Abex:
A small area of contact has always sounded better to me (other OTA users have had the same results).
Wrapping the wire around the post may make a stronger connection, but it does not sound as good (especially in the LF's).
I place the bare wire through the binding post hole and then tighten down within reason. The cats do clip a cable off of the speakers now and then (they can't get to the amps) and because of this I have to check the speaker cables before powering up (my tube amps should always have a speaker connected to them during power up).
It's a slight hassle to go through (really more of a habit after all this time) for better sound. Try it both ways and see if it makes a difference in your setup. |
I did and thoguht I was getting more sound back by wrapping.If I have to clip the wires again I will go back to the one strand.I did take notice that Yoshi was using a spade for the new speaker's so I was wondering about that.
BTW,I checked the site of the speaker's from NC and a great price.I have NEAR's and know the designer who developed the first commercial Metal drivers to be mass produced.He is a genius if you asked me.What I find appealing is that Yoshi is using Metal driver's also with OTA.That tell me that the synergy between the wire and speakers are a good match.
I am waiting patiently for my new speakers.Biting fingernails you might say.They shall be wired with cryo treated OTA probably and be the most advanced set on the planet,with an outboard active crossover.Some manufactures I have spoken to still use them as references and that also says alot.To say I'm jazzed is an understatement.
Happy Camper! |
This might be a stupid question,but here ya go!
I have Eichmann connectors on 2 runs of OTA and is there any heatshrink that you have used that works effectively with OTA over Eichmanns.Would like to safeguard against accidently pulling the wire and losing the weld.Is that possible?
Have not heatshrunk anything in 20 years.
Thx,ABEX |
Just an update:
*Cryo'd OTA to use in my NEAR M50's Tweeters\Midrange
*Bass Drivers Un-Cryo'd
*Tested IC's using the cryo treatment
Seems there is more presence using the Cryo treatment with Copper WIre.I would not venture to use it with any Plated or Silver Cables.
Speakers sound great with the OTA.They are not fully broken in ,but I know it was well worth using it to do the internal wiring.
The comment of Presence!
I noticed it most using Classical Guitar Recordings.Tried to find the best word to describe the essect and Presence is it.
Also Used A run of Belden Digital.Cryo'd and Uncryo'd to do the test.
Have fun! |
Abex, how did you arrange cryogenic treatment for your OTA cables? Where did you send them? What exactly did the treatment consists of (in exact times and temperatures)? How much did it cost?
Rewiring speaker cabinet interiors with OTA is well worth it. Also worthwhile is rewiring umbilicals between the RCA female plug and the circuit board (since sometimes these can be a substantial length, and use inappropriate wire).
Your comment on the sound of cryogenically treated OTA indicates enhanced conductivity around 5 kHz.
But isn't OTA already cryogenically frozen during the manufacturing process in the first place? I think that this was implied in an earlier post. In any case, that would explain the strange sticky feeling of the polyethylene covering everyone reports, since viscous particles travel to the surface during cryogenic freezing.
|
Slawney:
I had thought the OTA insulation to be Teflon (when soldering the OTA the insulation has a very high melting point, like that of Teflon). |
I had the OTA cryo treated through Kimber. The only thing I know is that they did take the gauge into consideration when doing it. Ray Kimber I thought would know what he was doing.
If the OTA had been Cryo treated initially it would not have made a diff.. From what I have read from others having it go through a Cryo treatment a second time enhances the results. This has been written by those who have Cryo'd Outlets.
I had thought that the reason that OTA was different or had different sonic characteristics than other cables was because of the Die it is run through. I guess no one but Yoshi and the Wire Manf. that ran it would be able to tell you what is actually going on for cetain.
I know a Metallurgist that might be willing to work on a test using inexpensive cables in order to see what exactly is going on with Cryo and weather it is feasible to bring up the sonic quality. It should be intresting.
If there is enhanced conductivity that explains the effect. I know that there is longer lasting Decay of Cymbals and High freq. instruments. This was testing and impressions .Both my new speakers and the other speaker I had previously use the same Tweeters. Might it be the activity of the XO's also? There is more breakin to do ,but I am very impressed by what is happening thus far.Wish I had more cable to use with my SS speakers internal wiring.
