This " ask for " means how attain that the tonearm relationship with the cartridge could be nearest to " invisible/transparent " one with almost no influence.
Cartridge compliance is important but was and is only one factor in a tonearm design and IMHO not the one that mainly defined our tonearm design. Things were a little more complex than that. Either the pivot type ( unipivot, gimball or whatever. ) as important as it is was not either the main subject to attain our " universal " goal.
Obviously that these factors/subjects as many others were take it in count and important in the design.
I can't disclose yet ( till we have the patents on hand. ) the overall design but as I posted we hope could do it in the first middle of 2011.
All I can say is that is an interesting tonearm design that fulfill almost all needs of we customers/audiophiles as never before.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
i abstained from posting in this thread until now as i had a few strong feelings about the event for awhile after and thought that would be best. as far as how things came together that evening; with the perspective of over three weeks i'll just say that Joel was dealt an unfair hand, but pointing fingers serves no purpose and i don't think any intent to be unfair was present.
i know it was not supposed to be a shootout; but honestly what the heck else did anyone think it could be? even when Frank changed cartridges and phono's, it was still a shootout.
as far as my perspective coming into the event; anyone who cares can read my system page about that, i won't get into it here. i'll just say i have my biases.
i spent some time in that room prior to that evening; i hung out on that floor alot as other rooms there had my interest. then Saturday night i showed up at 7:30pm, an hour early, to make sure i got a good seat. i was in the third row center until around 11pm. so i had a very good seat.
the room was filled with really nice gear; but it never really synergized to my ears. which allowed one to listen for the sound, as the music mostly did not cast it's typical spell. this is not to criticize any of the gear, or Tom, or anyone. Tom has already spoken about this.
i live with multiple arms, cartridges and phono stages every day, and these arms were very familiar to me. not that i'm as good at this as many in this room filled with analog Icons.
my impressions.
i heard nothing that surprised me. is this because i made up my mind ahead of time?
the Talea had much better sense of organization, it had better precision, it had an ease in the groove and clarity better than the Schroeder. the Talea did more space and microdynamics. i will say that the Schroeder went a bit deeper in the bass; although based on my time in Frank's room listening to his phono stage (and knowing from my multiple phono stages how this factor works), i'd assign that factor mostly to the phono stage.
Frank's first cut was 'Neverglade' from 'Into the Great Wide Yonder', Trentemoller. i've since purchased this Lp and another by this artist. the cut is spacey electronic music. the Talea nailed it in terms of detail and texture; it was relatively 'homogenized' by the Schroeder. i liked it on both arms but it was real on the Talea.
early in the session there was a piano track where the Talea had much more detail and clarity. more pluck and decay. more definition.
mostly this was not a good-bad kind of thing but degrees of good. the one glaring exception was later when they played the Basie 88. this is a long term demo track of mine; i've likely played it 1000 times. early in this track there is a muted trumpet which is a torture test for dealing with arm reasonance. what's interesting is that the 33rpm pressing of this track is easy for any cartridge, but the 45rpm track is very difficult. until the Schroeder played it i was not sure it was the 45.
the Talea sailed thru it perfectly. the Schroeder came unglued completely.
again; i've had both arms in my system and nothing i heard was a surprise.
that's one guys biased viewpoint. |
Dear Mike,
Many thanks for enriching this thread with your detailed contribution - on top of documenting it in your system page. It was not easy and I am appreciative of your effort.
Your post raises a few questions, cardinal amongst them whether similar events could be anything but a 'shootout'.
I believe they can - when they are modelled on the paradigm of a few friends visiting an audiophile's home to evaluate changes on his/her system: strong beliefs still emerge about differences - but that is as far as it goes.
However, my belief system is occasionally tinted by romanticism :-) |
Dear Kostas: IMHO I think it could not be in other way, as you say anything but a shootout but even way before the event take action both designers agree that that was not a shootout so I think that no one that attend were waiting for other that to grow up the people frienship.
