RedKiwi: Next time you are up to bat, please explain the image "thing" a bit further. I think that this is what I also mentioned at the end of my chat, but did not know how to go about explaining it properly. To further explain, specific placement of certain "cues" in some of the reference CD's that I use seem to be in a different location than where they were before and or I cannot specifically locate them anymore when listening in the near field. Maybe this is normal from one cable to another. I have only used a handfull of different speaker cables at home and have never spent this amount of time with most of them. |
I was getting the same peripatetic (!) image with the mapleshade but it seems to have settled down now. At one point, Max Roach's drum kit moved right across the stage and the trumpets, trombones and tuba of the Cleveland Orchestra sounded like they were going and coming from the bathroom. I forget which movement, tchk-boom. I don't think I have as many hours on mine as you guys so the OTA must take longer to burn in. The similarities between what you describe and what I'm hearing from the double-helix are startling. I guess geometry is what's happening.
|
Kitch: I am starting from scratch again with a new set of IC's (longer this time) that I just made up from the OTA kit. Things were sounding too pat and I needed a change. |
Try twisting them lightly Dekay. I find that untwisted, they sound a bit like the Magnan cables, albeit with much better PRAT than the Magnans. I think my cables are pretty much run in now, and I found that images were a bit "wafty" as a friend of mine puts it. Not quite "there". Till I tried a light twist, and images becaome more solid, giving me the same solidity as I get with my other cables, but with all the PRAT, clean transients, expanded soundstage and lack of grain still intact. |
Redkiwi: Thanks, I will give this a try in couple of weeks when the fresh pair of IC's break in. I am going to break them in with daily music as you did. I need to get the spare bedroom system setup again (with the SS amp and the CDR) for my godson to use when he visits us (along with a parental filter on the computer:-). |
Guys, I'll read this entire post tomorrow. Dekay, thanks for the tip I am always interested in new ideas! |
Caterham makes a suggestion, Redkiwi and Decay do all the homework and brulee tags along for the ride. Thanks to all three of you. I love being in this company.
I can't add much because these 3 have said it all so well.
I was loaned the Kimber top of the line speaker cable and IC which retails near $9000. I thought this stuff was very good. Damn well should be! I owned the Quattro Fil ICs and wondered what all the fuss was about. I bought the Coincident speakers a couple of years ago and thought I would try there wire. I did not think it was better than the Kimber 1030 but in some ways I preferred it. Then I heard the FIM speaker cable and thought I was Through looking for speaker cable. I then got hold of some Venture ICs that I was thinking of putting in my system but when I was told that retail was $3500 all of a sudden the Coincident was good enough. Then I saw Caterham talking about the OTA kit and then came along Redkiwi's thread. I asked Dekay if he would like to go in half on the OTA kit and he agreed. When I received my half I had to laugh. It looks like 10lb test fishing line. Redkiwi and Caterham must have lost it somewhere along the line. Sorry guys, I should know better.
The first thing I noticed was all my other ICs would cause congestion or what Redkiwi calls smear. This lack of smearing is what seperates this IC from all others I have heard. A week later I put the OTA speaker cable in after a 100 hours of break-in. I have been using the very fine FIM Gold and Coincident Total Reference speaker cable. I go back and forth between these two. I installed the OTA speaker cable if you can call this stuff a cable. Fishing line is more like it. What a synergy! Just because I was taken for a ride on the merry go round wire game don't mean you have to. Thanks Caterham, Redkiwi and Dekay. I have never been more happy with my system.
When I go to sell my other wires what should I say as to why I'm selling? Because I like this cheap looking, whimpy, unmanly, skinny fishing line better? How about the old down sizeing routine. No more wire games for me. I'm done. Don't need to listen to any more wire. I'm through. I wonder what this stuff sounds like in silver or gold or silver and gold or |
Bruce, it's good to have your endorsement of the product. I wired up a friends system (speaker wire only) with the extra cable that I had and he asked last week if he could run it for another month (which means that I won't be getting it back:-). When I get back to work, I will pick up another OTA kit to do the spare and bedroom systems and would have needed more RCA's and cable anyway (the runs are a bit long and I did not calculate them properly in the first place). I did a quick test on the spare room system and even on cheap (speakers) the OTA made a big improvement in the sound (much more enjoyable), so I will want to use it in both of the bedrooms. Neither of these systems are really Hi-fi but if I can make them sound better for $300 each then it's worth it to me. |
I was getting to the point where I was going to suggest trading speaker cables for a few weeks, double helix for OTA but now it sounds like you wouldn't want to part with it. There goes another $600. Anybody else want to split a set? |