Next I will change the values of the Caps along with the Manfs. of the Caps\Resistors in the Tweeter XO's to bring the performance up another notch.
Anything you can tell me would be appreciated or if I can add anything you want to know ask!
======================================
The following was posted somewhere else at A-Gon
======================================
47Labs OTA Cable Kit:
It might not be for everyone, but it turned out to be a jewel of a deal for myself.
I was within days of buying the first of several cables for my system and I was lucky enough to had gone to A-Gon to see what was going on in used cable. Someone had just put up the OTA kit for around half the new price because they did not like what it did in their system and I immediately mailed him. He had taken it off right after or before he read my mail to increase the price, but he was so disenchanted with it he decided to just sell it to me.
Since buying the cable I have made all the IC's, made a run to my main speakers and had my newly designed speakers wired with it. All for a fraction of what it might have cost if I were to buy separate cables for my system. The only place I do not have it is between my Transport and DAC.
The thing that really made it worth it was the fact that Yoshi's new speakers (Konus Audio Essence) or the replica's of his speaker made from Carolina's(?) look like the NEAR speaker drivers that use to be used in my cabinets making synergy less of an issue.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/47lab/shigaraki3.html
Since getting my new speakers online wired with the OTA I have noticed some great traits of which I might not have had if not for wiring the internals with it. For one it has made decay of instraments better than I have ever had with any of the other speakers I have had in my listening room. I have had PSB's,Magnepans and other NEARs.The new drivers are true of the presentation of different instruments also.The nost apparent of these are Cymbals.Love the long decay and true to life emphasis which is given now.Another trait is the disappearing of the speakers. I have never had speakers that completely not show themselves making the music. At no time do I hear anything which tells me a sound is coming from a driver. The Maggies never did this and they were the most transparent speakers I ever owned up to now. Well then again the NEAR M15's I think betterd them,but it was kinda a coin toss.
Anyhow the OTA Cable has been a godsend for my purposes and I hope others might find suitable cables for their setup.
Note:The Tweeters have Cryo'd OTA running to them and the Amp-Pre IC is also Cryo's with Eichmann Plugs used.
I will still try out another Digital Cable soon with my Belden as a reference to beat.
|
Dekay: good to hear from you in so long. The identity of the OTA insulation can be a confusing issue. Sakura Systems listed it as "teflon" in an old information sheet for the "open technology" cable kit. But recently another 47 Labs distributor confirmed to me that it was polyethylene.
As you probably know, polyethylene is the most popular plastic in the world--used for grocery bags, shampoo bottles, children's toys, even bullet proof vests. As to what type of polyethylene OTA insulation is, I do not know whether it is branched-low-density (LDPE) or linear (HDPE) or some other variety. Nor do I know if OTA insulation is made by free radical vinyl polymerization, Zieger-Natta polymerization, or metallocene catalysis polymerization. From the physical features of the OTA jacket, my vote goes for branched-low density with some type of dye, which means that the OTA insulation jacket has some irregularities that will affect the sound, irregularities that are only partiallly overcome by break-in and cryogenization. I do not think that the blue-green dye is meant to enhance the performance of the cable, but that it is used to give the cable an attractive color.
The fact that I can get the OTA insulation to melt already at 280 degrees C shows that it is not teflon. Teflon has a melting point of 327 degrees C. Also, OTA insulation does not undergo "cold flow" like teflon.
Abex, I do not doubt that there can be benefits from a second cryogenic treatment. My question was directed more at the specifics of the actual procedure and how you arranged it, since it is unlikely that any of us can do this at home.
Upgrading speaker crossover components is a rewarding modification route: the chokes on the woofer and the capacitors on the tweeter are the most important to upgrade in a two-way crossover. Another good tweak is to leave the crossover outside of the cabinet on a stand of its own midway between the amp and the speaker cabinet. This reduces microphonics that will make a speaker sound more distorted and unnatural. |
Slawney
I will share the following msg, I recieved just today from Charles Beresford of Cryogenics Intl.. I have been trying to findout as much as possible about the effects of the cryo process might have on audio components especially cables.What really disturbs or perplexes me is the fact that no long range studies have been made of the ill effects this process might have or even the benefits of it except for testimonials.
