Well, changes, Better Caps, the Cardas. Hell,No! I changed to Auricaps, replaced the fuses with Highend upgrades. Now, that amp sounds like what it was intended too! the key to this hold thing is cabling, and tubes.Use the cable or tubes you will get bad sound! Garbage in, garbage out! That goes for any audio equipment.
But according to all the advertising the Mark II was a revolution. What a short revolution only to be upgraded to Cardas binding posts and what not. I am sure that is why they are selling LAME...
Well golly gee willikers there has to be a underlying meaning and intent to what Mr Staples just proposed. How dare he try to win back control, of the marketing of his very own company.Tom
Breaking silence, I answered this question a week ago on a thread that was closed by A'gon. The previous owners sold many Mark II's into the market because the Mark III was released without prior knowledge to any of the owners or dealers. This is horrible marketing, and requires us to all recognize this. Dealers felt betrayed and began to 'dump' product, then as well customers. The total irony of this is that, if one evaluates the Reference product internally it appears to be a $10K plus amp, in terms of build quality and parts. Now, a secret for all those interested. I just completed an ad for Stereophile in which I refer to the NEW SIGNATURE LSA AMP, an improved Signature, which will have better tube grade and model configuration, Siltech Wiring, Metal Film Resistors, and other secrets that no one will notice unless they listen... The good news is that, those who have invested in the Signature get a FREE, yes FREE upgrade, with the only charge being shipping costs. How's that for upping the ante on service and customer satisfaction? We are bound and determined to make DK Owners the happiest in the world. Thanks, Larry R. Staples DK Design/LSA Group President
Zodiak - to get back to your original question, you have your choice of answers -
Lrsky - 8-20-05 - "Many people are selling the DK Mark II's Â…,(advertising deleted) simply because the Mark III is out".
Lrsky - 10-13-05 - "Our introduction of a Mark III caused a rush to sell, for the latest version, Â…Â…
Lrsky - 10-15-05 - "we KNOW why people are selling them. They bought directly from the factory (in general) or got them for a song, and are simply getting most of their money back".
Henryhk -- I own an ASR Emitter I Exclusive. Single greatest piece of audio equipment that I have owned. If you can live with the three boxes it is a pleasure to listen to every day. Makes me think more and more that amplification is the key link in the chain since the Emitter makes an inexpensive front end sound better and brings out the best in even moderately priced speakers. Of course the higher up the food chain in both front end and speakers the results are even more spectacular.
Given my conversations with HP, once the TAS article comes out in a few days many more people with understand what a few of us already know about this German marvel.
I really didn't come into this with an opinion on the manner in which the product was marketed. My original post addressed the question of why so many of the the VS-1 Mk II were being sold.
Daniel Khesin is a great guy who made a great product that has become available to a great number of people. He is a gentleman and an audiophile and I hope he continues to involve himself in this industry.
I've sold audio since the late 70s but I hardly think that qualifies me as any more of an authority than anyone else with an ear for good sound (well, maybe a little).
dfking, I'm happy that you love your DK amp(s). Yes I do know of someone who has one and its up for sale on the 'gon. I have not heard it, nor have I EVER said anything negative about it, I have no position or stake in that issue.
Now if you want to discuss the manner in which this amp has been marketed on this site, of which your post appeared to be an ongoing continuation, that is another matter.
You mentioned that you have been in the business for 25 years. The audio business? Care to elaborate for those few folks who have a DK and are insecure about its monetary or sonic value?
I didn't recommend that anyone buy a DK VS I Mk II. I did recommend that if anyone has one that they might want to consider hanging on to it for its intrinsic value not its investment value. My post was targeted at audiophiles who may not realize what they have and would lose out by selling it because of how the product is denigrated by a community of people who for the most part have not even heard it. Do you know of anyone who has actually heard the amp that did not have good things to say about it? Does anyone out there who has actually heard it know of better sound and quality of construction for the ridiculous price of $1500 or less? Get real.
Assuming that the only investment choices that I have had in 30 years as an adult were the Nova and the Dino, your logic might hold water. Citing examples of successful trades wouldn't have made my point would it?
