Resolving Hum with Battery Back-up (EcoFlow) vs Power Conditioners: success vs failure
This is an updated post of a post that I asked to be deleted as it became too toxic, and frankly I made mistakes that did not settle down the discussion – but inflamed it - which no one wants.
It is a good topic that generated lots of debate which I summarized in the below to help others with a common sound issue – hum.
This worked for me, but the discussion led me to one conclusion.
The One Certainty of Audio Use Case Testing:
Before I walk through what I tested over 4 months I will reinforce one thing. This is technology use case management – and there is only one certainty:
What works for one, even if it looks like the exact same use case, may not work for another.
This is why this hum is so maddening. I wish that it was as simple “it is a ground loop” or “bad wiring” … “do this” and fix it. So many times the successes of others had ZERO impact on me.
So as you read – take away this. If I reject it, it is not because it did not work for you.
I rejected it, because something in my use case is different than yours, so it did not work for me. For others, they should try it – might work for them.
Which brings me to the trolls (I accuse NO ONE of this - this is a future statement): Please offer an opinion and “what worked for you” but keep your certainty and affiliated condemnation to yourself. If I rejected it because it did not work for me or chose not to do it - we all have choice.
I solved it for myself and am in marginal gains land but am glad to debate approaches - which is the point of the thread.
There is NO certainty – and anyone who gets high and mighty is displaying audiophile hubris which makes people hate these thread.
For trolls, please keep your commentary accretive to the discussion – offer new items to debate, suggestions, challenge the premise or testing – and refrain from derogatory comments. Things like “I don’t know why you posted this” or “you are a complainer” or “stubborn for not doing what I say” – keep it to yourself. Debate, question, test – but please lets keep this cordial and not toxic.
I will commit to the same - cordially responding to discussion - debate - suggestions or admit that I did not test that or will not test it (as I resolved it for myself).
That way a reader in this community who has this issue can gain many perspectives.
This inspiration for this post:
I had a hum (very noticeable) on a new system – only on the tube part of a hybrid tube/SS amp - for 4 months that drove me nuts and nothing I read or advice I received helped. I also had an issue with the sub due to power issues (resolved also).
The inspiration to summarize this came from this very well written comment in the OP from @gnaudio - I really hope he reposts it - it was an amazing read and made the point:
Moral of “my” story is many of these companies are small, not large, and make mistakes in their designs and in some cases their poor execution results in massive problems for the uneducated that buy their products based on their claims. I’ve also had some great advice on this and other forums but the “buy the $5k power cable and the $12k power conditioner” are not always the solution but are often touted heavily in these forums. Be careful where you drop large coin in this industry, many of these companies are not run by or have their equipment designed by true engineers. Most are very small companies. For some of us, these downfalls can result in very challenging and unwanted projects.
Reading his journey with his $250K+ system .. it made mine look easy and made me realized the conclusion above.
There is no “right way” to do it. There is no “magic bullet”.
There is only trial and error, and how far are you willing to go to get rid of that damn hum.
My summary – this worked.
My recommendation if you have a hum, or sound issue (and are frustrated) … go to Costco, buy an EcoFlow, and return it with no hassle if it does not solve the issue.
These units start at $1K and scale. Check out CES 2024 … littered with new whole home battery back-up systems – all kinds of different sizes, shapes and price points. CES video summary here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLb5FB-Rqog.
I bought the EcoFlow Deltra Pro Ultra as it has a new Lithium battery that is safer, lower heat so the fans are silent. Ecoflow Delta Pro has noisy fans as it is old battery tech.
How Did I Find Battery as a Solution to Hum? (Testing is detailed below)
For me, discussions with dealers, bad support from McIntosh, extensive reading and a myriad of testing did not get rid of the hum. Sonus Faber was also unable to resolve their issue with the Gravis VI (1800W amp).
