Pontiflex,
if you like the Pass amps that much, it just might be worth your time to look into getting a Threshold amp. These were essentially Pass amps but marketed & sold by Threshold which was a down-market brand compared to a Pass. My brother used to own a T200 (100W/ch pure class-A amp) & i personally thought that it sounded really very good on all his music.
Another pure class-A amp i've liked is the Plinius SA-250Mk4 & it's smaller cousin the SA-100 Mk2 (I think i.e. re. the Mk number). The Plinius amps has a class-A toggle switch meaning that you can run the amp in pure class-A or toggle the switch & run it in class-AB. The Sa-100 plenty of current delivery capacity to drive most speakers & the SA-240 will drive practically any speaker.
FWIW. |
There is NO way anyone here can make a credible recommendation to your post without the following:
(1) Knowing you and your likes/dislikes.
(2) Having intimate knowledge of your system and room.
(3) You should have enough knowledge on your own, by now to have a list of components that you'd be willing to audition before even making a post such as this.
(4) If I were in your position, I would not post here for recommendations. I would rely on my past history of listening/reading/and logic.
I assume that after you've been into this hobby for years...which includes lots of money, lots of time, and a whole lot of lost assets... that you'd be in a position to make this purchase on your own.
If now, you need feedback from people you don't know and will never meet to help you make such a personal decision... well, I don't envy you at all! Good luck! |
Google it and surf the banter about it. |
On the Canuckaudiomart there is a deal on for a Musical Fidelity A308 for $1300 CDN. I've been in contact with the seller but I feel like I'd be making too much of an impulse purchase. The few reviews I've found suggest that it is (as its brand name suggests) quite musical.
Can anyone add to or comment on that? Seems like a decent price but I know it's also an older unit and I don't know what the service is like with MF. I have heard many positive things in general about Musical Fidelity. |
I've owned several Bedinis. 25/25, 150MKII, 250/250, 100/100. They're all good amps, not great amps. The thing that's lacking in them is speed. The fastest one is the smallest one, the 25/25. But still too slow imo. I don't get the hyperbole about it. It's not hard to find an amp capable of driving low impedance. Now having said that, I still have the 100/100 which needs work. It has a sound stage that is holographic. |
What I hear with live music is sound that is really relaxed. It may get loud, but even when it does, there is no "cringe" factor. I think most audiophiles would be put off with this kind of "relaxation" in their home systems.
not me anymore!! I've learnt that this is the sound that I want from my system & it will be capable of delivering such a sound when I will find components that will keep the phase distortion down to a minimum. That's the reason I turned to 1st order x-over speakers which, when built correctly, are time-coherent speakers & finding electronics that is as true to the original sound as my budget could afford. Having had such an experience you find me endorsing time-coherent speakers every time I can. I've managed to FINALLY sway a few people on this forum that time-coherent speakers is the way to go after THEY heard time-coherent in THEIR system & agreed with that it was the only way to proceed. Getting an amplifier that is as uncoloured as possible i.e. within one's budget is the right thing to do because an an accurate system will always be a true system long-term. Try sitting down in front of a good unamplified string quartet, or a solo classical guitar, or a front row seat right in front of the string section of a full classical orchestra sometime. Its like a breath of fresh air. AMEN!! That's because there is no phase distortion from the electronics & esp. the speakers. What you are hearing are the fundamental tones + their harmonics directly from the various instruments with no electronics to muck that up. Such a delivery of sonics is *always* welcome & will *always* sound right not matter what the person's age. |
Another thumbs up for Bedini amps having a very tube-like sonic signature, but in my case, it is my Bedini 25/25. I have not had the pleasure of hearing a Bedini BA-801. |
Years ago, I picked up a mint Dyna 120 stereo amp at a garage sale really cheap, like for a couple of bucks. I sent it in to Frank Van Alstine for him to install his circuits. The amp that was returned was a real killer of a solid state amp. I found that if I left it on constantly, it sounded pretty amazing. It was paired with a modified Dyna Pas-3 preamp. I listen to a lot of small jazz groups ... and the bass lines had that warm realism.
Here in Southern California, there used to be a DJ on one of the local FM stations that used to have a "Bedini" night. He'd bring his Bedini 25/25 into the studio, along with his TT and other Bedini gear. That was some of the best FM I've ever heard. Maybe a used Bedini amp would cut it for you ... if you can find one.
