So Pat, what is the verdict on the Marconi's? |
I ordered a matched pair of black base Marconi's, should arrive
next week. |
I have been using Marconi black base 6sn7 tubes and they are amazing in the Dude. They do mids like no other tube I have heard. The Marconi is balanced from top to bottom and has great tone.
I had not heard of them until I saw an ad here on the Gon and purchased a set. I'm glad I did. Warm, great mids and perfect tone to my ears. |
What 6SN7 tubes have you guys tried in the Dude? So far, I can tell you that there are various grades of Raytheon 6SN7's. Some are very good, others are pretty bad. Stay away from the tall glass labeled "Uniline". I like the short glass version that is like the VT-231, without the smoked glass. I also like the RCA stagger plate.
It's all about integration and preference. I'm just curious as to what you are using. |
Sorry Bob, there isn't enough room under the hood to fit a phono in addition to the Dude circuitry. |
Can the preamp also be fitted for phono? |
Can you post a photo here, so that we all know which Marconi version that you are using?
I know what you mean about Paul's cables. Want to guess what I use? :) |
I don't know but will look at them. I am not a tube expert so I will show you a picture!
I know they sound amazing with my new TRL IC !
Bill |
Which plate Marconi are you using, Bill? Paul says that Marconi had many sub-contractors and so perhaps many different plates.
Are they rectangular, triangular, round, etc.?
I ask because I remember trying a pair of triangular plates in my old GTP-3 preamp a number of years ago. |
I am now using some very sweet Marconi 6sn7 tubes and the Dude is singing sweeter then ever.
I highly recommend this tube if you crave rich, buttery midrange magic. Make no mistake the details, transparency and balance to from top to bottom are all there with this tube. It however is the best I have heard in the highs and all important midrange.
What a great find. I paid $65 for the NOS set. |
roxy54:
The Element Cable website was down but it is up again. |
I went looking for their website yesterday (Element cable) and it wasn't available. Are they definately still in business? |
My arsenal of isolation devices include: mapleshade wooden blocks (someoen gave them to me as gift), some kind of blocks made from rubebr and wood (give to me by paul) and a set of solid metal spikes with plates to hold them.
I have tried them all and honestly I do not hear any difference. May be they all are good or may be they do not make any difference.
My power chord (which *does* make a difference) is the Red Storm made by Element Cable. It has been my best pre-amp and CD player cable so far and I prefer it over the 10 times more expensive Shunyata. You can guess the price of he Red Storm. It was $70. I do not know if he still makes it. |
Agear: I agree with on audio mystics. Paul is an audio mystic or may be an audio saint or a sufi. Sometimes I imagine Paul sitting like a Bhudha and meditating about new mods, hahaha. |
Rx8man: Thanks. Yes to the magazines being an entertainment. But the real entertainment is audiophile themselves who go by these ratings and by "the higher the price of a cable, the bettery" I rather spend my time watching a standup comedy. Here is a recommendation: Croocked Finger by David Crowe.
Yes, the X-2 is an SS. |
Gallant, what isolation devices are you using? What is the Dude sitting on? Also, what power cord is feeding the Dude? |
Gallant, wonderfully thought out and written review. I am very intested in what results after the Dude is back and settled into your system.
I did not see the cost of your X2 for comparison to the Dude in terms of value?
I did find the Dude really can change with different NOS output tubes. You can play with a couple to achieve exactly what you want. The Dude sings with all tubes, but you can fine tune to your specific likes.
Thank you again for taking the time to post your thoughts. I am thankful for experienced, well thought out audiophiles like yourself who write so clearly. Helps us all to find those hidden audio treasures. |
I also agree with your comments about Paul. I have observed that guys who inhabit a creative sphere where designs literally appear in their minds (or are given to them....it depends on what you believe) are not the best businessmen. Audio mysticism and keeping your eyes on $ and time do not seem to coexist easily. Dale Pitcher from Intuitive Design is the same way. My entire system has been built by audio mystics. It requires patience and endurance like any good relationship (and it is just that,... a relationship), but it is so worth it in a hobby that creates many fleeting relationships. |
Gallant, thanks for the thoughtful review. The Dude's presentation changes fairly markedly with tube rolling, so that is one place to fiddle. You may also want to find cables that are less sensitive to length. Dale Pitcher's are generally not and might me worth investigating. Some philes do not believe in cables, but I have noted profound differences after switching to Dale's cables. Keep us posted. |
Nice write-up Gallant, you spelled it out very well, fun to read from start to finish.
