Recommendation for an audiophile speaker cord that is not "bright"?

oldhvymec and many others-

I had an engineer from DTE (local power company) check my house, and an engineer from my son's department at the University of Michigan (Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Engineering (EECS!)) come out and independently check my power to the house and my audio system - his opinion is that the power to my system has very low noise and is excellent, and he is an audiophile and has a warehouse-based listening "hall" with a high-end system located near Ann Arbor, MI.

I have a great deal of paper and electronic results from the University engineer's analysis - I do not understand most of it, but I can post some of the results if there is interest.

I have been concerned by this process, and am thinking about making my own speaker cord using Migomi W3104 music studio cable as is shown on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqx6VhWq9E8&feature=youtu.be

I am good with my hands, but unfortunately, this will take time, and I am pretty busy. Still open to solutions...sorry if I am extending this thread...The grateful OP

@geoffkait  No. this AudioJealousy guy is definitely not Ethan. Just a copycat. Very likely a socially awkward teenager writing from his parents’ basement 

@ruraltraumasurgeon 

You should look into Shunyata Research speaker cables and they lean towards warm smooth and will mate well with your Wilson Sasha 2. Transparent speaker cables will also pair really well with Wilson speakers.

" The change in resistance of the cable will be minimal from the ones you have described so that punch is not from improved current flow which will be minimal to 0."
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Try something you actually understand 

I have had a ton of speaker cables over the years, but I am super happy with Supra Audio's Ply 3.4 cable.  They pay homage to the vintage WE tin-clad copper cables that I have in my bedroom system which sound so clean and clear.  For the price, of the Supra wire, they are excellent. 

Oh, geez, this is starting to look like that last know it all dude. He would also say no one else understands. Are they the same person? Are they both Ethan? 👯‍♂️

Hey @audiojealousy --- keyboard warriors, pseudo-scientists copy cats like you are dime a dozen in the internet. 

Neither your lack of reading comprehension, nor your laziness to actually read my posts in this thread, nor your lack of understanding of amplifier/speaker and cable interaction in limited cases justifies your childish and ignorant post. It says much more about you, than it does about it.

So it’s either the OP is hallucinating, or wasting money on cables that cost pennies in parts. That’s the gist of what you are saying, right?

Do you have anything to say to help the OP on this? Other than just denouncing cables as snake oil. What is the purpose of your participation in this thread?

audiozenology185 posts12-27-2019 3:14pmThe change in resistance of the cable will be minimal from the ones you have described so that punch is not from improved current flow which will be minimal to 0.


The brightness/detail (and harshness) was likely an unstable amp with your Nordost that went away with cheap cable if I remember. The "Transparent" has a few dollars (or pennies) of parts to address instability in wide bandwidth amplifiers.


That detail was just high frequency emphasis ... It was not real. That midrange - upper base punch is because you are now hearing it properly without it being masked by high frequency "hash".

So it's either the OP is hallucinating, or wasting money on cables that cost pennies in parts. That's the gist of what you are saying, right?

Do you have anything to say to help the OP on this? Other than just denouncing cables as snake oil. What is the purpose of your participation in this thread?

The change in resistance of the cable will be minimal from the ones you have described so that punch is not from improved current flow which will be minimal to 0.


The brightness/detail (and harshness) was likely an unstable amp with your Nordost that went away with cheap cable if I remember. The "Transparent" has a few dollars (or pennies) of parts to address instability in wide bandwidth amplifiers.


That detail was just high frequency emphasis ... It was not real. That midrange - upper base punch is because you are now hearing it properly without it being masked by high frequency "hash".

First impressions-
1. Much more punch to the lower mid-range bass frequencies (not the very lowest frequencies);
2. Less searing high frequencies;
3. More "musical" (whatever that means) but "darker" (whatever that means) - loss of some midrange resolution compared with the expensive Nordost speaker cables, but at least I can tolerate the sound of an electric guitar.
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1: moore punch comes from lower resistanse, better flow
2: indicates lower internal crossover distortion+see over
3: Better harmonics due to lower distortion, cleaner "signal". Mid-resolution is not lower, just less edgy or distorted. 

Thanks for the continuing feedback. I realize now that the quality of the power to my house may be a problem - we live in a rural setting, with 300 yards of a buried power line to the house (adjacent to a state forest, although I doubt the animals are problematic).

So, I am trying out some pre-owned Transparent Audio RSC8 Reference speaker cables.

First impressions- 
1. Much more punch to the lower mid-range bass frequencies (not the very lowest frequencies);
2. Less searing high frequencies;
3. More "musical" (whatever that means) but "darker" (whatever that means) - loss of some midrange resolution compared with the expensive Nordost speaker cables, but at least I can tolerate the sound of an electric guitar.

Now, these have the "Hi-Z" filter on them, apparently to compensate for the high impedance output of my ARC reference power amplifier (although it is a GS150). I wonder if this is a low pass filter of some sort - cutting off high frequencies. I have no idea.