I also used a pair of Atmosphere M60's for a couple of years on loan from a friend. Can't say they sounded "warm," but on certain nights when the power coming into the house was clean, like late at night with the lights off, those amps sounded REAL. It was like the entire back wall fell down and the stage went back forever.
On the issue of "warmth" in itself ... When I go to a live concert, I do as Ralph suggests and close my eyes and imagine that I'm listening to my home system. So far, no matter how good my system gets, or how much money I spend on it, I have yet to hear my system, or ANY system for that matter, come close to actual live music.
I've heard really expensive systems costing in excess of 300K, but they still sound like reproduced music compared with live. Oh, they may do a great job, but it still ain't live.
What I hear with live music is sound that is really relaxed. It may get loud, but even when it does, there is no "cringe" factor. I think most audiophiles would be put off with this kind of "relaxation" in their home systems.
For that matter, most of the live music we hear is actually amplified music pumped through the venue's sound system. A lot of those are terrible to boot.
Try sitting down in front of a good unamplified string quartet, or a solo classical guitar, or a front row seat right in front of the string section of a full classical orchestra sometime. Its like a breath of fresh air.
I definitely think great tube gear gets us closer to the ideal of "live" more than SS gear, but even so ... it still isn't live.
Just my two cents ... |
Bedini BA-801 is the most tube-like solid state amplifier that I have ever heard. |
Old Audio Research SS amps {from 1989 to 1993} are warm sounding. So is GAS and Sumo.
All Pass Labs "Class A" and Ampzilla 2000 power amps are warm sounding IMO. |
i see! it was actually aimed at you inadvertently.... ;-) LOL! |
Hey Bomb, it was rhetorical. He reminded me of the S-30 I missed out on buying recently. |
Pontiflex,
Thanks for the feedback.
Great that you made the effort to listen to some Pass amps. Yes, they are MOSFET output stage amps (as opposed to bipolar) & I believe that also has something to do with the sonics that you heard given that MOSFETs are a square-law semiconductor device.
See if the dealer will allow you an in-home demo - that would seal the deal for you in terms of confirming whether or not you want to save up for Pass amps going forward. |
Csontos,
Sabai didn't turn it at all - what he wrote was his opinion based on his listening experience. Maybe he'll update it if he does listening to a wider variety of amps & maybe he won't?? Either case as far as I'm concerned he's OK to voice it here in this forum.
Seems like Zd542 has a very similar opinion as I do..... |
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Pontifex, FWIW I have the x250.5 and agree with your statements. It is a very balanced amp that does just about everything well. |
Geoff, so it's your twin we've been dealing with? That explains everything. Stick around, you're in for a treat! |
Zd542
Synergy of components is critical. And your room is always the biggest component! |
Bombaywalla,
You are absolutely correct. Everyone's experience is going to be completely unique for any number of reasons or variables and because of that I always take the council of others with an open minded grain of salt, if you will.
In regards to warmth, sweetness and pleasant sound I am using those terms to describe the qualities of a higher musical experience that incites a stronger emotional connection to the material.
To be more specific, when I think of "warmth" I think of lower midrange frequencies that have extra lushness and bloom. When I think of "sweetness" I think of upper midrange and lower highs that speak with a sort of ring or resonance. If one were to describe it in the form of distortion I suppose that they would say that those frequencies are louder or exaggerated in some form or another. That is my very personal take on how I describe these perceived, abstract qualities of sound that I felt my Bryston equipment was lacking.
To further build on your feedback, I paid a visit today to Canada's exclusive Pass Labs dealership - Toronto Home of Audiophile. Even though I knew Pass Labs gear is a little outside of my budget (for the time being) I wanted to take the opportunity to hear for myself rather than go by the general consensus and rhetoric of others. That way I could at least establish some kind of reference point in my mind as to what I am looking for in terms of the qualities I just spoke of.
During my visit I auditioned the XA60.5 monoblocks (60 w/ch pure Class A) and the X250.5 stereo amp (250 w/ch Class A/B) with a PS Audio CD player, Pass Labs preamp and Gershman Acoustics Grand Avant Garde speakers.
