Active isn't exactly pure either.
Powered speakers show audiophiles are confused
17 of 23 speakers in my studio and home theater systems are internally powered. My studio system is all Genelec and sounds very accurate. I know the best new concert and studio speakers are internally powered there are great technical reasons to design a speaker and an amp synergistically, this concept is much more important to sound quality than the vibration systems we often buy. How can an audiophile justify a vibration system of any sort with this in mind.
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@pcrhkr My question is not that you bought a great amp and speaker, but that you are listening not to the speaker, but mostly wire. IF anyone realized how much wire is in a good LF inductor, then additional wire in the other inductors for midrange etc, they would be horrified. It's tens of feet -maybe even a hundred feet of wire in a giant LF inductor set up for a very low crossover point. We all know what 3- 6 feet of speaker wire between amp and speaker can do, imagine all that wire in the [passive] crossover does AND YOU CANNOT CHANGE IT. Does anyone actually think they are using Cardas in that Inductor? In active, there is about 12 inches of wire and no big inductors in the single path. Brad |
@thespeakerdude Are audiophiles confused? I think I know the why of the answer. Great music is emotional when it sounds great and you've spent 100s of thousands of dollars getting there it's not only emotional but it crosses the line to something that stock traders call overconfidence bias as its name implies the person thinks they are right about the equipment they've chosen and how it sounds. Audiophiles rest on many emotions even peer pressure to show how cool their equipment is. All these emotions add up to someone who will pay $1000 for an AC cable 3 feet long that sits between standard Romex and 16 gage internal wire in an amp, not to mention the $400 custom fuse that sits between PC board tracers. Moving forward in sound is a little like dating a beautiful woman you must be very careful of the emotional issues which make the actual practical issues more difficult to see and understand. Music is close to our hears and our wallets both are fragile and self serving. |
That you for continuing to carry the torch. @lonemountain same, here and on the other thread. Some people want to learn. Some people want to move forward. Others don't want to learn. Others don't want to move forward. Some who don't want to move forward, don't even want others to move forward, and even some who do move forward don't want other to move forward faster than they are. I have noticed just how few people from industry, even the audiophile industry post here. There is one amplifier designer / vendor. There are some who sell questionable products, but I don't count them. Given how my posts have been met, I am not surprised. I provided some links above, some heady reading, some pretty easy on where active speakers can and are heading. The only reply, derisive. Are audiophiles confused? Perhaps. Perhaps they just don't want to move forward and don't want others to either.
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@kota1 Thank you I’ll look into it. @secretguy Look at it this way if you buy very expensive speakers and very expensive amps how do you know they work together with the best efficiency, impedance matching, power efficiency per driver, particular driver power matching, driver frequency matching, just to name a few things. The answer is amps and speakers don’t work together most efficiently if they are not designed to work together. If you don’t like speakers with amps built in then get speakers that are designed to be run with outboard amps and crossovers. How could this not make sense. Audiophiles are very confused. |
When you buy Levinson separates you are able to mix and match passive speakers until you find the match you prefer. When you buy a powered speaker with a plate amp you have the ability to mix and match preamps. Whichever you prefer is up to you. I have passive and active versions of the Paradigm Reference 20 speaker and I could never get the same bass extension with the passive speaker, regardless the amp. If I already had $20,000 monoblocks maybe they would sound better matched with the passive Paradigms in the soundstage or the mids. At the end of the day it would be "different" and is a matter of preference and budget.
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Example, if you have two Levinson mono blocks driven by a Levenson preamp. Will powered speakers sound like Levenson? Or the plate amp inside the speaker? Why not runa cheapo $3,000 setup through a great set of powered speakers if that is the case? Why spend $20,000 on mono blocks if you won't hear their aplomb or character?