47 Labs OTA POWER CABLES next? Shunyata owner's desperately trying to sell of their King Cobra's for a power cable a little thicker than the "fishing line" mentioned above? Redkiwi, Dekay, Brulee, Kitch29 describing in minute detail the very noticeable frequency aberrations introduced into their system when they pick up, twist, and drop their 47 Labs POWER CABLE? aberrations that would be disturbing to any listener but quickly forgotten after the cables returned to their normal "vivid" operation? What I am saying is not a dream. At the High End 2001 Trade Fair in Frankfurt last week, three wise, attentive and artistic engineers from 47 Labs proudly displayed their System, trying to leap gracefully over the very tall linguistic barrier between them and the German audiophiles asking about "those cables." When, all of a sudden, Slawney noticed in cold sweat what was connected to the 4 Power Dumpties (the high capacity transformers feeding all of their components)! Well, they were all connected in parallel to a single plastic AC plug (German wall outlet) with very thin fishing-line wire that looked very similar to the STRATOS wire 47 Labs were using on all of their components (maybe the Power Cord wire was a little thicker than 0.4mm OFC interconnect and speaker wire, but not by much). I know that the KIT says about the Stratos wire: "do not use them as power cords!" but it certainly seemed like these 47 Labs engineers were using something very similar to the OTA cable system for their power cables. And talk about vitality, lucidity, liveliness, instantaneous energy, speed! This system was the most jaw-dropping demonstration of the effects of bare-essentials component parts, short signal paths, and minimalist cabling I have ever experienced! It compelled me to adopt a new mode of understanding and experience. (So here comes the poetry.) Every event in the music communicated itself to me with supreme intelligibility--a system internally and externally illuminated and inflamed by the music itself! I even felt I could dispense with all of those means I require in order to give my system warmth and luminosity at home (those tubes)! The entire meaning of the 47 Labs demonstration could not be simpler: there is no reason for intentional complexity and a confusing multiplicity of circuits styles. The simplest, most direct means are the means by which the electronic poet attains a sense of wonder and rapt interest for the musical work, so as to intensify it into a feeling of amazement! The impression of idealized immediacy and purity I was experiencing could only be achieved by not resorting to artificial, overly-complex devices. Music returned to the power of feeling, and despite the fact that the small speakers they were using responded much less than typical speakers to low frequencies, now internal details, which until then had been banished from the stage by complex signal paths, compelled the listener to passionate participation, stretching out the emotion. And what WERE these speakers I was listening to? Three-way speakers with gigantic active sub-woofers! Just kidding. It was just a plain, single tiny 6" Jordan driver in a wood tombstone with no binding posts, the STRATOS going directly into the cabinet to the speaker itself. OTA Kit owner: Get the screwdrivers ready and take out those binding posts! Needless obstacle robbing you of the sound of pure music! ... The difficult last step to the MINIMALIST ZEN SYSTEM (anti-system) is being made right now at audiogon by a few wise disciples of the eminent masters from 47 Labs. |
I am ready to take the plunge! By reading all of the above is the price for the IC's $300? What is the length of cable that you receive? Can it be ordered with balanced or unbalanded connectors? Do I order direct from 47 labs US
distributor?
Thanks, Bob
|
Slawney,
Did you notice the dark grey isolation shelves that 47Lab used at Frankfurt? Guess who?*wink*
The loudspeaker was designed and built by Sead Lejlic of Konus Audio, the european 47Lab distributor and they use a transmission line enclosure.
Best,
Ken |
Come on guys. Were they crimped, soldered or other to the drivers crossovers/drivers? |
Hi Dave,
99% likelyhood that they were crimped if at all practical from what I know of the gentleman behind the loudspeaker.
Ken |
Thanks Ken: I will take a look at the crossover connections and see what I can do without modding anything for a trial run. I might be able to split (on one side) a piece of the empty OTA insulation and make a preasure clamp of sorts out of it. I'm sure that it should be fairly simple to get something temporary going. |
Caterham1700, I was wondering where those isolation shelves came from! Nice work. 47 labs had them all resting directly on the floor (no rack at all). Did you intend them to be used this way? Besides visually reinforcing the idea of simplicity, I could not understand the reason for a rackless system--especially since the 47 Labs room was on the third floor of the Hotel, and people were tramping in and out regularly. Either: they have a very casual attitude towards resonance and vibration; or: they place absolute trust in your shelves. They also had a very relaxed attitude about moving the STRATOS cables around. They continually moved one between the FLATFISH CD Player to the PITRACER CD Player without any noticeable signs of anxiety that this would jeapordize the sound of their display system. As for the geometric arrangement of the cables, they did not twist the two cables around each another, but ran them parallel and adjoining with sharp bends to ensure a rectilinear cable infrastructure. It was difficult to detect the type of movement-induced anomalies to the cables that have been referred to here since each move of the cable was continually accompanied by a change of component, and because the speaker system was limited low frequency, and also because they played recordings with limited bass and also because the listening session had to satisfy the demands of product exhibition for a large mass of people. Despite all that, I thoroughly enjoyed this system's lucidity. |
My OTA cables are now back on the woofers after burn-in, and settled down, and I take back any of my previous reservations. The sound is much better than garden hose on the woofers and OTA on the electrostatic. The garden hose sounds ponderous and noisy by comparison. Don't know why, but they took much longer to burn in than the others. |
Redkiwi: I logged 300+ hours on my set, but it was easy because I used a SS amp for 200+ hours of it. No way would I have been able to do that with the tube amp alone in such as short time. I am glad to hear that they have worked out for both applications on your setup as I had no way to judge the "way low" frequencies myself. Now all that I have to do is to find a way to keep "Eddie the Thug", our largest cat from clipping them off of the speaker terminals (he's the cat that "hugs" the speakers). Kitch gave me a few good ideas that I will check out. Are you going to try it out in the SS system at the getaway residence? Ken has done the true test though, IMO, his vinyl posts of late have me drooling for a turntable and a phono preamp again. I shopped a few thrift stores out in the Valley today (as in Valley Girl) and the LP assortment was mind boggling @ 99 cents a copy. |
Hey Brulee, we're waiting! |
Hi Kitch29, how you been?