As Agear remarked, we need more comparisons and shoot-outs, I don't care what Stereophile or TAS says about class A,B,C, or what-ever, it's entertainment to me.
Charlie's X-2 Preamp is Solid-State correct ? |
Here is my review of the Dude and its comparison with Charlie's X-2 preamp. I posted it on my system but also writing it here.
I used to be a brand name guy longtime ago but not any more. None of my audio gear is Stereophile reviewed. My speakers, the Apogee Fullrange, were never reviewed. The smaller Apogee Diva was a Stereophile Class ‘A’ component. After having lived several Divas, it is safe to say the Fullrange walks over the Diva, making the class rating irrelevant. My CD player, TRL moded Sony, replaced my Meridian Reference player and was never reviewed, at least not to my knowledge. The amp, TRL GT-800, was never reviewed either but for me it is the final frontier in amps. The cables, by Element Cables, are beginning to get reviewed but I discovered them long ago at my own. They are so cheap too. Then I found the X-2 pre-amp, just through sheer coincidence.
This is similar to my taste in clothes. My suits are custom-made, mostly in Hong Kong, made without a brand name but with fine fabric and tailoring craftsmanship, and most importantly at 3-5 times lower price. A salesman at a big name clothing store that I happen to know was keen to see custom-made suits, so I took one with me. The quality of the fabric and finishing was enough to make his and his colleagues eyes pop out -- I did not even have to tell them the price. Big brand names carry a lot of psychological advantage which is usually factored into the price. And for some people, higher price tags unconsciously make an item superior. Not trying to be snobbish here. Drawing a parallel between clothes (substitute here your favorite collections) and audio, I am trying to say that I spend my hard-earned money (especially these days) very carefully and I do so for the value rather than the brand. I am not a brand guy. That does not make all big brands junk to my eyes and ears but the brand name alone will not be able to convince me. When it comes to audio, my only criterion is sound quality tested by me and not if it has is a big brand. The Dude is bit like a custom-made outfit with finest components and craftsmanship. But it had to convince me on what it is supposed to do: Its sound quality and nothing else.
Pual Weitzel believes in a very extended time period for break-in. Therefore, I had to give the Dude at least two months. Paul was right, the Dude sound improved a hell of a lot over this period, changing rapidly in the first week and then steadily until now. I have high regards for Paul who strikes me as man with very high audio IQ (his business IQ is another story though). So far whatever he has said about anything in audio (amp, CD player, components, crossovers, drivers, woofers, tweeters, caps, inductors, etc.) he has always been right so far and whatever he has produced has been a sheer master piece. Yet, I believe more in my own listening than I trust anyone else’s opinion. This overrides my good relationship with Paul who has been always very nice and generous. I find his service to be honest and caring although he can be slow in fulfilling his promises. But I should mention that I first discovered Paul’s products and then Paul himself, not the other way round. Thus, when Paul told me about the Dude, I politely declined. So satisfied was I with Charlie’s X-2 preamp that the idea of getting the Dude did not come to my mind even though I heard good things about it. But then people say good things about several things anyway. I do not have to try everything good out there, did I? But when Paul offered to lend me his Dude, I accepted. How could it hurt?
But the Dude was up against the giant, the Charlie X-2. There is no snake oil in Charlie’s X-2 Its fantastic sound can be attributed to the extremely robust and regulated power supply benefitting from Charlie’s decades of experience and the video op-amp based topology inspired by research papers published in Audio Amateur magazine At the same time, I did not doubt that the Dude would be a good preamp. If Paul can design an amp like the GT-800, he *can* also design a great pre-amp. Thus, the main question was how it would compare to the X-2, and would I consider buying it. This may not be too irrelevant of a question for other people including those reading this forum because the Dude is against something which I consider to be supremely good and possibly an ultimate pre-amp with almost zero distortion, flattest frequency response and sheer transparency, resolution, and dynamics.
Since the X-2 was a winner over the Lamm L2 (the Lamm was sweeter on human voice though, because of its FET coloration but considerably shy in bass and dynamics), and swiftly knocked down several contenders such as the Conrad Johnson 17LS, Audio Valve Aclipse, BAT VK-51, Sim Audio Moon, etc. Recently, I lent the X-2 (I own two versions of it) to a friend who has the Audio Valve Aclipse. This friend who is a serious audiophile with extensive knowledge and good ears was stunned at the difference that he heard. He called me the next day and all he could say was “what have you done to my system and me?” The point of all this is that if the Dude can outperform the X-2 then by induction it has to be better than the other competitors that the X-2 has beaten. Thus, the relative comparison with the X-2 is important, which also raises another question, that is, if anything in X-2 can be bettered and furthermore if the Dude can do so.