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That must be some kind of record @joysjane. |
After having 4 pairs (total of 8) of expensive speakers all go tits up with their plate amps I’ll pass. Add on top of that, nobody wants to even try an attempt at a repair on these amps. I now have a lot of expensive door stops and anchors! Maybe I can make some kind of yard decorations outta these abominations....🤮 |
I think I need to do something really good that may mean doing the job in an unorthodox way who wants normal anyway. I do think my system needs to be as standard as possible I just want to do something special by the way I use the system, hopefully. I think I'll have to hang speakers in my room it will look awful, oh well. |
She is a wonderful woman and I would never want to say anything bad or embarrassing about her. It was just an ironic moment and something I think of often when I put cream in coffee. Just yesterday I said ok to remix a movie in my studio here in Idaho. I said no at first but thought ok I may as well jump in. I could write a book about production sound on set but I'm no expert in post mixing, I have about 5 months to learn all I can. An old friend hired me and I really don't want to let him down. I guess all I'm saying is I better get my system up and running first class, and I've got a lot of learning to do. The mix will be in ATMOS 5.1
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@kota1 I got a few things wrong in my old age it was the 70th Oscars, and Paul McCartney and Sting sang at the 2002 Oscars for Pearl Harbor. That was also a great night because it was at the brand new Dolby Theater, we had to go through a lot of security because of 911 happening earlier. Celine Dion was perfect as usual the sound at the show was really good but it had to be quiet because of the broadcast of course. Halle Berry presented the sound award and Black Hawk Down won with caned helicopters and looped dialog but whatever, seems like I would get over it. Halle Berry is very nice I was lucky enough to work with her on a TV series called Extant. Here is an funny story, the Director of Photography on CSI Miami would always yell out to one of his guys get me a "Halle Berry", when we finally figured out what that was it was a cup of coffee that had as much cream to have the same complexion as Halle Berry. Well there I was years later at craft service getting a cup of coffee with Halle Berry talking about Disneyland I think, I was pouring some cream in my coffee and looked up at her down at my coffee and back up at her beautiful face and just laughed to myself thinking how did this actually happen.
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@Kota1 LOL I actually been to the Oscars twice for Titanic (we won) and Pearl Harbor (we didn't win, but we should of) the first time was the best my wife and I walked up on the red carpet and since Sinney Poitier (who was getting a lifetime achievement award that night) was in front of us and Will Smith was behind us so all the photographers took pictures that included my wife and I. I was not the department head of the sound crew, I was 2nd, so I didn't get to go up on stage, oh well, I didn't get a statue I got a certificate, oh well. We got to see Paul McCartney, and Sting sing it was a special night because all the previous Oscar winners were invited because it was the 75th Oscars and I was sitting on the isle so I saw everyone who was anyone in Hollywood history, a great night.
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When it comes to the "most creative" active speaker category I nominate @phusis When it comes to "most knowledgeable" active speaker category I nominate @lonemountain When it comes to "best integration of active and passive speakers" I nominate the OP @donavabdear who also gets special mention for starting this thread. When it comes to the "best swing and a miss" active speaker category I nominate the members who have not yet tried active speakers because they were confused (but hopefully they will be on the nomination list for next years awards.)
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Will all other posters in this thread who have MORE than 11 active speakers (including subs) in their PERSONAL HT (professional studios not included) please raise their hand? Unless we have another member I win the "active speaker" playoffs for most active speakers in a HT. I think that gives me some creds when it comes to this thread. When do I get my trophy? Thank you very much.
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@kota1 :
There is no such thing. He is NOT a speaker designer. He is Cin Dyment. Famous in all audio forums. A sick dude with nothing to do, and a Google Machine. That’s all. If you did not get the memo, he had been here at least 19 times before with various usernames. All banned. Here is the list:
thespeakerdude
cindyment2
oddioboy
crymeanaudioriver
theaudiomaniac
theaudioamp
deludedaudiophile
thynamesinnervoice
cindyment
snratio
yesiamjohn
sugabooger
dletch2
audio2design
dannad
roberttdid
roberttcan
heaudio123
audiozenology
atdavid
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@thespeakerdude wrote:
A convenient pressumption to make the narrative fit to your needs. Come on..
I'm shooting sparrows with cannons in my systems approach in several areas, and don't have to proof nor explain anything to you with regard to my discerning abilities. The questions you're asking however tells me you may be working from a physically limited framework where it least some of the mentioned parameters will be all the more challenging and press upon themselves to be addressed - more "creatively," even. Again, you haven't yet addressed my plead: give me/us something to go by with a range of speakers that meet your criteria in being fairly faithful to the signal presented to them in a given acoustic environment - then we'll see what you're up to and what it really amounts to. It should be clear to most that you're knowledgeable, but so far it mostly comes down as show-off and telling people what they're missing out on. I surely mind being a bitch to that attitude of yours.