In short, it was immediately obvious that the Pass Labs equipment had many of the desirable qualities that I was looking for. It was very lively and enjoyable. The pure Class A amps were the most musical in terms of "warmth" and "sweetness" but the Class A/B offered a more dynamic presentation and wider sound stage yet still very musical. Since I like to listen to lots of symphonic music and rock and roll it seems that a Class A/B amp might be better suited for my tastes. Also a bit more affordable than pure Class A.
I spoke with the sales rep in terms of my equipment, my budget and what I'm looking for and his reccommendation was a Cambridge Audio 851W. He did not recommend an M series NAD. When I get a chance I would love to audition the 851W but I fear I may have spoiled myself! If that is the case then I might just wait a bit longer and save up for a Class A/B Pass Labs. |
Sabai, Do you have to turn it too? That's the one I just missed out on. It went for 1200 |
A good strategy to deal with distortion is to match your speakers to your amp, room and volume preference. If you get that right, distortion shouldn't be an issue, tube or SS. |
Pontifex, I own the Monitor Audio GX300 Gold speakers and use a Musical Fidelity M6PRX amp. This is a warm and wonderful combo. |
Bombaywalla, yes, I'm saying me, myself and I and my evil twin. |
I agree with Ralph. I have the Atma-Sphere S-30. There is nothing I have ever heard in solid state that even comes close. |
Nah, it's all in your head. It sounds the way it's supposed to ;) |
bad news: its all distorted.
Starts in the recording process and only gets worse from there.
Its a wonder any of us can enjoy any music at all. Go figure! |
04-22-15: Geoffkait
Tubes are less distorted when you listen to them. That's my consensus. I disagree Geoffkait. Tubes have more pleasing distortion than SS. Both SS & tube s can be made linear. And a "consensus" is a collective opinion. So, are you saying that 3 of you & yourself & your alter-ego collectively endorse tubes?? ;-) ;-) |
Pontifex,
I'm pretty stupid so I don't understand what you mean by "warmth, sweetness and overall pleasant sound."??
I've tracked this thread over the several days it's been active & I see a lot of chatter & recommendations. it's great to see that so many members want to help but you'll always get a recommendation of a particular amp from a person who has that amp - it's inevitable. The problem is that you don't know this person (despite the fact that he is really trying to help for which I can see you are rightly appreciative) & you don't know his music tastes & you don't have his ears & neither do you have his music listening room. So, there are too many variables for you to blindly accept the recommendation.
It would be great for us to know what you mean by "warmth, sweetness and overall pleasant sound." as it will help all of us provide better direction.
From his vast experience, Ralph @ Atmasphere, as usual, has given you some wise words to reflect on. As Ralph has already pointed out - "warm" & "bright" are 2 different forms of distortion; one preferred & the other not. But make no mistake, they are forms of distortion. I don't think you want to spend money on an amp that distorts - long-term this is the wrong way to go about your goal.
I dont agree fully with Ralph that *all* SS amps are high on distortion - there are many that are not but it is true that these few amps are not cheap. There are some less expensive SS amps that are very linear sounding but, yes, they're few & far between. In terms of linearity, tubes does win more often than not since our human ears prefer even order harmonics over odd order harmonics. So, it's not a totally losing game indulging in SS amps. Of course, my opinion & my experience.