Tvad:
By the way, I just sold a Dynavector DV-501 for about what I paid for it in 1987. Rogers LS35as went for about $750 in the late 80s and go for upwards of a grand today. A Fidelity Research FR1 Mk IIIf just went for over $500 and in the 80s sold for about $350. The Denon 103d sells for more today than it did new. I've seen Dual CS-5000s go for more than their original selling price. Lots of stuff!
Our 1978 Klipschorns retailed for just under $1600/pr, and are now worth around $2-2200. I think putting some cash into GE stock would have offered a slightly better rate of return, but no cowbell.
Something I read once in the Seattle newspaper: if you had purchased a home on Capitol Hill (a pricey neighborhood in Seattle) when they cost $1000, you'd be a millionaire. Well, actually you'd be dead. Your descendants, on the other hand...
You sold an old Chevy Nova for $400 and its worth $12K to $20K. You Didn't buy a $25K Dino thats now worth 100k. You now recommend we buy DK's because they will be a collectors item!
By your own admission you missed two opportunities. Doesn't logic dictate that two mistakes are more likely to be followed by a third mistake?
Actually, because of the cost of amps available on the 'gon you could probably buy them all, get a corner on the market, and someday be a millionaire! Or not.
I had a yellow Chevy II Nova in high school that I sold for $400 They sell today for between $12-$20,000. I obviously didn't know what I had.
Audio Gear is a commodity, just like anything else, and if someone can make a quick profit on a piece and leverage the purchase of a newer upgraded or more highly touted piece, then they will. It all has little to do with the intrinsic value of the item in question and more to do with a percieved illusion of value.
Many of you, I'm sure have sold equipment at some point that you had regretted losing. When everyone who really wants one for its intrinsic value has one they will stop becoming so readily available.
The DK Design Amps will have a very significant place in audio lore when the dust settles and people realize that even at retail, this is one of the most significant audio values in the last 25 years(My years in the business).
By the way, I was offered a mint stock cherry Dino Ferrari for $25k in the 80s. They go for as much as $100k today.
If you were able to snag a DK for ridiculous discount, you might just want to hang on to it. It has all the makings of a cult item.
HP (Absolute Sound) has been hinting at some amp that is going to change the world during the last 2 issues...personally I find him far too....pretentious?...one wonders what he is referring to.
It is a challenge but not impossible. If Larry puts together a network of the best dealers, gives great service, and introduces more high value products, DK and LSA will be fine. Things change quickly, and companies reinvent themselves all the time. Larry can make this work if he does the right things. If not, DK will die a quiet death. Many of us read these posts daily and perceptions change constantly. If the company gets some strong reviews for it's new products and has more happy customers, things will fall in to place and the marketing issues from the Daniel days will become just more great audio folklore.
I have to agree with Snofun3 entirely. I would add that the notion that all those used Mk IIs for sale represent happy consumers upgrading to Mk IIIs completely beggars credibility. I hope Larry will be able to turn this company around but the marketing thus far has dug a fairly deep hole. However good the engineering may be it is going to take both a very smart P.R. campaign and substantial capital reserves to get out of that hole.
I refer to "universal player", (as I believe most do) as being inclusive of the DVD-A and SACD formats, which is why I commented that I wouldn't waste the time to include them given the reality of those formats in the market. Many or most of the universal players on the market are not outstanding Redbook players until you get to the stratosphere in price.
Why a universal player? Perhaps that question might be better directed to some of the worlds largest electronic manufacturers. Most people now like movies and music at home and appreciate the convenience of 1 player. It can still be an outstanding red book performer and play other formats.
It is interesting to note a totally different perception of the DK brand overseas. If you talk to audiophiles in Europe, the general impression is that the company is very respectable and conducts its business in a very respectable way. Perhpas because the 2-channel audio market in the US is so small DK may have been testing some new marketing strategies on the US market.
Why consider a universal player for formats that are essentially dead? I have had two universal players, and have 20 discs. I won't buy more discs or another multi player.
Put the time, money, effort into a first rate red book player.
Snofun3, The product has always been worthy of respect because of it's great sound and value. I agree that Larry's industry experience can correct some of the previous marketing mistakes, but I think the company will be judged on it's products and service. I was Larry's customer when he owned a store and nobody does customer service like he does! Great products and great service equals a great company, so I think good things are bound to happen.