By luck, I landed on this post on battery technology and StromTank .. sine waves and the power of batteries. Specifically, this article:
https://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0218/Stromtank_S2500_Battery_Power_Review.htm
I was considering it as it was 4 months of pain, had invested an insane amount into my system, but the price for a StromTank is outrageous (I am sure the engineering is amazing but I could not bring myself to do it) ..at which point I came across this older post:
The Audio Impact of Solar Panels and Battery Backup: Comparing Sound Quality of Panels, Batteries, and the Grid
Which .. voila .. solved my issues in one fell swoop.
99.95% no hum.
I will not claim 100%, but it is near perfect and I have entered into the “marginal gains” realm where additional effort does not yield a commensurate benefit.
For me, which I detail below, my journey was:
Solution to 99.95% eliminate hum:
Use Case:
System: McIntosh end-to-end although tested with NAD M17V2i and M28 amp also (no hum).
The hum came from a pair of brand-new MC451s. These are hybrid 450W amps – 100W tube for midrange and tweeter, 300W solid state for bass. These are bi-amped to Sonus Faber Amati G5s – 4 ohms.
Testing variables included Nordost Blue Heaven (cable and XLR), Tyr 2 (cable and XLR), and final config of Valhalla 2 speaker cables and XLRs. Final power cable is Audience 3m Front Row. Other cables trialed – generic XLRs and speaker cables different AWGs, Front Row audience XLRs and speaker cables, iFi power cables, generic power cables (I have boxes and boxes of cables ready to sell on Audio Mart .. and my useless Niagara 5000).
The amps are attached to MX123 and C12000. The C12000 drives them in stereo mode (attached to a HiFi Rose 150B .. although that is neither here nor there as the “hum” is best heard when nothing is played). It operates in passthru when the MX123 is driving blu-ray, or other appliances (gaming systems, apple TV). There is NO cable (important for groundloop).
Other amps in the system – driving other Sonus Faber Olympica Nova I, II speakers and a 1800W Gravis VI sub. MC257, MC462, MI254 for atmos. All solid state (Zero hum ever).
Power conditioners tested include AudioQuest Niagara 5000, Torus, iFi, TrippLite. Also used UPCs. The only extended testing was with the Niagara 5000 as I bought that one early on .. and the iFi but it is more of a very expensive power bar. Others were bought and returned if the hum did not go away within hours. Also trialed NoHum plugs, plug adapters without the ground, etc.
Testing process to eliminate the hum:
1. The hum is from your systems not being broken in – rejected.
The 2 MC451s and G5 speakers were new. Was told it might go away after they are broken in for 100 hours. I ran them for 100 hours straight while travelling – it did not.
It was not until much later in my testing that I had the “ah-ha” that the solid-state amps and the SS side of the hybrid MC451 did not have a hum (As they are bi-amped).
2. Ground loop – rejected via turning off all breakers but the dedicated 20AMP and disconnecting all non-core electronics.
This is where everything starts and there is a lot posted on ground loops. My conclusion was the only way to really eliminate this was by turning off the entire house (below).
Unfortunately, this is where the McIntosh support started and stopped as they refused to help beyond a generic word document on ground loops. They just finger pointed and told me to get other people to help me. Very disappointing after making such a big investment with them.
I came up with an alternative to “unplug every piece of electronics and then plug them in across the entire house one by one till the hum comes back” approach (which made my head hurt).
I started by turning off all breakers in the house other than to the dedicated 20amp for the sound system. If the hum was gone, I had a ground loop and would have to go through the one-by-one approach. If it was not gone, ground loop was not an issue.
I turned off all breakers, unplugged all non-core systems (Apple TV, HiFi Rose, etc.), as I do not have a cable box that was easy to eliminate, and then ran 3 systems. C12000 and the 2 amps.
Hum was still there.
I then – via a 10AWG/3 industrial shielded extension cord, tested on another 20AMP dedicated line (kitchen – with all appliances disconnected) and other plugs around the house (switching breakers on and off).
Hum was still there.
This approach conclusively eliminated ground loop as an issue.
3. Bad grounding – rejected.
Tested receptacles with Sperry ground and GFCI tester (Went around the residence as I was curious).
Very straight forward – wired properly.
A suggestion was made that a 8’ grounding rod will help.
Last - Certified electricians were used for wiring. This is a ~2-year-old residence that is high end. This was not a DYI scenario.
