This is an amplifier I would love to learn more about but with the original review here, and the one in Stereophile, I still have no idea what the sonic strengths are. Ok ok, it has great clarity. Great clarity compared to what? Ok ok, it is natural sounding. Natural sounding compared to what? Neither of these comments tell me much. Surely every product must have some weakness (other than it's external appearance) compared to other "state of the art" amplifiers.
A few months ago I heard the CAT JL-2 amp vs. the Atmasphere MA1 amps. I could make the same comments about these two amplifiers. Both of these were outstanding musical products. But they were so very different in virtually every way, e.g., tonal balance, resolution, dynamics, harmonic richness, etc. When you get to this level, it all comes down to personal preference.
Each of us has to make a compromise when it comes down to our own personal checklist as to which product most suits our own taste and fits in with the rest of our system. No offense to Hooper, but how can such a supreme product's sonic capability be summed up in one paragraph? If a product truly stands out from the competition, do we not deserve to learn more?
The Stereophile review makes no sonic comparisons, tonality, resolution, noise level, etc., to the other many "top" amp contenders. It is essentially worthless in providing value to the reader.
It's always nice to hear of a new "great" product, but unless the writer can put this new product into perspective of the competition, all the reader learns is that the writer claims this is a phenomenol product. But is this not the claim we read in every top-contending product review that essentially puts the previously claimed product out to pasture? And most likely, that older product has some strengths that exceed those of the new king of the hill. But we never hear about those as the new product has no peers.
John |
JTinn, I think Sean brings up a good point that there should be some sort of identifier for Audiogon members who are dealers. Of course we all have our own musical and listening biases, but when a member also has a business bias, it throws a wrench in many threads here. Knowing this from the start allows the reader to put this into perspective when such a member priases something they also sell.
The first word in this thread is "Review" and still, out of all the text here, only one paragraph describes the sound of this highly praised amplifier. I guess I'll have to send Hooper a Dove Bar to get him to share more of his emotions on this amplifier. 8-)
John |
Oh no, the man wants two Dove bars. And you should have asked about the ice cream sooner as I was just at the Ben & Jerry's factory last week. All I can do now is promise you the goods if and when you ever make a visit to Minneapolis.
What I really was after was what your feelings were when you ultimately made the decision to pass on the Tenors for the big D. Recently I went way way beyond my financial means with a pair of CAT JL-3 signature amps. After hearing the JL-2 vs a pair of Atmasphere MA1 amps, both products were so very impressive. And yet, neither was what I would call the "best". They both did music incredibly well. It was just that they each had some strengths the other did not. What I wanted was an amp that did what both of them did. There was a tradeoff between an awesome warmth (MA1s) and a more neutral presentation (JL-2). And then there was that smoothness (MA1) vs. the resolution, dynamic contrasts and attack of the JL-2. Man oh man, I wanted it all. And the MA1s were brand new with new tubes. I can only imagine what more they would have done in a few more weeks. And with me being a warmth/bloom fanatic for years and years, the CAT's dynamics was something I could not get out of my mind. But neither amp was the absolute winner. It simply came down to which set of strengths won me over the most. But I could be so very happy with either for a long long time provided I did not run into compatibility issues with a future speaker change.
So it was a comparison along these lines that I was hoping to get from you. You had an opportunity like very few of us ever get to compare two such highly praised amplifiers.
And JTinn, I was not directing any anxieties your way. I simply thought the dealer identification idea was a good one. I have talked to you a few times over the phone and each time you have been very polite and professional.
John |
Hooper: Wow, now that was what I was looking for! The details on your system changes, and their sonic results, put everything so well into perspective. Thank you much.
Oh yes, I love the JL-3s. I have read the highest praise on the CAT amps for many years but could not get a chance to hear them. When an audio dealer in Chicago, Brian of EssentialAudio, posted here that he had some experience with the CAT, and would give further details to people that would contact him, I just had to write him. He offered to let me visit and not only hear the CAT, but also the Atmaspheres which he liked very much and with Soundlab U1s. How could I resist such an offer.
Brian has one heck of an audio system and the sound was like few other systems I have heard; the capabilities of the CAT and Atma amps could easily be heard. But unlike your case, here it was a case of "pick the amp with the strengths you like the most". Neither product walked away with the checkered flag in an absolute sense.
I had 2 weeks to get my funds in order before I was to make the final choice. I also wanted to hear other speakers, mainly the Avalons, that I felt would be a good fit for me based on what I have read here. But I was 90% sure I would go for a new pair of Maple Soundlab A1s and the demo model JL-2 that I heard. I had just enough money to get this combination. But I wanted mono amps so much and yet the JL-2 just won me over with the dynamic contrasts and attack at the start of each note. It was a new experience for me to hear this. My older Wolcotts and Magnepan 3.5s were musical, but not even close to this level.