Robert Crump is one that I trust who has one bad experience with what it did with a set of expensive speaker cables.After his experience I was concerned with what effects might taken place with the OTA.
====================================
My Questions:
Hello:
I read your post at AA and was wondering about a few things.
1.Do you know if there have been any detailed studies of what has not been done successfully in cryo for Audio and stuff that has a high failure rate?Trying to avoid the pitfalls of others.
2.Have there been treated and untrested test done for Measurements as well as listening test?
3.Do you take the Gauge of the wires into consideration and adjust for it when doing the process?
4.Have there been test done on Plated and Silver Cables?
5.What about doing the process twice on Cables,does that further enhance the effect or performance?
I know you have been in the Biz since the 80's and is there any performance test that have been done is what I am trying to find out.
Robert Crump had a set of expensive Cables that I think were plated that got ruined by having the process done.
I had some 47Labs Cables ,which are copper, croy'd by Ray Kimber's facility and they came back undamaged and they might have been cryo'd initially in Japan.They are approx.24ga. and I do not know if that is taken into consideration before being cryo'd.Should this be taken into consideration?
I am trying to also see if taking a inexpensive cable and having it cryo'd can bring it's performance up to ultra expensive cables. Has this been done in your experience?
I am at the moment corresponding with a knowledgable metallurgist discussing testing to find cable that can advanced using this technique.
What can you tell me, any help is appreciated!I know your time is valuable and I am not looking for long elaborate answers.Short answers would be helpful and I will take it from there.
We will consider sending the Cable to you when we narrow down our choices in the future seeing that your prices are reasonable and you have exstensive experience using the process.
Thanks!
---
His Reply
Thank you for your message. With regards to audio applications, there are not really any technical studies. It seems that no matter what is shown scientifically, in the audio world, listening is the only thing that matters. I have some research studies regarding materials, i.e. polymers, steels, etc. You could then apply those results to the same type materials in audio applications.
There is really no determining factor to let you know what may have a problem during processing. In general, our process does not cause failures in most any part. We process entire boards, cables, tubes, etc. I will list some guidelines below.
1. plastic that is under pressure or stress ( like a clamped down hard plastic case) could crack. This is because there is no tolerance for movement during the process.
2. Very old, dried out plastic may crack due to having no elasticity.
It is not the type of polymer, it is the condition that it is in, that may cause a crack. We generally do not see any problems with new cables or materials. Again, whole boards, capacitors, cables, plug strips, tubes, cds, etc. all processed every week with great results.
The gauge of the wire has nothing to due with our computerized process. The process is all about removing the BTUs or heat energy out of the products being treated.
We have not experienced any problems with plated and/or pure conductors of any type. We process solid silver wire and cables all the time. Silversmith Audio process all of their cables with very good results.
Some people say that two times in the process is great. I do not have any data to support this. I will process your items any way or as many times as you desire. The customer gets the process desired.
You should not have any fear of treating plated cables with us. We process plated cables, outlets, plugs, connectors all the time with only improvement.
I really have no idea what has been treated before I receive it and what hasn't. Processing your items more than once will not harm them. Since we do not charge a great deal for our process, if you are not sure, just have it processed.
Some people do say that you can take a less expensive cable, have it treated and it will make dramatic improvements. Our process will make good cables sound very transparent.
I have attached some information to this message. Please call or email me if you have any questions.
Best Regards,
--------------------
The info into what you have provided concerning you eval of the OTA is intresting. I will have some questions after I am avle to think about what you have written further,thanks! |
Slawney just to add:
I went through Bolder Cables who sent it (OTA) to Ray Kimber facility in Utah when having my ART DAC modified in order to see what effects the treatment might have.
I used a set of untreated sets of OTA terminated with Eichmann plugs . I tried a few combo’s to see what the effects of cryo might have on playback. I also used sets of Belden Digital to test. These were listening test and I had no measurements done as I do not have any test equiptment available to me at the moment.
The best I can describe what I have found is in the word Presence. It finally came to me when comparing the Belden’s that on Classical guitar the plucks were more distinct using the cryo treated cables.
