"Against design"

Have a look at dc10audio.com

Have a look at dc10audio.com

Interesting notion, but I'd read it slightly differently. I think people want cutting edge tech for a high five/six figure price tag and think that exotic materials and complex curves demonstrate that kind of technology. It's not that they're ugly, per se - it's that they're hard to manufacture.

That formula might inevitably make for "ugly" speakers, but I doubt that that's not the important point. I personally think that the Ferrari Enzo is hardly beautiful, but I understand why people find the shape appealing. Same with MBL, Vivid Giya, etc., etc.

BTW, in the high touch vs high tech battle of aesthetics, high touch still has its representatives. In addition to Daedelus, think Sonus Faber, Dali or ESP. They are definitely fewer in number, but they're out there.

Just one viewpoint for you.

Its all much nicer looking than what most would get at Walmart.

Its all relative.

Not sure exactly what is being complained about.

Markets speak for themselves in regards to what sells.

Question: why do so many box/driver speakers use MDF instead of real hardwood?

why do so many box/driver speakers use MDF instead of real hardwood?

See the answers by Lou Hinkley of Daedalus Audio and Jonathan Weiss of Oswalds Mill Audio ("weisselk") in this thread.

The main reasons seem to be (a)cost, and (b)difficulty of manufacture (assuming that the goal is manufacture to a high standard). Also, I would expect, lack of the necessary expertise in many cases.

Regards,
-- Al

One other negative as far as hardwood goes (especially if you are manufacturing in significant numbers) is the issue of reliably sourcing consistent quality material. MDF has consistent physical qualities and is readily sourced, a manufacturer can always count its availability and predictable pricing and sourcing. Hardwood is more variable (knots, warps, moisture content, color, and density) from board to board and it isn't always certain that a particular wood is available in the quality you want at the price you want to pay.

Or you can of course use both hardwood and MDF :-)

PBN Audio

Good Listening

Peter

So there's really no sonic improvement to be gained by using hardwood?

So there's really no sonic improvement to be gained by using hardwood?

See the post by Lou Hinkley of Daedalus at the link I provided earlier. I would not consider your statement to be a precise summation of what he said.

Regards,
-- Al

I did see - and read - the link. Hinkley's statement was guarded at best and dealt more with bracing and overall construction rather than pure sonic benefits - other than his own opinion about hardwood.

I'd tend to believe that hardwood WOULD perform better, but that also could be bias.

And thank you for those links, by the way.

A good overall design that fits the listeners needs best will perform best, hardwood or not.

Martykl --

Thanks for your input.

There may be an interpreting angle in Mr. Weiss' (and the rest of us) assessment of design and what makes it beautiful or ugly, but notwithstanding he equates the more typical box "designs" with their more expensively priced and "eccentrically" designed siblings as being ugly at least partly with the a scientific reference: he sees an inverted relationship in what dictates the design of high-end speakers when comparing his own products to that of the more general "competition." As he points out:

Back to OMA, I’ve always tried to explain to people who ask how we design things, that the design process starts (and ends) with the acoustic engineering. We begin by modeling a prospective speaker based on what we want it to do- how big must the horn or horns be to accomplish their task? How will lower frequencies be handled, and how low will we go? This process is devoid of any aesthetic considerations, it’s pure engineering. Later, our industrial designer, David D’Imperio, works with us to maintain the engineering integrity of the design while making it look like something you want in the middle of your living room, not hiding in the corners.

The high end audio industry has been successful at convincing a very small audience that they should want things that are baffling to everyone else. To reverse the downward spiral that describes the high end industry today requires a rethinking of both its audio engineering and its industrial design.

The general problem with high end audio speaker design would then be assumed - not wrongly, I find - as differing (i.e.: baffling) design manifestations that dictate functionality as part of a marketing tool to promote and distinguish ones product - not vice versa.

Coupled with this is the core aspect of sheer size, a banality from one perspective perhaps when choosing speakers insofar sound quality is paramount (as in: if great sound requires large speakers, then so be it), but something that is likely one of the deciding factors why so few would buy a pair of the larger OMA speakers - or other larger, and beautifully furnished speakers; their homes (and spouse) dictate audio equipment, not least its size, and so sound, yet again, becomes secondary.

What I like about (in this case) OMA speakers is that they're large and exude a natural, organic quality with no excuse for functionality; what follows aesthetically is grounded in audio engineering and the catering to what emulates live acoustic, real-performed music (or so I suppose). Looking at the materials used - oiled hardwood, solid aluminium, and slate - one can indeed almost smell them.

(to reiterate)

To reverse the downward spiral that describes the high end industry today requires a rethinking of both its audio engineering and its industrial design.

...as well as an overall mentality among audiophiles, so to accept these changes, to break with established and conventional molds of speaker design, perhaps in part in grounding ones reference more highly to live acoustic music and, dare one say it, listening more with the body than the mind.

Mr. Weiss' follow-up to "Against design" - "Art vs. furniture:"

... audio design is much like furniture, in that the relationships between form and function are easily convoluted. We live with these things in our homes, surrounded by other domestic furnishings. Because of that, we project the same codes that inform our furniture onto our audio equipment. Yet we like to think the form of something like a loudspeaker, follows from its function.That is not necessarily so. Virtually all box type speakers have made terrible engineering (read-function) compromises to fit the expectations of what the manufacturers think the consumer wants. They then try and decorate and fancify these boxes so they blend into the disaster that is most modern domestic interiors. The fact that sound comes out of these boxes at all is really just an alibi for their form. In fact, many loudspeakers are placed in ceilings and walls in affluent homes, where they exist (barely) only as function. The form is simply gone. This gets around the issue of how to deal with the loudspeaker as an object, at least until you have to listen to it coming out of the ceiling.

http://oswaldsmillaudio.com/blog/

Hard to advance the art of loudspeaker design building the same old 2 ways and slim towers the market demands.

Interesting perspective by the OP. I thought the more modern designs were in part a response to what was previously found unattractive in older speaker designs. Some of the older speaker designs were of some necessity due to the amplification technology of that era.
Some years ago, but much closer to today than some of the previous designs, Thiel's speakers were actually praised in an article in Architectural Digest.
I think that the promotion and wider use of multiple speakers for home theatre use might have had an influence on many more recent designs.
I've often heard that the use of MDF; besides offering costs benefits, might be better for the environment and perhaps more importantly was better at reducing stored energy. I wonder if the use for an all solid wood speaker might be driven to appeal to the consumers desire for pride in ownership? All things considered the use of MDF with solid veneers might be the value leader. Though the use of alternate materials such as fiberglass, carbon fiber, aluminum, etc., is interesting to me, I use speakers with MDF with solid wood veneers and the speakers that I have been considering are the same. If my budget permitted the German Physiks in carbon fiber finish might be mine.

Phusis, thanks for the OMA link. The speakers and Stands sure look very impressive and sculpture like and meticulous . Kudos to the designer in breaking the mold and going 'against design'. I would be very interested to know what it costs and more importantly how do the speakers sound!

A new blog from Mr. Weiss titled "Stereo as furniture:"

Today even manufacturers of $100,000 speakers, which tend to be large, go to great lengths to make the front baffle of their speakers as narrow as possible- the result is tall, skinny and deep. This is a very bad idea acoustically speaking, but it does address the unspoken fear in the industry of people not wanting to look at a speaker in their living room – at all. They are in effect trying to make a very expensive thing disappear, which is sort of insane. This is the space audio equipment occupies in our culture today, guilty fetish objects, trying to disguise themselves because no one loves them. A pity.

http://oswaldsmillaudio.com/blog/