4. DC blocking – rejected.
Used the iFi DC blocker to test this. No impact on the hum.
5. You have a serious grounding issue or wiring issue. Your family is at risk of dying in a fiery blaze.
6. You are just band-aiding, you are not getting to root cause. You have a wiring issue, or grounding issue.
Perhaps. Things I did not do because I am happy with the EcoFlow solution:
BTW, before a troll posts “You are being stubborn for not doing these”, I will remind all that there are no guarantees.
The PURPOSE of this post is to share for others to learn.
I fixed it with the EcoFlow and I am confident that my residence is VERY safe.
Others can try these if they want.
7. Your amp is defective. Replace the tubes - rejected
There are 2 MC451s. Both are new.
I thought of that. I rejected as it is so incredibly unlikely that both are faulty. Plus, they are 133lbs (60KG) each – just the idea of moving them hurts my back.
Last, all the solid states do not have the issue – including the SS side of the MC451.
I believe that my conclusion that this is a tube sensitivity issue is accurate.
8, Buy high end power cables for the amps – rejected.
I am firmly in the camp that power cables make zero difference beyond a certain .. very low .. price. Read across the internet and you will see this battle raging and much engineering support.
I have and tested traditional power cables, heavy duty, iFi Quasars and in the end … bought Audience Front Row cables for all systems ranging in length from 1m to 3m (length made no difference either).
This is where I allowed my own confirmation bias and aesthetic appeal to reign. That is the only reason why I bought them.
It had zero impact. for me.
9. What if the XLR (interconnect) is disconnected from the MC451s to isolate the amp?
The hum is still there. Isolating it to the tubes on the MC451s and sensitivity to the noise in the power – versus the pre-amps.
The hum is not there on the solid-state side.
The fact that these are hybrids and that I have other amps is a real boon to testing theories.
Which brings me to XLRs (interconnects). No impact. I have Nordost Blue Heaven, Tyr2, Valhalla 2, Audience Front Row and a myriad of other interconnects at different price points below the Blue Heaven.
No impact on the hum.
Now on sound? Again, as the war on cables across many forums indicates, this is a highly contested area. My opinion is this:
When I trialed a Blue Heaven versus a Valhalla 2 playing Kashmir by Marcin on SF Amati G5s I heard the difference. Confirmation bias or not, at 1:40 there is this crescendo that feels like it is sucking the sound out of the room.
But did not change the hum.
10. Power Conditioner will improve sound, eliminate hum – rejected (Inconsistent – works for some, snake oil marketing for me).
Frankly, having read far and wide on the issues of power, I am convinced that one person’s success is another person’s snake oil as the variables in solving a problem are so many.
I tried AudioQuest Niagara 5000 (sadly I bought this one), Torus, iFi, NoHum plugs, and nothing removed the hum.
These 2 posts are conclusive evidence for me by Steve Huff – and I believe it reinforces my initial conclusion that there is no silver bullet and what works for some .. does not work for others.
Two years of hell, PS Audio P20 solved it. Rewired the entire house … and that fixed nothing:
Then went a different route with Puritan:
https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2022/11/12/puritan-audio-psm-156-is-worth-its-weight-in-gold/
As per the opening, this is a classic technology use case management. In a complex ecosystem of technologies, which leads to near infinite variables, any claim that “something will work” is wrong - the variables are too great.
Which – at the core is why the power conditioner market is so contentious. What works for one, does not work for another.
This is also why their marketing really ticks people off (including me). ALL I WANTED WAS A SOLUTION. I wanted a magic bullet! And for anyone who says, “power conditioners do not claim to fix hum”, oh contraire:
From TrippLite: What benefits can I expect from a Power Conditioner?
From AudioQuest Niagara 5000:
The Niagara 5000 features our patented AC ground noise dissipation system, the industry’s widest bandwidth linearized AC filter, and our unique passive / active transient power correction circuitry.