No, you need to show something by example here.
That's a preposterous claim before even realizing what's here. The future of active configuration is first making it more known and widespread in its varieties to the users in domestic sound reproduction. There are bundled solutions. Outboard. Pre-assembled. DIY. Small and large iterations to pursue - the latter if one truly chooses. You want to jump the fence from passive to your way of "shine a light" active as the only thing that really does it - in what form or shape? Details, please. There's a lot in between or even beyond. I've chosen DIY outboard-active from a relatively unrestricted package physically. It goes to show the importance of physics with subs in particular; below the Schroeder frequency it's about capacity, proper design/construction and implementation mainly. The larger the cumulative cone area the less cone movement is needed for a given SPL, and in effect less inertia build-up, more headroom, lower distortion, ease of reproduction and all that jazz. Not to mention attention to room-loading with DBA's, column sub solutions and/or more extensive room correction digitally. Servo drive needn't apply here, not that the effort isn't well-intended. And so on.. |
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There was nothing rude in a teacher correcting a student who has made an error, or correcting someone using a 1990 snapshot of battery technology to comment on electric vehicles. Knowledge is never rude. Taking attitude with someone where you lack knowledge is rude. If you would like to fix that issue, here is a quick smattering of papers that provides a cross section of what active speakers means to those working nearer the forefront of the field. This is by no means an inclusive overview, but it is a good start. When you have read all of them, and fully understand them, including why in almost all cases they require tight coupling of the amplifier to the driver, then we can continue this conversation. https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/13746312.pdf |
It is very difficult to listen for transparency For YOU because our (replace our with @thespeakerdude ) detailed audio memory is so short that we have a very hard time comparing clearly there are several people commenting on this topic who are far more knowledgeable and experienced than you are Of course there is, otherwise I wouldn’t waste my time in this thread. The people I am gaining knowledge from have all posted their creds. You are making it up as you go along IMO. I would suggest you lose the attitude I wouldn’t have an attitude if you posted something besides a fantasy system from your made up job designing invisible speakers, PLEASE prove me wrong OK? Everything I make claims about when posting I either link to evidence or it is based on my own system which I have posted. When I call out rudeness I respond in kind, your insults to @phusis are ridiculous as he has backed up his claims by posting his system. You are just dancing around spewing insults with nada to back it up besides a keyboard so I called out your nonsense.
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A lot of system/equipment distortions are amazingly easy to hear with a signal generator with variable frequency and level. We use these to check for driver distortion during the recone process. That would be a good place to start and being simple, easy for everyone to hear. It isn’t unusual to use one in a studio to check for speaker rub and buzz but also room/equipment/ furniture mechanical vibrations and resonances. |
@kota1 If I may answer for @thespeakerdude transparency is when you have a band setting up in the studio and before you start recording from the control room you walk into the studio and listen to each musician play their instrument to see how it sounds with your ears, and listen the guitar, bass, and drums. When you get back to the control room and put up some faders you have what the real sound is and if that sound is coming through the speakers in the control room. That is transparency and you usually never want it to sound like it did in the studio because you can make it sound so much better. A better description of transparency is recording Tom Cruse or Anthony Hopkins on a movie set, you better get their voices just like you were standing there in the movie or else they will have to loop the scene loose performance and sound quality. |
You need to back up the stuff you claim with something: How would you listen for transparency? What does it sound like? Have you heard it before? I can tell you EXACTLY how to listen for transparency, with your ears. You have an invisible system, a mythical job, making fictional speakers. If I’m wrong post your creds. Otherwise start a new thread and title it, "Once upon a time.." so we all know its a fairytale going in OK? I encourage my fellow members to stop feeding the troll unless he posts his creds. |
If we assume that the HF component is riding on top of the LF swells then the HF always clips before the LF in a passive system. Most tweeter in a box behind a crossover are more sensitive than the woofers and need to be padded down ~10dB, which further points to the HF needing very little power. It would take some skill to design an active system which clips the HF before the LF. Maybe using a 1W SET on some inefficient tweeters, and a kilowatt amp on the woofers could get one close… But I sort of doubt it. It would take a lot of work. |
