Listening first is a winner. When I bought our home (because my wife liked it), I tested out the lounge room and it was just terrible acoustically.
The master bedroom 24x15 was immensely better, the echo was considerably less of an issue. We had a smaller storage room that I was going to use, but when my wife suggested we use the bedroom as a dual purpose room, the idea appealed to me.
I’d seen other Agoners system pages, and yeah, many of us do go for a bit of a look at what others are up to in their rooms. I’d seen quite a few who’d put up reasonably cost effective absorption in between the speakers on the front wall.
I’d bought a $200 thick woolen rug from a garage sale and built a big frame for $200 for a fairly inexpensive science experiment.
Surprisingly this worked pretty well, the first reflections off the back wall (sent across to the front wall again) and the back energies from the ports were dealt with in a manner that cleaned up the higher frequencies pretty well. I did hear a cleaner and more revealing sound stage, where spacial information was more cohesive.
So I set about to have a crack at building some of Dennis Foley’s quadratic diffusers, bought the plans and managed through a friend (Kurtis) to find another guy (Paul, we also become great friends) who let me use tools in his cabinet making workshop and I finished the first two QRD17 diffusers (Paul is an audiophile now).
And modified my science experiment rug holder (well essentially that’s what my front wall absorber is) to fit two of these QRD17 on.
There are another two diffusers cut out, yet to be assembled. My wife and I both heard an improvement and curiously mostly in the lower end, where it seemed like my speakers finally had some depth in some bass.
I’ve changed focus for the moment, getting my electronics up off the floor onto a sprung isolation rack is the current project. I’ve only lived in this house a little over two years, so I’m going at it a little bit at a time, while getting out of the mortgage quickly (Dave Ramseying it).
My point is, that doing a bit of research and having a go at something is better than throwing your hands up in the air and not doing anything. A safe bet is to do some absorption and or diffusion on the front wall. I have a plan of attack, and it’s going to be done bit by bit and with listening as I go. I’m reading a lot about it, making informed and "safe bet choices".
You don’t have to break the bank to play around treating your room, read, plan, build and listen. I did mine a bit DIY, my wife is patient, and one day hopefully it’ll all come together as a nice looking, excellent sounding system :-)
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I'm constantly amazed that audiophiles can go on at length about VTA, upsampling, damping factor etc. but when it comes to the most important component, the room, they have little or no understanding. This is forgivable to an extent. Without having heard the enormous improvement attention to acoustics brings to the party it is difficult to conceptualise the transformative result.
All rooms need treatment, without exception. Even the Royal Albert Hall required some monster upside down 'mushrooms' to kill excessive echo.
The second post you received from member @dill provided you with lots of good info and there is tons more. Obtaining your advice from those links is preferable to getting conflicting opinions from ill informed posters here on the 'gon.
Once you have gained some understanding, which you should relish with glee because this is the only way you will ever get to hear your system truly perform, you will soon realise that guesswork does not enter into the requirements of treatment.
You will understand about wavelengths , how to calculate and how to deal with them. You will also learn that a rug, drapes or wall hangings do very little because they only provide narrow-band absorption. Now I expect someone to counter with 'I just placed a rug between the speakers and it made a huge difference" Well yes of course there will be a small improvement and the comment simply comes from them never having heard what a carefully sorted room sounds like.
The biggest thing happens down low in the Schroeder frequency range where bass energy combines, sometimes creating peaks and sometimes nulls. Bear in mind that a full null means zero sound. I repeat, when there is a null there is no sound, zilch, nada. It's MIA and no, no DSP or equalisation can bring it back. Even a partial null, say 15dB below average, could not be corrected because your amp is not powerful enough and the speaker voice coil would instantly fry.
Above the Schroeder frequency, average about 250Hz you have a reverberant field which can be addressed with diffusers and absorbers. This is important: the smaller the room, the more absorption is needed. The bigger the room, the more diffusion is needed. In practice the average size living room need both.
My direct advice after reading the material @dill provided is to read even more and then buy a suitable mic. for less than $100 and download a free program like REW and get started. Even if you get the professionals in you will at least be able to measure the before and after results and so avoid the possibility of being oversupplied which has happened to a friend of mine when he left it all up to GIK.
