Excellent news: Thanks "B". |
the best OTA digital cable that I have come up with in the past three months.
members.aol.com/trstrap/ota.jpg (this is a photo of it, just copy and paste)
I take no credit for this configuration (other than the lazy eight half knots:-) as my direction on this cable came from Richard @ Vantage Audio, but on the other hand if it does not meet your greatest expectations upon wasting many precious feet (and inches) of the OTA, then I take full responsibility as this is my adaptation of the basic principals which were graciously supplied to me. The hot lead is 60" in length and the cold lead is 30". Better yet might be lengths of 80" and 40", but I barely had enough cable left to make up phono cables (a work in progress), so I made them 60/30 which is the bare minimum for this design, I am told. The cable is tunable (per my experience) by changing the number and size of the half knots (along with the spacing of them) on the longer lead. The "loops" that I am using are approx. 2" to 3" in diameter, but these are based on my personal taste and my setup (experimentation is advised when using this cable in other systems as nothing is ever easy). The higher the quantity of "half knots" (loops) and the smaller the diameter the tighter the imaging. The drawback is that with this tighter imaging (which is not unlike that of traditional cable), the more closed in the sound becomes (this closed in sound is also similar to that of traditional cable and defeats the "openness" that is the main purpose of using the OTA cable in my system), thus the "wild" look of the cable. I had almost given up on using the OTA as a digital cable until I tried this design (thank you Richard) as I was never able to surpass the sound of the standard Mapleshade Double Helix digital cable that I used before. I have already tried adapting this design to something that would be generally acceptable in appearance, the longer lead being "tightly" coiled around the shorter lead with a tidy Teflon surround enclosing the two (even tried the same with cotton surrounds/insulation between the cables), but the variations all basically sucked as far as the sound went (I am still using the "ugly duckling" cable as pictured). I started off with leads of equal length and then tried staggering the various leads (one being longer and one being shorter). These cables were OK, but no cigar as they did not best the Mapleshade digital cable. Anyway, this is my best effort, so far, as digital cables go and I am very content with the sound.
As far as "contact area" goes, I have only discussed this in the past with Red, Brulee and Kitch. My take is that the smaller the contact area, the better the sound. Wrapping the OTA around a binding post on the amplifier and/or the speaker has a tendency to muck up the sound from the mid bass down, IMO. Making a small contact area by just threading the wire through the hole in a binding post and then tightening down within reason leaves the sound more open in my setup and enhances bass and mid bass bloom. I have also used the OTA as hookup wire (in a TDS Passive Audiophile and once again in this application "less was more" as the best sound came from almost solderless connections (just enough solder to get the job done, as one would use when soldering to a circuit board).
As far as oxidation goes I have been using Kontak (a generous gift from Brulee) with excellent results on everything in my system, including the OTA. However due to the nature of the OTA contacts I find it necessary to redress the ends of the IC's and speaker cables after they have been taken on and off more than 3-4 times as the wire has a tendency to flatten out. I have also broken 3 of the white center posts on the plastic RCA's to date (mainly due to taking them on and off constantly while experimenting with the cable in IC form) and hopefully this will not be a problem when things settle down. I did purchase another set of the RCA's, but since I have broken so many, I have been forced to make a few hard connections on my setup (which bypass the RCA's altogether). I cannot really hear a difference between the hard connection and the OTA RCA connection, though I had thought that I would. This is the only negative aspect that I find of the product and for those who just install the cable (IC's) only to remove them for periodic cleaning (once or twice a year) I do not see this as being a big deal, though additional RCA's may still come in handy if there is a mishap.
