Primaluna and Rogue

Just throwing a comment in the mix....I too was once looking at Rogue, Prima Luna, Leben, and Line Magnetic Ended up going with Raven Audio. On the less expensive end of that group. Reviews made it sound crazy good for the money. Unfortunately I'm too far away from any shop to hear stuff so I'm review dependent. To not share how fantastic this Raven Nighthawk is is to feel selfish. Maybe its just my limited exposure. (Only had Crown, McIntosh, Luxman, and Cambridge Audio previously) BUT I HAVE NEVER HEARD ANY AMP SO REAL LIVE HUMAN ENGAGING...(sorry for caps, but i get excited about great stereo kit) I feed it with the Audiolab 6000CDT and use the NuPrime DAC 9 SE with Klipsch Lascalas II. Pure musical euphoria...Tellurium Q interconnects. What's not to like? SVS sub SB2000 cause Klipsch needs 50 hz and below help in a serious sense. Dark, bright, light, dense anything one wants just rearrange the tube line up and surprise! New sound, this hobby is so fun! 

Rogues have more power because they run the crap out of the tubes.  The PrimaLunas do have superior output transformers which take the load off of their tubes which causes them to last longer..

Another reason for my suggesting an integrated is to avoid a preamp/amp mismatch .
I can't speak to all of your choices but in regards to the Primaluna pieces , they have an unusually high impedance requirement .
This can be a problem when you start mixing companies components . Some will play nice with each other and some will not .
This can be a reason why a user of a particular piece will denegrate it but many others will hold that piece in high regard .

Something else to consider .

I have a Rogue Eight-Eight Magnum power amp. My other basic components are Manley Shrimp preamp and Rogue Stealth phono preamp. My Rogue components are quality gear and sound nice.
Though I haven't heard the Primaluna, I'm sure you can't go wrong with the M150s or something in the equivalent price range by Primaluna. If your speakers retail for over $10,000 you should be able to budget $1000-$2000 for your preamp and then again the same for the amp (look for used!) and you'll be happy.
If I were you I'd select a couple different options and await whichever becomes available and pull the trigger.
You might also consider the Manley Preamp, by the way. I've been very happy with it.
I also listen to lots of different styles of music myself, including poorly recorded music. I can't emphasize enough how much speaker placement can help adjust the sound from your listening position. If you can find one of the very rare tube pre-amps available with tone control (treble, bass) you can tune things even more to your liking.

Mordante, integrateds are not out of the question. If I can get a a quality integrated with the power to suit my speakers, I would have no problem with that. My only concern with tube integrateds is that I really don't know how much tube power would be enough to properly drive the Nolas, and many of them in my price range seem to have a rating of 60 watts or less. So I can use some feedback in that area if you have some suggestions. However, I have read some positive reviews on the Cronus, Primaluna integrated, Vincent, Primare and Musical Fidelity, but I'm still researching.

Regarding tubes, one of the primary reasons that I am considering them is just about everything I read about Nola/Alon speakers, from owners and reviewers alike, the overwhelming sentiment has been that these speakers prefer or sound best, or have been voiced with tube amplication. I've read that the owner of Nola personally uses the ASL Hurricane. So that is my reason for looking into tubes, and I believe that going with separates, a tube preamp and ss poweramp, may give me the best of both worlds.

Saki, I hope the above addressed some of your questions. Regarding budget, it really depends what I can get on the used market. If I can get a quality power amp for a $1,000 or less, I would strongly consider buying a new Rogue Perseus or some other tube pre with a phono stage. That said, a pair of Rogue M150's at the right price would find a new home in my system, and I would just have to wait and save for the preamp at that point.

Ok , if you do not have a particular type of sound in mind then you should address what amps work well with your speakers . In this instance , some will be better than others .

What amp does the manufacturer use to design their speakers ? And again , what do other owners of your speaker have success with ?

I would also recommend that you start with an integrated amp . They are cheaper and easier to move in and out .

I seem to remember one review for the Viper II , the manufacturer stating that he liked the ASL Hurricane . I am not sure how reliable they are but it could be a starting place . Or if you like the Rogue then try their integrated .

Start some place and then make moves from there . Just watch out for that merry-go-round ride !

Good luck .

Hawk28.

May I ask why you want a pre/power combi. Is there a reason that integrated amps are out of the question. Also do you really want tubes? Can the amps also be a combo say tube pre ss power.
The my last remark, what is you budget?