What are we waiting for? I'm thicker than most. |
Sorry to be a skeptic, but why is $600 for a 50 foot (meter?) spool of 24 guage copper wire and a few terminators a good deal? What, if anything, is the difference between the OTA 24 guage OFC solid core copper wire and 24 guage copper wire purchased at an electrical supply house at substantially less? I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade . . . just wondering why I shouldn't just DIY for a lot less . . . |
Moto: Because it does not sound the same. I have already experimented with the OTA plastic RCA's and (26) gage solid core silver and copper "quality wire" from other sources and cannot achieve the sound of this cable. I came up with one set of IC's using a pseudo air dialectic design, that sounded good, but after a few weeks listening concluded that they (though better to me than some pro IC's that I have used in the past) are not nearly as good as the stock OTA. The kit contains 50 meters of cable, by the way. Consider me an audio fascist if you must, by I tend to judge items by the end result (how they sound), not by how that sound is achieved and this stuff is apparently not your average run of the mill 26 gage Teflon insulated cable. So, for $600 I have enough cable to install speaker wire in two systems, plus have three sets of IC's at my disposal. The fact that both the IC's and the speaker cable are by far the best sounding that I have ever used, makes it a frugal purchase I would say. I will still play around with different IC designs, because it is cheap fun and I figure that I can't burn down the house doing so. Anyway, give it a try and see what you come up with. Oh, and I am pretty sure that the copper wire is 26 gage, but am not positive. |
Dekay, to answer your previous question, my beach house is undergoing work at present and so the system is stored (too cold here right now to crave the beach anyway). Well-spotted, it would have been an ideal way to run in the OTA cable. When I set it up again it will probably soak up all the remainder of my OTA kit, so I am thinking about getting another one. |
Redkiwi: Cold sounds good to me right now. I can't stand A/C, but did price ceiling fans today. Other than liking the sound of the little MF X amp that I have, I am glad that I held on to it for this sort of thing. |
Hi Dekay
I have been playing with some Daruma Bearings recently and found that they did a wonderful job between CD player and the Neuance shelf (whereas no other hard device did previously, except perhaps the Super DH Cones). Using the Darumas the best sound occurred with the OTA untwisted.
Ken once suggested to me that the vibration control needs of CD transports differ depending on the construction of the transport and that this varied from one to another.
So I am now listening to what seems to me like the best of both worlds - the openness of the OTA untwisted, but improved solidity and clarity of images due to the Darumas (the waftiness has gone).
One of the imaging issues with the OTA cable is that the soundstage expands so much that some listeners may feel a need to sit further away from the speakers. With the OTA cables you are drawn far more into the soundstage itself, a bit more like listening to giant headphones. I happen to think it is just more natural that way. While images seem more precisely defined laterally with my other cables, it also seems like the images are flattened cardboard cut-outs compared with the presentation from the OTA cable. |
Red and other ultrathin cable users, these designs have to be the mechanically the best possible design for bearing
isolation devices(Aurios MIB, Rollerblocks, Daruma II) as
they offer almost no resistence to the free floating effect
of bearings on CDP. Now you must address the AC cord.
Daruma II are best value of bearing isoaltion group by far, MIB and Rollerblock take the sound improvements even further, for a price. I have been obsessed with bearing isolation for CDP and own one set of all three to experiment
with. I feel any of these is superior to any cone set I have heard under CDP
I am glad to see so many are trying this rather radical step of ultrathin minimalist cables, I will sit back till the dust settles and like Capt Kirk will watch you brave
audiophiles "boldly go where no audiophile has gone before" |
Megasam, I tried the home-made variety (three different designs) and concluded that the bearings worked well under CDP but not my tube power amps. Then I got the Darumas and was blown away - different league from the home-made ones and so am happy to re-visit the tube amps. So now I am thinking of getting one set of Aurios for CDP and another set of Darumas - the two sets of Darumas either going under tube monoblocks or under speakers (either way the weight is not extreme). Any ideas?
Sorry for temporarily hi-jacking this thread. |
I wonder what the wide variance in soundstaging charcteristics of most cables says about how they effect the increase/decrease in various parts of the frequency spectra. Given that we all continue to use the same electronics and speakers, what else could be going on but that?
In my own case, switching from silver-coated copper (DHLabs) to pure copper (Coincident) yielded a warmer sound with a slightly wider soundstage: clearly, more low freq's. Also a marked forward movement of the image: more mid-range or perhaps recessed treble? Double Helix raises, broadens and deepens the image while describing an arc which is somewhat forward between the speakers and curves back behind them towards the wall: I have no idea what is going on with the frequencies here! If the OTA is so forward as to mimic headphones, or "fill the room with sound" as Dekay has written, there must be some drastic frequency related effect on reflected sound.
