Review of Dartzeel NHB-108 Amplifier

Jonathan,

Have I been selling you equipment in my sleep again? ;-)

Rick Gardner
Positive Feedback

I did notice a brief reference to the Lamm 1.2 ref, which I would have thought may have made a closer comparison than the 2.1 set. Any thoughts about driving a Wilson Sophia?

Do you guys realize that most of the given & take so to speak has btwn dealer/importers and reviewers...and about each other...and about this thread...so that you have driven the curious "simple" audiophile out?: Perosnally I have no issues with dealers or reviewers posting here and actually welcome it...as long as we all stay on the subject at hand. I sort of understand what you guys all saying but you can take your disgreements off line please in the interest of others who simply wanted to see if what initial feedback was on the new preamp. Thanks in advance.

Thanks Jtinn. So you are saying might as well upgrade the speaker itself if I indeed spend that kind of the money on a tweeter upgrade. V good pt. Not familiar with the DB99MK2 and will check out. And I think the VR4Jrs will not exceed my speakers anyway. Increasingly it seems I need to first experiement with the power amps then go for them there. Who knows upgrading the power amps to say your beloved DarZeeTel NH108s may just do the trick after all.

Henryk: You have a lot going on. The Kharma speakers are wonderful. Adding the diamond tweeters, at least here in the US, costs about $20k US. I really think if you are going to spend that kind of money and stay with Kharma, you should look at the Midi Exquisite. The Midi is designed for a small to medium sized room. If you want delve into other speakers, I am very biased toward the Von Schweikert's. That is why I sell them. That being said, the VR7's also are a big speaker. And if your room is very small, it may be a bit much. You might consider the Von Schweikert DB99 MK2.

One last thing: I use the DCC2' as a pre-amp as well. I had thought of leaving the Linns and introducing a sep pre but upon further reflection this seems the wrong path: instead get the amps right then audition pre-amps to compare with the DCC2 and new amp in suit to see I really need to etc. Do you guys/gals agree?

probably should add I prefer SS to tubes: not necessarily in sound (there are great examples of both, and the opposite true) but really do not want to go down the tube rolling path: call is self discipline: otherwise knowing myself would endlessly experiement and I simply do not have enough time and prefer getting things set and just emjoying the music, you know?

Jtinn, Mike and others who have exp: I currently have the Kharma 2.3Fs...not the beloved 3.2s...tried them and personally thought the 2.3Fs were better at image solidity and bass articulation without sacrifcing that great disappearing act. The Midis are out of my price range and so are the VR9s...well actually if I want to I can upgrade to them but the size of these speakers especially the VR9s are a bit daunting plus WAF. When I purchased them I also got the Focal tweeter not the new diamond tweeter as I would have to waited another 4-6 months or so as I live in HK. The question is as I will b moving early next yr I am re-thinking my set up (once again: but its actually fun to do so). This being HK again a very large dedicated listening rm is out of the question and probably the VR9s are out of the question: they may sound great still but just visually too dominant (yes, I am acknowledging that indeed it is a factor to me: not beauty necessarily but just avoid being visually dominant). The Meitner front end is here to stay. What I am trying to think about is what to investigate: How would upgrading my tweeters in the Kharma's be like? What about the smaller VR speakers such 7 or even 4jr? Or Avalons? In this process, what amps should I investigate to "upgrade" my "old" (5 years) Linn Klimaxx Solo mono blocks? The Linns are quick and open but lack that mid range beauty (not looking the excessive lush though given the type of music I listen too I guess) and compared to other amps I have heard at times sound somehow "recessed", for a lack of better description. This is the background for me to read Audiogon etc: I know I should first know the dimensions of my listening room (basically living room) first and audition but still trying to narrow my field of investgation and devise a more methodical way of thinking about this. Should I start with amps or speakers? My current thinking was keep the speakers, investigate amps, then consider the speakers again (tweeter upgrade or say chging cables etc)...but reading this post has confused me once again. Any feedback or suggestions would be welcomed. Consider it as some advice to a fellow music lover. I listen to all sorts of jazz, rock, fusion, funk, a bit of classical...I don't need something to be very visceral if you know what I mean but I do want clarity, mid range beauty, bass articulation (really deep bass extension would be nice to have but not a decisive priority for me) and a open, high & deep sound stage (& do not like speakers which have a very narrow sweet spot: not conducive to my listening habits...that's why I have ruled a lot of speakers: including the Aerial 20Ts: sound chged too much according to listening height).