Still on the search for a better speaker cable, although with some great recommendations from you folks about how to proceed...

...the OP

P.S. - I realize that the transparent boxes have a somewhat minimal configuration of an inductor, capacitor, and resistor in the boxes on the speaker cable (see the following web sites):
(1) How to Make a Transparent Audio Reference XL Speaker Cable: https://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-a-Transparent-Audio-Reference-XL-Speak/
(2) What is inside a Transparent speaker cable box: http://web.archive.org/web/20051227043038/http://cable.tcnerd.com/whymit.asp

I think what's gotten lost is that the OP simply wanted to know if there were some speaker cables that could take the edge off of brightness he's perceiving in his system.  The answer is clearly yes.  All this other chatter seems like noise and recreational chest thumping.

I have tried many things but what you just wrote is based in fantasy not reality. Oh well. Have a good Christmas.

"  I think at this POINT IN TIME. With evidence we have gathered, the brightness of the cable was (by design) constructed that way. SO the SIZE is not in question but the design is. A different copper design worked but with "less resolution" Is that a fair assumption?"
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There are basicly two factors that makes a cable sound bright or thin;1: they are(!) thin (=reduces low-end oomph, amp can`t breath) and 2: crossoverdistortion.

The only way to get a rich, open, clean and dynamic sound is to run thick solid core conductors. From the fusebox to the voicecoils if you can, but the speakerwires are the most critical


audiozenology; you have never tryed out this. If you had you would know that it is wrong. 

Since cables are inherently “bright” and irritating in the wrong direction can we please write off the Nordost “brightness” as simply the 50% of those who tried them having them in the wrong direction. Is that too much to ask?

And there you have it.  Many people like the Nordost "detail", but many others realized along ago that they manufacture some of the brightest cables in the business.

oldhvymech and others-

My friend loaned me the Nordost Valhalla 1 and 2, and Frey 2 speaker cords. Since the Nordost power cables, QSource and Qpoint had performed so well in my system, I tried these speaker cables. Apparently they were not a good fit, whether it is my ears, the acoustics of the listening room, a mismatch between the amplifier (ARC GS150) and/or Wilson Sasha DAW, or for whatever reason, although the sound was "fuller" than the lower end Transparent speaker cables I have been using, on some recordings, high frequencies were unlistenable (way too "bright").

Yes, I do work in trauma surgery, although I am doing quite a bit more research these days (getting old). The most incredible time was working at the Washington Hospital Center ER (level 1 trauma center) during the "knife and gun club" era. Although I must say that some of my friends who worked in U.S. military hospitals in Afghanistan (e.g., Helmand Province) during those days came back with shattered lives. All of us in trauma like the "rush" - many of us raced sports cars (on the track) and did other dangerous activities for thrills. Listening to music can be thrilling as well...The OP 

Before trying to argue a point for which your understanding is poor, you may want some course-work in basic circuits. Let’s start with a simple exercise, an amplifier connected up to a driver with no cross-over. W.R.T. operation, it does not matter where you put the resistance in the voice-coil in that circuit, it will all behave the same .... shhh ... don’t tell anyone, but the same is true of the resistance of the output of a tube amplifier as well. The resistance in the voice-coil from a "speaker" standpoint is parasitic. It has no function in moving air, though it is critical w.r.t. proper operation of the crossover.

There is nothing "misleading" about the voice-coil resistance, though many, as you have shown, may mislead themselves into thinking it does not matter. It does. When you are completing your "education", you may want to look into "equivalent circuits" specifically one for a typical speaker driver. We use those for cross-over design. While you are there, you may want to look into how heating up the voice coil changes the parameters, especially the resistance, just as a side learning project. Somewhere along the way, hopefully, you will discover that there comes a point where reducing speaker cable resistance is pointless. I don’t put much faith in that happening, but anything is possible. Maybe you will even find out why there is a rule of thumb on dampening factor and why at some point, increasing it, has little to no benefit (but big numbers look cool on a marketing sheet).

Bus-Bars are to ensure equal loading across all capacitors, rarely for much else other than, as stated, for convenience and it looks impressive, at least where audio is concerned.

I saw an answer to my question. Then a complete reversal. I cannot award any prizes that way. 

ruraltraumasurgeon

The Transparent MM2 series is still very fine. Audition as much as possible to acquire the right model for your ears.  Considering your gear, the Reference,  is not a bad place to start. Keep me posted.

Happy Listening!

Yes it is part of the circuit. WOW what do you think it is a part of?
It actually completes the circuit. What's up with you? If you can't read a schematic, that is a pretty serious handy cap. You had 3 stars going, you lost TWO, go set in the corner and listen for a while. 
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You do not see my point? Off course I know that pr schematic it is counted in or seen as a part as the circuit. My point though is that this is misleading. Leading us to argue like "what`s the point of using heavier speakercables when the voicecoil is made of the thinnest 30awg thread.." 