I wonder why I've never read about using one of those zillion dollar spectrum analyzers to record these differences? Is anyone aware of it? Do cable manufacturers play with tonal shifts to achieve certain imaging/tonality? Or is it all serendipitous, "that sounds good, let's produce it?" |
I am not familiar with the Daruma II's. Is there a website with info on them? Unlimited roll is somewhat of a problem for me in CA, but now that I am using a traditional rack I can put up guard rails of a sort. |
Red, since I feel MIBs give the best sound I would use them under CDP. The darumas are not built to hold as much weight
as RBs or MIBs so if your speakers are not too heavy by all
means try them under speakers.
Dave AGON member DK405 sells daruma II, he is in CA and very reliable. You will have to find some way to nuetralize Whale AC cord weight use these in your system, Absolute cords are great for bearing isolation, very light. Final Labs makes them but have few dealers, DK405 (Dave Kerns) has website with photos
http://hometown.aol.com/dk405/myhomepage/index.html |
Thanks Sam: I like his initials, they are kind of catchy. |
G'men, would DarumaII support ~50lbs (weight of my cdp)? Also, how far does the movement go: I have little available space on the lightweight table the player is sitting on.
Thanks! |
One last point, Darumas II have no weight limit listed, and should work fine for 50lb unit. MIBs seem more robust and better suited for very heavy objects, I believe Aurios says they can support up to 1000lbs. Max sway is @1/2 inch in any direction but only occurs if you push/touch unit, swaying stops soon and unit appears stationary in actual use.
Now who else has an ultrathin cable experience? |
|
Hi James,
Thank you for the kind words. This is probably my first post on a public forum in more than a year.
Since I was hoping to meet you, I wish you'd raised my attention by making the reference to our earlier correspondence. It was chaos in there as you could see but regardless...
»At the High End 2001 Trade Fair in Frankfurt last week, three wise, attentive and artistic engineers from 47 Labs proudly displayed their System, trying to leap gracefully over the very tall linguistic barrier between them and the German audiophiles asking about "those cables."«
Well, there was only one engineer, really, Kimura san. Other members of the crew were Teramura san, Sead san, Buba san (funny I didn’t know Japanese address female with san as well) and Ichihara san (Kimura san's friend, not into music and audio but a nice guy nevertheless!). We were missing Yoshi san but he couldn't make it to Frankfurt this time. He was there with us spiritualy, so it's ok. :-))
Oh, yeah, it was a great fun, really! We had many people coming in for few times in disbelief that we actually use the VERY SAME wire from the mains outlet to the speaker drivers.
»When, all of a sudden, Slawney noticed in cold sweat what was connected to the 4 Power Dumpties (the high capacity transformers feeding all of their components)! Well, they were all connected in parallel to a single plastic AC plug (German wall outlet) with very thin fishing-line wire that looked very similar to the STRATOS wire 47 Labs were using on all of their components (maybe the Power Cord wire was a little thicker than 0.4mm OFC interconnect and speaker wire, but not by much).«
We were short with power supplies so we had to improvize with only four of them. PiTracer takes two power supplies.
Please, the wire you’ve seen that we were using as power wire IS 47Labs Storatos cable, not thinner nor thicker than 0.4mm OFC solid core copper we use for everything else.
Very nice touch was the fact that this power cable is arranged in a bouquet arrangement, reducing the number of power connectors, thus reducing quantity of metal as well. Not to mention the convinience of not having to check all the cable polarity once one of them is set right, no need for extension cords etc.
»I know that the KIT says about the Stratos wire: "do not use them as power cords!"«
And, I will repeat the warning. Reason for this is very pragmatic in many countries it is illegal to have electric appliances connected without ground and/or with such thin cable diameter and/or with the level of insulation that Storatos cable provides. So, we wouldn’t stimulate our customers to break the rules and/or safety regulations in any way. No, we’re not crazy to kill ourselves by using Storatos as power cable but certain precautions are necessary.
I was very precise in Frankfurt explaining to the visitors that we do think it is sonically beneficial to use this wire as power cable as well, however that using it presents a clear break of safety regulations that are in power in Germany.
» This system was the most jaw-dropping demonstration of the effects of bare-essentials component parts, short signal paths, and minimalist cabling I have ever experienced!«
Thank you very much. I take it as a personal compliment as I was the one who made a risky decission about the setup (bringing some unheard of speakers to a setup that aspires for a high acceptance level on a show is was a VERY risky thing). Btw, what was seen in Frankfurt is my personal setup (except for the turntable which was too complicated for me to carry and Willy Bauer was kind to land us one of his nice DPT decks). Just, it all sounds MUCh better in my demo room as it doesn't have such dissasterous acoustics.
»It compelled me to adopt a new mode of understanding and experience. (So here comes the poetry.) Every event in the music communicated itself to me with supreme intelligibility--a system internally and externally illuminated and inflamed by the music itself!«
Can we discuss the copyrigh of these words? I find this as one of the most inspired compliments I read on 47Labs.
