I have used a PS Audio Power Plant Premier (PPP) for many years. It’s more or less a converter, AC to DC then back to AC. Before buying, I researched it and found it did not perform well with high current amps but I tried it with my VTL amps anyway. The amps sounded anemic and lifeless. My front end components only sounded slightly better than without the PPP. A few months later, I replaced my equipment rack and was thinking about selling the PPP. All my gear was plugged directly into the standard wall outlets and that’s when I came to appreciate the PPP. Without the PPP, the sound was ever so slightly harsh. I did not reinstall it for a few days to give my brain time to adjust to the change, then back it went and I just smiled. For me, the PPP is like a dialed in subwoofer, you don’t notice it, until it’s gone.
Note: my amps are on a single 20 amp dedicated circuit and the PPP is powered by a standard 20 amp household outlet. Also, my subdivision is 20 years old and the power company substation is a mile away. All the utility power lines are underground and a few months ago the Transformer serving our street was replaced by the utility co. They said it was close to the expiration date.
Sure.... I,m interested in any new products,I use directtv and exede for internet.( no phone lines either) I live 17miles from any real roads(thats a 4 light town) and 45 min from the nearest walmart.Honestly I havn,t given much thought to line rf . I am considering moving my ht and 2channel into another building( my recording studio space) i have 16'x30' x10'
Home theatre at one end 7:2 and my 2;2 at the other end with sofa chairs that can spin around . 2"x6" walls on cement(possibly do a floating floor) . It has 2 dedicated 20 amps from my power house not my house panel ..but that makes my wife and daughter 100yrds away at the house ..hmmmm no noise limits i have a big property..
Thanks for the kind words ,i am sorry if the thread got hijacket. Respect
I can say it is quite interesting for an east coast city boy who moved west yrs ago to being tig welding in my shop with zero help from big brother.It is common in my area it is very secluded although I only know of one friend who has all mac and diamonds other then me fully offgrid audiophile style ..by choice cheers
Your DIY power generator is effectively eliminating the usual problems with dirty AC from the grid. Excellent!
The only thing left to address now, if you are inclined to do so, is the RF/EMI entering the wiring from the power source to the receptacle and possibly your system cabling. I just received two different versions of RF/EMI cloth from Amazon, one inexpensive and the other a bit more expensive, to experiment with shielding my power cords, ICs, and speaker cables, all post-power enhancement, from RF/EMI.
I will let you know how it comes out if you are interested.
I convert solar to dc then ac to house (220also )It has been far from cheap ! No gov kickbacks on fully offgrid setup or state in California I have ran my amp into the separate 20 with and without . Warmed for two hrs , played exact track vinyl or dig , unplugged with marked volume replugged again .. the furman sounds tighter and crisper definitely brighter but straight in wall seems to be a little more open in the soundstage and warm .. jmho .. i run it in the furman i want to make sure im covered if i have a problem with my setup . Ymmv .. my setup is mild around these parts .. I run a cheaper furman on my ht no reg just surge etc .. and unplug after every use , my epson projector is on another wall i just unplug it after every use thanks for the kind words cheers ...
I have spent a Bundle on PC in the last 35 years, and I do not HEAR a Difference.......except some PC make the music sound dead or some might say very dark.....another words worse.....That's why I want to try the Toroidal Isolation Transformer.......AS far as the 20amp line I hope the gent tells me he can do it in this apart. you sure have a lot going on at ur house with the ac, I love the part with ur daughter, makes it all worth while....thank you for ur input...godbless
Although there are places where a power conditioner would be advantageous, such as a large apartment building; I believe it falls in the gray questionable area. Think about it, we're improving the AC, not the DC which is where it makes a difference.
The manufactures of high end components have already spent a considerable amount in high quality parts, turning the AC into DC; I should think those parts would be able to withstand a blip every now and then; that's part of what you paid for.
Many reviewers have stated they prefer the amp straight into the wall.
However, if I spent a bundle on a power conditioner, I'm sure I would be able to hear the difference, kind of like the magnificent clothes the King was wearing.
henrycai, It has its moments lol... Other times it can be quite expensive ,i just replaced two inverters at 2k each( no notice just tanked )..Although watching the hydro wheel spin and chug power to my batteries is slick during the winter.I enjoy explaining that the sun makes power for our house to my 2yr old daughter...The power i have is very clean in theory, but i do see it fluctuate throught the furman..I guess as usual here and almost everywhere in life,its related to the level you wish to go ...I would be shocked if everyone agreed on anything here ,even music lol..We all have different aproaches and financial investments in our systems..I also have another ht room 7:2 among other passions so the money goes in many directions..If price was not an option i would get into another more high end unit.I can say imo that a direct line to your system will yield great results,even if you unplug your amp during a storm etc.. best of luck .. keep us posted
I had 2 different regenerating units from P S Audio in the past, I found them a waste of money, the gentleman bought my last premier PS Audio unit said it did not do anything for him either.....that's why after awhile you see there big ac regenerating units 50% Off......I can buy there $5,000 units n smaller units now from there dealers for 50% off, I do not feel there worth it......................................................