A few weeks ago me and a friend compared some amps. Integrated "budget" amps. A prima luna proglogue 2, Sugden A21a and a LUA 4040C. For me it was
1 Sugden
2 Prima Luna

3 LUA

I think with a nice class A amp you can get the musicality that some people miss with SS amps and the power/reliabilty of SS amps. My friend didn't agree and bougth the Prima Luna. To me the Prima Luna's bass was less tight but it is a musical amp.

I hope you can make any sence of my post.

Thanks for your responses. While I'm not ignoring the issues brought up about where products are being built, my bigger concern is great sound and quality build, and that's the end of my thoughts on that topic.

Back to the original topic. Saki, the problem is I'm not necessarily looking for a particular sound. The reason for this is quite simple, the sound of the music I listen to varies greatly. For example, while listening to Fusion, the sound has to have impact; attack and immediacy with timing and pace, and full and impactful, but accurate bass. On the other hand, I like my vocals and highs to have a lot of air, sweetness and expression. I like to feel the soul and emotion of a singer through their voice. I want to be able to feel that. Bottom line, my gear has to be able to portray what's on the recording. I understand this is very difficult to acheive as various gear is voiced quite differently to achieve a particular sound. But that's why I got the Nolas, I like their airy presentation.

I just need a pre/power combo that will give me the slam I need when its called for, as well as the delicacy that I need when a recording calls for it.

Is this too much to ask? Maybe, but isn't this hobby about trying to attain that sound YOU seek? That's the fun part, I believe.

Getting back to the original post...I think that you should heed the above advise and actually listen to each , on your speakers .

For my take - I think that Rogue and Primaluna are different sounding pieces . One is not 'better' than the other , just different .

You might be better served by describing what type of sound that you are looking to approximate ? Or ask other owners of your speakers what amps that they like and why .

Good luck .

But how do you determine build quality? The place/country of production says nothing. Great and crappy products may even come from the same factory. So unless you open the gear and you are an expert on the field it is hard to say how well something is made.
I have Japanese, German, US and Dutch brands in my system, but I have no idea where those parts have been made, nor do I care.

Buy the equipment with the best sound to your ears. It should never matter if equipment was made in China, in the US, or if it was made by dancing dwarfs. Those companies try to sell you something and a company that doesn't advertise doesn't automatically make better products. All companies worldwide want to make a profit, and some will go to greater length to achieve a profit and some will be happy accept less of a profit.

But in the end it doesn't matter, we all get the product we deserve. It may no be what we want.

Sorry for my rant, but I grow tired of comparing products not on their merits but one who, where, etc build them. If we keep doing that we will all drown in our own shit faster then you can say "made in the USA".

Interesting thoughts, Viridian. Personally, I'm not as familiar with Quicksilver as I am with the other two companies. And while this is not directed at you, I learned about Rogue through a dealer recommendation and audition. Primaluna, I admittedly learned about through advertising and reviews here on the 'Gon. That said, I'm open to suggestions of quality and affordable gear.

Hawk28,

Between the M120 and M150, I would recommend that you go with the M150.

Well, I made the deal and the Nola's are now in my possession. I don't have them hooked up yet; I only tested them to make sure they work. Now my amp search goes into a higher gear, and the more I read is the more I know I want a tube preamp, such as the Rogue Perseus, for example. However, I have read a ton of material where people are happy with the tube preamp/solid state power amp combo, so there is more for me to consider. I'd like to take my time and make the best decision for my system, but the Rogue monoblocks (M150 or M120) are still high on the list.

Audioman, thanks for you thoughts on the Stereo 90. I have considered that piece as well, but admittedly not with the same level of interest or enthusiasm as with the monoblocks.

You have got to be joking for under $2k you get the Rogue Magnum that is 90wpc all American made Not Chinese and the transformers and parts quality is night and day better it is a tank!
this is a fact just go to Rogue audios web page and see
what the magnum has for parts , also there is a brand new
review of the Magnum on their review page . In fact I have heard both and the stock Atlas is better than the Prima luna, the Prima Luna advertises much more that is why you see them on the pages so much nothing more , I now own a Magnum .

I like McCormack and McIntosh, but I have a Musical Fidelity A3cr that is currently feeding the two front channels of my home theater. I may switch the MF out to see how it does with the Nolas. I've also considered trying out Emotiva monoblocks to see what they can do with the Nolas.

Hawk,

I have the 99 Magnum preamp and if it is within your budget, I would recommend it over the Cronus preamp.