Imagine now hearing all the missing details in the bass and the fact that unless you act appropriately things will not change. If you want to go all the way then look into a multi-sub addition which will smooth out the lows even more. Can this bass problem be sorted with multi subs only? Well yes the extra subs will smooth the room nodes but you still have the issue of overly long decay across the full spectrum. Looking at this another way: installing multi-subs will smooth out the bass nodes and the addition of bass traps will reduce the long decay. Win win. Your ability to measure T60 yourself will get you to head of the class.
Have fun.
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Ethan Winer explains it in detail in Part 4 of his book, The Audio Expert. Well worth the read before haphazardly throwing stuff on the walls. His realtraps.com site also has some good starter articles on the subject.
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Yes, Ethan Winer is a good call. His YouTube videos are interesting and informative.
I forgot to mention, there is also the forum 'gearspace' formerly known as gearslutz, which has a whole section on acoustics with articles on building stuff yourself and on measuring, which is easier than you think even though I don't know what you think, I think. There is a much larger community of experienced guys and well worth a visit.
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@lemonhaze such a pity you haven't posted a system page.
Like millercarbon, the best sorted listening room I've sat in and heard music played on a system would be Mike Levine's. In your opinion what percentage of system budget would you expect for a room to come up to the relative performance of the stereo playing in it?
I've been reading where room proportions may matter as much and in some cases even more than just distances between boundaries in a listening room. And if you didn't have the budget to do an entire room all at once, where would you likely start?
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Is your stereo in a dedicated listening room, or, living, shared space?
Sometimes, you must compromise and are limited to what and where you can place things.
Another good all around audio book, which mentions acoustics and treatments is Robert Harleys book.
You are on the right track!
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Hi rixthetrick,
Difficult to apportion a budget as a percentage of total value of your system. I think of it as a case of taking X amount of $ to tame the room's acoustics which then will provide the correct acoustical environment to allow any and all systems to be heard at their optimum level of performance.
The room proportions do make a difference but are seldom found in the real world. The golden ratio or Fibonacci Sequence help with spreading the room modes so you do not get massive build up of certain frequencies. This is seldom found and is not an insurmountable problem. If possible avoid any one dimension being exactly twice or half that of another. So a cube would be absolutely worst case.
Any room, however, can be made to sound good. I made all my bass traps, diffusers and absorbers myself which does not cost that much. I used to visit demolishers and buy the insulation panels for peanuts. Look for Owens Corning 703 or similar.
Start with bass traps which need to be rather large but the divorce is worth it for good sound. 😎 These need to be big, you're dealing with long wavelengths so those dinky little scraps of foam Amazon sells are useless. Google superchunk DIY bass traps for an idea.
Corners are the place for BTs, any corners, the more the better. Usually the 2 front vertical corners are used for floor to ceiling traps but instating them horizontally along 1 or 2 wall/ceiling corners work just as well. This alone will make a very large improvement.
Place absorbers at the first reflection points. As I mentioned curtains, drapes or skimpy wall hangings do not absorb over a wide range of frequencies. Build or buy frames at least 4" deep to act as broad-band absorbers. The OC703 is available in panels 2'x4' so use frames to size or multiples. Panels 4'x6' or 3 panels 4'x2' with a small space between look smart and can be covered in different colour fabric.
A 'cloud' attached to the ceiling is a great way of eliminating the troublesome floor/ceiling bounce and does away for the need of a carpet or rug, though a rug will not harm anything. i helped a mate with a ceiling cloud and fitted an LED strip light around the perimeter on top. With the remote that came with it looked very neat, could change colour and dim to suite.
I am selling the old stone cottage and have abandoned any further work on the acoustics. I use Omnimic to measure which shows a consistently good T60 but also shows a slightly lumpy bass. Based on before, during and after screens that I need one more BT and job done.
Persevere with what you have started. You are clearly DIY capable so go for it and good luck.
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@oregon +1
Yes, The complete guide to high-end audio, it’s a great book.
Chapter 4: How to get the best sound from your room.
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@mike_in_nc Yes, that is the fundamental beginning. I custom built a room which addressed bass (built-in activated carbon filters). After your 3 recommended fixes, Shahki Hallographs (unless you have really fantastic soundstage and imaging speakers, then I use Synergistic Research HFTs (or use expensive and bulky quadradic diffusion paneling).