You've already provided a list of your equipment & also your budget. Do let us know what you mean by "warmth, sweetness and overall pleasant sound." as it means different things to different people. Thanks. |
LSR&D is the company logo comprising the initials of 4 partners headed up by the late Dr. Marshall Leach at Georgia Tech University in the 80's. Bickering and in-fighting led to the company's early demise so few examples exist. Dr. Leach did offer the amp in kit form and there is a substantial following on DIY Audio. Lots of info on the net, re: The Leach Amp/ The Leach Superamp/ LSR&D. |
A lot of musical instruments produce music in the 100-300 hz range or so typically identified as the general range for "warmth" so it is not a surprise to hear that in live music or in a good hifi reproduction. The devil is all in the details. Some music may have little or no warmth at all and that is perfectly natural. |
Pontifex,I like your speakers,from what I remember going up to the Golds you will have more detail and treble will be extended,so an amp with a bit of warmth may be just what the doctor ordered . At your budget,you have some great choices,that should keep you happy for a long time.As I said ,i am still kicking myself for selling my Conrad Johnson SS amp,it did the 3-D ,depth,room filling soundstage,and warmth like no other amp i have had.It is like you can reach out and touch the notes as they float in the air around you.Only time I've had that silly happy grin. I may get one of the newer SS amps they came out with,when budget allows.Whatever you decide ,I hope it makes listening a joy. |
What is LSR&D ? I have to agree with Ralph that live unamplified music does have warmth.Depends on variables,as to the degree of warmth.I do love harmonics as well.I don't give a hoot as long as it sounds good. If loving you is wrong,,,I dont wanna be right,,, |
I've owned a Perreaux 2150B and several Acoustat TNT200 and 120. All pure mosfet so I have some insight into the warm/tubey/mosfet sound and imo it's nothing more than a softening of leading edge transients. In effect resulting in what to me sounds like a bit of IMD or TIM. Imo BJTs sound better because they're effectively faster even though the device itself may not be. Whether this is deliberate or not, I don't know but I find BJTs to have better, more refined low level resolution. I think once you reach a sufficiently high level of fidelity, the novelty effects disappear as a matter of course. If the goal is reproduction of the signal, then the last thing you want is to be able to pinpoint the topology of the amp, no? |
Quite the discussion I have sparked!
I'm looking at a budget of around $2000 CDN but if I find a smoking hot deal on a Pass Labs piece I could see myself breaking the bank perhaps up to $4000 or so.
My speakers are Monitor Audio RX6's and before those I had some Axiom M80's. I replaced my Bryston 7B SST2's with the NAD C355bee but I still use my BP25 as a preamp. My transport is a Cambridge 751BD and my DAC is a Bryston BDA-1.
The reason for switching up my amps and speakers was because I moved across the country and downsizing was ultimately inevitable- though I quite welcomed the opportunity to try something different.
I absolutely love the RX6's and for that reason I can see myself moving further up the line to the Gold GX300's in the somewhat near future. So, I should definitely take that into consideration when selecting an amp. Thanks for all the feedback! |
Tubes are less distorted when you listen to them. That's my consensus. |
Csontos,
"Fact is their is consensus that tubes are distortion for the most part."
Is this a secret consensus? Where can I look something like that up for myself? |
Regarding SS amps, ones that use MOSFETs are often cited as having a warmer sound. My limited experience with these supports that I think. Tandberg gear was known for MOSFET use I believe and the Tandberg sound was always a tad towards being warm sounding. Tandberg tr2080 was the warmest sounding amp I have owned personally. It was very sweet sounding as older SS gear goes. |
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Mapman wrote,
"Its all semantics but warm can only refer to an exaggeration at certain frequencies which by definition is not accurate."
Well, not really the definition. Presence is close as a synonym. Cold and distant and uninvolving are related and are antonyms of warm. IMHO opinion of course. |
"What I find is that warmth is more often the thing I hear rather than bright and harsh, the latter being a common hallmark of solid state, hence the existence of this thread :)"
The other possibility is neither warm nor bright and harsh. I'd call that more "neutral".
Some SS amps are more neutral or less bright than others. Same true with tube amps. I don't think either wins categorically anymore these days in general though perhaps that used to be true to a greater extent. The technology on the other side of the fence from tubes is anything but stagnant.
Also neutral may be considered better technically but not all like the same sound best, even neutral. Just like most people but not all like vanilla ice cream and some prefer others with more distinct flavor.
When it comes to sound, I am in the camp that thinks neutral is always better, however it is achieved. |
Ralph, thank you for your response. There is never a time I don't learn from you or Al. I haven't mentioned the issue of reliability. But I do remember a recent post on another thread where you pay respect to a particular ss amp. I expressed my opinion on how I believe tubes set themselves apart, namely heat. I could very well be wrong. It appears the capacitance issue can be overcome to a satisfactory degree,'different strokes' as the saying goes. However, you've pointed out that tubes are far more versatile in arriving at one's design goals. If I can arrive at life like spl, speed/transient performance, extension, bass definition, ultra flat FR/linearity, etc., iow perfect neutrality more so with tubes, then that's what I would prefer. I'm still kicking myself for having second thoughts long enough to miss out on acquiring one of your OTLs on CAM recently for very reasonable cost. I'm certainly not averse to considering tubes in order to take advantage of sota sq. I have as I've mentioned two pairs of tubed monos I really like. But more so as a novelty rather than serious long term listening just because their short comings are too blatant. They are fun but not exciting. I wish I could afford to put your designs through the wringer! |
Csontos, I play in a band and have played sting bass in orchestras since I was in 7th grade. Not that that makes me an expert, but I do attend a lot of concerts. I agree that concerts with amplification are anything but warm.
