Preamp Deal of the Century

I agree with Bwhite regarding this matter. Furthermore using this forum for such an announcement seems inappropriate to me. I would hope for a nominal cost that Mick would offer to upgrade the existing Cortese and Grange out there to the level of the "new and improved" models if it is possible. If not, he might have been wiser in not using this forum to display his enthusiasm.

Having said that and getting back to the topic of the thread "Preamp Deal of the Century", don't believe for a second that that the value and performance of the Syrah and Chardonney have been diminished by Mick's post. They are superb performers in their price range and above and most importantly, a great value. After all, how many handmade, hardwired, transformer coupled full function all tube pre-amps are available for 2.5K? I would welcome knowing of just ONE that performs to this level at this price point.

Tubegroover - think about it, the Cortese (and Grange I suppose) is hugely better than the Syrah in that it is WAY more refined, solid, and of a much higher quality standard than the Syrah - in my experience. While sonically they are quite similar, the Cortese is in every way a more precise instrument - having owned/heard both, there is no question in my mind.

Without going into detail speculating how this could effect used Syrah prices, lets just say that if the price of a used Cortese were to fall substantially, who in their right mind would pay $2500 plus customs and shipping for a new Syrah from Australia vs. buying a used Cortese in good condition?

Anyhow.. I may have totally over reacted to this and therefore put too much emphasis on "resale value" which while important & something Supratek is "famous" for, is not what really matters.

What seems most important (to me) is whether or not Mick provides an upgrade plan to Cortese/Grange customers - without that, this announcement of progress will most certainly hurt all who have supported Supratek - in one way or another.

Bwhite, agree with you 100% on offering an upgrade. Just wonder how that would effect the production of current models?

You guys need to calm down a bit here, and you may be missing the point about Mick's announcment.

The issue at hand is all about 'controlling potential noise problems/mismatches with amplifiers from other manufacturers' with some further improvement in sound. It's not about current Cortese/Grange owners being somehow stuck with an inferior product, it appears that Mick's new circuit maintains the magical sound of the original circuit but at lower gain therefore better matches amplifiers that have high gain.

If noise is not an issue with your current Cortese/Grange in your system then the upgrade is also not an issue?

You are also jumping off the deep end without consulting the master first! Mick is a very approachable and helpful guy who takes great pride in his work. I am sure any of you who require the upgrade need only ask him and he'll probably do it.

Excellent post, Stevem.

Hi Everybody- sorry for the delay in getting back to you all-I didn't realize my post had stirred up some comment.
I dont actually get a chance to look at this forum very often ,and I hope that any owners of Supratek products have no hesitation in contacting me personally if they have an issue about anything- I take a great deal of pride in my service and always try to reply to personal emails asap, but cant follow the forums with my limited spare time.
However, should I have used the forum to announce new models? On reflection, maybe not- but I'm selling the new models now and I thought everyone had a right to know what the situation was- rather than hearing misinformation third or fourth hand.
As to possible upgrades-I've already done two and should have said that it was possible- again I presumed that any interested would contact me directly. Obviously I have to fit them in when I can, as I dont make any income on upgrades as they stop me building new preamps, but I will do it as soon as possible and at minimum cost to the owner- I dont think I can reasonably be asked to do more.
I can understand that some would get upset about new models, but it is a part of life that change happens. I only introduce new models when I think it has to be done to improve the sound and features of the preamps-with some reluctance as I can appreciate the feelings of people whose preamp has just been superseded.
But I had no choice- the new Cortese/Sauvignon, Grange/Cabernet are much better sounding and are very versatile- previously there were some power amps that they were simply not a good gain match with- now they will happily work with any power amp and bring the best out of them.
Please note that this issue does not apply to the Syrah and Chardonnay preamps- I'm very happy with them and have no plans to replace them at all. Incidentally, the Syrah and Chardonnay make up about 80% of Supratek production.
Please contact me direct at supra@supratek.biz if you would like any further feedback.
MickM

Stevem11960, Mick writes that his new preamps will have higher gain. What he doesn't say is how much gain the newer preamps will have, but 20db is the theoretical maximum gain a 6SN7GT. Otherwise I certainly agree with the tone of your post.