The LSA Speakers, an HT piece, and a universal player should round out the lineup and make DK and LSA a serious player in the industry. Again, I absolutely expect these items to be great sounding and great values. I've had a chance to listen extensively to both the LSA1s and LSA2s. I would encourage anyone to include them on your short list if you are looking for speakers under $5000. The LSA1s are bookshelfs for $1000 and the 2s are $2000 floor standers. They are a perfect match with the DK integrated!
Before you ask, I fell in love with the DK integrated long before Larry even considered buying the company, and I own no stock in LSA Group. Frankly, the biggest concern I had about buying a DK was the crazy marketing of the product, but those concerns are gone now that the company has changed hands and Larry is at the helm.
....Peter Cincotti is singing the Godfather theme in the background.
Don Staples, er, ah, Larry ain't jokin' folks. We found a horses head in our bed the other night!! Me and the Mrs. and Diesel are getting into the witness protection program so this may be the last you'll hear from me! Anyone know the best way to get blood stains out of white sheets?
Let me start by saying that I wish you the best with the company, and trust that your experience in the industry can change the product into something worthy of respect.
As you are undoubtedly aware, the prices of used DK products are pathetic, and I suspect that the DK brand deserves better than the disrespect the market is showing it. The problem goes back to the stunningly ill advised DK “marketing” campaign which you already noted as being probably not in the best interest of the company. If you’ll indulge me, I have some suggestions for the future I hope will be useful -
1)Keep those previously associated with DK quiet – they provide no value, only more cynicism. 2)Dealers with multiple ads look desperate. Does anyone believe there’s value in 9 of the same ad? 3)Stop with the Class A, (and now A+ (!) allegations) already. It’s bullshit– just say so. Smoke, mirrors, hype and bullshit are what got DK where it is today. 4)Delete the over-the-top hyperbole on the DK site – The audience here is fairly sophisticated and we feel like our intelligence is insulted by moronic statements. “The best speaker in the history of human kind –Emotiontech engine, XDream technology, testing 90% of the components at up to twice the price” oh my. 5)Be careful what you say. You’ve already made statements you’ve quickly had to backtrack on. People appear to respect you – don’t use up your goodwill.
“will interest less than 2% of the respondants(sp) on the page, if they fit within the normal demographics” huh? what? There’s no way to rescue this. Just say you were tired or something.
“Everyone, including Wilson is using MDF, and why not, is that mdf is cheap(sp-again).” Oooops.
“these F7's take almost 3 months to carve out of aluminum, with weighted CNC machines” – correction “it took 3 months to make the CNC tapes” Oooops again.
6)Make the shills go away. Looks like you have a handle on this already as we havenÂ’t seen them recently. The DK promotion campaign had to be the worst ever concocted.
I hope that you can take what appears to be a decent product and rescue it. I think you have an uphill battle trying to reclaim your market, but wish you the best of luck in your attempt.