On a whole, I love this stuff and with the guidance of "Palmnell", who posted above, (yes, we are a close knit group:-) I hope to knock off a pair of phono IC's next. |
Slawney:
I had thought the OTA insulation to be Teflon (when soldering the OTA the insulation has a very high melting point, like that of Teflon). |
Kitch: I will be very interested in your take on the OTA Vs the Mapleshade. Did you order the speaker cable, IC's or just the jumpers? I will post on the OTA in another week and I use the Mapleshade Double Helix digital IC between the Bel Canto DAC (now a 1.1 version which I have reservations with Vs the 1.0 version, but will give it another week) and the Cal player. I just shipped OTA IC's to Albert Porter to audition and when I receive them back, I will try the OTA out as a digital IC (in place of the Mapleshade) and will then have only OTA in the system. I will post about the 1.1 version of the Bel Canto DAC at that time, as well, in the 1.1 thread that I originated for those that are interested in the BC. |
The kit will be arriving later this week and I will let you know how stupid you are when I install it and give it a run (sorry you really need to know this). Brulee will also be using the wire and should be able to give you an idea of how it actually sounds. |
I would like to make a few notes on IC assembly for those that may be ordering the kit (or that have already received it). When assembling the Black portion of the RCA, the cable insulation needs to be beveled at the edges in order for it to fit into the channel (along with the bare copper wire). When you have the kit in hand you will see what I mean by this. I shaved the end of the insulation from approx. 1/16" out to the end, at an angle with a razor knife. Before figuring this out I botched two sets of IC's twice and then made up one pair successfully (which means that I now have 20 connections involving the Black RCA portion under my belt, though have wasted quite a bit of the cable in the process:-(. The White portion of the IC does not require this treatment to the insulation and is a snap. When initially stripping the wire for both the Black and White section of the RCA's 1 3/4" to 2" is adequate to work with, so take this length into consideration as a portion of the bare wire will double back instead of extending the length of the cable (again this will be clear with the kit in hand).
Sound wise (so far) I find RedKiwi's comments about lack of "smearing" interesting as I suspect that he is describing something that I did not previously have the proper "words" to describe. I have referred to this in the past as a sound that somehow accompanies but that is not really a part of the music as it kind of rests behind (though is attached) to each note (I like "smearing" a lot better:-). What I do notice with the speaker cable at this point is that the background is very silent and that the notes seem to manifest in the air and not from the speakers (with well recorded CD's). The "smearing effect" if that is what I am describing, always hinders this illusion to some extent and the speakers are more evident in the mix. I have rejected a number of CD sources and IC's in the past because they did this to the sound and am now discovering that my previous Kimber Kable was also adding (though slightly) to this affect. Otherwise, I do not have a clue as to how the cable will sound as it has been all over the map in my setup as well and will post again in a couple of weeks. |
Kitch: I am glad to hear that they are working well in your system. Would you say that they have an unusual sound (like "way" more musical than other cables that you have used in the past)? Yes, I am fishing as I will write about the OTA kit at the end of this week. Funny, I don't really know who Patricia Barber is, but have been listening to "Modern Cool" which I picked up at a thrift last week, quite a bit, along with some Tomita (my Pink Floyd of the 70's). |
RedKiwi: Both of the IC's that I was using before are solid core (pretty sure that the Mapleshade is, though I can barely see the wire itself, and I know that the Homegrown Audio's are). Are you using analog IC's made from the 47 Labs kit as well or the speaker cable only at this point? I am going to try using one of the 47 Labs IC's as a digital cable once my DAC arrives back from Bel Canto and currently have 47 Labs IC's installed with the speaker cable (thought that I would let it all run in together to get it over with). |
RedKiwi: I shoved the cable so hard the first eight attempts that I still do not have any feeling in the tips of my thumb and index finger and this was a couple of days ago. I started out with the speaker cable and then later added the IC's. My problem is that I am coming from solid core silver IC's which can be very addictive and much prefered the sound of the HG's to the newly installed 47 Labs IC. This happens every time that I switch to a copper cable and it usually takes a few days to wear off. I do like the the sound of copper IC's, but the change is always rather drastic. I have the speaker cable running through the front wall (the one behind the speakers:-) through four separate holes spaced 10" apart (finally got the electronics moved to the hallway closet) and do not have the energy to try twisted pairs at this point as it would require too much work. I will leave the cables as four isolated runs for the next three weeks, but am interested in what you come up with using twisted pairs as I can always try this out after the cables are run in. |