»And what WERE these speakers I was listening to? Three-way speakers with gigantic active sub-woofers! Just kidding. It was just a plain, single tiny 6" Jordan driver in a wood tombstone with no binding posts, the STRATOS going directly into the cabinet to the speaker itself.«
Many people were very seriously asking us to disclose where we had subwofers hidden in the room....
I particularly enjoyed drilling the cabinets with a very thin drill, knowing it would just have to let in the cable and not to fit binding posts (I hate these shiny interference antennas!). Unfortunately, unless specifically requested, retail version will have some binding posts. We still haven’t figured out the ones small enough_ Probably will use something similar to what Gaincard has_ just plain screws.
Best,
Sead |
Hi,
Me again_
“Caterham1700, I was wondering where those isolation shelves came from! Nice work. 47 labs had them all resting directly on the floor (no rack at all).”
I must admit that we were planning to use the rack_ Since it was late on delivery, by the time it arrived, we had things layered on the floor, as you could see it. We liked it and decided to keep it that way.
There were the cones underneath the shelves but, since there is a double layer of carpet in Kempinski, even the speaker spikes couldn’t reach down to the floor, I wonder if these coned had any positive effect. Nevertheless, Neuance has done a good job. Yeah, Ken was very specific about the placement but I took some liberty of judgment since I am reasonably familiar with Neuance from before, so who’s Ken Lyon to tell me how to use them_ ROTFL :-)))))))))
“Did you intend them to be used this way?”
If he hasn’t answered yet_ NO. On a hard floor_ YES.
“ Either: they have a very casual attitude towards resonance and vibration; or: they place absolute trust in your shelves.”
If nothing, we don’t have any sort of neglect nor casual attitude toward resonance and vibration. Perhaps some ideas we have may sound unusual, even heretic but mechanical aspects are among the first aspects of design behind 47Labs.
We, however, have a casual attitude toward the possibility of a sound achievement on the shows. I had great laugh looking some brands booking their rooms weeks in advance, bringing sound engineers, decorators and architects, trying to, by remodeling the rooms entirely, alter the acoustics, and still ending up with a pathetic results_ yet expensive one, that is for sure!
Absolute trust? Until I stepped in Kempinski, I didn’t have trust in myself, not to say Neuance. But, when we started the setup, in like two hours it took us to relatively satisfied go to the town for some fun, the trust was back. : - )
I was never shy over the fact that I like Neuance. It is a well thought of product that has proved itself in both show and home applications. So, it was me pushing Ken to send me these and not, as it usually goes, the other way round.
“They also had a very relaxed attitude about moving the STRATOS cables around.”
Why bother? It ain’t glass to break. ;-)))
“They continually moved one between the FLATFISH CD Player to the PITRACER CD Player without any noticeable signs of anxiety that this would jeapordize the sound of their display system.”
As I said in my other post, we were short with power supplies, so we had to share one DA converter between PiTracer and Flatfish. So, we had no option but to move the cable around. Really, we were not worried about breaking some molecular structures within. I leave this fear to those thinking they can do a policeman work within a cable and have particular electrons directed through some particular strands and some other very particular electrons directed through the other, now different strands_
“ As for the geometric arrangement of the cables, they did not twist the two cables around each another, but ran them parallel and adjoining with sharp bends to ensure a rectilinear cable infrastructure.”
Cable behavior is dependant on the arrangement but, in a well balanced setups no twisting we find necessary. It’s a complex issue and certainly exceeds the scope of this discussion.
“It was difficult to detect the type of movement-induced anomalies to the cables that have been referred to here since each move of the cable was continually accompanied by a change of component, and because the speaker system was limited low frequency, and also because they played recordings with limited bass _.”
I didn’t notice any particular bass specific selection of the music we’ve played. The speaker goes to a healthy 37 Hz so, why bother? We had some very bass demanding material on play, especially as we were gladly playing other people’s material. Playing low registers of an organ in such room would be a disaster to anyone at the show, not just us but, I would disagree over the complexity (dullness perhaps, lol) of the bass in Tracy Chapman or Peter Gabriel (synthesized bass) recordings. Nor I would say playing double bass on Oscar Peterson’s Live at the Blue Note is a sign of a deliberate avoiding of a bass heavy material. Or, and that is also possible, our understanding of bass differs. Or, Miles Davis “Tutu”_As the final argument, I would stress out that we were playing on numerous occasions a very famous speaker crusher, Rickie Lee Jones “Under the Boardwalk”. I would love to take this particular recording to someone else at that show and see if the setup would collapse in a physical sense under the same SPL we had it running smoothly.
“_and also because the listening session had to satisfy the demands of product exhibition for a large mass of people.”
Indeed, this is very much correct.
“Despite all that, I thoroughly enjoyed this system's lucidity.”
Thank you very much.
Best,
Sead |
Dear Ken,
I will have to dissapoint you - I couldn't make the functional and long lasting crimping in this particular application so, yes, I've betrayed my personal preferences by soldering Storatos to the speaker drivers.
Best,
Sead
p.s. uh, how could you have time for e-mail when your're posting so much... |
After much soul-searching, study and prayer, I have decided to reveal the fact that I am an AUDIO MORON. I'm sure that both the members that take my opinions seriously will be shocked, but there it is.