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@gnoworyta Let me help you cut through the muck here - - I've been exactly where you are at, and it can be overwhelming and confusing (see the dozens of different opinions here; plus your own quandry just not knowing where to start):
After two years of reading, studying, interacting with acoustic engineers, and then beginning to make plans for traps and diffusers I thought I needed, I was almost back at square one. In the end, I was so glad I was PATIENT. Don't be in a hurry. Buy once, cry once - - save yourself a lot of time and effort (and unstudied purchases or wasted building of trap designs).
You must, absolutely, measure your room first. Room measurement will not only tell you which type of treatment you need, but also where to place your speakers (and your listening position as well).
Here is the microphone you need $79...that's all you need. Period.
Acoustic Measurement Tools: UMIK-1 (minidsp.com)
Then for REW (Room EQ Wizzard) tutorial, you can learn to hook up the microphone and run the free software. There are 3 good tutorials for REW that will get you well on your way to treating your room, placing your speakers in the room, etc, Note: Ethan Winer at RealTraps will also help you with tutorial links or advice. He is honest and won't sell you anything by pushing, etc.
John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum • View topic - How to use REW to analyze the acoustics of your room... (johnlsayers.com)
Take the time to do this first: despite all the shortcuts recommended in the comments here, the fact is, there are none. "The Elephant is the Room"
Do this and you will know your room, and you can then research which treatments will mitigate the room problems. You cannot build or buy traps until you know the problem and its source or location. This is proper application of a particular treatment product in YOUR specific room by the analysis you've performed.
Begin patiently by buying (or building) the particular treatment "panels" and don't buy all of them at once. One step at a time with just a few panels is a simple and much cheaper (and less confusing) way to solve the problem and get excellent results. In addition, you may find you cannot afford to buy or build all the panels you need; or, you may find you don't want the looks of too many panels. In this case, you would know where to get the most benefit for your room for the least amount of money (or time and materials), and get the best looking room.
This process is not that complicated: just take it step-by-step, approach it systematically and methodically, and follow the science....and be patient. Forget all the voices. Just take charge of your room, learn along the way, take your time, and you'll be proud of your room and the results in the end. Feel free to PM me if you have questions.
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+1 on Jim Smith’s book Get Better Sound.
In particular how to pick the best listening position but there is a ton of other useful info (most of what is discussed here).
I used to have a bunch of tube traps. Now nothing except an optimal listening position an Vandersteen 5a carbons with the 11 band equalizer tuned to the room. Much better looks and sound.
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Now nothing except an optimal listening position an Vandersteen 5a carbons with the 11 band equalizer tuned to the room
An EQ??? Turn in your audiophile card immediately!! (Being sarcastic)
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But but ….. it’s all analog and built into the speaker
They said it would be ok 😅
But I shouldn’t have said no other room treatments. I’m lucky that we have large openings to adjacent rooms at both first reflection points. And my wife pushed for American Clay on the walls. It’s literally clay and it’s the best cure for slap echo I have ever heard. We did the ceiling too.
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My wife and I both heard an improvement and curiously mostly in the lower end, where it seemed like my speakers finally had some depth in some bass.
Yes! I have written about this often. Clean up the mid/treble and the bass rises from the depths. It's amazing how this can transform the sound of smaller speakers. It can make them sound huge.
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@erik_squires yes, well I am certainly on board and can attest to it working better, I thought it might be from breaking up the bass energies. But on this I am still discovering what to do, well, at least I'm reading and muddling through it.
@fleschler about activated carbon filters, yeah I've used the Acoustic Fields QRD17 plans for four diffusers, and I'm deliberating building two or possibly three of their low frequency absorbers (I might even just break out the cash and buy them instead).
How much did you use? What sized room, and impressions?
I'd really like to know, sorry if I'm getting personal.
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The best thing you can do, is to very precisely place your speakers by listening and using REW.
Take a look at the Before and after, with absolutely no room treatment. This living-music room is the most difficult room to make music sound good, vaulted ceilings, L shaped lots of little right angle little walls, a fireplace, and a lot of windows and skylights. On top the house is made with wood sticks, plaster walls, the wood floors are suspended, in other words a resonance box.
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Here is the before and after, as you can see the bass was way too loud. Look at the dip between 200Hz and ~350Hz.
Some could argue that I need more energy from 300Hz down, I will try new tubes to lower the brightness and see what the tubes do
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