I still think that whatever or whoever you choose to do the treatment it is wise not to treat anything you do not want to take the risk of damaging. Weather it be Cables, Capacitors ,Transformers or a hairbrush.
I do not think I will have the Caps, Inductors or Resistors Cryo’d that will be used in the upgraded crossover parts for risk of damage. Kharma is said to use cryo’d components upon request for it series of speakers which is said to Lower the noise floor,but as always there is no info provided on how they established that claim. |
Abex, thanks, your questions to Charles Beresford were excellent. Thanks for sharing his response. |
Slawney
Where did you hear that the OTA was Cryo'd?
Have you measured what the Impedance is Per\Meter of the OTA?
And do you know what the exact Gauge of the OTA is as I do not have a wire Gauge?
TIA |
Hi folks. Interesting discussion. I am thinking about buying a few meters of OTA cable. I use cheapo PVC CAT5 solid core cable now (two single cables, like the OTA cable). Does anyone know how big the difference is !? (in other words does it justify the $50-70 I have to spend on 8m of the OTA). Redkiwi, could you maybe explain the differences in more detail to me !?
Thanks in advance,
Fedde |
Abex, here are answers.
>Where did you hear that the OTA was Cryo'd?
Right here, on this voluminously long thread, the following was posted on 12.05.01:
»Is it cold-treated, annelaed in some way, a mono-crystal filament, or an alloy of some kind?«
>Of course it is cold treated and of course it is mono->crystal, I could not imagine a good cable done other way.
Nevertheless, there is still some uncertainty about whether or not Storatos is cryo'ed..
>Have you measured what the Impedance is Per\Meter of the OTA?
My ohmmeter is currently not stable enough in the range required for such a measurement :-)
>And do you know what the exact Gauge of the OTA is as I do not have a wire Gauge?
Is its 0.4mm, then its 26 AWG. |
Well I should have used a conversion table thanks!
This is a very long thread and I have tried to go through it a few times.You must have a photographic memory to remember it all!
Thx! |
Someone that has seen the OTA stated to me in a mail that it is not a Solid Core ,but Foil. In a sense it could be as a close wire to it is Mapleshades Foil IC's from what others have stated here.
Any thoughts? |
None of my calbes are anything like this. But 47 labs does have a cablw
Here is the response I got from Allen Wright!
===========================================
Those are different than mine- I saw it in the 47 Labs room at the recent Frankfurt Hi-End
Show - theirs uses copper foil but mine use very thin silver foils in a
"sandwich" construction.
They are available as kits from my on line store. Called the "SuperClear"
Regards, Allen (VSEI) |
Abex:
This is 47's new line of cables. As far as I know they are not sold as a kit, but are factory terminated.
Where as a single OTA "kit" can often equip two simple stereo systems with IC's and speaker cable, these are quite a bit more expensive (the new line). |
Yes,I noticed that! Something like $800 for a 8ft. pair for their speaker cables if I remember correctly.
I did see that Yoshi was using OTA in the Konus speakers from 6moons photo's which are selling for $3300 and Carolina has a similar set of wires.
What is the new wire's diameters I wonder. I'll look at the previous posts. I wonder also weather they are using Cryo.
The kit saved me alot and enhanced the performance of my speakers using it as internal wiring. I am working on Silver wire now (Plated and Pure) for Bi-Wiring and will use the rest of the OTA for the Internal wiring of my 2-ways after I have it Cryo'd. When I am done I shall have all my speakers used for my Stereo\HT systen wired with OTA .Speakers will be matched with the same Caps\Inductors\Resistors and Wires. It shall be a 7.1 HT speaker system. The last project shall be a matching sub which I will build myself.
Later! |
A cheaper alternative to OTA for a lesser price. I am breaking the wire in right now.
You can write me and I will discuss what I found. |
In researching Pigment used in Cables I ran accross this. Is this stating that the fact of what pigment you use will make a difference in the way the wire will pass a signal?
"In thin coating applications, such as insulation coatings on copper telecommunication wire, the combined requirements of low coating thickness, high pigment loadings and high extrusion line speeds, demand excellence in pigment dispersibility for successful processing. The table below lists the main products for this application showing both good dispersability and good coloring value."
http://cibasc.com/VIEW.ASP?ID=3541 |
Abex: the table you proffer seems to be addressing cost efficiency in the manufacturing of pigmented cable and nothing to do with sound. Did I miss something again?