Puritan Master Series: (not tried)
Washing machines, fridges, computers, plug in power supplies, low energy lighting, dimmer switches, heating pumps, thermostats, solar power installations, the list of culprits directly injecting rubbish into our mains supply is endless. Effectively anything connected to the mains in your house and all of your neighbours houses contributes to the problem. And that is before you consider more distant heavy industrial machinery, and it doesn’t stop there…..
Rebalances the AC sine wave, removing all DC components, this enables transformers to work efficiently and quietly, realising their full dynamics and power range .. Star earthing plan eliminates ground loop hum, reduces the noise floor, improves definition … Multiple, cumulative, sympathetically tuned stages of purification (39 independent elements) substantially remove all interference types …. Cleansed earth removes noise from the earth line further enhancing clarity and dynamics
I then started to read engineering reviews like this one on the Niagara 1200 which concluded:
If you want to spend $1000 on a sturdy box with surge protection, go ahead. But please don’t assume it does something for your sound. It does not.
Or PS Audio power conditioning:
In my opinion, it is a waste of technical talent to be building such products. I see no reason to recommend PS Audio Stellar PowerPlant 3.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ps-audio-powerplant-3-review.39857/
Steve Huff – PS Audio P20 regeneration and Puritan worked for him.
I come back to my opening conclusion – what works for one, might not work for another. There are no silver bullets.
The only thing that worked for me was the EcoFlow and with beefy 7200W minimum output, it can handle a lot of load which brings me to a tangential issue that I also solved.
Sonus Faber 1800W Gravis VI side bar:
Of interest, the one issue my Niagara 5000 did solve was a product defect in the Sonus Faber Gravis VI. It is a 1800W sub - and occasionally it went "insane". (I have the videos .. they had never seen this before).
It would just go nuts (loudly). When this happened, pulling the XLR would not stop it - it was an internal "go nuts" and the only way to stop it was to unplug it.
They had no idea what was going on and in fact replaced it (which was a huge pain as the thing is massive) - and it kept happening. I concluded that if it did not get a full draw when it needed it at peak - that it would go nuts. I told them this – they did not even try to test it which I was disappointed by. Use case testing is what they should do!
The Niagara 5000 has a power well with a 90A reserve. While I was doing the whole hum thing, I theorized that the reserve would solve this. It did.
When I direct plugged the sub into the EcoFlow it also solved this problem as it is a beast serving up power – 7.2kW (7200 watt) minimum. I was able to replicate the issue with certain scenes in Blu-Rays.
So I just have to get around to unplugging and selling the Niagara as the EcoFlow serves as a surge protector … essentially making it useless in my config.
Caveat: StromTank.
I bet that works. It is a fancy battery .. built for audio. I bet it is awesome.
But I am not paying that price. Sorry.
In the meantime, my EcoFlow works great and the solar/battery industry (As seen at CES) is expanding massively making the audio market look like a speck of sand in comparison. This area will only get better and better.
11. But how good is the EcoFlow inverter?
EcoFlow sounds great to me. As I said, it is now 99.95%.
If a better inverter were put in front of the battery, would it be better? No idea. That is the essence of the StromTank .. audio quality components.
The Niagara 5000 in-front of the EcoFlow did not get me to 100%. At times I can hear a little niggle hum. But close enough for me.
12. I thought that power conditioners should never be used on amps as they ruin sound?
That seems to be the consensus.
The one piece of interesting advice from McIntosh was that in their reference system (which has a tonne of amps), everything is plugged right into the wall. I had several people say that too me.
This is the fundamental advice from many – rewire your dedicated line. But as the Steve Huff experience proves, that is not guaranteed either. He did it and still had the problem as it could be the power coming into the house. He also went over to his mom’s house and the noise disappeared.
In my opinion, plugging it into the EcoFlow allows me to do what McIntosh recommended. It is just like plugging it into the wall (and if I pull the 20AMP cord out of the EcoFlow, it is running on pure battery for testing).
Summary.
There is no silver bullet.
Power issues are a nightmare.
If you have sound issues, here is a long list of things to try including an EcoFlow (or other solar battery system).
The best thing about the EcoFlow? If it does not work … return it to Costco.
It worked for me.