Stevem - even though you are mentioned on the Supratek website (at the bottom of the preamp page) as a helpful and encouraging person, I do not believe you have your facts straight and therefore are not helping any.

*We* should consult the master? Well.. The master hasn't bothered to come back to explain anything and hasn't updated his website. He just waltzed in here and told us that he had bad news.

Mick's "intro" post:

The bad news for present owners is that I've completely redesigned the Cortese/Sauvignon and the Grange/Cabernet preamps.

Thanks for the encouragement Steve but I don't believe that announcing improvements to a design as "bad news" for present owners is very professional -- perhaps that's why *I* jumped off the deep end.

Steve, you confuse me when you say,

If noise is not an issue with your current Cortese/Grange in your system then the upgrade is also not an issue?

If that were the case, they why on Earth would this be BAD NEWS for existing owners?

This is where I think you need to consult the master yourself before trying to smooth things over with silliness like that.

It's pretty clear, Mick's announcement either indicate changes more significant than solving noise issues or a newly crafted line of B.S. that none of us have heard before.

I am waiting for the master.

The master has spoken.

Thanks for the positive comments Fiddler & Jazzdude! And Jazzdude, I stand corrected about the gain issue, you are quite right, the new Cortese/Grange circuit maintains that high gain aliveness with apparently little noise.

Brian, I can appreciate that you have recently bought a Cortese preamp and feel that you have missed out on the new circuit, but as you can see from Mick's generous offer of an upgrade, the solution to your problem was already there, all you had to do was call Mick. I think Mick's honesty, direct approach and accessibility by his clients is sometimes to his detriment! I mean, if you bought an X-Series Pass Labs amp today, and found out tomorrow that a 'new' Z-Series has been released, would you go looking all over the planet for Nelson Pass to tell him what you thought of him ?? I doubt it ... so why do it to Mick, at least he's had the decency to discuss this matter openly.

I also stand by my comments about gain not being an issue on the Cortese depending on the system you are using. If I can explain, I have the luxury of being able to put together several combinations of cdp/amps/pre's/speakers in my home, depending on my mood and preference at the time. For example, if I line up the Cortese with the low sensitivity Merlot monoblocs or the Pass Labs Aleph 3 and a Proac Response 2.5 loudspeaker (87dB efficiency), then the sound is very sweet with absolutely no issues of high gain or noise. Alternatively, if I throw in a Krell KSA-100 (loud and highly sensitive) together with my W.A.R Audio Reference Two loudspeakers using Raven Ribbons(95dB)/Accuton Ceramic mids/Cabasse 21NDC bass drivers, then some background hiss can be heard.

Hence, my comment that if your system is not highly sensitive, then the gain of the Cortese is not an issue.

Please note also that my reference to Mick as the 'master' is just a figure of speech and is not meant to be sub-servient. You must admit though, that he is the creator (maybe I should use this term ? but it's too pretentious) of the beautiful pre-amps that we all love, so a little bit of respect wouldn't go astray.

Brian, I have read all of your posts and you come across as a very reasonable and knowledgeable person and your enthusiasm for Supratek is reknowned. Please don't flame me further on any of my comments, they are really just that - my opinions, and not worth getting hot-n-botherd about.

'Creativity' and 'the zeal to improve' are necessary ingredients for making lovely music out of a bunch of valves; transformers; capacitors and resistors! I for one, am glad that Mick Maloney has a furtive mind and continues on the quest to get better and better with his Supratek products - we're all the winners in the end ...

Regards,

Steve M.

Passion, passion, not a bad thing, if directed appropriately...

Even ignoring Mick's response, I don't think this is an example of the manipulative marketing stategy of the Sig model, or Master series, or Mk II, etc. that we are all on the gaurd for and which we, assumably, have assumed we had, in some small measure, escaped from when purchasing our original Syrah et al. Small manufacturers who are passionate - and, of course, this passion is where the original pre's derived - also tend to passionately introduce new models. Commonsense wise, Mick should have mentioned the upgrade path, but, as some have noted, I don't think that was what he was meaning to talk about in the first place.

If I had just purchased a Grange and saw this message, then my initial reaction might have been as some of the above. But, then again, I think I would have contected Mick directly on that matter, and I'm sure, given Mick's past performance, I would have been accommodated in the context of the retail price and potential upgrade, don't you think?