@phusis , and probably most people's concept of amplifier/driver is a simple linear voltage based amplifier perhaps with some frequency response modification. Without writing a book, that is a traditional view that is not the future of active speakers. Even active subwoofer drivers with velocity/position feedback already break that mold. There is no set "ratio" between the LF and HF peak in any given set of music, though practically, the peaks are significantly more at the lowest frequencies. However, you can soft clip bass while preserving mids and highs unclipped and achieve a speaker that is considered more flexible, i.e. able to play louder while being perceived as still sounding good. However, that is a "club" driven too loud situation, not a professional setup where you ensure the system is not clipping with the music you are using. |
Isn't the bulk of amp/driver "match" really about coordinating [the same] dynamic range of each section of a complete system? I mean an active system cannot be considered high end if it clips its HF amp on the tweeter before the LF amp clips on its LF driver. This is the most basic of requirements, yes? The same rules apply to a full multi way active PA system, yes? There has been little talk of dynamics with active, but that is where one of the larger benefits occurs. The level of LF demand on an amplifier is often underestimated, yielding a negative result for a HF device on a single way [passive full range] system. Brad
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@phusis , How would you listen for transparency? What does it sound like? Have you heard it before? Do you know what relative distortion sounds like in a speaker over any given frequency range? at a particular sound intensity? What would you use to listen for it? Do you know the pedigree of that recording and the signal / processing chain to know the level of transparency from the time the sound was created till it comes off the recording medium?
When you understand the intricacies of driving a traditional dynamic driver or AMT in the most linear possible fashion, at all signal levels, with complex waveforms, perhaps your attitude will be warranted. |
@thespeakerdude wrote:
As they say: are you gonna balk all day, little dog, or are you gonna bite? That's just quoting to my immediate recollection of the completeness of this saying, so nothing really implied wrt. "little dog" as such, but being you and a few others here are so much into this intricate amp-driver match, so much so indeed that it would seem you're loosing sight of the forest for the trees (while smelling some bull as well), why don't you name me a few brands/models of active, bundled speakers that adhere in some fitting form to your strict standards here, and I'll attempt to seek them out to the best of my abilities as brand/model availability allows locally, and give them a thorough listen. Others around here would have the same opportunity also, and hear for themselves what all this is supposedly about. I know, you're apparently affiliated with a manufacturer yourself - alas, one you can't reveal - but maybe you could "hide" your own representative among a selection of, say, 4-5 brands/models, and I might be lucky to catch it of the bunch in random fashion. If nothing else I might be able to listen to just on of them and assess for myself what this claimed über amp-driver match transparency trait is all about (maybe I have made this encounter already without knowing it, and I didn't really make a thing of it either way), and if it moves mountains in the whole scheme of things combined with their overall design and implementation. To me you're just hiding behind it all, making the claims you do. Give us something to go by, or it's just hot air. I believe we agree on much more than what would seem, but this whole esoterically-laden secret-sauce amp-driver match baloney grew old a long time ago in your efforts to lessen the advantages of active if it isn't per your approach. What's there for all to see however, if they went at it themselves, is that getting rid of the passive cross-over for amp-driver direct-control is the major boon in itself and the meat and potatoes of active configuration. You go outboard active there are several aspects in dedication between amps and drivers that can be made, not least to ones own taste, and you have carte blanche wrt. the drivers, speaker design and size you want couple it with, along with the remaining gear. Forest for the trees, my friends.. |
@thespeakerdude No, not at you! I was commenting on your most recent transparency post where you talk about amplifiers. |
Was directed at me? I am not sure I understand the question.
I expect little I say is something that audiophiles agree with 😁 Fortunately, I just have to make speakers that are transparent, not claim to be. There is, as noted so much lost in the translation from live music that it seems like an obtuse goal, but for what my customers mainly do, real transparency, which effectively is low distortion and controlled dispersion, is a real goal.
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Re: the marketing question, are expensive products for a bunch of arrogant suckers with cash to dispose of? I think the companies that have been around a while have stayed around because of customer satisfaction. The new companies going against them may rely on grossly overstating their products, but how can they stay in business for very long? I think the issue is wasting money on mismatched components and rooms, not the dealers and manufacturers. |