During this time, I was in contact with a man selling a pair of JL-3 Sig amps and he of course was prasing these as well. And just when my money was available, he emailed me again letting me know he still had the JL-3s if I still had not made my decision; he would wrap them up and ship them to me for Christmas! I politely replied that his amps were out of my price range and let him know what I would be willing to pay for my ultimate amp upgrade. Of course this would also tear into the speakers (A1s or Eidolons or anything else) fund. But if an ultimate amp deal came along, I'd be willing to forego a speaker upgrade for the short term. It was the amp upgrade that I had been seeking in the first place.....and the desire to finally hear the CAT which got the ball rolling.
A couple days later I got an email that the JL-3s were mine, at my max amp price if I truly wanted them. He came way down and I had no option but to go for this. Wow, that rarely happens! And no Dove bars as part of the transaction. I was a happy camper. But I was also a pennyless camper.
That was the end of the new Maple A1s I had wanted so much, and even the possibility of a good deal on used Avalon Eidolons. But I did manage to find an older pair of A1s at a steal of a deal because the seller wanted to scale back from owning these huge behemoths. He too sweetened the deal as he wanted so much to let them go and was having no luck to sell them. And he had put much money into them a year before with many updates from the factory.
Today I have sound like I never could have dreamed of. Surely the newer generations of Soundlabs have several refinements and when the time comes, I will get back with Brian and go for these, but for now, I am very content with how this all worked out.
Of course I have a little curiosity on the sound of the DarTZeel vs. the CATs, but I will not go down this path at this time. There are other links that now need attention.
Thanks again for your detailed updates.
John |
I must chime in here as I was the one to corner Hooper for further details as to why he made the changes that he did. Hooper's reply was exactly what I requested: an honest response to his experiences in HIS system with what HE prefered. There were no claims nor generalizations outside of this. They were reported here to be lifeless compared to the VS, at least in the context of rock music, and I accept that. We got one person's honest observations and conclusions rather than a write-up on what others would have epxected/liked to hear.
As for 600w not being enough to get the midis to perform as expected, well, maybe it's not an issue of power at all. With my experience with CAT amps, I have learned how misleading power ratings can be to drive speakers.
There's only so much that each of us can try. And after many experiements, Hooper is as happy with his amp/speaker pair as I am. We both have dynamic systems like neither of us had before, and we did it with completely different implementations.
John |
Sirspeedy: I can clearly understand why you question the comparison of the Kharma and the VS as they appear to have completely different strengths and applications. But I think people are drawn to the unique strengths of such products. And they clearly want all of these qualities in one product. So they jump from warmth to neutrality and back to warmth and to explosive dynamics to the subtle and then back. Since we still can't have it all, I think many of us have the desire to live with the "other half" for awhile and then ultimately determine what fits best for us for the long term.
I went through exactly such a period where I just loved the Magnepan sound. A few years later I felt I needed a more dynamic speaker so I sold the Magnepans. Then I longed for the Magnepan magic so I got another pair. Finally I realized that I needed a speaker with the Magnepan magic but also a speaker that was not so dynamically limited. It was driving my family crazy as they felt I could not make up my mind. But I simply wanted it all. And after hearing so many speakers over the years from auditioning other components, I found that magic with Soundlabs. And today, I am much much closer to that "ALL"; I will be content with these speakers for quite awhile. But it took a lot of time and listening to many products to discover this was what I had been seeking. Fortunately I was able to do quite well at much less than a $50k speaker purchase!
The desires for people here to have the very best or most expensive is hardly a uniqueness to wealthy audiophiles. The same applies to virtually all material items.
There clearly are some very "well-to-do" Audiogon members, but rather than look at them negatively as people who must have the absolute best and latest, pay attention to what they write about products that cost far less but have great musical qualities. Since these people have heard the GREAT products, their comments on the lesser priced products can be of great value to us "deal shoppers".
As for the sudden attention on the DarTZeel amp here, actually there has been much praise on this amp for over a year in these forums. This was long before the recent Stereophile review. And if anyone got much value from that review, I'd be mightily surprised.
And to answer your question on the difference between the DarTZeel and the Hovland, only a direct comparison, in a system where both amps are paired with a speaker suitable to both, could answer that question.
John |
Wow Sean, what a wealth of technical details. Thank you as there is always much to learn from your inputs.
As Sean mentions, we try to maintain our "more friendly" nature but sometimes things are written here that just fire us up. And no matter how hard we might try to get a point across, some people just don't get it. It's not the difference in viewpoints - it's the ability to listen to and understand other viewpoints. Only a few days ago I was told by someone here I needed a lesson in internet etiquette. Well at least in this thread I have behaved myself.
And yes Hooper, it's unfortunate that your attempts to share your amplifier experiences shifted to a speaker dogfight here. But I think it's very clear the amplifiers and speakers covered extensively in this thread have great merit to get so much praise from a number of highly respected Audiogon members.
John |