Dazzdax & Hooper: darTZeel is an anagram for Deletraz. Hervé's last name. :)

Hooper to correct you, due to your owning two amplifiers, you would be twice as biased as most. :)

Herve's last name is Deletraz. He must have coined Dartzeel from his name.

Hi, Dazzdax:

Great question. I have no clue why Herve calls the company DarTZeel. I'll have to ask him. Or perhaps Jonathan (JTinn) will know. I have heard the A-50V in NYC, but I've never done a direct comparison with the Dart. Personally, I never been a huge fan of the Accuphase sound. It's just a little too warmish for my taste. I like something more transparent and accurate. The Dart is the polar opposite. IMO, it's one of the very best amps on the planet. Then again, how do you really define "best"? Anyway, it's an incredible amp that does everything right, at least to my ears. The dynamics are lightning quick and powerful, especially for a 100-watter. Clarity and transparency are mesmerizing. I've never heard an amp reveal as much information as this one does. But, most of all, it's effortlessly natural and nonfatiguing. When paired with the right gear, you can listen for hours and hours on end. It would probably take a plastic surgeon to remove the smile from your face! It's that good. But I own two, so of course I'm biased. But I've heard a lot of the top contenders out there, both in my home and at shows, and I can say without reservation that the DarTZeel is at the very top of the heap.

Hi Hooper, I have two questions regarding the DarTZeel: 1. Why does Hervé call his amp DarTZeel? Is it a character from a cartoon? 2. Do you know the Accuphase A-50V? This amp has some similarities to the DarTZeel (and costs about the same as the DarTZeel). I'm curious how the DarTZeel sounds in comparison to the Accuphase.

Chris

Keithr, I would love to see some measurements too. But my own in-room measurements mimic the positive feedback reviewer's. There's some output below 30hz, but as the speakers are rated to go down to 35hz, it's only natural that that is about where the bass starts rolling off. Wayne Garcia in the recent issue of TAS claims that the speakers down go much below 40hz but "deliver the most solid, forceful, and well-defined 40hz I've encountered in my room."

So where did that extra 10hz go? Perhaps it's due to the positive feedback reviewer's room? The SET amps that he seemingly spent most of his time with? His tweaks that may have decoupled the speakers from the floor? Alas, it just happens so that he was reviewing the Ceramique sub as well, whose lowest crossover setting conveniently happens to be 50hz I believe. Nah, I enjoyed the review and he seems like he genuinely enjoys the speakers and that's all it matters. I do strongly believe that most people will "hear" something "appreciable" below 50hz in most rooms though.

Howie- I said that based on the positive feedback review, where the reviewer notes, even though measured differently, he didn't find/hear anything appreciable below 50hz. The several times I've heard them, I would tend to agree.

It's still a 2-way speaker (the most expensive of its kind, I believe) and has limitations based on that 7" driver. Don't get me wrong--I've heard it and think it sounds great, just don't agree that 2 70lb 2-ways is worth anywhere near 22k, irrespective of sound. Merlins are 1/2 that price and obviously compete as well. And people dog Wilson on pricing :)

I would love to see measurements on the Kharma, I admit although I'm not sure they have been published.

MikeL- I agree that for me personally it's tough to justify any 18k amp. But that aside, just while I'm sure it sounds utterly amazing, it's tough to swallow an amp at that pricing point that a) isn't a monoblock and b) can't drive all speakers.

Of course, just my opinion....

Wow, what a rush! I know of some of the gentlemen posting here, but I wouldn't mind some kind of audiogon Playbill "List of Characters" to keep up with things since it's been 2 1/2 years since my last post (note to all: the withdrawal/rhythm method really doesn't work).

Not to crash the party, but I imagine even casual and new readers to this and other forums as well as newbies to the High End would use some sense and reason before saying farewell to their loved ones (oops, I meant $$$) and purchasing rather expensive merchandise before doing some due diligence - with regard to the equipment AND the respective dealers. One might get those nice warm and fuzzy self-congratulatory feelings when "warning" others of what one perceives, but when the body count is over all that's left is a bunch of (cue violins.....now) hurt feelings.

OK, I'm stepping off my soap box. How about those Yankees?

The darTZeel in "Hi" impedance mode will easily handle the Merlins. I have heard them driven quite well with much less power.

The only time impedance is an issue for the darTZeel is if the speaker drops below 2.9 ohms. If so, the amplifier needs to be set to "low" impedance mode and there would be no issue.

