I have a Dynavector 17D that needs retipping. I am NOT interested in another cartridge. I was wondering if anybody has had experience with re-tipping of this cartridge? Any stories or experiences with re tipping good and or bad would be appreciated. Who does this type of work? What would be be the cost?
This is my ex 17DS under macro lens, it’s very rigid construction. If your stylus is off then re-tipper can only glue his new tip to the cantilever, it will never be as rigid as the original construction.
Another problem is a cost of re-tip, because if the cost is equal to the cost of an original cartridge it make no sense. I think you can find 17DS (Micro Reach) for $700, and if your 17D is earlier version (not DS) then it can be much cheaper.
Chak, you frequently recommend the 17D2. As you know, it has been superseded by the 17D3, more than a decade ago or even two decades ago, and even the 17D3 has been discontinued and replaced by the 17DX, a current model that can actually be purchased NOS. I have a 17D3 myself, and it's nice but so far not a world beater. (To be fair, I have to use it more; it was sitting in my friend's collection unused for probably 10 years before I "inherited" it.) Anyway, the 17DS that you mentioned is also discontinued. Where does it fit in to the history? It seems to have been marketed in Japan-only, about the same time Dynavector was selling the 17D2 internationally, back in the 90s. I have to agree that if you love a 17D series for what it is, you probably don't want to re-tip it in the expectation it will sound the same afterwards. First, not many re-tippers can supply a similar stylus shape, and not many can replace a nude diamond without also replacing the cantilever. However, I don't think the problem would be the adhesive per se, as the original stylus is also bonded to the diamond cantilever.
Well we again are confronted wirh parts and wholes. By trying to reduce ''weight'' or ''mass' there is not much choice possible. Either coils or cantilevers as part of moving parts. So if ''mass reduction'' is the aim then those two are primary ''objects od attention''. As should be obvious the cantilever was chosen by Dyna for this purpose. But where can one get those short cantilevers? Even the usual or ''standard'' are in short supply. So even our well informed member from (Dutch) New Zeeland was forced to post his sample to the manufacturer. He deed not mention the costs.
I've just read the responses to my thread. and thanx BTW, I noticed that I forgot to type in MKII in the title. From what I could find out about the re-tipping experience from other threads; It never sounds the same, understanding the mechanics of the procedure, size of the materials and such. I was hoping for it to be a simple matter of just mailing it back to Dynavector, paying for the work, and wait for it's return, and voila! good as new. Planned obsolescence I guess. On entirely different matter, I bought the Delos, a 26 year difference between the two cartridges. On my first impressions, I found the Delos quite close to the 17D2. fast, articulate, clear detailed, dynamic, flat and such ect, ect. The only significant difference was a slight clarity in favor of the Delos. Two different methods of mechanical philosophies, the Dynavector with its short diamond cantilever, the Delos with its "pre-angled dampers". I'm happy with both. I'm just having a hard time on giving up on the 17D after soo many years of bliss.
Chak, you frequently recommend the 17D2. As you know, it has been superseded by the 17D3, more than a decade ago or even two decades ago, and even the 17D3 has been discontinued and replaced by the 17DX
@lewm Thats probably because he's reached the limit on his old Luxman TT and vintage tonearm. If he got a better turntable and tonearm he could then begin to appreciate the performance improvements offered from newer improved cartridges a bit more.
Just to note you may not be able to exchange for the exact same model. The program may just give you a discount on a DX, unless they have that model still available as back stock.
Chak, you frequently recommend the 17D2. As you know, it has been superseded by the 17D3, more than a decade ago or even two decades ago, and even the 17D3 has been discontinued and replaced by the 17DX, a current model that can actually be purchased NOS. I have a 17D3 myself, and it’s nice but so far not a world beater. (To be fair, I have to use it more; it was sitting in my friend’s collection unused for probably 10 years before I "inherited" it.) Anyway, the 17DS that you mentioned is also discontinued. Where does it fit in to the history? It seems to have been marketed in Japan-only, about the same time Dynavector was selling the 17D2 internationally, back in the 90s.
You miss the point, OP would like to pay about $400 to re-tipper just for the needle tip replacement. What else he could do with the same budget ? I have no idea which 17D model he has.
17DS is rare version with Micro Reach stylus and I paid only $450 for NOS unit on ebay, I think it’s amazing deal. At the same price Ruby 23RS Super is also great for the money and for 400-700 they are all great cartridges!
I have later model 17d2 mkII and it’s excellent cartridge, but more expensive.
Your 17D3 and later model are about $3000 and this is why I do not recommend them when the OP asking for re-tip (not for a new cartridge), they are too expensive and at this price we can find many other cartridges. Not everyone is ready to pay $3k for a cartridge @lewm
Thats probably because he’s reached the limit on his old Luxman TT and vintage tonearm. If he got a better turntable and tonearm he could then begin to appreciate the performance improvements offered from newer improved cartridges a bit more.