But if I go to an unamplified concert, I like to close my eyes and imagine listening to a stereo. Try it sometime- and critique what you hear- is it too bright, too warm? What I find is that warmth is more often the thing I hear rather than bright and harsh, the latter being a common hallmark of solid state, hence the existence of this thread :)
Tubes BTW do not have an emphasis on a certain range of frequencies. A lot depends on the amp!! What is commonly associated with the 'tube sound' is the 2nd harmonic, which does not have to exist in a tube amp as the harmonic distortion signature is highly dependent on the topology of the amplifier circuit. This is true whether tube or solid state. If you recall, triodes are universally regarded as highly linear; moreso than most semiconductors, so where does that 2nd harmonic come from? It comes from the topology.
For example if you design to be fully differential and balanced, the primary harmonic product will be the 3rd harmonic, not the 2nd.
Transistors have a non-linear capacitive aspect that is multiplied by the current through the device at their junctions. This property is well-known, for example there is a device that is used for tuning FM radios known as a varactor diode that takes advantage of this capacitance.
This aspect makes it difficult to avoid odd ordered harmonic distortion and despite large amounts of negative feedback, will remain present in solid state amps where it is absent in a tube amp. Because our ears use those harmonics as loudness cues, they are more sensitive to them than state of the art test equipment- we can hear their presence quite easily while they are hard to measure with test gear.
So as I see it, the point of this thread is what amps are lacking this particular distortion while also being solid state? The answer is 'none' and is part of the reason the tubes/transistor debate has raged in the audiophile world longer than the existence of the Internet.
Audio is often a set of compromises, in engineering parlance certain aspects are sometimes deemed 'negligible' when actually they are not. Trace amounts of odd ordered harmonic distortions are an example.
So again- to Pontifex, consider a tube amp- they are not as unreliable as you suggest in your initial post. You are going to be chasing the Holy Grail for a long time in the solid state world if you do not. So if you really can't do a tube amp, just accept that such will be the case and Good Luck! |
Its all semantics but warm can only refer to an exaggeration at certain frequencies which by definition is not accurate.
If one uses the term warm to describe something that isn't, well, then all bets are off. Its just words. |
I'm surprised you haven't taken Ralph to task with this premise. Or should I say I'm not? Fact is their is consensus that tubes are distortion for the most part. Also that the best of both converge sonically...to neutrality. Enter LSR&D. How do YOU define neutrality as it applies to audio? Btw, I do have ears and do come to my own conclusions but affirmation is sometimes also rewarding. Again, to each his own. Have fun.
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"04-21-15: Csontos
With all due respect Ralph, I am not aware of a 'warmth associated with real music(and tubes)' consensus. My take on it is simply a subjective preference over accuracy."
I don't see how you can say one component is more accurate than another. How do you know the "warm" amp isn't more accurate? There's no reason why it can't be. |
There is usually nothing particularly "warm" about live music.
Its more a technical artifact of hi fi reproduction when there is an emphasis in the 100-300 hz or so frequency range (upper bass).
I can find it inviting at first but eventually wears out its welcome in comparison to more balanced timbres. |
IMP the Clayton amps are never brittle, or hard sounding. I've heard them in a variety of systems and they combine the best qualities of SS and tubes. Compared to many SS offerings I suppose that makes them a "warmer" amp. They're expensive, but are better than most others that are more expensive. |
With all due respect Ralph, I am not aware of a 'warmth associated with real music(and tubes)' consensus. My take on it is simply a subjective preference over accuracy. I find real music to resemble a good, fast, flat frequency response of ss much more than typical tube sound. A no holds barred, pull no punches sound, right? Regardless of whether I prefer it or not. Which incidentally I do. It just can't have any detectable IMD/TIM. For example like my LSR&D amps. Very extended but also sweet. Nothing cold about them, just very linear. To each his own. |
Hegel H200 seems pretty warm to me. |