As for myself, I still own the Syrah - one of the early ones - and I know that its resale value, like all of our components, will eventually fall. In that context, a question: have we all become a wee bit spoiled that our pre's are holding their value so well?

Its the stereo game. Mick didn't invent it, and he's not, like most manufacturers, abusing it. Its a luxury, one that 99.9% of the planet's population can not even consider. Within that sub-culture, .1% you have found a product that comes along only .1% of the time. A new model for guys who can shell $7500 for a pre doesn't change that...

Steve, I appreciate your input and apologize for my "passion" (as Asa put it). I should not have directed it at you per se'... Perhaps it's because I know you are close to Mick and the explanation you are giving seems to deeply contrast that which Mick himself posted.

Mick's post clearly indicated a revolutionary improvement to the design and your post seems to indicate that this is nothing more than solving a compatibility issue.

Mick's post started by saying this was bad news for existing customers and you seem to indicate it is not.

So my question to you is, who do we believe? Should we believe Mick, or should we believe you? I'd like to know.

Sure, I could email Mick myself and get an explanation but because he made the decision to use the forum to make a "bad news to present owners" product announcement, he should use this forum to clear up the confusion created by that announcement.

I am sure there are more people interested than just me.

Hi Brian...no need to apologise, I didn't take any real offence to what you said ( "like water off a duck's back" as we Aussies like to say).

I am not the PR arm of Supratek, but I do know Mick well and underneath it all he's always well meaning. I wouldn't read too much into his use of the words 'bad news'. Again, it's just a figure of speech and that's how the man expresses himself, it's his way of bringing a bit of comaraderie into the conversation and I don't think he saw any harm in it.

As to whether what he's saying and what I'm saying is the correct picture, I think it's a bit of both, but you have to read and interpret more what he's said than what I've said, as it's only my angle on it. If I were you, don't play a word game on the net - it'll get too complicated, just talk to him about the whole thing and he will explain it better than I can.

My point with the whole issue is that the Supratek pre's are so far ahead of most - that you've already got something very special on your hands, so be happy! I'm sure even Michaelangelo improved on his paintings as time went on, so why can't Mick with the Cortese/Grange.

Regards,

Steve M.

Steve - cool. Great reply. Thank you very much. I am no stranger to Mick's new product announcements... I had a Chardonnay in my hands for 2 weeks, comparing it to $10,000 preamps and thinking it was the best under 10K... when the Cortese arrived and made the Chardonnay the best under 5K... :) Then, when I finally saved up enough cash to buy a Cortese, Mick introduced the Grange.

The good thing is that Mick has done a great job of providing me with something to look forward to - I guess.

I think you've done a good job of smoothing over the rough edges of this announcement. Perhaps there will not be a ripple of confused perception surrounding (and damaging) the reputation of existing Cortese and Grange preamps.

Bwhite, get off the merry-go-round, fast, please, escape, ESCAPE!!!! :0)

But its a real problem, everytime ya think your at the top of the heap they pull you back into the mix with something better.

btw Bwhite, I am not concerned about the value of my Syrah falling, that isn't the reason I bought it in the first place. Furthermore, if something comes along that bests it by a substantial margin at a similar price, I would consider it a breakthrough and would chalk it up to REAL progress. And if your Cortese is that much better than the Syrah, I'm sure there would be interested potential buyers, myself included. If it is just a matter of improvement in the noise floor at the high gain setting, I just so happen to own an amp where this would be a non issue.

Nice post Steve. My objection to Mick's comments was strictly based on the good news, bad news without mention of recourse to the bad news as was Bwhite's it seems.

Oh no! 666 threads this close to Halloween!!!

Daddy, I'm scared!