Redkiwi: I logged 300+ hours on my set, but it was easy because I used a SS amp for 200+ hours of it. No way would I have been able to do that with the tube amp alone in such as short time. I am glad to hear that they have worked out for both applications on your setup as I had no way to judge the "way low" frequencies myself. Now all that I have to do is to find a way to keep "Eddie the Thug", our largest cat from clipping them off of the speaker terminals (he's the cat that "hugs" the speakers). Kitch gave me a few good ideas that I will check out. Are you going to try it out in the SS system at the getaway residence? Ken has done the true test though, IMO, his vinyl posts of late have me drooling for a turntable and a phono preamp again. I shopped a few thrift stores out in the Valley today (as in Valley Girl) and the LP assortment was mind boggling @ 99 cents a copy. |
I have approx. 250 hours on both the IC's and the speaker cable at this point and have been running it in 7 hour stretches with an hour or so of rest between them. The sound has been fairly stable past 200 hours and I wonder if the deviation that I am hearing is just my regular electrical fluctuations being somehow more noticeable due to the clarity of the cable. I am going to give it another week (150 hours) to see if this is the case before posting. This is by far the best that the system has ever sounded though and I have already switched out IC's a couple of times for a reality check. |
Asa: Please include your detailed observations on the Audio Note cable and we can, at least, compare the cables in this thread for a start. If it is of a similar design (the OTA is .4 mm, or 26 gage solid core copper wire with a thick Teflon, I think, insulation and retails for $600.00US with 50 meters of cable and enough RCA's to make up 3 sets of analog IC's) then the information will make a nice addition, I feel anyway as it will be more like comparing apples to apples. I also wonder how the OTA compares to the Mapleshade Double Golden Helix speaker cable which I was considering before going with the OTA kit (which offered better value for me as I can equip two systems with both speaker cable and IC's from the kit). |
I just received a flyer from Maplshade and they now have improved versions of their speaker cable (drat). |
Kitch, good, you just saved me a bundle (even on a 30 day basis). Are they the new "improved" version of the Mapleshade speaker cables (plus $70) or the standard version? The OTA IC's have definately replaced my Homegrown Super Silver IC's in the living room system at this point (I did some A/B's this past weekend). I am also testing the OTA with both solid state and tube amplification (Musical Fidelity X-A1, run at moderate volumes while in Class A and an Audion Silver Night 300B based amp). This is all of course system and taste dependant as the Homegrown IC's do wonders as far as dynamics and pushing the sound stage forward and I will most likely still be using them in one of the bedroom systems as they sound great at lower volumes (better in this context than the OTA, I would say). |
Kitch: The soft plastic RCA's are much easier to take off with your teeth, if you are so inclined. But their main purpose is to guide the wire itself to make the signal contact instead of the RCA itself. Also, thank you for coming forward with the "WOW" factor, that I have read about from a few other users of the MS cables (of course no one but them believes you:-). It's kind of funny in that we have had 12 gage or even larger drilled into our heads for many years and yet these tiny wires have "major" full bass response as well as the rest of the frequencies in spades, yet don't get hot to the touch when pumping out the tunes. LOL. When I was a teenager I gave a couple stranded out in the boondocks (in Iowa) a car battery jump with the speaker wire that I had installed in a 67 Volkswagon (it was the only thing on hand). It was the cheapest speaker wire that I could find (when installing the stereo) and was probably 22 gage (maybe even 24 gage). It not only jumped the battery, but went back into the bug to serve again as speaker wire, after trimming the ends where the insulation had melted. Wall to wall and a room full of sound is the only way that I can describe the OTA (all of the IC's as well as the OTA speaker cable are of a micro wire design as the digital IC is the Mapleshade Double Helix). |