Tab110:

From the look of it, any Merlin speaker should be a pretty benign load. The specs listed on their website indicate 89dB efficiency and an 8-ohm nominal impedance, with a minimum of 6.5. The Dart should be able to handle that load pretty easily. But, if I were you, I would call Merlin direct and see what they think. In my experience, Merlins have been somewhat finicky about the gear they're paired with. Hope this helps.

Would the DartZeel work with Merlins?

Mike--perhaps the Dartzeel can handle the VR-7. But when you have the VR-9 with the powered sub, you are, in effect, biamping. The Dartzeel doesn't have to cope with those bass frequencies, which means it should play with even more refinement and ease in the midrange and treble. I am a total convert to the idea of powered subs and don't think I would in the future buy a speaker that didn't have a setup like the VR-9 or the DB-99.

Dbk: The VR9 while having it's sub powered, still has it's woofers driven by the same amplifier as the mids and tweets. No different than with the VR7SE's. Granted the woofers in the VR7's have to go down deeper, but the darTZeel will have no issue driving the VR7SE.

DBK:

I agree with Gladstone (scary, in't?). The DarTZeel is definitely helped out by the built-in sub of the VR-9. It takes a huge load off the amp's shoulders. I can get the 9 up to some wacky volumes, and it sounds like the amp is using maybe 25% of its power. Of course, the 96dB efficiency of the 9s helps out a lot too.

BTW, I didn't think the 7s had a powered sub. I fact, I'm pretty sure they don't. That would definitely change your purchasing decision. However, the 7s are 92 or 94dB efficient, and have a pretty friendly impedance curve, so a single Dart could handle that load pretty easily.

DBK, the DarTZeel is quite wonderful in my fairly large room on the 90db, 4 ohm nominal Midi Exquisite. i would guess that in a more normal sized room that the Dart would be just fine on the 94db, 6 ohm nominal VR7.

any amp/speaker combo needs to be auditioned to be sure of compatibility.....but based on my experience with the DarT that could be a wonderful match. possibly other amps might offer more of some things but the refinement of the Dart is very special and is approached in my experience only by some tube amps.

DBK--you're asking that Dartzeel to do a lot more when you take out the powered subs of the VR-9 and go to the VR-7. Why not look at the DB-99?

Keithr, the 3.2s are rated to go down to 35hz. And in my room has output below that. I don't know where you got the impression that the speakers only go down to 50hz.

Howie; Musicians don't need me if they want to play with themselves. this is true and if they don't care how their music sounds in people's homes. Happy now I said it?

Musicians don't need you if they want to play by themselves or with others. They don't need you with or without an audience. If they care about their music in people's homes then they'll probably need someone who's better than you. LOL!

Jtinn: A pleasure to have surprised you. :D

Still no posts concerning the VR7 and the Dartzeel NHB-108 Amplifier. How does this combination sound for those of us who are married and not THAT wealthy??

Mes--did you mean postpartum oppression, perhaps! Not a bit of it, I assure you. You may need to up your bench presses, though, if you want to make that cape look good.
By way, Mike, I wonder if that sub was properly set up--if they aren't integrated properly, it sounds horrendous. OTOH, I suspect that the only way to really integrate subs in time is through an external crossover, etc.
Hooper, I'm glad that you're audophile enough to begin fessing up to your sins.

hi Keith, after hearing both the Midi Exquisite and the CRM 3.2 at CES with the Kharma sub.......i decided not to go the subwoofer direction. i never did try a sub in my room with my old Exqusites......i did seriously consider it however.

"That dart isn't near worth the money they are asking".....if that is true, then neither is the Lamm ML2.1 or ANY other amp i have heard. i might agree that no amp is WORTH $18k....but if ANY are then IMHO the Dart is....but that is only my opinion based on my listening for the last few months.

YMMV

I'd respond further, but I'm afraid I'm tied up with trying to get the sequined "S" sewn back on my uniform. Then I must alter the cape. After all,when you're a member of "The Syndicate", you have to make sure the uniform looks good. Now if I can just get this rolled up sock into my tights and make sure it stays round front.......

I'm mesmerized (by a now) $19k 125 watt amp that weighs 50-60 lbs.

Connect it to some $22k+ Kharma Ref3.2s which don't go beneath 50hz.

That's over $40k for a non-full range sound.

Anyone else thinks some of what is being talked about is ridiculous, and why the hi-end gets silly?

Don't get me wrong--I appreciate hi end gear (and own some), but I think the consumer is getting totally roasted by these companies. That dart isn't near worth the money they are asking.