You’re very kind person. I do not belong to a group of posh people with unlimited budget for cartridges and tonearms. I appreciate best bang for the buck performance.
But i want to tell you that apart from Luxman turntables and over 7 vintage tonearms I have Ikeda IT-345 and Reed 3P "12 Cocobolo for other turntables such as Denon DP-80, Victor TT-101 and ex SP-10 mkII.
I don’t like the philosophy behind the statement that new and more expensive it better that used vintage gems. I have compared EUR 5000 tonearms like Reed to vintage $1500 tonearms like Lustre GST-801. But the secret is that i paid only EUR 1500 for my Reed, went to Lithuania for this demo sample from the manufacturer, sold my old rewired/refurbished Technics EPA-100 to cover the expenses.
Please do not tell me what it better, I prefer to trust my own ears and recommend to do the same to others. For this reason i am comparing over 7 different tonearms now and about 5 different turntables with over 30 cartridges.
If you think you can go and buy the latest model of turntable, most expensive cartridge, tonearm to reach audio nirvana I must admit his is not the only path to to go there @dover
Joe, Do you own an original "17D", with no numeric suffix? How old is THAT? My memory only goes back to the 17D2, and I have been doing this for 40 years. Chak, All I am suggesting is that a newbie doesn't get much help from the idea of finding and buying a rare vintage cartridge for his or herself (rare not only in type but also to find one in excellent condition with a good suspension). Maybe it's better to recommend recent or current production. It's like saying to a beggar, "I just found this wallet with $1000 in it, lying on the street back there. Why don't you do the same?" These rare cartridge bargains that you find are after all, rare. I don't know for sure what was the retail price of the 17D3 in the US, when it was current, but I think it was way less than $3000. It was touted in part because of its low price relative to other cartridges of similar quality. I think that's why my friend bought the one I own, after months of shopping and thinking. The Music Direct website lists it at $1350, although of course they no longer have any to sell. That price rings a bell. But maybe in Russia the price was higher.
Among many arts there is also the ''art of searching for the exceptional carts''. My young brother Chakster is too modest to claim such gift. But one can ''deduce'' this gift from his cart collection. Say FR-7fz, Takeda's Miaybi ... etc., etc. Not to mention his MM kinds (grin).
Chak, All I am suggesting is that a newbie doesn’t get much help from the idea of finding and buying a rare vintage cartridge for his or herself (rare not only in type but also to find one in excellent condition with a good suspension). Maybe it’s better to recommend recent or current production. It’s like saying to a beggar, "I just found this wallet with $1000 in it, lying on the street back there. Why don’t you do the same?" These rare cartridge bargains that you find are after all, rare.
@lewm , do you ever look for cartridges on ebay ? I bought a few Dynavector carts from USA on ebay (NOS) for under $500, this is a normal practice for people of my age to buy everything online. Return and full refund is normal practice on ebay (if everything goes wrong). It is not some sacred ritual or a voodoo cult, or a miracle to find any Dynavector cartridges (17DS Diamond or 23RS Ruby) on ebay. The prices are very low!
KARAT 17D was made in 1981 and then Dynavector made 17D2 and 17DS in 1983-1984, also Karat Nova at the same time. As you know the Karat Nova considered the best.
My 17D2 mkII was introduced in 1988 along with 23RS mkII.
Here is the whole Dynavector story (vintage models).
I don’t know for sure what was the retail price of the 17D3 in the US, when it was current, but I think it was way less than $3000.
The latest DX retail price is about 2000 EURO, i was wrong about $3k, but still too expensive for the OP I believe :))
17DS and 23RS can be found for $400-500 in perfect working condition or even NOS for slightly higher price.
However, the topic is "re-tipping Dynavector 17D" If it was a question then my answer is NO!
Just another (better) Dynavector model for the price of re-tipping (or very near), this is why 23RS or 17DS have been mentioned.
At least we do agree it is not a great idea to re-tip a 17D series cartridge, if you want to restore its particular original SQ. Yes, you're right; I am too old and too cynical based on past experience to buy a cartridge off eBay, unless it's from one of the reputable international sellers, like Thakker (from whom I have purchased new cartridges) or one of the Asian gurus. In my past experience purchasing vacuum tubes and the occasional LP, I have more often than not been very disappointed. Never have I purchased a used cartridge off eBay, but I did recently purchased a cartridge from a private individual who advertised on another site and swore he was selling an NOS sample. What he sent was not only obviously not NOS, it was also defective beyond repair. On top of that, he was a whiner.
Reviving this thread, as I have a Dynavector Karat 17D (original) that I have at a repair person to reconnect a broken wire. That job is done, and he’s offering to do a line contact stylus for $500 or a .2/.7 elliptical for $250.
Is it even possible to get a new diamond into the square-cut hole where the original diamond was bonded? Would he just be gluing a new diamond to the tip?
I don't know whether it is possible to insert a new diamond in the square cut hole, but it sounds very difficult.