I'm no engineer so forgive the stupid questions - but what is 'pigment dispersibility?' (I can imagine what it is, but i don't think 'dispersibility' is even a word, is it?...maybe.) leaving UV light out of the equation, unless the pigment is leaching INTO (as opposed to around) the wire why would color matter? if it is leaching into the copper atoms, where is the evidence of that and if it exists where is the evidence that it alters the conductance of the wire? or that one color leaching into copper is better or worse than the next? and after all that, why not just use an inert coating?
Call me stupid but I don't understand.
just thought i'd ask.
- actually, don't call me 'stupid;' I'm a crier. |
Kub I really did not get what they were trying to address in the table or lit. I was just trying to findout what those who know the technicals had to say about it. Light and pigment color would have no bearing on how a cable reacts I would think.
In a post above someone had alluded to the fact that the Blue Pigment used in the OTA wire had no bearing as to how the cable reacts. I would have to concur with that.
"Dispersibility"! Well you'd have to ask a rhodes scholar about that one. I did not do well in english. Bill Clinton might be able to help,but at a cost. I do not even see a dictionary hanging around.
Found it!Old and yellowing from lack of use,but your right.Webster only shows Disperse-Dipersal and Dispertion as words.Wonder how much that guy got paid for writing that up!Hope I do not ask him for help putting up my website.
Stupidity,I would look up the meaning and it's opposite which is astute ,intelligent,keen. I did not even pick up on the Stupidity of the writer using "Disperse" in such an odd manner. Should be fired!
|
"Fired?" Whoa! Don't sweat it, Abex; it's not even thoughtworthy. (You won't find that one in the dictionary either. It's my own.)
have fun |
Nice!Now I have to find a way of having fun! Always more pressure!
Wish I could go surfing--The real kind!
Later |
Abex:
A couple of years ago I heard about a gent in the UK experimenting with cable insulation color and sound. |
Well he must have went MAD! If you made OTA a clear color,then put a protective sleeve over it there would be no difference in the sound.But light might slow down energy so there might be plausible reason for such an experiment.
A good physics question!
Thx! |
Abex:
I was under the impression (from discussion of the topic with a cable manufacturer) that it had to do with dialectic properties (perhaps the effecting the portion of the signal running on the outside if the wire).
I also feel that it would wrong to assume that the cable with the highest/most pure conductivity is always the best for our application.
Yes, it's just one more thing to think about and there are already enough factors to drive one MAD, IMO.
I have pretty much given up on DIY cables (just use the ones already made that sound nice, plus the OTA cable) as I have come to dislike the lengthy process of auditioning/comparing cables in general.
Maybe it's less of a hassle for you now that you have a cable cooker?
I only accepted your audition offer as there are not many people running OTA in their systems and this is the cable that you are trying to match/beat. |
Well I have a few I am working with.Silver is intresting and the thing which I am finding most difficult is the factor of termination. Silver is primarily the wire I am working with at the moment not OTA.I did run across the Pigment Color page and thought it might interest those here.
The thing which I find Intriguing about OTA is the Insulation used. It is the best affordable copper cable I know of.
OTA is not the only cable to best. I am looking to find affordable cables that are superior to the run of the mill junk you find in audio, There seems to be a silver craze at the moment.
The price for a silver IC is outlandish and I would market a Silver IC for $70 if I could find a suitable RCA. The best so far are the Cardas SLVR and Homegrowns. Eichmanns are to expensive and are Copper.
======================
"I was under the impression (from discussion of the topic with a cable manufacturer) that it had to do with dialectic properties (perhaps the effecting the portion of the signal running on the outside if the wire)."
Funny thing about that is I thought I was the only one that thought that! I had just written to someone with very much the same sentiment along with the reason why cables sound different.
One of the things I had read recently was about why Van Den Hul got into the cable biz. When he was younger he was working for someone putting wire coils into phono cartridges and noticed that 2 wires that were the same in appearance and specs sounded different. He went to a authority, higher than himself, and posed the question as to why this is. He could not get a definitive answer which lead him on the journey which made him start his own company.
