Room help

The long wall is usually a good place for the speakers in a room such as yours. I have a similar situation but in reverse (if I’m reading your post correctly) whereas I can’t use the short wall due to asthetics and such and the fact that there is a wood covered Lally column separating the room. I find the system just so happens to sound better this way in my room. I might add that the room is fully finished in drywall, and fully carpeted, with a gigantic sectional couch and countless throws, pillows and blankets. There is no wall on the right side, open to rest of the room. It’s a pretty good mix of absorptive and reflective materials. Still working on a few diy treatments...the only thing I can recommend to you is maybe pull those speakers closer together by about a foot...and tow them in so that the axis of both speakers crosses just in front of you at your listening position. It may or may not improve Soundstage and central image. I use Tannoys and they are big proponents on serious toe in. A more radical toe in will decrease the effect of room boundaries to a degree.

Thank you!  Yes, my speakers are usually along the long wall.  Moving them to the short wall however really opened up the sound.  When I move them back in a few days I will play around with the toe in.  I should have mentioned I am using Monitor floorstanders.  They tend to produce good bass response so I think they may respond very well with a generous  toe in.  

Ok, maybe I have answered my own question,  Or at least am having a pleasant conversation with myself.  But I'd love it if someone helped me work through this...

Is it possible that the spacious sound I get when my system is set up along the long axis is because the back wall, which is brick,  is so far behind me (about 17 feet) and the reflected bass is not there to muddle things?  In this case when I go back to the short axis where the back wall is 4 feet behind me would the use of bass traps help me achieve the same effect?

I'm not sure we can replicate this exactly, but start with diffusor panels behind you and between the speakers.

My feeling is you can replicate better sound in your earlier orientation. Here is what I think… you can see my room under my ID. Consider putting up some photos.

First… if possible put the brick in front (to quiet the sound stage)… but also cover with a sound absorber (I use a heavy wool tightly knit carpet)… this will improve depth of image as well as widen.. You want to highly dampen the wall behind you. I suspect this is where you are really losing in terms of this location. Only an amp in between speakers. Heavy carpet between speakers and you.

That is the “big” stuff. Then you really want to fine tune… a diffusion tube behind each speaker and center behind amp. Tube traps in corner. Absorption bolsters along wall floor corner in front of listening wall. Finally corner diffusers at all wall - ceiling corners.

Is it possible that the spacious sound I get when my system is set up along the long axis is because the back wall, which is brick,  is so far behind me (about 17 feet) and the reflected bass is not there to muddle things? 

That was my first idea. It could also be that the brick is softer and less reflective than the plaster. If the plaster rests on a lath base it could have been absorbing a little of the low end as well when the speakers were pointed at it.

This could also have to do with your speakers now being nearer the open part of the room, emanating out into the stairflight etc and not being trapped under the trapezoid of roof.

As far as aesthetics, if there's other furniture causing the conflict, and some of that furniture is a pair of bookshelves, you could always try placing the speakers atop them provided there's no danger. That would ensure you have nothing between the speakers and is usually good for low end extension.

Forget WAF. Orientation with the speakers facing the long direction and space behind you is correct.

Diffusers are a band-aid.

Still struggling with a similar situation myself. Suffice to say it’s complicated. Our ears interpret reflected noise and try to line them up. At best, we interpret room reflections in such away that the sound stage is wide and - most importantly - deep. I believe any treatments or dealings with the brick wall would have an absorbent affect and would not give you what you need - which is the even order harmonics that trick your brain into thinking the sound is coming from behind the speakers in front of you. You could get a cheap mic, test your current set up, reconfigure, test again, and then keep moving around until your long wall configuration matches the results of your preferred sound. My gut is that you will need to pull your seat out further from the back wall, push your speakers further apart and into the corners, and still you will end up with a dead space between the speakers where the bass should be. 
 

Absorption will only get you so far here. It will remove unwanted reflections. What I think you need is more correct reflections that the width of the room doesn’t allow. To test, try moving two large surfaces into the room - bookshelves or plywood. From your seating position, look behind you and imagine a 2 bumper pool shot that would get you back to your speaker - 1st hit the back wall then hit the temporary panel. Make sure the panels are out wide enough not to be inside the 1st reflection point zone.
 