I have been using the OTA cable kit in the system listed in Virtual Systems under "SET Hide Away System" for one month now (both as Analog IC's and as speaker cable), the playing time exceeds 500 hours. Two things that changed, off and on, in the system over this period of time are: #1. The Bel Canto DAC was upgraded to 1.1 status (and then broken in for 300 hours) and #2. I periodically switched from a Musical Fidelity X-A1 solid state amp to a 300B SET amp for comparison purposes. I started out with the MF (SS) amp, first with the IC's and later added the speaker cable. Switching from a pair of Homegrown Audio Super Silver IC's the sound of the OTA IC was not quite as dynamic (no big surprise) but was equally "upfront" in that the sound came from the plane of and the space in front of the speakers (instead of from behind the speakers and then a bit forward from there as it did with a pair of HT Truthlink IC's that I had used before in this system). I ran the OTA IC's for approx. 70 hours and at this point the bass and clarity was pretty much stable (they went all over the place, sonically, during this time period, so don't drive yourself nuts if you are running/breaking a pair in). Other than still missing the added dynamics of the previous solid core silver IC's (it had only been 3 days and I still had a strong "silver" memory) these were the best IC's that I have ever tried in my setup, by a long shot. Cymbals, bells, brass and drums sounded very real (like the metal they were made of), vocals strings and piano were also spot on and the separation/distinction between various sounds was eire. I don't mean imaging by this, just that the sound was very clear, but not on the bright or thin side. They did however still sound a bit hazy overall, for short periods of time, off and on, with frequencies (narrow bands) in the bass and mid bass either dropping out or peaking (hard for me say which as at the sides of a peak are two drop outs and I have trouble telling the difference with new equipment/cable). I was becoming impatient at this point (having broken in various PC's during the months of April and May) and decided to install the OTA speaker cable and let everything run in together. I ran the combo up to a total time of approx. 200 hours (still using the SS amp) and keep in mind that the IC's now had double the playing time, plus, of the speaker cable. The speaker cable during this 125 hour period went through the same ups and downs that the IC's did, in the beginning (I wish that I had a cable burner). The speaker cable replaced was Kimber 4VS (a good budget cable) and the OTA speaker cable stomped it on the SS amp. The difference/improvemet was unbelievable and is hard to put into words as it like the difference between a bull in a pen and a bull released from a pen. It was as if the music that was now flowing had been held back (in the pen) by the previous cable. It was smoother (much more liquid sounding) yet again with amazing detail (as when you are not paying attention to the music and an instrument startles you, like a percussive that you think is someone on the patio or a knock at the door, well this was happening quite often). I had previously said that the OTA cable is a bit forward sounding (either in this thread and/or in private emails) and do not feel now that this is a good description. What is does do, on good/decent source material is free the music from the speakers in that the sound/music comes from the air (when you close your eyes) and not from the speakers themselves. This has always been a priority in my setup (which is why I am very pleased with the last PC's that I upgraded to as they also add to this effect) and this is what I like most about the OTA cable. After a total of 300 hours on the SS amp, the only changes that I was noticing (with the kit) were most likely the changes in the quality of my power supply throughout the day as late night listening was always consistent. From here I switched to the 300B SET amp, first starting with the previous IC's and speaker cable for a day and then switching to the OTA. This time, though I switched both the IC's and speaker cable at the same time, there was not as pronounced a difference between the old and the new (OTA) though is was still night and day. Maybe this was due to me being used to the sound of the OTA, maybe it really did make more of an improvement on the SS amp (due to a mismatch with the old cable?), I really don't know and was too lazy to look into it and just wanted to get more hours on the OTA cable. With the OTA cable (the IC's not the speaker cable) there is a definite settling in that takes place everytime I remove and reinstall it (even though it is fully broken in). It can take one of two days (figure 15 hours of play) to sound its best again. I have had the cats shear a few of the speaker cables and did not notice any difference when I re-stripped the end (half an inch) and reconnected them. I have not experienced the dryness, or lack of bloom, in the bass as has RedKiwi (even with the SS amp), though we have entirely different setups and also I do not use full range speakers and therefore cannot hear the bottom register as he does. So in a nutshell the OTA Cable Kit is fast, open, smooth and detailed (detailed but not thin or bright sounding). As far as the "visuals" go the sound stage is wide, deep and tall, but in the imaging department (unless it's my imagination) it seems that things have a tendency to move around a bit. I have never really concerned myself with imaging before and only notice this when listening in the near field on some recordings. Maybe it's on the recording (the engineer switched or combined tracks), but I never noticed this before with the old cable which may have been too blurred to tell, who knows? Anyway, if someone else notices this hopefully they will be able to explain what I am hearing, as I can't, and it does not detract from the musical experience as far as I am concerned. Although it is only 26 gage wire, it is full range and not rolled off at either end. Though I was coming from a budget cable (so is the OTA, when you think about it) it was on the level of replacing/upgrading a major component in my setup(s). I will be using the cable in our second budget system as well (ordinarily powered by the X-A1 amp) and when I receive an extra pair of IC's back, that are on loan, they will be used on some analog to digital recordings (tape to CD) that I will be doing later this summer. Sorry for not going into more detail (although, boy, is this a long one), but I find the sound of these cables hard to describe as their is no glare, no lack of bass or detail, etc., and they sound so different than what I am used to (as if they are not even there). Hope Audiogon doesn't charge me for this one. That is all. |