Lewm put in very good terms that subject when he posted:
+++++ " to their own perceptions of how the two designs SHOULD differ sonically, given the differences in their construction. All I could tell was that I heard two different tonearm/cartridge/phono stage systems that sounded different from each other, " +++++
I think this is what almost all heard in that event and IMHO could not be in other way with two different signal sources and at the same time with two way different signal process phono stages.
Probably next time things could be different. I hope be there this next time.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Hi Mikelavigne,
I had exactly the same impressions. And so did two others that I was with in the room. I think the differences were pretty obvious. That being said, I have no idea what was the greatest contributing factor. I am wondering about the Soundsmith cartridge compared to the Dyanvector though. Your comment about the Basie 45-vs-33 comparison was interesting. Could the differences that you heard be a function of the cartridge as opposed to the arm? |
Ttbolad,
i've heard the Sussaro 5 or 6 times now and have always liked it and a few times loved it. i consider it to be in the same general performance class as the Ortofon A90 or Dyna XV1s.
i remember last year at RMAF in the Soundsmith room there was a Sussaro on Chris Brady's new arm and and on a VPI arm. the sound was totally different; i loved it on Chris's arm and thought it was just Ok on the VPI; and then there was another Sussaro on the tt in the Lotus Design room which was different in another way. but all three of those Sussaro's were well behaved and solid sounding on those three different arms.
i owned the original Dyna XV-1s for a year; so i'm fairly familiar with it.
i have heard both the Schroeder and Talea with multiple cartridges and i'm use to switching cartridges back and forth among my arms.
still; your question is a good one and no final answer can be found without actually specifically listening to the arms with multiple cartridges.
but my 'opinion' is that i have a good enough feel for these arms and cartridges that i have a pretty good idea of what the arms are doing.
as far as the distortion on the Basie 88; i'm going to assume that Frank would not have choosen the Sussaro if there was an incompatability that would result in that problem. but who knows? |
I am really sorry I did not stay long enough to hear the Basie LPs. I am very familiar with that music and that session and might have gotten a better idea about what was going on with the tonearms. Prior to that, and up to the time I retreated to Steve Dobbins' room, none of the musical selections were my "cup of tea", so to speak. Mike, the Beat is fabulous and delicious; I am envious. |
OK tonearm guru's.
Help. My Talea ll is on it's way. I have an Allnic Puritas on loan. 11 gram weight. 18 ohm impedence.
Ralph, what did you mean by changing effective mass by repositioning the three seperate weights on the Triplanar?. Is there something I need to know to get the best out of the Talea/Puritas combo?. It appears to me that the weight of 11 grams for the cart is on the high side?.
Mike, any advice on setup?.
Anyone else may also lend a hand.
Will a 100 Ohm impedence on my Atma-Sphere MP-1 pre be too low for a cart with an 18 Ohm internal impedence?.
So many questions, so little listening time. |
Bill,
You need to experiment with your MP-1 loading. I've run as high as wide open (47K - no loading resistors) with an XV-1s. On other phono stages with the XV-1s, I've run as low as 35 ohms.
Tri-Planars, Moerchs, Taleas, and a few other arms come with multiple counterweights.
If you use a heavier combination of weights, closer to the bearing pivot (adjusting for desired tracking force), you'll have a lower effective mass than by using a lighter weight combination located farther from the pivot.
Listen for bass tonality, and adjust accordingly.
Lastly, your dealer should be able to guide you through this. If they don't know the answer, then I'd contact Joel Durand so that he can educate them.
Trust your ears.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
Will a 100 Ohm impedence on my Atma-Sphere MP-1 pre be too low for a cart with an 18 Ohm internal impedence?. when Steve Dobbins was in my room recently he set up the Allnic Puritas on the Reed. i cannot remember the VTF he used but it was still breaking in. you could e-mail him. vetterone@msn.com we tried 30k but preferred 47k thru the new Allnic H3000 phono stage. it sounded terrific and only had 5 hours on it. i'm very likely going to take Steve up on his offer to work out a trade of the Puritas with one of my A90's. the puritas was a very fine cartridge. |
HI Cus',
the XV-1s weighs 12.6 grams so your cart should work fine on the Talea.