@tonywinga .. yes I ran testing with only the amp, speaker cables and speakers connected. No interconnects to any pre-amps. This eliminated the pre-amps as a source of the noise.
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Thanks for sharing @tonywinga .. we have the same Niagara 5000 and Tornado cable (I think that is one below yours). To your point on running the amp, that is what I put in the OP - everyone says "do not put it into a power conditioner", plug it right into the wall for the best sound. I have a Samsung 98" QLED - and as I was so focused on the "hum" and amp sound resolution via the Niagara 5000, perhaps it is worth doing testing against that. |
@gnaudio .. any chance we can cajole you into re-creating what was the best post in the entire discussion on your journey? I am SO SORRY that I did not copy it before the thread went down. It was brilliantly written and frankly, mind-blowing to read. If you are having a morning coffee and feel inspired .. I for one would love to re-read it.
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The last thing you want to do is violate the NEC. The National Electrical Code is in place for our safety. You can add additional ground rods daisy chained together or replace an old ground rod. You might be allowed to add a secondary ground to your stereo system but it cannot defeat the main grounding. Check your local codes. Like ground boxes, a secondary ground might impact some systems depending on circumstances- like maybe if you live near a radio station. Refer to the NEC and your local codes before making any changes. Grounding will not affect THD in the power coming into the house. Can safety ground affect the sound of a stereo system? I have no idea- unless a component has some strange grounding system that is using earth ground perhaps. Safety ground and Neutral should check as 0 Volts at an outlet. Remember that in the US you have two 120 VAC legs and one neutral leg that completes the circuit. The earth ground is tied to the neutral leg as a safety at the breaker box. But an electrical device with a three prong plug should not have the neutral side and the safety ground tied together. A lot of information about grounding is available in the codes and in white papers. It is not a simple topic as one might think. Fun story: Back in the 1960s my Grandfather had a B&W TV at his lake cabin. Back then everything used a two prong plug. My brother and I found that if we were barefoot on the concrete floor and touched the metal frame of the TV we would get zapped. Not a tickle, it was a hearty jolt.
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@carlsbad2 fairly stated and my "too blunt" style in the original where I shared my (significant) frustration - indeed - was wrongly worded. Hence this re-word. As for learning, that is the essence of life - and would be struck down by lightning if I said I was not guilty of being too blunt and offending others at times. That being said, I intend on keeping this thread cordial as it is a good topic - and I believe that reading through it can help others. If nothing else, they get a good synopsis of things "to try" ... which I had to assemble from posts and articles far and wide. As for this issue .. it is 99.95% resolved so past the hump. |
The trouble I ran into is people not allowing me to have my opinion - as I am allowing them to have theirs - and expressing frustration. I will not do that again. For your posts - PLEASE avoid toxic statements. Comments like "it is silly" is condescending and devaluating and frankly there is no room in this thread for that. You are welcome to say you disagree. That is the whole point of this forum - which apparently some people have forgotten as they desperately need to be right - versus sharing they do not agree. But it is my opinion and experience. Furthermore, when I read about the PS Audio P20 it is my opinion (and from speaking to 2 dealers, theirs also) that I should not buy it. Therefore, I think my Niagara 5000 and the ones I tested are snake oil because they did not meet the marketing that was put out. Feel free to disagree, in a cordial way.