The Due is well made. I really like its case as well as its knobs, on/off switch, and overall finishing. It does not come with any remote but I do not care about that. It just adds to the cost and most serious listeners think a remote control circuitry can degrade the sound. I should mention that the resolution and transparency of my system is to a point of saturation where further improvements are unlikely And so is the acoustic of my listening room that I have tuned to my liking after extensive experimentation. The system is astonishing revealing and I am so familiar with its sound that I can blindly tell even a fly is sitting on my speaker cables (figuratively speaking because no insects are not allowed in my listening room).
Well, now on to the comparison. The comparison between the Dude and X-2 was extensive, lasting more than a month. They competition was stiff, much closer than I thought even thought I must say I did not know what to expect. In fact, I started with a clear head without any presumption but expected to make a conclusion fast. Over a period of one month, I switched them several times and listened very carefully for a variety of music. I was very watchfully observing their characteristics such as resolution, transparency, bass, midrange, highs, dynamics, soundstage, depth, and imaging.
The two pre-amps sound different, which is a bit of surprise because if they are both neutral, which they both claim and are supposed to be, then they should sound the same. But they do not. That means one of them or both are not neutral, or there is no such thing as neutral sound. Yet they both sound fantastic, so much so that I do not miss the Dude if I am listening to the X-2 and vice versa. And even more interesting is that fact I cannot let either one go. They both are just fabulous. As I listened on, I began to appreciate how great the Dude was since I was very familiar with the X-2 sound. But I still had to keep the fundamental question in mind, that is which one is the winner. I could not find the answer to that question, with my opinion switching after every listening session. As I listened more, I appreciated the qualities of both of them and found it increasingly more difficult to pick one. In fact, I thought the match was a draw. And what about any weaknesses or areas of improve? To answer that we have to examine in details how the Dude and X-2 performed in different areas of sound.
The Dude’s mains strengths are its prodigious bass, dynamics, and width of the soundstage. The Dude does not sound “bass-heavy” and nor does the X-2 sound “bass light”. It is just that the bass in the Dude has more weight while being clean. Furthermore, the Dude bass is very musical and powerful, making the orchestral music more dramatic. The soundstage produced by the Dude is about 10% wider than the X-2 but the X-2 has better central imaging. The treble of the Dude is full and lush and not recessed or rolled off even though the X-2 has more prominent highs.
The Dude outperforms the X-2 in these areas, not the latter is a slouch by any measure, and vice versa. The resolution and details are identical in the two pre-amps. The X-2 is a bit more extended in the highs. The X-2 is also more transparent. But again, when I say one is better than the other in a certain area, I do not mean the other one is lacking anything. The Dude has w wider soundstage and bit more 3D effect. But the “touch effect” (you feel you can touch the singer or instrument) is more prominent in the X-2.
Overall, it is extremely difficult to choose the winner and the match seems to be a draw. This may sound like a political statement but it is not. Now if you threaten to shoot me unless I pick one winner then I would have to say it is the X-2. The reasons are: more extended highs of the X-2 and its ability to drive long cables, and that the Dude runs out of steam at very high volume (which is due to my 25 feet long interconnects and will not be problem in other systems). I made this observation after a month because I do not usually listen to very high volume at good volumes, I never noticed this – in fact, the Dude was a bit more dynamic than the X-2. I also want a bit more midrange and greater transparency from the Dude. Thus, there is a little room for improvement in the Dude while there is nothing I can do to improve the X-2. About 6 months ago, Charlie did add an option FET stage in the X-2 to make its midrange sweeter but it took away the other magic and I rejected that mod. In summary, if the X-2 is 99/100, the Dude is 98/100. But this does not end here. I have had long discussions with Paul about the potential improvements I have sent the Dude back to Paul to improve its power supply, output current level to overcome long cables at high volume, and higher quality tubes to have a bit more extended midrange and highs. These mods will cost extra.
Of course, there will be still room for improvement through tube rolling. In the comparison, the Dude is also getting an unfair disadvantage because I already have a preamp that I like very much and the replacement if any has to be better not just equal. Otherwise, I see no reason to spend money. So the fact that I have purchased the Dude is an indicative of my confidence in it.
The verdict though marginally in favor of the X-2 is not so firm though and definitely not final. I lent the Dude and X-2 to the guy (I mentioned above) who was overwhelmed with the X-2. He tells me that even though he was astonished with the X-2, the Dude is even better in his system. That also makes sense. In audio it is all about component matching.