I will look into the Powercell, I think they have a new unit out with good reviews, but I must admit I do like the idea of the big Bryston or Torus unit...... I did have a guy come over today 2 take a look n see if he could run me a separate 20amp line, my ac box has no extra space in it.....so he took pictures of the box etc. n said he would get back to me......I hope he can do it......THANK YOU FOR UR HELP.
Have you considered the Synergistic Research Powercell 12 UEF? More impact than a toroidal transformer and no filters to choke current. Comes with its own Graphene power cord and UEF receptacle.
My p2400 ar is toroidal trans with v reg . And lift tech . I wouldnt say its the best at any price but at 1600 price ( retail 2300 ) its real good . Sometimes i look to pro studio gear myself .. maybe because i’m a musician.. i cannot comment on the others you mentioned . If i wanted to spend the loot i would be regenerating power , but that twice the price easy ..
I have decided that my next PC will be a Torus or bryston Toroidal Isolation Transformer with voltage regulation. I want to try something without Filters this time.....Any Feed Back is Welcome.
toolbox, I have the p2400ar and its always plugged in (except for epic storms)and off until about an hr or more before .
Like i posted earlier, I keep mine down low and away from everything (it rides below my rack under my amps power supply ..raised off the carpet on audiooints. Best of luck
I can categorically say he** yes clean power will make a difference in your sound system
I learned this several decades ago when I started replacing most of my original cords with Essential Sound Products cords and later their power distributor. Here's a telling fact: I got the distributor for a 'song' because the seller had just paid for the electricity provider to install a transformer just for his home. Once he did this, the ESP distributor no longer made a difference. Apparently, having a dedicated transformer serving just your home, is the only way to make sure you are getting the cleanest power for your gear...
I have since moved on from the distributor to an API Ultra Power Wedge 116 which can operate as a converter to deliver fully balanced power. I kept the ESP Essence power cords though...
You can find API and ESP products in the secondary market for very reasonable prices. There's no denying it, you will appreciate the 'value' of clean power more and more easily if you don't have to pay an arm and a leg for it!
J135 "does Furman have a recommendation? And yes, nothing stops a lightning strike..."
Good idea. I should have done that first. DOH!
So for you Furman users out there,,,, I called Furman and spoke to Michael, a very helpful service tech. According to Michael, Furman power conditioners protect equipment against surges regardless of whether or not they are turned on. They don't consume much power so you can either leave them on 24/7, or turn them off when you're not listening to music. The line core melting equipment works whether the unit is on or off. This advise works for the PL8 series as well as their most expensive conditioners. Michael did say if a storm is heading your way and your house is susceptible to lightning strikes, for the best safety unplug the Furman. I'm fairly well protected from lightning so the hard-to-reach Furman will stay on while my other Furmans will be switched off during non-listening times. Also, as to the placement of the Furman units, just above or below other units, Michael recommended a 1/2 rack space between it and signal processor devices and 2 to 3 rack spaces just above or below pre-amps or amps.
gdhal, you have been told the truth ... nothing will protect you from a direct hit except unplugging ... talk to people who have had every electric device in their home fried, no matter on or off ... I once saw a service panel blown off a concrete wall and 20 feet across the room, straight through a steel-clad door; sure darn glad I wasn't there to see it ...
I can't think of any scenario where the supply AC would impact the signal path through an audio device. Capacitors were "invented" a long, long time ago, and so were AC -> DC circuits. I suppose if you really tried, you might find a real junk piece of equipment where the sound is changed as a result of wild changes to the AC or environmental RFI, but that's a stretch.
That said, I do have my important entertainment stuff (including TV and cable box DVR) plugged into high quality computer surge protectors with battery backup. Why? Because they might be effective (and supposedly insured to $1 million) if something truly awful happens on the AC side. Also, when the power goes out for 5-10 seconds, the equipment doesn't switch off and on, which I think must be hard on it after a while. When the DVR loses power, it takes 20 minutes to reboot, which is REALLY annoying. Separately, my Rowland pre's run through their own battery backed power supply, which is good because when the pre's truly lose power (such as when you unplug them from that power supply) they instantly forget every single stinking setting, including the phono pre settings. I think Rowland did the battery power supply "feature" mostly to avoid angry late night phone calls.
I've tried ~30 or so, everyone screwed it up. The most effective "condioner" I've heard is totally passive. Dealer disclaimer: Purist Audio Design LE, 25th, and 30th power cords condition in a win-win way. :-)
I have the Synergistic Research PowerCell 10SE with a 32-amp Powercon connector power cord. this was about the 3rd or 4th generation of the series and what I can tell you is this, space is blacker, no noise whatsoever, dead quite period. I hear details in music I never heard before with a smooth 3D dimensionality landscape. Synergistic Products are expensive.... they are an important part of ones system, but you have to get the good ones, not all are created equal.
gdhal, I don't know. I sold both the Adcom and Furman after I bought the Shunyata Triton. I also don't actually know how the Triton would fair in the situation. I threw away the light bulb when I found that was the problem. I did not want in the house after that. It seemed to be just one bulb out of the 4 in the fixture.