MikeL--did you try subwoofers btw? I believe you have, but couldn't remember.

thats easy mike, hooper was mesmerized by the glowing red eyes of the dartzeel amp...the amp made him do it!!!

Mike:

Like the master tactician I am, I scoped out A-gon for a while first, looking for weak points and hot spots. I decided to focus my efforts on the discussion forums--which are generally more unstable than an African country. Then, like a (dead) cobra, I struck. This thread alone has bagged me at least one outright insult and several subtle digs. When you combine that with the I-Chip thread I started on AA, I'm having a banner year so far.

So, how are those Kharmas? The Tenors drive them very well--I remember when I had them in my system, they drove the Midi-Ex's pretty easily and had a lot of headroom.

I think that God is trying to teach me something / tell me to get off of the computer. After typing out a detailed response to both Metralla and Mes, i ended up losing the post again. While this is a problem with "buggy software", i'm taking it as a hint that i need to be concentrating on other things.

Best wishes to all. I'm out of here until i can get things ( both my life and computer ) a little more organized. It's just too frustrating to spend the time that i do trying to explain things to have it all disappear in a matter of milliseconds. Then again, life can be like that if you're not prepared. Besides, the weather is starting to break and i need some exercise : ) Sean
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Mes,

LOL!!!! What part of this thread wasn't transparent from the start? LOL!!!!!

My only question is how many times did JTinn call you before you had to post? 4-5? I've got a pool going let us know.

Mes, howie, hooper, any other JTinn buddies want to pile on? I'm bored with this thread. Just alot of whining and cliche slinging going on. I really didn't believe this whole "syndicate" thing but its true. Sorry I doubted those who had informed me. I had to see for myself....LOL!!! this has been great!

Howie; Musicians don't need me if they want to play with themselves. this is true and if they don't care how their music sounds in people's homes. Happy now I said it?

Bye Jonny, been fun. See you in NY.

Hooper; i wanna know how you planned all this last summer......

it's always the quiet ones you gotta watch.

Andrew- Jacob is suffering from post partum suppression :^)

Gladstone:

I've been found out! Yes, indeed, this really was a nefarious plan to see how many outright insults and subtle digs I could elicit in a week-long period. You see, I have something of a sadomasochistic streak. Years of therapy--electroshock, sensory deprivation . . . . But, oh, what was I saying? Right. Well, you've uncovered my scheme. Congratulations. You journalists are a tricky lot.

Actually, Hooper, I don't believe a word of what you're saying. You knew this would happen, didn't you, you cunning lad? Stop playing the innocent.

How did this thread get so far off topic?

Sean, perhaps you should take to heart your statement "now might be a good time to reflect on the situation". Read some of your grandiose comments, such as extrapolation of data and parts of an amplifier you're unfamiliar with and making statements on how it would/should sound. " I have eyes and know how to interpret what I see". What? And I guess you interpret correctly? Writing your not so unusual tome and then stating it is a rudimentary explanation. Such false pride. Making the comment the VSA would be "bright and thumpy" based on the equalization circuity and, I'll bet, no listening experience whatsoever to this speaker. Dogmatically stating speaker design is 90% science and 10% art. You got these figures from where? I mean if you're such a nuts and bolts figures guy who can ostensibly extrapolate reality from reading theory you certainly shed theory for subjectivity when it suits your needs. Really Sean, making comments such as these, that you can tell how an amp or speaker sounds based on parts and design, when you don't even know what parts are used in some circumstances, is ludicrous and disturbing at best, and dangerous at worst. You should really stop all the gibberish. It may impress some, the multi-paragraph quasi techno babble verbosity. But it just looks foolish. Personal resentments towards individuals notwithstanding.
Cinematic: Your intentions were obvious from the get-go, with your subtly denigrating comments to Andrew about the Jena's segueing into the smart ass comment along the lines of it being an advertisement. Nice. Infantile, but nice. And utterly transparent. And your statement as to Rick Gardner buying gear for Jtinn? Bovine excrement. Get your facts straight before making such assinine and erroneous comments. Discaimer: as a friend and customer of Jtinn, I don't necessarily own everything he sells. But I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.

Sean; my comments about Audiogon's moderation policey were not in any way directed at you (i was simply whineing); we have never had any acrimoney of any kind between us and there is none now. we do disagree on whether you have adaquate information to take such strong stands on the design of the VR9's......but that's in no way personal. i respect your obvious knowledge and many contributions to the community.

Sean writes:

That explanation is pretty rudimentary, but it gets the point across.