PS: I forgot to mention (in my rambling) that I will also be trying out half a set of the analog IC's as a digital cable (maybe in a month or two) as the Maplshade digital cable that I currently use is neither of a 75ohm or coaxial design and I figure that it's worth a shot. Maybe someone else with the "kit" will want to give this a try. |
RedKiwi: Next time you are up to bat, please explain the image "thing" a bit further. I think that this is what I also mentioned at the end of my chat, but did not know how to go about explaining it properly. To further explain, specific placement of certain "cues" in some of the reference CD's that I use seem to be in a different location than where they were before and or I cannot specifically locate them anymore when listening in the near field. Maybe this is normal from one cable to another. I have only used a handfull of different speaker cables at home and have never spent this amount of time with most of them. |
Kitch: I am starting from scratch again with a new set of IC's (longer this time) that I just made up from the OTA kit. Things were sounding too pat and I needed a change. |
Redkiwi: Thanks, I will give this a try in couple of weeks when the fresh pair of IC's break in. I am going to break them in with daily music as you did. I need to get the spare bedroom system setup again (with the SS amp and the CDR) for my godson to use when he visits us (along with a parental filter on the computer:-). |
Thanks Sam: I like his initials, they are kind of catchy. |
Bruce, it's good to have your endorsement of the product. I wired up a friends system (speaker wire only) with the extra cable that I had and he asked last week if he could run it for another month (which means that I won't be getting it back:-). When I get back to work, I will pick up another OTA kit to do the spare and bedroom systems and would have needed more RCA's and cable anyway (the runs are a bit long and I did not calculate them properly in the first place). I did a quick test on the spare room system and even on cheap (speakers) the OTA made a big improvement in the sound (much more enjoyable), so I will want to use it in both of the bedrooms. Neither of these systems are really Hi-fi but if I can make them sound better for $300 each then it's worth it to me. |
Come on guys. Were they crimped, soldered or other to the drivers crossovers/drivers? |
Thanks Ken: I will take a look at the crossover connections and see what I can do without modding anything for a trial run. I might be able to split (on one side) a piece of the empty OTA insulation and make a preasure clamp of sorts out of it. I'm sure that it should be fairly simple to get something temporary going. |
Moto: Because it does not sound the same. I have already experimented with the OTA plastic RCA's and (26) gage solid core silver and copper "quality wire" from other sources and cannot achieve the sound of this cable. I came up with one set of IC's using a pseudo air dialectic design, that sounded good, but after a few weeks listening concluded that they (though better to me than some pro IC's that I have used in the past) are not nearly as good as the stock OTA. The kit contains 50 meters of cable, by the way. Consider me an audio fascist if you must, by I tend to judge items by the end result (how they sound), not by how that sound is achieved and this stuff is apparently not your average run of the mill 26 gage Teflon insulated cable. So, for $600 I have enough cable to install speaker wire in two systems, plus have three sets of IC's at my disposal. The fact that both the IC's and the speaker cable are by far the best sounding that I have ever used, makes it a frugal purchase I would say. I will still play around with different IC designs, because it is cheap fun and I figure that I can't burn down the house doing so. Anyway, give it a try and see what you come up with. Oh, and I am pretty sure that the copper wire is 26 gage, but am not positive. |
Redkiwi: Cold sounds good to me right now. I can't stand A/C, but did price ceiling fans today. Other than liking the sound of the little MF X amp that I have, I am glad that I held on to it for this sort of thing. |
I am not familiar with the Daruma II's. Is there a website with info on them? Unlimited roll is somewhat of a problem for me in CA, but now that I am using a traditional rack I can put up guard rails of a sort. |
Yes Kitch, how is the sound? Should we be trying the OTA out of phase and perhaps with a lemon twist? |