When the Dude returns from Paul with additioal improvements, I expect it to return with a vengeance. It is very capable of beating the X-2 and it might. We will see. But one thing is certain: both the Dude and X-2 deliver absolutely the very best one can expect from a pre-amp. Since the X-2 is no longer made and Charlie has disappointed more than 50 interested people (clearly, his business IQ is extremely low), and I personally apologize to all of them, the Dude is an uncrowned king of pre-amps at least in my audio realm. You do not need to spend mega bucks on big brand names. The Dude will be better, I can confidently bet on it. If Paul’s Tube Research Labs were an established big name in audio and the Dude would carry a price tag of $30,000, I wonder in what category audio magazines would place it. A+ or A++?
|
I think there are many variables at play in reviews, and there is value in both initial impressions and long-term, systematic analysis. I also think there is value in blinded listening sessions with multiple listeners to remove bias. Most people are scared of that...of not being able to recognize your own piece of gear, etc. There is also something to be said for involving non-audiophile involvement whose observations can sometimes be shocking and revealing. In summary, the more information, the better. Gallant, you have a computer, engineering background. I think you would agree with all this.... |
Gallant,
You exercise a very wise methodology I think more folks ought to follow. From my experience, gear that jumps out at you on first listen tends to become unlistenable over time; gear that leaves you initially wanting can become some of the most rewarding. The time-consuming, iterative process of trying to 'fit' a new piece into the system can often transform a lackluster piece into something special, but patience is certainly required. I look forward to your evaluation.
-Richard |
Dart6 and Agear: I am a cool customer, albeit a cool and patient listener. I do not have the ability to make fast a/b/a comparisons, nor do I believe in making such conclusions. When I test a new audio product, I have to live with it for a significantly long period of time in order to make a determination how it fares in my system and to my taste. Thus, the Dude had to be given ample time for testing.
I am writing a detailed comaprison report and will post it soon on my system thread.
|
I am curious too.....
Gallant_diva, where are things? You have had the Dude for a few months.
I know Pat/Rx8man has not received his Dude yet. He does have a TRL passive which has surprised him.... |
Gallant_diva and Rx8man, are you able to add to your experiences with the dude thanks |
You will love the Dude!!!
Report back after a little burn-in my friend.
Bill |
Bill, you can count me in, a couple more weeks and I'm there with ya.
Thanks "Dude" ! |
Grannyring:
I am listening to the Dude and it is taking my breath away but the question is how does it compare to my reference pre-amp. See my thread in preamp reviews, entitled "Possibly the best pre-amp one can have"
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?rprea&1189119648&read&3&4&
which defeated the LAMM Reference pre-amp.
For that I will need at least a month of listening before reaching a verdict and it is unlikely that I will have enough listening sesssion in the coming year so it will be a while. |
That's kool Tony. The Joule Electra was/is a nice pre-amp. I have also heard that Rowland pre when I was still in Minnesota through some Eggleston Andra IIs. Again, things sounded good. I am looking forward to your perceptions of the Dude since you are a seasoned and fairly analytical phile. |
I'm about to send my TRL Pre-1.5 in for conversion to the Dude. Looking forward to hearing it in my system. Mine will carry over the dual 45 step attenuators and Stereo/Mono switch. Other than that it will be gutted and redone with the new power supply and tube circuit. It will be the first tube preamp I have had since a Joule Electra LA-100 MkIII. I have been a big fan of passive preamps and use two different designs in my system at the moment. I have also had the Jeff Rowland Capri which is a preamp with video opamp output stage. It will be interesting to see how the Dude compares. |
Bill, my Dude is still sounding phenomenal. I will be writing a review soon. |
Gallant Diva and other Dude owners,
Please update me on your experiences with the Dude. I am still in love with my Dude and it continues to play beautiful, trouble free music. |
Wow, that will be very interesting indeed. I look forward to your comments. The Dude works very well in my system and it will be my last preamp for the very long term!!!! |
I got the Dude 5 days ago. It is in my system now and breaking in.
Recall my reviews on "Possibly World's best pre-amp"
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?rprea&1232805714&read&3&4&
I was not keen on trying any new pre-amp given my satisfaction with Charlie's X-2 pre-amp (the X-2 had replaced Lamm reference pre-amp priced at $14k) but Paul convinced me to try the Dude. So I thought it won't hurt.
For me Charlie's X-2 pre-amp was the ultimate pre-amp, a reference and end of my journey in pursuit of the best pre-amp. I own TRL GT-800 amp and Paul's moded CD Player (I have 2, just in case in breaks down). So as much as I have respect and trust in Paul's abilities, his Dude is up against its ultimate challenge.