Don't worry too much about tweaking and such in the beginning, just follow the manual. The Talea will allow your cartridge to sing right out of the box. As you get used to the features you'll be able to decide what to do. |
Mike, I did not want to bring it up the other day on this thread, because I thought it was OT, but I thought the Puritas sounded fabulous in the Reed on the Beat turntable. In my brief listening, I preferred it over the A90, in that system. I guess it IS OT to have written this, but what the heck. |
Thanks for the info guys. I think this should be good.
The Talea 11 has arrived, and let me start by saying that the packaging is fabulous. Attention to detail is the best I have ever seen. I already know it is going to be amazing.
First order of business, slowly and carefully put it together.
Let me get myself into a bit of hot water first. Years ago I purchased an RS Labs A1 arm. At the time I was using a Koetsu Black on a GyroDec. When I changed tables, I was at a point in life where I didn't have the time to optimize this ridiculous arm. I then bought the Triplanar. With the recent purchase of the TTWeights Black Onyx, and after listening to the Tri for a couple of months, I got the courage to take a day and try the RS Labs. After the very first track, my wife ordered me to sell the Triplanar, no contest (for our listening priorities).
Any and all comments made by me will be in relation to the RS Labs. |
Cousinbillyl, seems like most of your questions are answered but the loading. I think you will find the loading to be not that critical. With LOMC cartridges, the inductance of the cartridge and the capacitance of the cable can form a tuned radio frequency circuit. What the load is doing is reducing the 'Q' of the circuit- detuning it. It has to be right value to do this.
However, a lot has to do with the RF immunity of the phono preamp. So in general you will find that the more the preamp is upset by ultrasonic RF noise, the more critical the load becomes. With our stuff the big thing you hear is reduced noise in the background- not too much on the tonality side. This suggests that the phono stage does not care too much if RF is present (as happens with an unloaded cartridge) at its input.
Clear as mud?? -have a good weekend! |
Dear Vertigo: IF you want a good alternaive to almost any other tonearm name it here this one could help you:
http://ierihon.com.ua/catalog/tonarmy/tonarm_4
owners said is the best and the one to go.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
or you can choose between these:
http://ierihon.com.ua/catalog/tonarmy
Have fun! |
Thank you Ralph (Atmasphere)
I will not worry about loading until I get a better handle on the arm / cart combo.
I did take about 3 hours of slow, careful, assembly/aligning before I even tried an album.
Let me start by saying that I am unquallified to discuss the Talea 11 / Allnic Puritas combo. There is something definately different that I can't get my head around. The first album I put on was an 180 gm version of Sarah Vaughn. What I heard was too clear, too focused, too relaxed. This is something I am totally unaccustomed to.
I just listened to Dire Straits Communique, 180 gm,......, absolutely fabulous, but still too clear.
I should not have sold my ZYX Universe so quick. You should never change two things at once.
I will now go and listen to Cat Stevens 'Tea for the Tillerman', and Bruce Cockburn 'Love will find a way'. These are two of my favorite ablums. This should help me figure out what's happening. |
What do you mean by "too clear"? I ask because "clear" would seem to be a desirable quality, and I don't know that one can have too much of it. Do you mean to imply that the sound is "clinical", in the way that solid state can sound if you are used to tubes? Yes, it would have been best to listen to the Talea initially in an otherwise totally familiar milieu (i.e., with the ZYX). Still got the Koetsu? Oh, and does the Talea beat up on the RS-A1? It's probably a silly question.
Out of curiosity, what happens with the early adopters who bought the Talea I? Do/did they get an upgrade? |
Hi Lew,
All of the early adopters have been made a handsome upgrade offer which lasts through the end of the year. I've never seen a manufacturer participate so heavily in helping owners make a change to a new version.
Of course, the trade-in offer year will bring some special opportunities for Version-IÂ’s to those who might otherwise be priced out of a Talea. For that, you can watch the Durand page, the Galibier Bargain Bin, as well as offerings from his other dealers.