Gray: The only way to be "convinced" is to actually try and/or listen to this product (the design of which goes against the grain of what most people assume is needed for quality sound). Because of these assumptions many feel that it is not worth $600 for a roll of 26 gage solid core copper/Teflon cable and a few plastic RCA's. Having tried other 26 gage Teflon coated cable I do not assume, but know that they are not the same (the last being XLO's product). What exactly are you looking for - a new slew of product owner's of which you will believe their observations? LOL. |
Gray: You are welcome. Perhaps you can take take the magnet wire further than I have @ this point as I never got around to trying a reverse wrap (tacky side out) of Teflon plumbers tape on it. You could also follow up with a second wrap with the tacky side in. I will not have the bedroom system (where I like to play around with things like this) up and running for another month myself and will probably start by experimenting with a vintage tube amp that I just picked up instead of fooling with cables. In any regard, I look forward to your findings. What I did find about this wire is that it sounded better to me a single runs (instead of twisted pairs). |
I just discovered that the "Teflon" tape that I tried on the XLO wire is not Teflon (per the local hardware store). I went there to get another roll and discovered this. The Teflon tape that I just purchased has no adhesive (which is better for our needs) and it was very inexpensive ($1.50 a roll). I will just fasten it @ the ends with a small piece of adhesive tape when I try wrapping the wire again. |
Raguirre: You are doing better than I did in the beginning (I wasted over 35 feet of the OTA) and to date have broken 5 of the white center posts. As far as the center post goes, you can try adding another loop or two around the white post. This will give you more of a chance of making a good solid contact. When you install the center (white) post just press it all of the way into the female RCA and then pull out ever so slightly. This has always worked for me and I have used the IC's with at least six different pieces of equipment so far. The black (outside) part of the RCA should not have any trouble making contact, but if you feel that it is too loose then do a double loop (through the small hole on the side) before going back through the longer channel/hole. I have noticed that the female RCA's on different gear do vary a bit as far as the fit goes and these two slight deviations regarding the assembly of the IC's should do the trick. I do wish that 47 Labs would redesign the center post to make is stronger as it is structurally very weak where the cross hole goes through the shaft (or @ the least offer free replacements of the center post) but other than this I have no complaints about this product and am looking forward to your further comments once you remedy the contact problems you are experiencing. |
Slawney: Yes, I need to figure out a good "stress" relief system as well (for making hard connections on IC's). They have a tendancy to break off @ the solder connections. I will check the local hardware store for something made out of Teflon. You might try contacting Mark directly in regard to the phono IC's that he attached to his Linn TT (he may have further info/comments available by now). I also have a sample of an Amp-Cool product which silver coats copper and I was thinking of applying this to the OTA before soldering it with silver bearing solder. Don't know what effect this will have, but I am curious as to whether it will improve the connection. This is a powdered silver product which forms a chemical bond with the copper when applied cold. |
Thanks for the info Ivos. Never knew they existed until Sead mentioned them. I will have to think of something to use to try this out (I'm in the USA). |
Hi Sead:
The ones that break the most are the ones connected to hot tube gear and/or a SS amp which runs predominantly in class "A" (also quite "hot" @ the RCA's). I assume that it is the heat that weakens them (as these female RCA's are not on the "tight" side) and/or thermal cycling as I do not leave the tube amps on all of the time. One of the center shafts, however, was broken due to my error when not maintaining a 90% angle when removing it from a Bel Canto DAC (which has very tight fitting female RCA's on it). Once again, all of the posts failed at the "cross hole" section which is without a doubt a structural weakness in the design. I realize that tooling expenses are quite high, but would suggest eliminating the "cross hole" entirely and instead using an "outer ring", which would slip over the shaft, for this locking purpose, if retooling ever comes up. This should not effect the sound (it may even improve it as it would eliminate the haphazard "loop" which most likely occurs when threading the wire through the "cross hole") and it would make this part a great deal stronger (both by eliminating the "cross hole" and by adding the "ring" surround to the section which is subjected to the greatest amount of stress when installing/uninstalling the RCA's.
As far as Matching RCA's with the OTA counterpart, I have never seen the "strip" example of these type of connectors but recently became aware that the OTA RCA's are not compatible with vintage type RCA's (the ones currently on a Pilot 240 amp that I am using). The easy solution to this is to replace the female RCA's on the vintage piece (as they are garbage anyway:-).