Having just purchased the company, I honestly can't address the question...yet... I do know that I plan to put my own stamp on the product, and there will be some improvements, (yes) even yet to the Signature, which will be retro fitted to units sold up to the point of their introduction, at no charge to the consumer. Some of the issues surrounding DK, its marketing philosophy which has suffered the brunt of some ridicule, and probably rightfully so--happened prior to my having bought the company. Many things will change, some have already. For example, improvements made to the Signature--a universal cd, dvd, player incorporating tubes, using a well known chassis, rated 'best' in video terms already--a (probably two piece) hybrid Surround Sound unit, hopefully this fall. Plus, reality with the F7, is hopefully just around the corner. All these things are a grind to make happen, but necessary for our growth through customer demand, driven through customer satisfaction, and marketplace respect. Having been a music lover, and musician for almost 50 years, I too love this stuff, and want to offer the 'best' we can. We need to turn the current page of 'some' (though well chronicled) public opinion, get the 'glut' of Mark II's behind us--not that unusual, by the way with relatively new products--think VR2 VS Speakers after the VR4 jr hit the street. In some way's its a good problem to have, because with that many being sold on this site, that means that many hundreds are in the marketplace, and the name is well established. We need to be good business friends to our customers, and service them, while also offering the best products for the money. I will fade now, as Peter Cincotti is singing the Godfather theme in the background. Best, Larry
(Lrsky) Larry , since you seem to be good about answering most questions , can you tell us the difference's you have experienced with the MKIII Signature to the MKIII Reference? Also what is some of the big difference's inside unit , since they seem to look awefully close. Thanks Paul
The reason for so many Mark II's for sale, could be the introduction of the Mark III, as TVAD suggested. At least that's our guess. It is always hard to tell, but some of the 'improvements' to the Mark III, inspired by customer input, seems to have caused many to seek out our Mark III. We have noted that sales of the III, have been surprisingly fast during the traditionally slow season, both domestically and internationally. We incorporated three major changes in the Mark III, addressing the recurring requests for product evolution and improvement. First, we allow for use with a subwoofer, by having variable output, second, we improved the sound by using Cardas Caps, third, we are using much better binding posts, while, the price change was relatively minor,increasing to $3195. In light of these improvements, we feel that this was a negligable change. I seem to have noticed in the past, that the introduction of new product models, has the potential for creating a large number of older models for sale. I hope this information is useful, and goes toward offering some explanation (if there is a valid one) as to why several of our customers have chosen to sell. Then too, there is always the chance that some may have been 'early adoptors', who just want a different product now, and have simply moved on. Best, Larry R. Staples DK Design/LSA Group President
I'm turning blue here holding my breath, and now there are sixteen Mk II's including two auctions. Three Mk III's too...maybe you oughta ask them as well!
In comparison there are four Bose 901 speaker sets for sale. There are three PrimaLuna amps which have also undergone a popular and rapid sucession of their line (Prologue One, Two and Three...and one other as I seem to recall). Jolida Amps...there are currently five used ones for sale...two 202's and three 302's. There are a buttload of Pass Labs X series amps currently for sale, which exceeds the number of DK. What's it all really mean in the grand scheme of high-end audio, as far as you, the individual user is concerned? IMNSHO, absolutely whatever you want it to mean. You can speculate till the cows come home. It still will mean the same (no)thing!!! Judge the stuff with the two ears you got, and all three if you've got an extra! Make up your own damn mind. No doubt DK has a product worthy of your consideration, in whatever encarnation. So do a whole gaggle of other amp manufacturers (is that "gaggle" or "herd"??!!).
Many people are selling the DK Mark II's as TVAD said, simply becaue the Mark III is out. It's the search for the better and best, I guess. Three obvious changes, Better Caps, the Cardas,a variable output for those who want to use a sub (this may be a reason for many to move to the Mark III) and better binding posts. Most of the audiophiles I have known through the years are just looking to improve their system, and this is a move forward, not earth shattering, but only $200. more at the retail level. The changes were in response to customer input. Thanks, and I hope this answers the basic question. Best, Larry R. Staples DK Design
Howard(Boa2)- timing is everything... sometimes the golf ball is already tee'd up and waiting for launch...
Art - You are so correct... I have heard the DK and thought it was alright, not bad, not impressive for all the commotion. Not interested in the product at all personally, but your analogy to the "tabloid magz" in a grocery store checkout line is exactly whey I read the threads... almost always guaranteed laughs... "chumming the water" in an ocean of sharks.
(Nothing against DK, unfortunately for them they had a few dozen too many new user shill posts every other day for a month or two...)
I'm also somewhat amused by the DK-ascination here. It's like reading People or better yet, National Enquirer at the checkout line - "Evil snake boy is born to wharewolf-midget couple!" It's just too juicy to pass up. Anyway, I am also sure their amps are lovely sounding, but i will probably never find out for myself.
Seriously. If you are honestly worried as to why so many are selling, if this really is a factor in your considering a purchase, ask them! This is one of the benefits of Audiogon. Ask all "fourteen", or, ask a subset. Art
Why don't you write the people advertising the DK's for sale, ask them, and report back?
Yeah, you can write all 14 of them (current count as of this writing) and let us know! I'll be holding my breath, so please don't take too long to post those responses!
Foster_9, Don't stop until you are satisfied. I mean that sincerely. The answer may or may not be higher priced items. Find the synergy that works for you, and enjoy the music!
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