It was never Joel's intent to make so many changes so soon, and Joel and I had more than one conversation about this release following so quickly on the heels of the introductory offering – this, coming from a fellow who took 9 years to find ways to improve his Gavia and Stelvio turntables.
As Joel worked on addressing customer feedback on the ergonomics in the Version-I, the concurrent improvement in sonics was too great to delay. With introductory pricing scheduled to expire, it made sense to release the changes for those paying the post-introductory price, while at the same time, paying thanks to the early adopters.
I can give you more background on how this evolved, and specifically what changes were made and why, but I think this is best handled in a private e-mail and not on this forum. If you're interested in my take on the differences between the two versions, you can contact me offline. I believe we may be meeting again at a customer of mine and a neighbor of yours in a few weeks, and I can cover this in more detail there.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
Hello Lewm
12 noon and I just got out of bed. We where up till 4 am listening. 'Too clear' has changed to 'Wow, that's amazing'. The RS Labs A1 has been beat.
Now comes the long road of 'I should be tweaking instead of just listening'.
I will wait till the arm and cart are broken in before I start making further comments.
I am in awe of Joel's achievement. |
Cousinbillyl, its always a good idea to give a cartridge a few hours of play to break in! 50-70s hours is common, only after that time would I play with tweaks. You don't want natural changes in the cartridge to create confusion. |
I have yet to experience a cartridge whose essential character was not revealed to me after 5-7 hours.
It most certainly loosens up and settles in for 25-70 hours, and you should absolutely revisit your entire setup several times (including loading) during that period.
My point however, is to enjoy yourself, and only re-visit this over the coming months as your mood strikes - perhaps after every 5-10 hours of play.
Change the easily accessible parameters (fine adjust of VTF, azimuth, VTA)? You bet! They're easy enough to do with the Talea, but at the same time, don't make yourself crazy over this.
Loading is a bit tricky, as it has an effect on the mechanical damping of the motor assemply, so I wouldn't change this as frequently as the other parameters. You will change your thoughts on this as the suspension loosens up, but focussing on this too much (early on) will drive you batty. There are too many variables to get control of.
Fifty hours of listening is 150 LP's. That can take some time, and if you obsess too much, you'll lose a lot of needless hair, and most importantly, you won't enjoy your hi-fi much.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
We are now at the 20 hour mark.
The arm / cart are breaking in nicely. After some very minor changes, my wife and I are astounded.
The only downside, either really old pressings, or newer 180gram + recordings are the only truly listenable albums. We can really hear the flaws in 80's, and 90's pop / rock pressings. Oh well. |
It's not the tonearm, that's limiting your choice of your record collection, Cousinbilly.
An upgrade can be a cruel mistress until you sort everything out, but when you do, your record collection will be returned to you.
Of course, you'll hear further into the mix with any good arm/cartridge, but assuming you've set it up well, I'd revisit both my turntable and phono stage.
A recent example: in the course of the past two weeks, I've been listening to various equipment combinations to flesh out a new drive system design.
I'm hearing 10-15 dB further into the noise floor with this drive system, and it's exposing the flaws in one step-up transformer - flaws that were somewhat noticable before are now laid bare in bold relief.
Keep the faith ...
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
We are now at ~100 hours.
The Talea ll / Allnic Puritas combo have come into their own. I will add that the Atma-Sphere MP-1mklll pre / MA-1mklll amps help things. The TTWeights mass loaded Black Onyx turntable gives a foundation to the base that is awe inspiring.
The Allnic has an ease from top to bottom that is as articulate as anything I have ever heard. There is such delineation between instruments that one forgets it is a recording. You can almost see fingers on guitar strings, and piano keys, a pianist could probably tell you the type of piano used. This is the best I have ever heard.
Joel has done a superb job. I had no idea how important azimuth was. I do not own a mono recording of a female voice, so can not say I have it bang on, but it is close enough for now.