On another note, someone once mentioned to me that OTA "banana" plugs (for attaching the cable to speakers) would be an interesting addition to the kit. This may have been RedKiwi's suggestion, but I cannot remember for sure, and am unable to locate the old email.
I will add that I have probably installed/uninstalled the connectors a great deal more than what I would consider the "norm" due to experimenting with different cable configurations over the past 8 months. I also never asked for replacements outright, though did make it clear as to why additional ones were required (but @ that point I had only broken 1 or two of them as I recall).
I do not wish to detract from what I consider to be a truly high end but affordable (to many of us) product, just to detail my experiences with it in which the positive's far outweigh the negatives (that is if sound is one's main priority).
Good to see you back in the forums again. |
Hi Sead:
Now that you brought it up, I may experiment with separate entrance and return holes/channels on the outer (neutral) portion of the RCA connectors. These will, of course be DIY "jobs", but the "loop", again haphazard in this application, (as it may or may not occur depending on the position of the wire) is something that does not "jive" with the reduced metal mass philosophy of the overall design, as this would add up to approx. 33% more metal mass to the connector (granted that a "loop" does occur), plus the uncertainty of the effect of the "loop" itself. I have noticed a substantial difference in the sound by how the cable is attached to the speakers/amp in that looping the wire around a binding post does some strange things to the LF response (a smaller contact area, sans loop, is my much preferred method). I now wonder if eliminating the possibility of a loop occurring (in any instance) in the IC's would also have beneficial results?
I do not quite understand your comments on the "outer ring" suggestion as this is by far the greatest stress point on the middle post of the RCA's (both when installing and uninstalling the RCA). The outer ring (plus...sans the second hole in the post) would significantly reinforce this specific area and would only be compromised by the tightness of the fit (on the post) and the single strand of 26 gage "bare" wire which would be forced under and held by the ring. These compromises are in comparison to engineering the concepts into a "one piece" unit. Maybe what I am envisioning is not made very clear by my wording as this is a difficult area for me?
I realize that the people who do not have these materials @ hand do not have a clue as to what we are talking about, so will end this discussion here.
Please feel free to email me directly with further thoughts/info and if we come up with anything that makes sense it can then be added to the thread. Now that you have sparked my interest, I will certainly play around with this as time and energy permits.
Unfortunately I just sold my SET amp, which was my favorite "window into the music" and super for testing gear (now using a push/pull amp in pinch). But fortunately I today purchased a vintage stereo SET console (complete with light weight paper drivers) that I hope to "part out" and have up and running in the next couple of months, granted that I can figure it out with the help of a few "web friends". It was $20 if I can get it out of the shop by tomorrow morning, so it is time to hit the hay right now.
As always, I look forward to further dialog.
Best regards,
David |
Slawney: Mark (Palmnell) discovered that a slight "twist" was required when using the OTA as phono IC's (in order to reduce hum/interference). We discussed this outside of the forums and I recall that the twist/cross was every 1" to 1.5" (which is easy enough to try if you are using the OTA RCA's @ the phono preamp connection). I am still waiting on a few parts (male IEC and cartridge leads) before I tear into my TT, but will be replacing the IC's with the OTA once all of the parts are here. Mark had noted that this slight "cross" did not close in the sound as I have noted that doing this to analog IC's does. Let us know if this works out. |
BWhite: What are the longest cable runs that you are using (to other than ambient speakers)? I should have tried longer runs (in the beginning before cutting up the cable) to see how they sounded, but did not think of it @ the time. Also, are you using the OTA as IC's throughout the system? It can also be used to replace digital and phono IC's. You have already made the offer (and lots of people want to get a "piece" of this kit), but I would suggest hanging on the the extras for use down the line. If a run were to break in the middle it would need to be replaced, plus I have broken five of the white center posts on the RCA's to date. |
Outlier: Ask Brulee. LOL. He replaced FIM with the OTA. |
Thanks "B" and Slawney for the updates. If I can swing another kit after "things" settle on the homefront I will consider hooking up satelite speakers in our bedroom (which would be much less expensive than using a separate system), thus the "long run" query. Slawney, glad to hear that Richard's "loops" and 1:2 ratio worked out in your setup as well. Richard is definately "out there" in a good way. LOL. |