You should ask how he plans to effect the repair. He is the only person that can answer your question about his planned repair methods.
heyitsmedusty... he’s offering to do a line contact stylus for $500 or a .2/.7 elliptical for $250.
Is it even possible to get a new diamond into the square-cut hole where the original diamond was bonded? Would he just be gluing a new diamond to the tip?
He has responded, and he reports that he has done this many times, to great success. He removes the old stylus, and has small enough styli to fit back into the hole (or split, as it sometimes is), and re-bond it.
I'll report back on how it sounds when I receive it!
I’m here to follow up on my re-tipping experience, now that I have received it back and have given the cartridge about 50 hours of break-in.
I used Joseph (cartridge_retipping-5 on eBay) to re-tip with the elliptical stylus, and I’ll see if I can capture in words the result of the work he did.
Getting this cartridge retipped by Joseph is the single biggest jump my system has ever taken. I would describe the difference as how it feels looking at a poster of a painting, versus the feeling of looking at the original painting itself. The texture, the brush strokes, the way the light hits it, all there. Sonically, this translates to pinpoint objects in 3D space, luscious midrange, a presence I’ve never felt from my records before.
It is perfectly tracking passages I literally thought were just blown out on the vinyl. Joni Mitchell - Blue, “This Flight Tonight” 2:20 “Star light, star bright” passage is a real screamer for every cartridge I’ve owned, so I figured it was the vinyl. It now sounds as if her upper extension has no limit, perfect tone all the way up.
In a word: incredible.
I cannot recommend his services enough. It leaves me wondering though...how much BETTER could it have been with the line contact? I will be using him again when the need arises, and I’ll most likely be going the upgraded route to see.
Good try, Chak. But it's hopeless. Could it be that "Markusthenaimnut", "Shooflyshoo", and "heyitsmedusty" are one and the same person? No offense intended to those 3, as they are more likely to be separate individuals who did not read the OP.
I’m sorry but it’s awful job, your cantilever is glued to the collar, and your stylus is glued. Too much glue, but this is what re-tipping is all about. You could buy just another original KARAT instead.
I am trusting my ears on this one, and it sounds incredible! I doubt the added mass of the glue would change the sound. This went from a broken cartridge to an absolutely beautiful sounding one, and I have no regrets.
The OP asked what the cost of a re-tip would be, and if it's worth it. I have included the cost I paid above, and my opinion is that it's absolutely worth it.
I think your opinion about the craftsmanship is also valuable, and would hope the OP takes this into consideration, along with my first-hand impressions of how good the cartridge sounds after re-tipping.
I would like to disclose that I have never met Joseph, and that I have no affiliation with his business or anything to gain (financial or otherwise) from my review. I'm just a happy customer who trusts his ears and has been enjoying this new cartridge immensely!
I’m sorry but it’s awful job, your cantilever is glued to the collar, and your stylus is glued. Too much glue, but this is what re-tipping is all about. You could buy just another original KARAT instead.
There is glue on your 17D2 cantilever as well as your diamond. The 17D2 is not the same cantilever or diamond as the 17D. There is no more glue on the cantilever than was there when it was new. This cantilever fits into a tiny square tube and is glued into place at the factory. It is not glued to the dust cover.
Yes, there is more glue on the diamond than what is used at the factory. This is common retipping practice. Diamonds fall out whether original or retipped. When a diamond falls out of a new factory cantilever, people blame their own mishandling. When they fall out of retipped cantilevers, people blame the retipper. The mass of the extra epoxy used has no negative effect on the extended tip mass, so what really is the big deal? It’s a typical snobbish nitpick.
Yes, you could get another 17D whatever model is available now. It won’t sound better. It will have a better diamond than this one in terms of longevity, but not tracing ability right now. That was the customer’s choice to go with an elliptical. To say it’s a horrible job amidst all of your assumptions simply reveals negative bias and nothing more. We know all about your negative bias already. It is well documented.
The fact is this cartridge at horizontal and perfect azimuth puts out an even 40dB channel separation and 0dB channel balance. Tracking is perfect and so is frequency response. The cantilever is straight and true and the diamond is positioned as a new one. To say it’s a terrible job is utter nonsense. No straight from the factory 17D whatever iteration that I have measured has read this well. I wish I could take the credit for that, but in all honesty, I can’t. They turn out how they do and I some influence over it but not exacting control. Nevertheless, it is what it is and it reads as it does and who are you to say it’s a terrible job? Nobody. I charged $250 for the diamond and $75 for the electrical repair. This is to install an original Ogura diamond into a diamond cantilever, and also the removal of the old diamond which was probably the most difficult part of this job, limited to this case. The cantilever is undamaged and fully preserved as is the suspension of what is a notoriously delicate cartridge. You think he could find a new 17D that tests as well and sounds as good as this one for $325? Keep sniffing glue.
Also, may I remind everyone, this is a HOBBY. It’s just a fun thing to do, a cool thing to enjoy. There’s really no reason to be negative about this work without having heard the results, especially since it’s all about the music, am I right?
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