I thank all of you. The journey is fantastic. |
Thom, Back in November of 2010, did you really mean to say that one would lose a lot of hair, needlessly, or that hair is not needed? As a hair-impaired person, I would tend to disagree with the latter proposition; I really miss my hair and do feel I need(ed) it. |
I havent visited my thread for a while. And when i posted this i never imagined that it would have gone to 5 pages.
It seems the initial comparisons at the show could not provide any meaningful conclusions because the arms were compared with more than only one variable and the integrity of the test was compromised.
It must be a daunting task to do a quality controlled comparison when you've invested so much time and love into your baby. I know i would be scared to be dethroned if i was considered up their with the best.
Maybe this way it does more justice to two great arms that we dont have a definitive answer to which arm appeared to sound better.
It would be fascinating to me to have another go at a "friendly audio enthusiast comparison" between the two arms.
This would be the "boxing ring" where the two heavyweights could meet for the "title match"...
1. Shoot out is done on no earlier than the second day of the show so that each designer feels they have dialed in the table arm cart combo and are satisfied they have set up their arm so that it is operating optimally.
2. Use either A) 2 saskia's or b) One acustic raven with each of the competing arms mounted on it.
3. Both desingers understand 1 and 2 and based upon that agree on a single cart they feel is a satisfying match for their arm and for the system they will be compared in but both must agree to the same cart.
4. All other parameters are identical, ie phonostage , speakers, cables, room etc, etc, even to the point of matching decibal output levels via a test tone and decibal meter prior to playing back a track. A person is assigned to track and set the decibal level.
5. Several generes of music are used in the comparison.
6. People vote on a blank sheet of paper , cast anonymous ballots but cant give head nods or comment verbally until all the votes have been cast.
I think the above would truly be a quality test and i think the arms might be alot closer in terms of their tone then people might think. Its all the other parameters we expect an arm to be able to perform that will probably decide who wins and i figure only by a ...technical knockout. Somehow i doubt that either of these two arms will have the other "reeling on the ropes from a blow!"
It would settle the claim for or against as to whether the talea really is a "game changer or not!" [good marketing hype or?] and maybe schroder
can put the new kid on the block in his place! [ i only jest!]
Wouldn't a schroder talea on a saskia shoot out be wild!?
In the left corner weighing in at 500g the heavy weight champion of the world.....the schroder sq!!!!!!
and in the other corner.....!
Ding! Ding!
*
[smile]
Congratulations to both designs....
*
|
Umm dear Vertigo, You are a true optimist. Here are problems with your proposal:
(1) It closely matches the original plan for the 2010 shoot-out, which did not happen as planned BECAUSE the two tonearm makers could not agree on cartridges, or more correctly, one tonearm maker would not agree to use the Ortofon A90 (I think that was the plan) and at the last minute he also demanded to use a different phono stage.
(2) See #1. What would make you think that the situation next year will be any different?
(3) One thing I came away with for sure: The two tonearms do sound different in and of themselves, so in the end it will be a matter of taste.
(4) Do you think poor Win Tinnon has two 200-lb Saskias that he wants to schlep to Denver from North Carolina, just so two prima donna tonearm makers can argue over cartridges and phono stages?
No offense intended to Messeurs Schroeder and Durand. They have good reason to protect their small bit of turf. |
I agree with Lewm,
IMO it will never happen as long as the manufacturers are involved. I was there at RMAF 2010.
For such a direct and meaningful comparison to take place, I believe it has to be in a private setting, in one system, with privately owned examples of the two arms. The rest of the conditions could be similar to those outlined by Vertigo above. The owner (s) would need to be willing to do the shoot out and then I don't see any obstacles.
Good Luck. I would love to attend that one. |
.
***You are a true optimist.**** [smiling]
No, I'm a dreamer!!!!
[...like i said above... "wouldn't it be wild?!!!!"]
Yes!...it would!
Imagine that ...2 saskias! One with a talea, one with a schroder. Both set up to the designers satisfaction and by their expertise!
The post was what i would consider one of my ultimate "fantasy shoot outs" [which always includes "controlled" testing] and only ONE variable and just the thought of it was thrilling!