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Fair point. Thought about it for sure. But 1) I already have them 2) resell is a paid 3) They are 60KG each ... so reselling is literally a pain and 4) solved it 99.9%. They sound great now. |
Carlsbad2 is it possible to bypass the ground at the breaker box and run a big earthen spike into the earth and wrap copper wire around much like a lightning rod then run it to you ground on outlet or is that just considered " sparky" . How else to change the ground. Few electricians work in audio electrics hard to find one who knows in our area. |
I was using a Furman PF15 elite power conditioner on my stereo system; but not with the amp. Tried it with the amp but I could hear degradation, ie. constraint. I was using a Pass Labs X350 back when I got that Power Conditioner. I used the Furman for a few years. Changed amps along the way and then brought home the Niagara 5000 with a Hurricane power cord from my local Audio Store (180 miles away local) for an audition. I kept the Niagara. For me it was quite the improvement in sound. It was a lot of money but once I heard my system with the Niagara I didn’t want to go back to living without it. So I put the Furman power conditioner on my Home Theater setup. The improvement of the picture on the TV blew me away. Colors were brighter/richer and the picture was sharper- not a subtle change at all. I was using an old MC surge protector before the Furman. So these experiences have made me a believer in power conditioners. Purely subjective; but for me far from snake oil. I was using a Sony XBR LED TV at the time. But most people (friends and family) think I’m crazy to suggest they buy a $900 power conditioner for their $1200 TV. Maybe I am crazy to be so critically discerning. |
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It is silly to claim that power conditioners are snake oil. It can be shown empirically and through measurements that they produce results even if they didn't work for you. So yes, you can repeat that it is your special view that they are snake oil, but it is so easily disproved. And that is part of the trouble you ran into in your last thread and again in this one. |
@carlsbad2 as I said, I agree that there is a difference between two classes of power conditioners and regenerators. I do not test the regens because I did not believe it would make a difference after all my reading. And I found a solution. With regards to what I tested, I still think it is snake oil that does not do what the marketing claims (as outlined in the above) And @cleeds no. It is NOT a false claim. It is an opinion. You may disagree - but it is not false. It is MY view and my experience, and testing holds to the view as the ones did not do what it said it would. As it is MY view, others are allowed to have a view that it worked well for them. To avoid toxicity in this thread - there needs to be tolerance for people who passionately hold different views. My Niagara 5000 is a doorstop. Others will not have the same experience. We can have different experiences and both be valid.
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@uberk |
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Cleaning the power won’t get rid of the hum. Changing grounding will. Agreed. But the OP already stated that his amp has hum even with no interconnects attached. So no ground loop since the only connections to the amp are power and the speakers. Unless, the problem is in the speaker... But how could that be? |
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The OP has means, motivation and ability. I would not judge him for his choices but rather work to understand how he chose the path he did. The first round of this thread lack much pertinent information that left most of us guessing. I too, wonder if set of replacement tubes would resolve the hum. And it is still not clear to me if the hum is in just one channel. If the hum is heard in both channels then I get the path the OP took If the hum is heard in just one channel, then further clarification is required. |
There was NO hum using SS amp. So it's either the tubes or that particular tube amp that is the problem. I would simply NIX the tubes. Easy fix. There are plenty of excellent SS choices that don't require rebuilding an electrical grid in order to listen to music. I could never recommend anyone buy a device that required such treatment.
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@carlsbad2 this is not meant to be something I wish to cause a battle over but I think the biggest problem in threads like this is how you started the message above. That was very judgemental and subjective. I didn’t take @uberk s post that way at all. @uberk and I have never met, never commented in the same posts before as I usually don’t post here but I struggle with you stating how he’s learned not to jump to conclusions. It’s not yours or anyone’s place to say that. It was his post, not yours, if you don’t like the content move on. Be the solution, not the problem. |