Hi guys, this is the first time I have checked on this thread in a while. Whow! sounds like some controversy. When I started this thread, it was to let everyone know what a great product Mick had. I am sorry to see this controversy come up, but let me put my 2 cents worth in and I will shut up. I have always felt Mike was a great guy to deal with and very fair in his dealings. Was this the best way to tell people of his new designs? I don't know. What I do know is that you will never own the "best" of anything for very long. All designers, including Mick will always strive for more. As for me, I still own my original Syrah and have NO plans to get rid of it. I have mated it to a Berning ZH270 amp and that match makes beautiful music for me. The first thing I do each day when I get home from work is turn on the the hi fi. I hope all of you find that magical piece of equipment that "does it" for you. The Syrah is that piece of equipment for me. I don't care what happens to the resale. I am just happy listening to great music! You are all a great bunch of guys and I wish you all the best.

Glad to see the thread back on thread. I've admired the participants here not only because they use their own ears to evaluate equipment, but also because, unlike so many audiophiles who submit to the conspiracy theory that the government is withholding the use of matter transmitters each time they insist they cannot wait for overnight fedex to get those new, great cables that will change everything forever, you all have been able to wait for a truly outstanding product that you have never seen or heard. Hmmm. Or that an indication of another kind of weirdness?

This is, by far, the most enjoyable thread I have found. The easygoing, friendly atmosphere in the back-and-forth interactions is such a refreshing change from the obsessive-compulsive, teeth-nashing intensity that characteriazes so much of high-end audio. And everyone here seems to really love music, too. Go figure!

I hope that this thread just goes on and on.

Thanks, folks.
jeffreyfranz

Considering that you can now buy them used for less than $2000, I would put the Pass Aleph P up against anything.

Gogamecocks - The Pass Aleph is so....(excuse me) Passe'

Bwhite, better to be Passe' than Pisse'

Any owner in Sydney or Canberra?
I live in London and am visiting Oz in December and am looking to hear a Supratek pre-amp. Anyone know of one that I might be able to listen to?

Appreciate your help.

Curious, has anyone received any information from Mick regarding the "improvements"? And if so, could you share?

It doesn't seem like the www.supratek.biz website has been updated as Mick suggested it would be & its been two weeks since his announcement.

I don't want to pick a fight, but here's another alternative - Mick could raise the prices by $500 so that he can hire a marketing person to announce new developments in a more "sensitive" way, and then another $500 increase so he can update the website more quickly.

IMO you're being WAY too hard on Mick...be patient and let the man practice his art. You already have a great preamp and if he offers to upgrade it when he has time that's icing on the cake.

Tonneson...rigghhhhtttt.

Now, how about that Pass Aleph P thang just a sttin' there, justa dyin' for a shot across that dare bow! Oh well...all is happy in Whoville tonight.

Asa - While I'd love to engage Gogamecocks I thought I'd just let his presence on this forum pass (so to speak) -- he obviously had nothing relevant to add.

Tonnesen, no fight from me - you make a good point.

So I will continue to wait patiently...

Desperate!!!!! SYDNEY or CANBERRA??

Still hoping that someone can direct me to owners in either city to listen to these pre-aps you are all raving about!!

McLeodsd, you should visit the Supratek website to get Mick's email address and ask him. Keep in mind that most every Supratek owner purchased without listening.

I ordered the Cabernet from Mick. I'll let everyone know how it compares to the Sauvignon when I get it.

The Musical Fidelity CD-PRE-24 is awesome with a DAC, ADC, Transport and Preamp in one chassis. Great sound!

Hi Jazzdude,

Having gone from a Cortese to a Cabernet myself, I have to say that you will not regret the decison to go up to a Cabernet!! Both are excellent, but the Cab just has a more hear-through character, it's a very detailed and addictive preamp...

Regards,

Steve M.

Hi Jazzdude - congratulations! I'm sure the Sauvignon will be a fantastic addition to your system. Please let us know what you think when it arrives.

Anyone looking for a Syrah?

OK Supratek Syrah owners, what is your favorite tube compliment in your preamp? I am using Ken-Rad Black Glass 6SN7' Tung-Sol 5881's, Mullard 6GK5's, and Bendex Redbank 6106 as the rectifier tube. I am still using the stock tubes in the front of the phono stage. I am getting a lot of air between instruments with a lot of low level resolution with this setup. I sometimes switch out the Ken-Rads for 1940's Sylvania VT-231's or Tung-Sol round plates. How about the rest of you, what sounds best to your ear?

My tube compliment mirrors slowhands exactly, except for the regulation tubes. I use western electric 350b's in place of the tung sol 5881.