All during this discussion of the OTA cables and what I intended to be a sidebar, or op-ed, if you will on the Mapleshade Double Helix I was breaking in, I mentioned the imaging problems I was having. Both Dekay and Redkiwi had noticed something similar with the OTA but their cables settled down and mine (the Mapleshade) didn't.
Two days ago I decided that perhaps one of the channels was out of phase so, and I know you'll find this hard to believe, I actually LOOKED AT THE SPEAKER POSTS to see. Sure enough, the left speaker had the leads reversed. (sound of hand hitting forehead rather loudly)
Oh, the shame, the ignominy! How could I return to the forum and waste more time? At first I continued posting as if nothing had happened. But my crime was a cancer eating away at me. I HAD TO CONFESS. But to do so would bring ridicule and dash any hopes of ever achieving that elusive goal of the set of steak knives.
Finally, I realized that someday, someone would find out the aweful truth which would spread out across the internet. I had to reveal my stupidity and hope that my betters would treat me with mercy.
You will, won't you? Please?
|
Whatever you do don't flog yourself with the cables, something to do with the dialectric. How is the sound now? |
Yes Kitch, how is the sound? Should we be trying the OTA out of phase and perhaps with a lemon twist? |
Hello everyone,
I just could not resist saying something here, although I am not sure I can rely say anything cleaver nor anything new. I feel like I have completely lost ground under my feet and do not know anything about electronics nor acoustics at all. After I have tried the 47L cable and amplifier in my system (and have immediately bought it) I just got totally lost. I am sorry that I am not able to use all those technical terms and descriptions that you use when describing this cable and its sound, but I do not feel comfortable enough that I know the meaning of all those words anymore.
All I know is that I am completely pulled into the art of music and a new dimension of absolute harmony that has suddenly appeared in my room. Nothing else matters. |
Hi sead, it would have been nice to talk to you at Frankfurt High End 2001, but I could not find you. You have your headquarters in Sarajevo (correct?), and there can be no doubt that to meet you among your equipment there, in the very place where your 47 Labs set-up was conceived and usually operates, would be an unforgettable experience. Probably not like meeting you at the Frankfurt trade fair--namely, to encounter an original, undeviating (despite the soldered speakers) audiophile amid this swirl of different sounds, "omnia sua secum portans," on the alert in the dull grey light of his room in the Kempinski. To be sure, the big audio show exhibit is not a format in which I might initially expect an understated, minimalist system--and one of the subtlest ones at the show--to reveal itself. But to my ears the situation appeared differently. Your efforts brought the ideas behind the 47 Labs equipment into sharp focus for me.
Your entire account of my informal "review" of the 47 Labs exhibit is very fair and kind, and comes to terms with some important points about the 47 Labs equipment and the exhibit.
1. Names and professions of those involved. I just asssumed all were engineers. I did not see the name tags, nor the women, BTW.
2. The use of the STRATOS wire as a power cable. I am glad I was correct here: chalk it up to my sharp eyes, and curiosity. The Frankfurt area has notoriously bad AC and I was curious how all of the exhibitors would handle that problem.
3. Resonance. Please, do not take my words "casual attitude towards resonance" as a critique, but a hidden gloss. In the 47 Labs interview for "enjoythemusic.com" Junji Kumura offers an "alternative medicine" perspective on resonance: "We are not trying to control resonances... Instead of trying to kill off resonances by damping, we are trying to find a way to live with them." Koji Teramura added: "We can't stop the vibrations no matter what" I simply thought that the exhibit was an embodiment of these ideas. It seems once 47 Labs takes a particular direction, they follow it through as far as it goes with a certain resoluteness. This commitment to extremes (what else is it but dialectic and life's breath and passion?) can be seen in your cabling very clearly. Was it also in the shelving of your components, I wondered?
3. Restricted Low Frequency speakers and music. I simply was not in the room when any demanding bass recordings were played. Big bass is not a big sonic priority for me anyhow. Nevertheless, I would have loved to have heard the Rickie Lee Jones "speaker crusher" you mentioned.
Scarcely any of the recordings I heard were ones that normally turn up in my listening room or ones that I am familiar with. But as I sat there listening to them in my armchair, hands busy scribbling in my notebook or clasped behind my neck (more often the latter), I was overtaken with admiration, It was fascinating to follow that vocal recording of "American Pie" in its undeviating clarity and closeness.
Since the breaking-in of cables is lengthy, the involvement of many of the above posters with the 47 Labs OTA Kit seems to move in phases. (In and out of phase, as it were, ;-)) I ventured to provide some poetry above for the close emotional involvement I felt for the music through the 47 Labs system as I think that everyone who becomes closely involved with 47 Labs equipment does not really go through phases, but a fundamental transformation of sonic and electronic priorities. They also get much closer to the pure affective experience of music, as I think Hazim indicates in his post. If any of my words are authentic, they owe this to the poetic and deliberate dialectical construction of the 47 Labs system you built for us in Frankfurt. Thanks.
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Hi James,
»Hi sead, it would have been nice to talk to you at Frankfurt High End 2001, but I could not find you.«
I was there 90% of the time, the remaining 10% of the time I was out for business talks. The fact that my wife wasn’t there either at the time of your visit indicates the probability of your visit either on Friday morning/early afternoon (oh, well, she was spending money in shops downtown Frankfurt) or on Sunday when she went out to take a look on what is going on at the show, outside of our room.
