Threads like this make me laugh.
Even if you choose to go "no preamp"... there is still a preamp involved!! It's just a lower quality preamp, tagged onto the digital circuitry, sharing the same power supply as the digital section. No thanks!
Do you really think that if you put the circuitry in the same box as the transport/DAC that somehow it magically eliminates preamp circuitry?? Nope. |
I tried both ways with my Nuforce DAC-9 192k and preferred the sound with my preamp in place. When I used the DAC as the preamp it sounded a tad clinical and in your face. For my preamp, I'm using a Placette active and it has an excellent volume control. Using the preamp sounded smoother. |
Generally speaking in audio systems I prefer simplicity as less is often more. But this preference while good in theory(fewer boxes,power cables,IC etc.)takes a back seat to sound quality-music reproduction. We all will have different outcomes and opinions, no surprises there.
Grannyring my experiences mirrors yours, the better quality active linestages(premium tube models in my case) just sound much better, more complete and realistic to my ears. Those who find DACs with intergrated VC to their liking, congratulations and continued good listening.They just don`t cut it for me.
Regards to all. |
Only good reason is sound! Not any other reason. |
If you have just digital sources there is probably no good technical reason to have a pre-amp. I'm sure there are very good dac with volume controls out there. Maybe to introduce tubes in the pre-amp if a tube sound only fan. |
Many have ditched very expensive preamps for a well implemented volume control in the DAC(including me). Considering the amount of loss incurred in an analog cable and running signal through additional circuits I am not surprised.
To me there are no sacred cows in where to put the volume control (which is what we are really talking about here). I used tube pre, solid state pre and now the volume control in the DAC. Then there is the whole debate about analog VC and digital VC in the DAC.
I think the ideal VC implementation would be a DAC with a switch for 0db, -10db, -20db, -30db, -40db attenuation in the analog domain to match DAC output level with speaker sensitivity and desired volume level for the listening session, and then a digital remote control to attenuate up to an additional -20db. Wonder why no one has build this. |
Preamps, great active preamps, are a must for me. Without it music is
simply not as musical to me. So preamp builders please build on! To my
ears a proper stereo system needs a great active tubed preamp.
To me, I would be wasting money on my system not having my active tube
preamp. So yes, stop putting a volume knob on all those DAC's so when I
buy one I'm not wasting money on that volume knob.
To each his/her own and this is just my experience and preference. Listen
on! |
Audio-Gd has several, this is his starting price point ($549 no remote, $599 with) they go up to about $1900
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB-10.1/NFB10.1EN.htm
Tim |
There do seem to be certain components that manufactrurers love to combine and DAC Preamps is one of them. I am no EE and don't understand the allure but you do see a lot of them. Amp builders I have spoken to seem to get a charge (no pun intended) out of building preamps. The reason remains somewhat unclear but to the ones I spoke with it was the challenge of the circuit. I somehow doubt that is why, I think it more an economical one and we need a frank discussion of that. |
I" can't help but wonder what my savings would be if there were no preamp attached to those units."
It's not about saving money. Its about removing a serious number of veils. Nothing quite like it.
I used a highly modified Levinson pre for years. Mostly wired with silver wire, point-to-point and lots of Black Gates etc.. Nothing like the stock ML. I though it was really transparent, until I developed a DAC volume control. The pre has been gathering dust for years now. Not even close.
The only thing I have found that approaches the tranparency and air of this is a good transformer linestage, such as the Music First. I actually use a transformer buffer now, using the Finemet transformer technology from Feastrex. Even better.
The only requirement for a transformer linestage is that the output drive on the DAC be sufficient. Op-Amp outputs can stay at home.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
.
Thanks Steve, the reason that I started this thread is that some of the DACs that I'm interested in that have great reviews are DAC/pre units.
I'm a die-hard Audio Research tube preamp guy. I love their sound and I won't entertain any discussion about replacing it with a preamp from a DAC.
Offerings from Antelope Audio and Empirical Audio have well regarded DACs, but they also include a preamp. I can't help but wonder what my savings would be if there were no preamp attached to those units.
. |
In general, my only concern about a DAC and pre-amp in a single box would be how well is the pre-amp section shielded from RFI generated by the digital circuits/DAC? In general, I would prefer these in separate boxes separated by space as an insurance policy at a minimum. I would definitley not try to cram a low level phono section in there as well.....
A similar concern with integrated amps is proximity of power amp with transformers, etc. to the pre-amp section, again especially with phono. HEre the issue is more EMI than RFI perhaps, but I would prefer separates here as well to physically separate the two as an insurance policy at minimum. Often, noise levels in circuits can affect the sound quality in subtle ways well before any effects are clearly audible. |
Grace M903, Mytek 192 DAC-preamp, Antelope Zodiac+, Lynx HiLo modern professional DAC-preamps have superior preamp section within the price of $2000. |
This is a good question, the ps audio perfectwave dac mk2 has a preamp section in it, wondering how good it could be |
Mitch - Beware replacing a good active pre with a volume control in a DAC. Most of them are substandard and will be a step down.
On the other hand, a few are excellent and will probably beat your active pre. Depends on the technology and implementation. It varies widely. I would read the reviews. If they say it beats good preamps, then its probably a good candidate.
Some are based on variable gain control of an active buffer stage. Others are based on resistive attenuation combined with a gain stage. Some are based on using an integrated chip to digitally control the gain of an analog stage. Two of them are based on controlling the reference voltage to the D/A conversion.
The last 2 generally deliver the best SQ, but again it depends on the implementation, the design details. Controlling the D/A reference voltage is the only one that actually reduces distortion as the volume is decreased.
You can also use purely digital volume control, but I dont recommend it. More than about 9 dB of attenuation will start to reduce sound quality.
Another option is to use a passive transformer based volume control (TVC). You basically cannot lose doing it this way and it beats pretty much all active preamps.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
In English language bunch of different words, expressions may mean the same thing and yet the same word can have a tons of different meanings. These factors you should know in order to stay within our 3d without going beyond.
DAC with volume control
Preamp with digital input(s)
Full function preamp(usually applied to the ones with phono)
DAC-preamp
preamp-DAC
...will basically mean the same and share the same idea
Conserning your second paragraph, I believe you're tripping or indeed found yourself in multi-d space and have no idea how to get outahere. Saving money by removing DAC? or preamp? How about removing DAC from CD-player? I don't getitatall. I've always believed that one box will be cheaper that two boxes.
One preamp with DAC and phono will keep you from necessity buying both of separates...
I used to study the multi-d math, but kinda quit doin' that coz got tired understanding those theorems that are necessary for you not to get lost.
To continue studying multi-dimentional calculus I would probably have to smoke an ounce of MaryJohana per week. |
In that price range? Not much. |
There are DACs and there are combo pre-amp/DACs.
One buys what one needs.
Not sure I see a problem there? |