One of my theories is that the reason that cables sound different is the way electrons bounce off each other moving through a conductor and that the field around the conductor or movement of electrons interplays with the insulator. Cryo treatment seems to validate my belief that the composition being more uniform might allow for better interaction of forces after treatment.(Kind of tired right now, but I hope you get my drift).
If you look at tables for Insulator values you will find Teflon being the best,but I do not think it is in terms of what it does to sound or signal transfer. Air is the best ,but that is not what I am getting at. No one can tell you what is best in terms of allowing the signal through to be musical.
As for the cable cooker it only allows me cut the time on breakin that I really cannot do with music.Takes to long and is not thorough .If I want to test designs and geometries it is counter productive to what I am trying to accomplish.
My goal is to come up with designs that can compete with what many consider to be SOTA, but that are cost effective to all of us.
At the moment it is not the cost of the wires that is a drawback,but the cost of the connectors which more than anything add coloration to the sound.To find a minmalist design for a cost effective price has posed a challange.The best thus far has been Homegrowns Rhodium over Silver at like $3.50ea..For Silver it's the Cardas SLVR's .I am still testing ,but it is fair to say they are better for Silver wire purposes. Eichmanns are good for the minimalist pursuit,but they are pretty costly at approx.$40 for a set of 4.
Anyways I got into this because I was tired of hearing and seeing people at the mercy of the higher priced company made IC's\Speaker cables and felt I could make or come up with original designs that could compete and be cost effective. I have 3 designs at the moment that no one else has come up with that are in the way of the purist pursuit that I feel might very well be competitive to wires costing many times more. They are in the way of an Air Dielectric that look and sound good, but they are still being tested and retested to be certain.
It takes 50hrs on the burner then 10hrs of play before any serious listening can be accomplished. I feel my system is adequate for this type of testing to see weather there is something worthy of consideration or not. I would certainly not try to sell something which I felt did not sound good or to put another way which I felt I would not like to have as far as quality of sound.
Silver has it's advantages over OTA, but only in the HF falloff. Some test I have done was lacking in the midrange or soundstaging. Like I said it's all preliminary and there is alot more testing I shall be doing, but then again some designs are very promising.
I like OTA and Silver seems to be more of my focus now because of what I see to be outlandish prices out there for it. I would like to come up with a good Silver IC for under $60. The $70 mark is where I am at right now, but I am not completely satisfied with it either. Either way I do not think that I will be able to get to the $60 mark because of the price of RCA’s which I have a design for on paper. If I still had access to a CNC and a machine shop I would easily beable to beat the $60 mark by producing my own RCA’s that would also be non-metallic. A lot of what I know about manufacturing and eingineering could prove valuable in my pursuit. Some I have not used in years.
Rambled enough!Later |
Any photo of a OTA RCA, different from those oublished on the web??
Thanks in advance,
Stefano |
I got some in my virtual system. |
You can purchase 1/4 Techflex to go over the OTA in order to change the appearance if that is what you wish to do.I use Black.
This link might work.There are other manufactures with different styles and types.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=082-316
Good Luck |
Hi Guys,
I understand there's a 0.65mm version of the OTA has anyone used this version ? And is it to be used mainly for the bass only. |
Sorry to necro this old thread but am wondering if people are still using/experimenting with the OTAs.
Was re-reading some threads and some have noted that the OTA sounds a bit lifeless compared to other higher priced cables. I would perhaps agree at least that was the case when I got to try out a set of Ridge Street Audio Poiema speaker cables. RSA definitely has more air and warmth.
Previously, I experimented with various gauge cables. And, I found that thicker cable on the return run relative to the signal run will result in a warmer fuller sound. So, I used two 4mm runs on the return on all my OTA ICs. These turned out very well sound wise.
However, they break easy as keeping two runs soldered onto an Eichmann Bullet Plug's return pin is hardly manageable. I've since stopped using OTA wires because I got tired of constantly re-stripping and soldering the cable whenever the solder broke off but am still using them as SC and PC.
On a side note:
Now, I want to double up the speaker cables but think the .65mm runs would work better than two runs of .4mm for ergonomic reasons. I haven't seen the .65mm cables on Sakura System's site in awhile though. |