So folks, this is gonna be the final match of "Ultimate Fighters Championship" or "Heavy Weight Championship of the World" or F1 racing.
I will be an absolutely honest referee and a relentless judge with no bias to my Charlie or Paul. I may have to eat my own word that the X-2 would be my last pre-amp, or I may offend Paul. But I will keep my integrity as top priority and which pre-amp pleases me more.
So stay tuned folks.....I wil be back....soon... with my review and verdict. |
I've had both, and the 23 step is fine by me, although the extra steps might come in handy if you have an unusual room, such as an "L" shape that you are dealing with.
Otherwise, I tend to listen around the same listening level, changing it only when I play back a recording that was massively compressed. Then again, I don't tend to play many of those.
I'll suggest that Paul make the 45 step an option. |
Yes, that would me a nice option for some. My 24 step works just fine for me.
I have been playing with stands/footers under the Dude. The Sistrum stands sound best to my ears. Better then maple, brass, carbon fiber and sand box types.
Brian, you should try them under the Samson amps. The SP1's |
Perhaps Paul should make the 45 step optional? |
Strangely, I am okay with the 23 step attenuator. My BAT preamp has 99 steps as a comparison. I never thought 23 steps would be sufficient. But it works for me.... |
|
The old TRL preamps had the dual 45 step Shallco volume controls which was nice for fine adjustment. My TRL battery preamp uses these. If I upgrade to the Dude the 45 step attenuators are coming along for the ride. |
I would love remote or wish the volume knob had a few more steps. But like you it sounds so good that I really don't care anymore.
Bill |
Hi Bill,
You have tried quite a few preamps. I think you are right in picking the Dude as the best. Even though I have listened to many gears elsewhere, I only have owned 3 preamps so far; the Dude, BAT VK-3iX, and my DIY SST (simple single triode) preamp. To me, the Dude is the best of the three.
My BAT preamp uses 6922s. Even though I probably have used one of the very best 6922 variants, Telfunken 6DJ8s, but I like the sound of 6SN7s better. However, BAT preamps have balanced outputs and more capacitors in the B+ power supply, and I think they contribute to more powerful bass.
My DIY SST preamp is a reflection of my audio/electronic experience. I use premium parts throughout the SST preamp. It sounds pretty good but not finished yet. However, after listening to the Dude preamp, I am not very motivated to finish it up. LOL...
The Dude preamp is a time proven product after decades of continuous improvement from TRL. I have to say that it is very difficult for other companies to match that. I played violin when I was a kid and later on played trumpet in school band. I was an electronic DIYer/tweaker when I was a teenager and later on received my EE PhD degree from UCLA. I have to say that Paul really knows his stuff well.
IMHO, the Dude does have a couple of operational issues. But I can ignore them because it just sounds too good. |
I have about 450 hours on the Dude. It is indeed a very nice preamp! The initial slight edginess is all gone. It is all music to my ears now.
I am thinking to send my Marantz SA11 player to TRL for mods. This shows how much I like the Dude preamp! |
Vett93,
Please update us as it burns in. I find the Dude sets a new standard for bass control, articulation and power in a tube preamp.
Very open and live sounding to my ears. I really enjoy the Dude!
Bill |
Let the Dude get around 500 hours on it. It should have more of what you seek once it has that many hours on it.
I should warn you though that it is a very neutral preamp, although a guy can always tube roll to get the desired flavor.
Remember, the Dude abides. |
The Dude is more musical than my BAT VK-3iX. The Dude also has a larger sound stage and more details. Its midrange is also better.
The BAT does have its strength though. Its bass extends to lower and is more impactful. This is probably due to its higher capacitance in the B+ power supply.
Maybe I'll add more capacitors to the Dude preamp one day..... |
I use the Raytheon tubes that Paul likes and the preamp just sounds so amazing to me.
I place the Dude on a Star Sound Sistrum stand which is the best I have heard including maple under my Dude.
How does the Dude compare to your tweeked out BAT pre thus far?
My system sounds so good right now that I smile before , during and after each music session I have.
Very happy with the Dude !
Bill |
I have received my Dude preamp and put about 170 hours on it. I have to say that I like its sound!
Bill, have you tried clear glass RCA 6SN7s? I am amazed that these inexpensive tubes sound better than other expensive tubes I own.
Have you tried maple platform as Paul suggested? I think this preamp is quite sensitive to the platform supporting it by looking at its design. |
No problem. I still don't have the Dude preamp though. |