+1 carlsbad2. Being an engineer I do not usually get along with physicists. But you seem to be well grounded (pun intended) with a farm upbringing. I remember those inverters in the 70s. Power tools worked with them but they would get noticeably hot after a bit, as I recall. I didn’t know they produced a square wave. That is harmonic distortion to the max- when a sine wave is the intended output. There was a post here moments ago that got redacted for some reason about harmonic distortion in the power lines. I thought that was a good point. I can occasionally hear a quiet hum emanating from my Niagara 5000. The owners manual states this is normal indicating some distortion on the power coming into the house. I never hear noise through my speakers. I have the amps on one dedicated circuit plugged directly into the wall and the front end on another dedicated circuit plugged into the Niagara 5000. I made sure the two white wires were adjacent on the bus bar in the breaker box and the two ground wires adjacent on their bus bar. Both dedicated lines are the same length but I doubt that means anything. But I wanted to minimize any potential ground loop using two different circuits. My house is 24 years old so by rights I should replace the ground rod outside. But for now it is not broken so I am not motivated to fix it. I have never heard nor seen a PSA regenerator in person. I have shied away from such devices because I was uncertain just how well they reproduce power as compared to the power company. Years ago our power in the US was well regulated and clean. These days it does not always seem to be the case. My experience has been that these solar farms going up around the country are electrically noisy and raised havoc on our test equipment at work some years back. We had to improve our grounding at the plant just to get clean enough signals for our products to pass final test. Mostly 60 Hz noise was the problem. I also suspect that audio quality regenerators are much more costly than general home backup power systems in order to not degrade the sound- or so we are lead to believe. Some basic waveform scope traces and FFT analysis of each version, basic backup power vs. audio grade would show any difference. Caveat Emptor. No, I do not possess the test equipment to do such a comparison even though I have the technical ability. |
@carlsbad2 Disagree. I did not draw fast conclusions in my first post. It was the result of 4 months of pain. My error was that: 1. I did not provide the majority of the research and testing I did 2. I also got into a couple back and forth with toxic posters. My opening also expressed a bit too much frustration at one vendor’s support 3. Did not address the broader power conditioner market issue (below). But I did (in the above) show just how contentious this is via testing posts The above is a reiteration of the conclusions from the first post expanding on the testing as there were many questions on testing - which can help others. Further, I added additional research that I had done (posts I read that are relevant). I added no additional testing. To your point, there is a difference between power conditioners and regenerators - and the industry widely uses the term. The Niagara 5000 is not cheap, it is close in price to a midrange but it is not a regenerator. I did not test the PS Audio regen. As for credentials. My background - I started as a computer engineer and the first thing you learn is flow charts and debugging. I have spent my entire career in technology. To me, this was one debugging exercise. As I have done for decades with teams of people. The above, which has additional info, is one big debugging flowchart. And I expanded the conclusion beyond hum to all audio power. There is no magic bullet. |
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@uberk agreed. There are some great contributors here and some I’ve learned a lot from and trust their thoughts, judgements and overall assistance. Others, well, I’ll just leave it at that and happy listening to all!! |
@gnaudio unfortunately, I could not copy it in time - I had grabbed only the end of it. The entire post was brilliant, thanks for sharing it. The whole thing was a learning - and I included learnings in the new OP. As for the manufacturer, and what I quoted. I had the same experience - when I went for additional help the response was cricket. You went WAY beyond actually finding their product defect - and still crickets. In the end .. we are on our own and if partnered with a good dealer, have some support. |
@uberk I thoroughly enjoyed and most importantly understood clearly the message your post was intending to make. You weren’t trying to discredit other’s audio choices or beliefs but unfortunately the typical “sit in front of my computer” trolls come out and put words in the author’s mouth through a defensive and personal misunderstanding, either intentional or unintentional, of what your message true intent was. Your underlying issue and ultimate resolve was the same as mine. A design flaw by the manufacturer where in some instances and systems rears its ugly head. No cable or over embellished marketing claims by manufacturers or DC offset correction could possibly solve your issue. My situation was just like yours, the manufacturer tried to be helpful but ultimately blamed it on the power in my brand new custom designed 7 figure home. In the end it was their product design or lack thereof that was the root cause. I encourage you to please post my exact response yesterday morning if you still have it, I was interested to see if there were any comments but the post was deleted along with my contribution. It would be a much better environment here if contributors would seek what the essence of your post is about prior to slagging or twisting your intent in an unproductive and almost slanderous way. I hope some of those posting learned something from this and once again thank you for sharing a similar journey as mine. It wasn’t fun but was satisfying to get it resolved. I believe my system has the quietest and blackest background compared to anything I’ve ever heard. No one could object if they sat in my room and listened. One thing I didn’t mention was the response I got from the manufacturer (their very well known in the audiophile world face of the company) given these were brand new amplifiers and after 000’s of dollars solving the problem. I asked for a return and refund (they were new) for his malfunctioning product (in my system) back and his only offer was to advise that, “ people often call me for a good deal on used or demo product so I’ll give them your name”. Crickets… is anyone interested in 2, 250 or 300 foot 10 gauge custom made extension cords…
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