Didn't i mention it would be daunting? I realize that it would be difficult for them to say yes to such a thing because of the ramifications of the outcomes. Even in the that controlled environment, there are still problems with it.
In short comparisons with limited discs your understanding of "which is the better arm" is weak. When we listen we focus on one aspect of the music at a time but it takes several listens to the same track, to get a more complete picture and bottom line. Sometimes with some aspects it can take months to wrap ones mind around whether they like one arm over the other. No?
Then theres the problem of the publicity of the results, the blanket statements that will be made afterwards , which assumes that the conclusions are definitive and objective.
Plus, the shoot out is still being done in isolation to hundreds of other systems out there and so while one arm might work better in one system it might not in another.
If the larger community of audiophiles really understood that such a shoot in the final analysis doesnt really amount to much, then we can just all have fun and shake hands and still be willing to explore BOTH arms in our own systems.
**** Do you think poor Win Tinnon has two 200-lb Saskias that he wants to schlep to Denver from North Carolina, just so two prima donna tonearm makers can argue over cartridges and phono stages?***
[smiling] Relax! I was just dreaming out loud! [smile] and...just throwing it out there...who knows!...maybe this dream might gain some momentum! ...I realize how much work and how expensive it must be to move those saskias and the economy isnt doing so well but maybe it would be some good exposure for his tables to be involved in such a shoot out? And maybe he's up for some good fun and thats reason enough for him?
I did realize the logistical problems with that and that is why i offered option "B", which was ...making use of a single acustic raven table, just throwing ideas out there and having fun. I picked those two off the top of my head because when i think of them i think "low noise" tables. It could be any table though.
If 100 people voted anonymously and 60 chose schroder and 40 talea, does that mean anything? Do most people have a refined enough palate to pick out the 200 dollar bottle of wine from the 60 dollar?
If boston wins the stanley cup does that mean they are the better team? I guess one could ask me...If you think all that and believe it to be true why do you propose the above shoot out in the first place or suggest it?
Well, because they are both respectable arms and for the sheer pleasure of making the comparison! in good fun! just for the sport of it!
. |
Vertigo,
I doubt any of the arms would be better than your Breuer w. Allaerts combination for what they do best. I owned that match and that is one of the great combinations. Only difference is I went up the Allaerts tree. But... the MC1b mk2 is great in its own right and the upgrade is not necessarily better and there are qualities of the MC1b that are better than the MC2 Finish.
In a nutshell, yes no best but there are great combinations out there. Not all needs to be equal to do a comparison. You just need to compare different great combinations. And yes a phono stage is part of the equation. |
Dear Vertigo,
I was trying for humor too, in conjuring up the image of Win lugging two Saskias to Denver. Anyway, for me it would be much much more thrilling to meet Penelope Cruz than to hear a bunch of old farts argue about the "sound" of two tonearms. |
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Dgad,
That helps thanks!
Also...
***You just need to compare different great combination's***
That just about sums it up and is a good formula for building a system.
What tonearm/cart combos have you liked alot?
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Vertigo,
TW arm w. MC2 Finish, and Schroeder SQ w. Titan i (but the setup is critical). These 2 are believe it or not close in sound (neither on the same arm will sound that close) and are what I consider fairly neutral.
I did love my Koetsu Jade w. an Ikeda but... it still remained a Koetsu both good and bad.
For me the MC1bmk2 is a superior alternative to Koetsu. All the magic with better dynamics. Nice amount of gain and build quality is very nice. I got off the cartridge merry go round years ago w. what I have listed above. There are only 1 or 2 cartridges that might interest me. The XV-1T and if Lyra replaces the Titan i.
Also the ZYX universe which is quiet now on Agon was a great cartridge in the Schroeder. It lacked some things but did things no others do. What was nice is having different cartridge/ arm combinations allowed you to compensate for different LPs where the recording or sound needed something different.