On the line stage portion of my Cortese I use Mullard CV181/ECC32. NOTE: These did not work in my friends Syrah for some reason. The power supply has Genalex Gold Lion KT66's and the Bendix 6106. I added Telefunken CCa's to the phono. Previously I was using a Mullard GZ37 rectifier but it didn't sound good after I put the Accuphase transport into my system. The Bendix really made a nice improvement with this transport but didn't work too well in my system when I had other transports.

The regulators tubes are a great place to tweak the sound. The improvement I can hear in my Cortese and a friends Syrah (who also uses the KR Black Glass) are worth the investment. That said, I am considering buying Ecclectique's 350b's! :)

The TS 5881's are okay but actually seem a bit dark and muffled to me these days.

Recently I have been playing with Svetlana KT88's, GEC KT88's, TungSol black plate 6550's, GE 6550's, RCA metal 6L6 and some others in the Cortese (and Syrah) but right now, the Genalex Gold Lions fit my system the best.

Slowhand, I'd recommend trying as many 6L6 type tubes as you can get your hands on.

When I first got my Sauvignon I quizzed Mick on the acceptable tube substitutes. He told me not to use the 6550's or KT88's as voltage-regulators. I never asked why.

Jazzdude - thanks for mentioning that. I wonder why Mick suggested to not use 6550/KT88 as voltage regulators. I've been told they are electronically the same as any 6L6 tube - it's just that they can take accept higher plate voltage.

Hi Brian, what 6L6's do you recommend? I just purchased a pair of Neotron 6sn7's for my line stage. I was told by someone that has a Syrah that they sound great in his. I will let you guys know what I think of them.

Hello Brian and Jazzdude. The early 6L6G[shoulder shaped bottle] are very good and quite a bit better than the later GB's or GC'c types in my syrah. Brian.....Email me off line regarding the WE 350b's. Cheers David.

Hi BWhite, I came across this thread by accident. The Spratek Syrah seems to be a fantastic pre from what i have read so far. I am also on the lookout for a decent tube pre to mate with a Mcintosh MC352/402 which i hope to purchase in the near future. At present i'm using the MA6900 integrated with TDL Ref. studio monitors & my only source- a Linn CDP.

I was considering the C2200 as the pre for the above system. From what i have read I gather that you were using the Syrah with a MC2000. I'm sure you would have considered the C2200 at some point for the MC2000. If so I am very interested to know how the Syrah compared to the C2200 . I shall appreciate very much if you can let me know your views on the comparison .

Thanks in advance,

Dylon

Whatever a person settles on for regulators and rectifiers, they need to be considered together as a whole. I prefer the dual-plate 5932 and gz33 together because this combo never stumbles on large dynamic contrasts. There is definitely a interactive aspect between regulator and rectifier. A different rectifier may well prefer a different regulator.

Dilly, You will hear a big improvement over the McIntosh preamp if you switch to a Supratek. While I have never listened to the C2000, my experience with McIntosh through owning and auditioning is that their amps are their strong suit. The preamps/processors and Mac digital I've listened to sounded equal to or in some cases less than other mid-fi home theater products.

I own a Syrah for some time and I have tried several rectifiers including Bendix 6106. 2 weeks ago I was suggested to try a RCA UX-280 directly heated rectifier and the sound was amazing! I asked Mick whether 80 rectifier can be used but his reply is NO. He also said it may even damage the power supply. Can anyone give me some advice about this? Thanks!

You just got the word from the man. How could we give you a more informed answer? The reason for no directly-heated rectifiers is the that they don't have a slow startup. When you power it on the components don't have time to adjust to the current voltage. This causes shorter cathode stripping and leads to tube life, shorter cap life, etc. The chances of damage increase with each time you turn it on. If you decide to continue using the UX-280 you should leave it powered on at all times.

Very good analogy from Jazzdude,No one should use any directly heated rectifiers with the supratek preamps. Although the guy's assessment is bang on about the sound of a ux-280.

Why are all these things named after wines? I look forward to Supratek's "Thunderbird" and "Mogen-David" versions. Or maybe a sober assessment of their real worth. Surely the "cannabis" editions cannot be far from development.