It explains why you think the way you do. I don't believe your analogy to cars moving on freeways is applicable to the conduction of electrical signals.

Regards,

Joperfi:

I wasn't surprised at the bickering and sniping per se; I was kinda shocked at how quickly things degenerated into a dick-swinging contest between certain parties. As for my dealer, what he does is his business. I like, trust, and admire the guy, and unless something goes horribly awry, he'll have my business for a long time. Case closed.

Joperfi: Duke doesn't have this problem for very specific reasons. Duke plays his cards above the table for all to see in a most up-front and helpful manner.

Mike: I never said or meant to infer that you were a "stirrer of the pot". How you got that impression, i don't know. If you can point out how & what you interpreted in one of my posts as saying that, i'd love to see it so i can both correct it and learn where i made such a mistake.

To be quite honest, i meant what i said in your system thread. I also appreciate the amount of time and effort that you've invested in responding to questions about your room construction, system selection, listening comparisons, etc... I didn't know if you had seen my initial questions pertaining to room modeling, hence my bringing it up again. Then again, i also didnt' know if i was being blown off because i was publicly "lambasting" your dealer.

Jtinn: Since you called me to task on my lack of audio industry affiliations and design / product familiarity, i am looking forward to your expert and professional reply to the comments / explanations that i've offered above. I see that you've taken the time to respond to and applaud Howie's criticism of Cinematic Systems, yet you've failed to offer any further insight or technical commentaries as to other comments / criticisms being made in this thread.

If you wonder why others have commented on why you find yourself in the situations that you do, now might be a good time to reflect on the situation. Sean
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Mike: Speaker design is a science more-so than it is an "art". While many in the design / manufacturing / distribution / sales / reviewing industries of "high end" audio would have you believe otherwise i.e. "the talented and very secretive audio guru's working their black magic", etc..., without the science, formula's and consistencies noted amongst specific design parameters, speaker design would be more "guesswork" than "art". As such, applying the science, formula's and commonalities amongst operating parameters is what makes up about 90% of the speaker design. The other 10% is finessing the variables into place to achieve the specific voicing / electrical characteristics that are desired.

Whether or not one agrees with the specific figures ( 90% / 10% ) i used, i don't think that anyone familiar with the nuts & bolts of speaker design will question the comments that i made to any great extent. That's because they've studied the science enough to know what to expect out of a product based on how repeatable design parameters are implimented, sometimes even before they hear the product itself.

The only real "catch" here is the "10%" that is art / magic, which can take a poor design and make it listenable, a mediocre design and make it more enjoyable than expected i.e. "a world beater that is greater than the sum of the parts", a good design and make it into something truly enjoyable, etc...

On the other hand, one can have all the "right parts" and a great circuit with a very poor implimentation. As such, that last 10% could kill what should have been at least a decent product.

The point that i'm getting at is that 90% of the equation starts with the design i.e. the consistent and repeatable performance characteristics that are predictable based on science and math. The finesse factor / how it is implimented is what makes the difference once all of the science / math have been implimented. In this case, most of the "science" is pretty straight-forward, hence the ability to describe specific sonic attributes and electrical characteristics onto it as a product. As i mentioned, what instrument radiates 100% of the sound that it produces away from the listener?

With that in mind, i'm not saying that you or someone else can't or won't like this speaker. What i am saying is that based on the money involved and the other design approaches that could have been taken, the end product seems to be questionable in both value and performance. Then again, most every "high end" speaker falls into that category to one degree or another with some being far more questionable than others.

As a side note, this is a 94 dB speaker according to Von Schweikert's website. The rating of 96 dB's only applies if the bass and treble boost circuitry are engaged. In effect, it looks like the active equalization circuitry ( fancy tone controls ) not only increases the average sensitivity, but also delivers the "big & dynamic" ( bright and thumpy ) sound that so many "audiophiles" seem to like. The fact that Legacy voices their products in much the same fashion shows that personal preference may be a better selling tool than accuracy and linearity are. At least with Legacy products though, you do get a lot of driver surface area for the money. In that respect, they are a "bargain" amongst "high end" speakers, even if they aren't anything close to what "high end" audio USED to be about.

Metralla: How do i know that this cable has impedance bumps? That's easy. I have eyes and know how to interpret what i see : )

Honestly though, much of the "science" discussed above that makes speaker design repeatable also applies to the conductivity and electric parameters of cable design too.