But do not sell what you have. Keep it. It is a winner. Maybe add a 2nd alternative, but trust me you will miss it. I know I miss quite a few of my previous cartridges. |
Wouldn't a schroder talea on a saskia shoot out be wild!? it depends on your level of understanding what is going on. When you like to watch horse races and there are some cows running there too with a nice and expensive saddle, the jockeys onto say it is the best experience ever and you enjoy that...fun counts. But when you prefer real horses... |
Dgad,
With the my allaerts mc1b mk2 cart and breuer 8c mk2 , based upon what i could learn through forums like these, reviews and a bit of hard thinking, i go by faith that what i have is very very good and maybe even better than i know? Because i have owned less than 2 combinations ever! that is why , the rest of the way i have to go by faith. I dont have a extravagant budget, just extravagant tastes and appetites! so i did my research decided on the above cart. Next came the breuer using the same logic. ie, which arm is a really good arm, maybe a last... and a good match for the allaerts. I wanted to get to the "top" [or in that region at least], pay the price of admission, see if they "get me there" and stop looking and shopping. This arm and this cart seemed great candidates to accomplish that. I appreciate your response because it helps to build confidence that i've made the right decisions. Especially when it is coming from a schroder sq[a arm i have always been infatuated with]/titan i, owner who has owned the same combo on a table of the likes of the acustic and from a audiophile who has probably heard and owned more combos than i have. Maybe i exaggerate in my minds eye ,how good the schroder would sound because of my infatuation with it?
Your two combos sound similar. That is very interesting. So, my combo too, must be in some ways be in the vicinity of the schroder/ titan combo too. Therefore i kinda have some of the degree of skill of the schroder with my breuer, so i can be content.
Things will start to get blurry now as i try to predict how what you heard with the breuer/allaerts combo [on an acustic table] and what i hear with it on my lenco 78[wood/dmf panzerholz armboard] table, how the sound is different? Not to mention our other system differences which are many. [smiling] Like i said its going to get blurry![smile] Having said that ...in general terms...we are both very excited by what we hear, so it seems we are able to communicate some general truths about the virtues of this combo!!!
I bought the allaerts new so i could have a warranty and because i wanted to know that i was getting a good cart. So you could say i'm married to it, not just living together!...[laughing] Because it is staying so will the breuer.
I own a "true vintage" j45 gibson guitar. It uses all solid woods, real bone for its nut and bridge, rosewood fretboard, and even bonded with old school method of "hot hide glue" and i can hear the difference between a similar guitar made from synthetic materials and mine. Mine has a deep, earthy, buttery tone. A smoothness. That is partly what attracts me to the schroder. Maybe the difference between our construction materials in regards to what our table are made from gives me some of the attributes of wood that i think i would like. Having a acustic 1 table would probably tell alot.
I'm guessing that where the two combos depart slightly from each other is in this area? I'm talking fine degrees. As you mention they sound very similar but i would venture the schroder combo still is a few degrees more bent toward the mid range euphonics side of things[ i mean this as a virtue] .More organic, earthy midrange, while the other is more toward neutral , clean,sparkle and silky? The schroder has a "thicker" subcontext or texture to its tone and presentation? no?
Syntax, I think to some degree i have the capacity to enjoy such a comparison on both levels.
Ps...Lewn [smile]...I'm still too young to be put in the category of old fa--. I'm somewhere in between young whipper snapper and that ....AND thanks to my dad I DO still have a full head of hair...[smile] |
Vertigo,
I have no experience w. a Lenco or any of the direct drive tables now in fashion. In that regard I will divert to you for how that will affect your overall sound.
But...funny to read your post above, you are almost spot on in your differentiation of the 2 combinations I currently own. More correct on the SQ/Titan i. That is why it is a great match. On point of interest if phono stage is critical in the characterization of the sound. In that regard, my phono stage matches well with both cartridges but probably better w. the Titan i which has more gain than the Allaerts which needs a ton of gain (.20mVolts).
But the Allaerts is more detailed than the Titan i w. a touch of silky smoothness. The highs are excellent with no brightness or glare. The Titan i is more full bodied in the SQ than the Allaerts at the expense of detail. The Titan i has a ton of energy and needs an arm that can handle the cartridge.