Also, my local shop has a pair of used Ayre monoblocks. I forget the model number, but I know they are 200 watts per channel. They sound pretty good. I haven't heard them with the 99 Magnum yet - we were talking about listening to that combination the last time I was there, but it should make for a good system. If you would be interested, I'll put you in contact with them. And they are a Rogue dealer, so you could try the Cronus too. They are in Peoria, IL, if that is anywhere near you?

What solid state amps are you considering, by the way?

If you can go for the m150s, so much more of an amp, good luck, chris

Chrissain, that's good to know. but my budget will largely determine whether I go for a good used pair of M-150's or go with the Rogue Cronus.

Reynolds, I am in the process of making a deal for some Nola Viper IIa's. I'm definitely going with a tube pre-amp, but I am still undecided on the amp. I'm thinking monoblocks, but I'm going back and forth between solid state and tubes. If I go tubes, it will more than likely be Rogue. Another thougth with Rogue is to go with the Cronus pre-amp, as I have heard that this integrated delivers the goods, Wires and interconnects are all Signal Cable. My sources will be a turntable and a cd player, and I am looking for quality used pieces for both.

I work at a dealer that sells both, the prima gear is nice for the money, but the rogue m150s are in a different league,who ever said the primas throw a bigger stage, and sound more life like is just plain wrong. If anything i would say just the opposite . good luck, chris

Hawk,

You are welcome. My speakers are Silverline SR17.5. I replaced the stock crossover capacitor with Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil. I replaced the stock resistor with a Mundorf Supreme. However, within about a week (I've already received shipping notification) I'm going to replace the Mundorf caps and resistors with Duelund VSF. I'm looking for less top-end emphasis than what the Mundorfs seem to be doing. I'm expecting the Duelund to be better balanced.

Anyway, back to the Rogues. The guys that own the local shop here are Rogue dealers. They were up last week to listen to my system before I changed the crossover... they want to be able to compare the change.... and they commented how much they liked the M150s over the M120s when the 150s came out... the improvement was immediately apparent... and they both said that as big a jump as the M150 was over the M120, the M180 was that big of a jump over the M150s yet again. We haven't done a M180/M150 side-by-side. Someday I may take my amps by the shop and we will. But don't get me wrong... I have heard the M150s many, many times in the shop and they are quite nice!

Also, my interconnects are Kimber select, and my speaker cables are Kimber Select KS-3035. My source is a Rega Saturn CD player.

I may have missed it in your earlier post, and if so I apologize, but what components other than the Rogues and Primalunas are you considering? What speakers, source, wire? I'm just curious.

Reynolds: Thats good info. What speakers are your Rogues pushing?

Hawk28:

I have not heard the Primaluna so cannot contrast the Rogue with them. Between the Rogue M120s and M150s, definitely go with the M150s. I have the Rogue M180's. If you go with the M150's someday you should consider the upgrade to M180. The M150s are faster, quieter and run cooler than the M120. The M180 is significantly faster and quieter than the M150.

I got my M180s with Gold Lion KT88s. I replaced the small tubes with NOS RCA 5751s and 12AU7s. I tried NOS Telefunken 12AX7s and wanted to love them because I know how rare they are, but I had to go with my ears, and for me that meant the RCA 5751s. Going from the 12AX7 to the 5751 was like going from ultralinear to triode all over again in terms of system quietness.

I also have a Rogue 99Magnum preamp. I replaced the 6SN7 tubes with NOS RCA 5692s.

The Rogue M180s suit me because I like a lean, articulate, fast bass along with the midrange and upper frequencies of tubes. For me the Rogues are a good balance of those qualities. Refining the sound with a little tube rolling is to me a must, not only for the Rogues but for any tube gear I've heard. The new, stock tubes just don't do it for me.

But I want to add that the above works for my tastes and my system and should be taken in that context only.

Stoutblock, Sorry for not responding sooner, but I haven't logged on in quite some time. I have yet to make a purchase, but I am still in between
rogue and Primaluna, and I am also still deciding whether to go all tube or tube pre/solid state power combo. Either way, the pre will be either Rogue or Primaluna.

Hawk28, what did you end up getting? I use my Primaluna 7s with a First Sound Presence Deluxe and I can tell you the match is simply grand! I've been using EH KT88s because that is all I can afford, but I've rolled many a driver tube with great results.