Styx: "Furor" hardly describes this product's following, with but a handful of online users/owners sharing notes. What was it that you actually meant to say? Please spit it out in a pattern that I can understand. |
Slawney: Is there a website for MEC? I have not heard of them. I tried ferrite magnets a year or so ago with various cables (not the OTA) and found them to supress the HF's (less noise, but also less music). These were not high ticket magnets, but the ones used on wall warts, digital cameras and the like. I had an accident with the TT today which yanked the OTA IC's off of it and will be figuring out a better stress relief system tomorrow. I will also shorten the IC's, as much as possible, when doing the repair, but cannot swing the minute lengths that you are using. More urgency to the music would be nice with the budget Thorens/Grado combo that I am using. Hopefully shorter lengths will help to supply this. I can also cut the phono preamp to preamp leads down to 6" or so (might as well do it all @ one time). I have not tried IC's shorter than 24" before and this should be interesting. |
Hi Slawney:
The OTA phono cables worked fine before, I just messed up a connection and/or an internal tonearm cable. The tonearm cable should really be replaced anyway (it is pushing 25+ years old). We are talking a $100 TT here (Thorens TD165) so no big whoop. A local phile can also bail me out if I get in over my head, but I just want to learn to do the basics myself (sort of a new hobby whithin a hobby:-). I no longer use digtial IC's though may play with some ferrites on the speaker cable (have to dig them up first). |
Slawney: Just had a thought. Think that I will try a tiny "screw" barrier strip to trouble shoot the TT wiring. Might just leave it in (if I figure out the problem) as it will make it easier to try out different DIY IC configurations. |
BWhite: Your system looks pretty good to me. Lamm and Syrah (yum yum:-). Albert tried a pair of my OTA IC's, quite some time ago, on a Sony 9000 player and felt that they lacked weight in comparison to his standard IC's. I did not have enough spares to allow him to try the OTA on the analog setup as he requires two of everything. This is system dependent as I have not experienced any thinning of the sound in the various setups that I have used so far, but would not be surprised if this were to eventually happen. How is it working in the HT system (with longer runs)? Still no problems after having had a chance to listen to it for a while? I am still interested in running some satellite speakers in the bedroom (once I get back to work) as this would be more cost effective than maintaining a separate system, plus we really don't want any gear in there (a small TV is our limit). I figure the runs would have to be approx. 40' long unless I decide to channel out the floor, then 25' would do. |
Outlier: Still using the OTA throughout the system except for SME IC's on a recently added TT. I am out of OTA cable, otherwise I would change them out as I did on the previous deck.
I may try some DIY 30 gauge solid core silver cables instead, an interesting design by a Japanese phile (on the TT).
Have not talked to Mark in a long time (hope he responds as he always had the energy to experiement a great deal more than most of us).
Sound wise I really don't think about changing cable anymore (just placing a decent, though traditional, cable in the signal path sounds way strange after running OTA for the past year, or so). |
Austin: Where did you obtain the thicker OTA cable? Also, any idea what gauge it is (the regular is approx. 26 gauge)? I had thought about trying it as hookup wire on my Bottlehead gear. |
Hi Larry/Abex: The only thing to research as far as your system goes, IMO, is the passive preamp to amp run. I have not tried the OTA with a passive.
The OTA cable is not bright/thin sounding and should be fine with metal tweeters.
I have no experience with the Bullet RCA's, however can say that the 47 Labs RCA's are definately a part of their clear sound. If purchasing a complete kit, I would just use the supplied RCA's and then experiement with the Bullet's as desired. |
Abex:
Have you considered changing the RCA's on your transport/CD player?
I have done this on my vintage amps as the stock female RCA's do not work @ all with the 47 Labs RCA's. The female RCA's on my old Musical Fidelity amp did not work well either come to think of it.
I however used inexpensive female RCA's which look to be the same as the ones @ Triode Electronics (they come with supplied with Teflon washers). |
Abex:
If the RCA's are directly mounted to a board it can be difficult changing them out, but if they are connected with wire's there is not much to mess up.
Anyway, if you ever get around to it the only other thing to check is if the RCA's use the chassis as a ground (otherwise they will have a non conductive barrier between them and the chassis/case, usually plastic washers on both sides -w- modern gear). |