I need to move the cartridges between arms but the SQ is so difficult to setup that i don't want to fuss with it. I don't have much time to listen these days so the setup and changing cartridges has been on indefinite hold.
Your arm/cartridge combination is amazing. They are a perfect match for each other. Great for Jazz, Vocals and Chamber. Not bad for Rock & More but not able to handle the full range of dynamics of some of the other cartridges and a little less detail, with some softening of the bass.
As a final note, if what I just wrote sounds less than ideal, please understand that the "magic" you have will come at the expense of some things. You will miss it once it is gone. But it isn't for all music. Enjoy!!! |
***As a final note, if what I just wrote sounds less than ideal, please understand that the "magic" you have will come at the expense of some things. You will miss it once it is gone. But it isn't for all music. Enjoy!!!***
Because our systems are different therefore our results will be different in fine ways,in fine graduations, one way or the other. So the degrees of weakness and perceived strengths you perceived in the combo might be how the rest of your system interacts with that combo for the better or the worse and therefore influence the final assessment of a cartridges forte.
I think its possible to pull and push a cartridges perceived signature ,within limits, by the myriad of contextual changes you can make by switching cables, mats, shims and components.
I'm exploring those limits through experimentation with the use of different mat materials, shim materials between the cart and arm.
I am having a couple of shims of different thicknesses of titanium made up to see how it will influence the sound. I currently have a tiny panzerholz shim installed and like the results. With each kind of shim i have to try several different mats because how one material interacted with the other might not react in the same way with the other. One change effects the others.
When i think of the influence the lenco is having on the combo, its difficult for me to gauge that without having heard a low noise table of the acustic or vpi type to compare it to. If i did it would make the task easier.
Second hand reports have indicated that both have their virtues. One has more detail and a lower noise floor while other produces more noise but is musical in its own way. One has a masters in math the other in art. The comparison was between a acustic raven 3 and a dobbins garrard i believe.
Sometimes i think maybe the wood plinth is a wonderful compliment for a aluminum based armtube. Adding a little warmth in the midband to a arm designed to be very resolving. But again in the end i have no other reference. I have heard a vpi mark 4, a scout and a rockport though.
At best i can hope that the difference between my lenco in wood plinth and a table like the acustic is similar to the difference between the TW/allaerts combo and the schroder sq/titan combo comparison.
I like to believe my wood lenco with panzerholz armboard adds some earthiness, warmth, body and texture to the final overall tone of the allaerts.breuer combo that can only come from wood based materials.
Mixing, the resonant signatures of metal, wood and plastic based materials to produce a final tone is a fine art.
For example if i want the allaerts to be more agressive for rock i can produce that quality by putting slate under my amps and influencing the final tone. If i want my sound to be a little more softer and romantic i bet i could acheive that by putting my amps on american walnut.
So i dont feel 'stuck' or feel that the allaerts magic is less than ideal for rock because i haven't drawn that conclusion yet with it. I can identify with your descriptions but i dont know if they transfer exactly to my experience and situation for the above named reason which i am trying to articulate.
The allaerts like every other cartridge is 'colored'. With my fast amps, dynamic phonostage, the allaerts powerful neodymium magnets, my speakers neodymium magnets, the speed of the breuer, the speed of silver wiring, i don't feel that my rock lacks dynamics, speed or that the music prettied up.
ACDC "you shook me all night long" sounds powerful, fast, toneful, clear, aggressive and extremely dynamic and at a very high level. In this regard people should not consider it a romantic cartridge because it is not soft like old definitions and understandings of that concept. This cart is a departure from that. There is a way in which it is "beautiful" but it should not be called romantic. As i'm sure you would agree.
What i'd like to say is that i really do feel it has inherent in its design the potential to do rock very well, using my own fender strat and biting hiwatt tube amp as my barometer. So i know what "grind" sounds like.
Anyways...as i continue to tweak and experiment i will try to steer the sound with this cart at the front, to a sound that is more and more blind to musical genre. In general as a all round performer in my opinion, in my system its already pretty close. |