Interesting enough, I've actually get the best sound in my system using 12AT7 in place of the 12AX7 tubes. Its actually quite amazing how much more open my Soliloquy 6.5 speakers sound with these. I recommend others to try this.

I've never heard the Prima Luna amps but make no mistake the Rogues are anything but bright. I think they do all of the things that a good tube amp does and not too much of the bad.

I have heard them in comparison to several other different tube amps and no they're not the dark, romantic tube amp but they do plenty enough to pull you in and involve you in the music and have that extra oomph so they're not as sloppy as some tube amps.

I have the Rogue Apollos and I have four other close friends that all run Rogues as well. They make a great product.

knowing the kt-88 tubes very well I can tell you
the new Electroharmonix KT-90 tubes are like a el-34 tube on steroids very good at the extremes and still have some of the magic the el-34 s are known for .All Rogue 150s that have the New Magnum mods have these and are now 180wpc.
The New TAS magazine gave them a Rave .

Oh yeah, tried and true. I am very familiar with the 3A. Auditioned it a couple of times way back when. Great Choice!

I am using the audible illusions 3A. There is no better preamp for the money.

Newbee, Thanks. I will look for some of those reviews. Orpheus, are you using the Pl3 pre-amp with the 6's?

Hawk28, FWIW the PL 3 has a high output impedence (3500 ohms) and matching to an amp could be problematic. In my system it sounded best with amps (other than PL amps) that had an input impedence of 100K ohms. There is an old review on 6moons and a couple in the major rags that discuss or at least allude to this issue.

I bought a prologue 6 a couple of months ago and I have not quit listening since. After switching to NOS tubes, I believe it sounds better than ARC.

It may be as Newbee said,as to synergy.The soundstage was rather "flat".

Thanks, Tpsonic. Lamm Industries? Do you think the PL3 was out of its league?

With tube amps:Innersound iTube (160W/kt88 or 6550) and Lamm ML 2.1s.

good Stuff here, guys. for the most part, the more I read, the more I like the Primaluna gear. Just wish I could hear it for myself before I take the plunge. However, I do have a mild concern that some of you feel that the pre and powers work well together, but no so much on their own. Was either component used with other tube gear, or solid state?

FWIW I think the PL3 AND the PL amps have synergy that neither have with other amps or pre-amps. I have both and have found no satisfaction operating them separately but combined they are really very good. A tad warm but still very clean and reasonably resolved especially considering their cost. I'm considering up-grading my PL5 to the PL7's for the reason that was just mentioned, the 5's just don't have enuf bass -it seems to hit the deep notes but gets off them too quick, ergo a somewhat thin bass. Even with the PL3. But using the PL3 does make it far more acceptable.

FWIW.

I might not include the PL3/pre,I don't believe it has the "magic" that the amps/integrateds enjoy.

I love the sound of my PL 7 on my Soliloquy 6.5 (91db) speakers. I tried driving these with a PL 5 and although it sounded grand, the bass has more authority and control with the 7s.

Tube rolling is critical to get the sound you like.

Thanks Marty, based on yours and a lot of other responses, I will have to give the PL 7's strong consideration, even without hearing them. I think it will come down to what I can get used on Agon, while springing for a new PL pre-amp. But we will see where my head and pockets are at after Christmas! :)

I don't know the Rogue amps, but I own the PL 7 monos. They are reasonably powerful, very fine sounding, extremely versatile (easy tube rolling w/auto bias), well built amps - especially for the $. If you can visit the PL importer, Upscale Audio, which is located about an hour outside LA, you can hear the entire line-up.

Good Luck

Marty

BTW, I've settled on the KT-66 as my preferred output tube when I use these amps in my system (usually driving Merlin VSMs).

I would check the bias just to be sure each tube isset right - its simply and easy on the amp to do - let the amp warm up for 30 minues with the volume turned down then check it - after that check it 1x a month

Thanks for all the great feedback. I'm amazed at how beautiful the amp sounds. It's going to make the winter months that much more enjoyable. As I don't know much about tube amps, I was wondering if you could answer a question. If I pull the power tubes out, should I bias them when they go back in? The reason I ask is that since it's a used amp, it was shipped to me with the power tubes out (only signal tubes in). When I got the amp, I just put the tubes in their proper locations (he had the boxes marked) and turned it on without biasing.

Donjr when they shipped me my Magnum all of the signal tubes were Sylvania's , might want to just give them a call and ask

Try some Amperex 7025's in place of the 12ax7's.Very nice sounding tube.