»You have your headquarters in Sarajevo (correct?)_«
This would be very much of an overstatement to say headquarters but, yes, we have our office and a demo facility in Sarajevo.
»_.and there can be no doubt that to meet you among your equipment there, in the very place where your 47 Labs set-up was conceived and usually operates, would be an unforgettable experience.«
There is only one way to find it out..You are welcome anytime. :-)
»Probably not like meeting you at the Frankfurt trade fair--namely, to encounter an original, undeviating (despite the soldered speakers) audiophile amid this swirl of different sounds, "omnia sua secum portans," on the alert in the dull grey light of his room in the Kempinski. To be sure, the big audio show exhibit is not a format in which I might initially expect an understated, minimalist system--and one of the subtlest ones at the show--to reveal itself.«
You are right. It was hectic, many people coming and going, I even can imagine insulting some people by not providing as much attention to them as either their name/background/whatever suggests would be required, or simply some nice people I wish I had more time to spend with.
Soldered speakers_ Uh, huh, maybe someone can help here for me it is impossible to apply sufficient amount of pressure over relatively large surface of speaker connector pin for a good crimp connection. Better not to crimp than to do it badly. Besides, if I had more time, as usually do, my Jordan drives would end up (as they already have, just after Frankfurt_) without these pins completely_
»But to my ears the situation appeared differently. Your efforts brought the ideas behind the 47 Labs equipment into sharp focus for me. »
Thank you. These are really very kind words and they are a bold confirmation of what we try to do to have a sense.
»2. The use of the STRATOS wire as a power cable. I am glad I was correct here: chalk it up to my sharp eyes, and curiosity. The Frankfurt area has notoriously bad AC and I was curious how all of the exhibitors would handle that problem.«
Half of the outets in our room were out of function_ Fortunately the power cord we had was long enough, otherwise we would be in trouble of spending quite some time making new powercords. Good thing is that I never go without an extra reel of Storatos. Even better thing was that Teramura san's geniality anticipated the problem well in advance :)
» Please, do not take my words "casual attitude towards resonance" as a critique, but a hidden gloss. In the 47 Labs interview for "enjoythemusic.com" Junji Kumura offers an "alternative medicine" perspective on resonance: "We are not trying to control resonances... Instead of trying to kill off resonances by damping, we are trying to find a way to live with them." Koji Teramura added: "We can't stop the vibrations no matter what" I simply thought that the exhibit was an embodiment of these ideas. It seems once 47 Labs takes a particular direction, they follow it through as far as it goes with a certain resoluteness. This commitment to extremes (what else is it but dialectic and life's breath and passion?) can be seen in your cabling very clearly. Was it also in the shelving of your components, I wondered?
No, I don’t take your words as criticism at all. It is very important to stress out our position regarding vibrations and it’s a great thing that you are making reference to this Enjoy The Music interview as I see it as a document of particular importance, regardless of somewhat nonchalant atmosphere that this interview is wrapped in. It is a VERY important document for understanding of philosophy behind 47Labs and their products.
We don’t kill vibrations for a very simple reason as they can’t be killed throughout the spectrum equally thus every try results in some sort of imballance. Besides, killing resonances results in_. a silence. We want music. We will probably have a chance to meet and we can talk about only this aspect for hours.
It is very important, in our opinion, not to alter the resonance spectrum and to drain it as much integral as possible.
Shelving is always a compromise. There are two basic approaches and we agree with one school of thoughts and dissagree very much with the other. The one we agree with tries not to isolate units from vibrations but to try to enable fast energy transfer from the units through shelves to the ground (as the practically infinite energy storage, at least in respect to amount of energy we talk about here). We think that it is not possible to kill vibration in it’s entirety so, the cure is worse than illness and we certainly can’t agree with this type of thinking.
Ken Lyon is my very dear friend and we’ve spent hours and hours of talks on this subject and I am very glad that his philosophy is almost identical to mine. His immense empirical experience on the subject of audio applied mechanics has resulted in me pushing him back into production of almost forgotten (due to the wrong marketing) and now very much improved Neuance shelf. I only hope he won’t hate me for that but Neuance is an excellent shelf nevertheless and I am very glad that more people will have the chance to have it as a result of the new production.
» Restricted Low Frequency speakers and music. I simply was not in the room when any demanding bass recordings were played.«
Yups. Although, we’re not chasing after admiration over low registers of our setup, it happens that some music has bass as well. :))
»Big bass is not a big sonic priority for me anyhow. Nevertheless, I would have loved to have heard the Rickie Lee Jones "speaker crusher" you mentioned.«
Neither is for me. I don’t really appreciate these common but brutal surgical measures of majority of audiophiles resulting in cutting of the music into freq. range pieces. I prefer to look at things in their totality, when it comes to the music.
Rickie’s recording is a vinyl EP, I understand it is a rarity these days. I play it because I like it, not because it’s lethal.