I'll try to keep this simple. A conductor in free space presents a specific impedance / velocity of propogation. Placing other conductive objects in proximity close enough to disturb or "couple" to the field produced by the conductor passing signal will change both the impedance and velocity of the signal.

Given that the cable design being discussed consists of a woven pattern, you'll have a conductor that is "somewhat" in free space and then that conductor is placed above / below / next to another conductor. It then hits an open gap in the weave and then is placed in close proximity to another conductor above / below / next to it. This produces a random yet repeated change in impedance until the end of the pattern.

Think of the electrons in the cable as a car and the woven pattern as traffic on an expressway. In some spots, the car can pick up speed as there is no impediment to flow i.e. open space all around it. Once it hits a pack of cars ( enters an "intersection" in the weave ), the speed of travel ( velocity of propagation ) has to be altered. Once the car ( electron ) makes it through the congested intersection ( areas where conductor cross section comes in contact or closer proximity with each other ), it can now procede ahead at full speed as there is a open area i.e. another "gap" in the traffic before it has to weave in and out of the traffic, slowing down progress once again.

When looking at the progress that the car ( electron ) made travelling from point A to point B, we can ascertain the "average speed" ( nominal impedance ) that it took. Only problem is, that average speed is a combo of both "open road" speeds and "heavily congested traffic" speeds, which equate to the different impedances, "electrical bumps" and velocities that the electrons encountered.

As to my vantage point, i'm in a helicopter flying overhead going directly from point A to point B. Not only can i see all of the changes in traffic flow ( impedance alterations ), but i've got a much shorter path since i don't have to weave around other obstacles, which requires me to alter my speed. Once again, this is why the shortest and straightest path is typically the fastest and most consistent route. I also new what to expect in terms of traffic flow ( impedance and speed of conduction ) as i had observed these characteristics many times before with both my naked eyes ( visible traits ) and by studying traffic logging data ( test results ). Knowing what to expect on any adventure and how best to deal with the variables involved can be rewarding in both time and monetary expenses. This is why educating yourself on the subjects that you'll be dealing with is both wise and enjoyable i.e. it pays for itself.

Hope this helps and made the explanation easy enough to follow. Sean
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PS... That explanation is pretty rudimentary, but it gets the point across.

Howie: I am surprised :)

Cinematic Systems, do not twist everyone's statements out of context and use it to make broad sweeping statements about one's meaning. I can do the same and declare that your statement that seems to imply that jazz musicans don't know what they're doing, shows your lack of knowledge and ignorance. You used the label/term musicians broadly, while I almost clearly defined them. Explain to me, how a musician, who has no interest in putting out a record, NEEDs people like you? If you think I'm arrogant for saying that to musicians who simply enjoy playing music, people like you are irrelevant, than so be it.

In historiography, the "official scholar" and recorder of dynastic history is important because he has the power to "twist" history, not because he is "needed". Written history has made it easier for historians, but history has been passed along fine without being written down. Are recording engineers and such important? Yes to the recording process. Music has been played for many centuries without being "recorded". It's arrogant to think that people need you to record them in order to play music and be a musician.

There's a common belief that the best musician in the world, if there is one, is probably sitting at home practicing. It's certainly a lot merrier playing music with others, but again, you don't NEED anyone to play music.

If planet Earth is near extinction, you'll find people playing music and you'll find people who thinks music is important and inspiring. Good luck finding people who think your job is relevant.

In a few months I'll be able to hear te Dartzeel in a system of a friend. He's very tube minded so we are both curious how it will sound. At this moment he's playing on some verity audio fidelio's. If it's realy that good, I try it also with my avalon arcus. Of course I'll report our findings.
I agree with Hooper. It would be nice if some ego's would be less impulsive.

Wow Sean, what a wealth of technical details. Thank you as there is always much to learn from your inputs.

As Sean mentions, we try to maintain our "more friendly" nature but sometimes things are written here that just fire us up. And no matter how hard we might try to get a point across, some people just don't get it. It's not the difference in viewpoints - it's the ability to listen to and understand other viewpoints. Only a few days ago I was told by someone here I needed a lesson in internet etiquette. Well at least in this thread I have behaved myself.

And yes Hooper, it's unfortunate that your attempts to share your amplifier experiences shifted to a speaker dogfight here. But I think it's very clear the amplifiers and speakers covered extensively in this thread have great merit to get so much praise from a number of highly respected Audiogon members.

John

Hey Andy I will be back in the game soon. Great post by the way...

Everything is sounding great, right?!

Sirspeedy,

Where can I get a copy of this book?

Thanks