Most of us has looked into a few power amps and mybe noticed how the capacitor bank are connected, either through thick wiring or in bigger amps through massive copper rails. And we know why this is neccesary, there is a large flow of electricity here and we wants it to breath freely. 
Breath into what? Your speakers voicecoils. 

Example:

https://macrofab.com/blog/super-simple-power-supply-ssps-design-part-3/

So far no one has given me the answer to my question, the question being what is the audio signal in wires and cables? Is it an electromagnetic wave? Is it a waveform? Is it electrons? Is it charge? Is it current? Is it voltage? The power? A free set of 3 brand new Flying Saucers with Afterburners 🛸 🛸 🛸 for Windows to the best answer. First best answer wins. The clock is ticking.

 Oh I know, but as said I disagree in this way of seeing it based on my experienses & knowledge. Even if the voicecoil is in the circuit seen as a shematic layout. You are right in this btw, circuitry is not my field, I`ve working how to do the ultimate dynamic speakers

Audio has been misdesigned since back in the 60`s when the transistors appeared. Cheap watts made it possible to ignore physics, speakers has been done wrong and so has amps while speakercables are totally misundestood. 

Guessing you have little to none in a professional capacity. We are talking basic circuitry here ...


Follow the crowd?  No, follow how things actually work, not how you wished they did.

I have owned WWP 6’s for over 10 years and have used them with numerous amps and preamps in a digital only (Roon/Qobuz) front end in a treated and highly damped room.

My speaker cables (DHLabs silver sonic Q-10 signature) worked well with previous equipment however following an amp upgrade the sound became more transparent and too forward around 2,000-3,000 hz.

I have taken delivery today of a pair of Morrow SP5 speaker cables - pure copper with no silver.

first impressions are good but they will need quite a long burn in - I will report back in a week...

  Some moore, but the years means wery little if you`ve just followed the crowd. 

Filters, electronics, speakers, etc. ... over 30. You?

 How many years do you have on your back as a speaker- & filterdesigner? 

So pretty much you are "arguing" from a point of complete ignorance w.r.t. electronic circuits. Got it. Carry on.

audiozenology134 posts12-22-2019 9:24amSo pretty much you are ignoring that voice coil resistance and impedance is part of the circuit ....right, gotcha. So basically that 7awg number is made up.
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Think again. The voicecoil is not a part of any circuit, it is the powerconsumer at the end of the circuit. 

ruraltraumasurgeon OP14 posts12-22-2019 3:24pmQuite an interesting discussion. A few things on my end:

1. My current speaker cables are labeled "Transparent high performance 10-2 10 AWG (upgradeable)."
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You will not believe this until you hear it, but even if those cables are a quite heavy gauge they are still unable to let the amp breath freely. Several thin conductors will perform like thin conductors even if they represent a low R. 
**Unlike the other participants here I`m speaking out of years of experience and not what I "think" or feel.
This simple speakercable-trick is the biggest uppgrade anyone can do to a good system, even if solid core pc`s represent a gamechanger too.

I had my McIntosh C2500 tube preamp mated to a Conrad-Johnson MF2550 solid state amp.  Sounded horrible unless you like the sound slow and syrupy.  The McIntosh MC152 and now the MC302 sound incredible with the C2500 preamp.  

oldhvymec-

The Mcintosh C22 is a new version of an old model: https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/preamplifiers/C22

Online, others have been critical of the combination of this McIntosh preamp with an ARC power amplifier. It may be that a solid-state power amplifier is better (avoiding the controversy of A, versus AB, versus D, versus tubes). 

Stereo5, w.r.t. flat response:   This is one of the major goals of room acoustics ... to achieve a flat frequency response. Audiophile eschew tone controls, but then place speakers in a somewhat or poorly treated room ... and that room is tone control, complete with phase (almost like an electronic one).

Issues with fidelity aside, most people do prefer the results of the amplitude correction applied by AV processors and receivers. Why? ... because it achieves a somewhat flat response. Even better is to accomplish it at the speaker and with room tuning (while correcting other maladies).

Sorry to derail a bit ruraltraumsurgeon.  It sounds like you are on the right path, but I would caution you not to confuse high frequency emphasis from amplifier stability with "detail". There are better controlled ways of emphasizing high frequencies if that is what you prefer. Amplifier instability would not be my preferred method.


Oldhvymec: I am not offended Oldhvymec, but I also don't agree with unfairlane either with his suggestions, his conclusions, or his statement that somehow he has the "truth" and we should be blessed to have that truth shared with us. The problem with that "truth" is it is appears based on a limited experience set, with conclusions made based on correlation, and not necessarily causation. People often say "well I figured this out from 25 years in the hobby" and that is great. Would it come as as shock to know that people who design this equipment will often test more variation in a week or month that a hobbyist, even an active one, over their whole life? Their knowledge set also allows them to better determine causation as well, not simply correlation.