»Scarcely any of the recordings I heard were ones that normally turn up in my listening room or ones that I am familiar with. But as I sat there listening to them in my armchair, hands busy scribbling in my notebook or clasped behind my neck (more often the latter), I was overtaken with admiration, It was fascinating to follow that vocal recording of "American Pie" in its undeviating clarity and closeness.«
Now I should be smart enough to say something_.
»Since the breaking-in of cables is lengthy, the involvement of many of the above posters with the 47 Labs OTA Kit seems to move in phases. (In and out of phase, as it were, ;-))«
That is a perfectly normal thing. We learn through all our lives, why audio would be an exception?
A friend of mine, also a 47Labs afficionado, when asked about the break in time for Gaincard uses to say: »To my knowledge, it takes two years, I will let you know how it goes further on_«
Okie, to make things easier for this »out of phase« fella, I must say that I was very much confused and stressed over the fact that there are Power Humpties and Power Dumpties and I was obsessed not to mix them up, to the point that I was marking what’s what. It took me more than two months to realise that they have entirely different connectors and that it was impossible to mix them, even by accident_
»I ventured to provide some poetry above for the close emotional involvement I felt for the music through the 47 Labs system as I think that everyone who becomes closely involved with 47 Labs equipment does not really go through phases, but a fundamental transformation of sonic and electronic priorities.«
I used to have a warning on my web site (oh, when will I find a time to redo this pathetic web page of mine?) about serious effects that listening to 47Labs may have on how one looks on music, audio, even life. I was not kidding at all!
Now, I would say that, with those who are of the sensibility that may percieve what we do, first contact with 47 is somewhat shocking but the profound feelings and sensation grow over time, together with the understanding of the concept and the rediscovery of one’s music collection. It would be reasonable to assume that I, being inside of this, already take it as is, without this new sensation but the real fun lies over the fact that this path we’re on brings new surprises, new excitements continuously and it’s the fun and a great privillege for me to be a part of it. Spending time with Kimura san and Teramura san in Frankfurt were THE most exciting moments of my audio carrier.
»They also get much closer to the pure affective experience of music, as I think Hazim indicates in his post. If any of my words are authentic, they owe this to the poetic and deliberate dialectical construction of the 47 Labs system you built for us in Frankfurt. Thanks.«
It is my privillege. I am delighted that there were so many people who’ve managed to understand the message we’ve tried to send out.
Best,
Sead |
Anyone interesed in splitting a set? I would love to try them out after reading this post. |
Hi Hazem, excellent post. I know exactly what you are saying. Hard to describe in words. I'm totally lost too. Lost in the music like I have never heard before.
Thank you so much Caterham, Redkiwi, and Dekay for bringing the OTA to my attention. I am in your debt. |
Dekay was good enough to send me a couple of feet of the OTA to try as jumpers. I'd been thinking from this thread that it was about the same gauge as the Mapleshade. WRONG!
If you think of stranded 22 gauge wire and then consider ONE of the strands, that's the OTA! And those guys at the Frankfort show used it for power cord?
I also wanted to pass along to Dekay, Redkiwi, Brulee, Caterham, et.al., how the Mapleshade is configured. There's been some discussion of twisting, not twisting. An 8 foot pair is 16 feet of twisted pair with one wire cut in the middle. Those two cut ends are connected to the + and - posts with the other returning to the amp. In other words, it's a single wire cable with another wire wrapped around for, I guess, RF rejection.
It doesn't seem like it would be possible to tightly twist the OTA but I thought someone might like to try this configuration. |
Hi Kitch29,
"And those guys at the Frankfort show used it for power cord?"
Yes, we did, we do and we will. :-))
"It doesn't seem like it would be possible to tightly twist the OTA but I thought someone might like to try this configuration."
Neither it is possible nor would I recommend tight twisting OTA. We deal with RF where it makes the most sense in our opinion - by getting off the excessive metal. Tight twisting and whatever may work with some other cables (stranded ones in particular), not with this one. Some loose twisting may be advised in less than perfectly balanced setups, otherwise, "just let it flow".
Best,
Sead |
Does the 47 Labs, Gaincard amp really HAVE to be used with their own OTA wire or similarly thin wire? A 47 Labs dealer once told me that the need for small gauge cabling is over stated in reviews and such.
I tried a fully broken in (according to dealer) Gaincard S (50 watt version) with double power supplies for three days using the Coincident, Super Eclipse speakers. It sounded OK with no pre-amp in between it and my DAC. Other than that, I felt I would need much more time and perhaps different cables to really get a handle on its capabilities. It did have the deepest sound-stage I have heard from any solid state amp. Not the most important thing, but worth mentioning. |
Nice to see that the forums are back.
Has anyone tried this cable from a pickup arm to phono stage ? I'm tempted to internally rewire my Ittok, but I thought I would test the water first.
Thanks.
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Hi,
4708 OTA is too thick and too inflexible for internal tonearm rewire. Eh, I wish it could run from cart to phono preamp... :-)
My suggestion would be either to get a single run of a good tonearm wire and have it run all the way to phono preamp from the cart or to use the tonearm wire through armtube and to have OTA take the rest of the way from the arm to the preamp. If so, particularly if using LP12, make sure to have the wires together with some plastic string as it will make the P-clip dressing much more comfortable experience.
Best,
Sead |