This is what your narrow setup is doing. The sound hits the side walls, then the back wall, then your ears. You interpret the sound as coming from the speakers in front of you because it hit 2 surfaces (1 surface would cancel the sound out) and since the sound took so long to hit your ears, you interpret it as coming from further away - ie deep behind the speakers. Because bass frequencies hold up better in time, the bass tends to step further back in the sound stage - and now the instruments sound more separated. 
 

I have gone so far down this road as to add rear surrounds out of phase with the front speakers to aid in the illusion. The are directed at the space between the speakers in front of me. This actually works but at the cost of imaging. 
 

I’m not an expert by any means - but I would say try to experiment and do what you can to understand what is happening before you start purchasing permanent room treatments. 

Thanks for all the responses! 

I will continue playing around with the setup.  I'm really fascinated by the process.  And moving stuff costs nothing.  

I'm also reassured that this is not just an easy solution that I am simply too inexperienced to figure out quickly.

@zazouswing +++, but - - - on the rears.

@likat - our room is an almost duplicate of yours, including being upstairs with a staircase at one end. I had 8 foot custom bookshelves made that sit outside the speakers which act as diffusers. Blinds over the window and quilt over the TV. Pulled out the W/W carpet and installed Ultra hard strand bamboo floor about 75% covered with thick wool area rugs.

The missus wanted it the other way. She hates saying "You were right"

The System

@likat , Your problem with the original orientation is that you are sitting way too close to the rear wall. You can try and add a lot of absorption to the rear wall but it will never sound as good as the new orientation. As a rule of thumb you want the listening position in the middle of the room with the speakers in a symmetrical situation. They should either both be next to corners or both along a wall away from corners. Both speakers near corners is better for bass but it puts an early reflection right next to the speaker which should be deadened. All this depends on the type of speaker you are using. I am assuming you are using a point source dynamic loudspeaker and not a panel speaker like a Magnepan. Symmetry is crucially important for stereo systems. Any variation between the two channels blurs the image. Achieving perfect symmetry is not easy. No two speakers of the same make and model are exactly the same. There will be slight variations in frequency response. Add the room and you can get wild variations in frequency response between the two channels. All this can be managed depending on how much money you want to throw at the problem. Getting any system close to perfection requires a measurement system and microphone ($300 at Parts Express) and digital signal processing (another $3000). Trying to do it by "ear" the old fashioned way is like duck hunting with a sling shot.

You may (or may not) find this helpful. Since Audiogon won't allow links... search "Wilson Speaker Placement" in your preferred browser. Additionally, search "The Four Secrets of Speaker Placement" by Robert Harley, printed in "the abso!ute sound". Last, I greatly respect and appreciate Robert Harley's "The Complete Guide to High-End Audio. It is inexpensive eBooks or Kindle. I think it's a good reference that gets beyond all the personal pontificating often found in forums. 😇

OP,

In addition to moving stuff around, you can use stuff around the house to simulate treatments. Like a heavy throw rug hung over a ladder… cloth covered chair with towels in reflection points. Etc.

@ieales  Yes! That looks like my room in cross section, looking down the long axis,  except the staircase is behind the system.  It does sound much better in this orientation.  I am supposing it is because the back wall is so far away.  Aesthetically though the set up looks much better when it is oriented perpendicular to the long axis (with the system along the long wall) so I continue to struggle to maximize the sound with this set up.  Thank you for the insights!  

The adjoining room on that floor has been redone with hardwood floors and exposed beams transversely across the ceiling which is about a foot taller.  .  Built in bookshelves along the long walls.  Not a ton else in there.  But I have a separate system along the short wall and no matter what combination of things i do there it sounds very good to my ear.  I'm getting off my own topic i suppose but I will be having the original room redone in a similar fashion.  My theory is that it will actually help me to get the sound I want but I will need to work at dampening the back wall.  I'll update if anyone is interested in my journey.  

@mijostyn Thank you!  I think that you speak the hard truth that I was hoping to get around through experimentation, dampening, analysis, etc.  I will eventually come around to doing what's right.  

@ghdprentice  Very practical suggestions indeed. 

@dreas I totally know what I will be doing with much of my evening .  Thank you for the references!