I don't have any dimmers. And I have went out of my way to get rid of all compact fluorescent in the house. I also find it interesting that the preamp seems to be the only thing that was affected. There was no buzz in the kitchen radio right next to the dining room. The stereo is on the other side of the house from the dining room.
But it actually turned out to be some what of a blessing in disguise. If the whole thing had not happened I would still have the Furman. The
Shunyata Triton has a much bigger positive impact on the sound. I am very glad I upgraded and it was a great excuse for the wife. Also it didn't cost me anything to get my Ref 5se checked out by ARC as it was still under warranty. Plus ARC said they did a few updates to it while it was there. My ARC dealer was really nice about it even when they did not find a problem. It was just really annoying at the time.
@lostbears okay, I read ya. Curious though because in any case fluorescent lighting can be a cause of DC on the line, and in particular if there are any dimmers involved. Also, it doesn't necessarily matter that any "offending DC item" be on the same breaker. DC and anything connected to the same panel is enough to permeate through your entire house. But if as you say you've isolated the issue to the Furman because you didn't have the problem with the Adcom, question then is does the Adcom provide DC filtering? You probably want to do something about the fluorescent lighting in any case.
The hum was definitely coming from the preamp. The cause was a compact
fluorescent bulb in the dining room. We don't use the lights in dining room much. The bulb was putting noise in the line. You turn the lights on, the preamp had a hum. You turn them off and it was gone. Curiously the two rooms are not even on the same breaker. There was no ground loop. It never happen before or since. So I presume the old Adcom Ace 515 that I was using again before I bought the Furman, did not allow the noise through. It only happened shortly after I replaced the Adcom with the Furman. I just didn't put that together until after.
power conditioners are not designed to address hum (if coming from your amps transformer). This is why you need a DC filter.
I recommend - what I use - an Emotiva CMX-2. Besides the fact that it "works", it is inexpensive (less than $100 if you wait for sale which Emotiva runs regularly) and doesn't limit current in any practical sense (i.e. technically it is not 100% passive but is 99, given the meaningful LEDS)
I had Furman n they were good.....but that was before they sold the company.....my friend didn't want 2 buy mine so he bought a new one.....this was after Furman sold....bought it at B&H Photo around were we both worked.....he didn't like it plus it hummed so he returned it n bought mine.....he like n kept it.....all I said 2 him was.....I told you.....this was back before 2009....good luck everyone.
oleschool: "jmho this 2k plus range is where the real changes in conditiong etc are taking place upwards to 4k for regenerative power .."
Yahtzee!
I started my AC enhancement trials after the installation of dedicated 30 amp power lines with a Furman IT-Reference 20i ($3500), their TOTL conditioner then and now. Very well-built unit, but impact on sound was minimal, er, I mean "modest". I compared it to my ancient Chang Lightspeed CLS-6600ISO conditioner and the Chang was better, but still "modest". Sold the Furman and moved to a SR Powercell 10 Mk II and the improvement was like in the Wizard of Oz when it changes from B&W to color. Sold that one off in a period of financial hardship and went back to the Chang. The magic was gone but I adjusted over time (ie didn’t listen much and got hooked on vintage systems for a while). Years passed. Recently bought a pre-owned Powercell 10 UEF/FEQ ($2500-$3K for a pristine used unit including a TOTL SR power cord and FEQ unit) and the improvement in sound is transformational.
I would like to know if any of the owners of budget passive power conditioners have tried a reputable-brand, equivalent-cost power cord on their digital source instead of their current/previous power conditioner? If so, what power cord and what were your impressions of the relative effect of each on the sound of your system?
Ronkent, I tried a lot of there PC....including there---ultimate outlets--humbustres III------ two of there regenerators the last one being the premier---- which my friend sold for me n he told the gentleman it may not help.....but the guy said he wanted 2 try it anyway so my friend asked him 2 let him know if it worked in his home......when the guy got back 2 him he told him it did nothing for his ac problem......I still have the 2 humbusters III......I have moved 2 a new apartment 220 miles away n awhile ago I hooked the up in my new place n new system.....they did what they always did nothing except make the music sound dead.....I also had n still do quite a few of there power cords.....n they never did anything for me n I have had a lot of different high end equipment.....so bottom line is I do not even think about them when it comes 2 Power Conditioners or cords
Furman makes an excellent product, and protects better than most surge protectors, and I do find they make modest improvements in sound quality. Please do not be discouraged if it did not remove hum.
I did not have any real complaints about the Furman other than I thought it should have helped protect against the hum. I actually thought something was wrong with my preamp and ended up sending it back to Audio Research. It was only when my dealer loaner (also ARC) did the same thing made me investigate deeper. But it also made me wonder what other things the Furman did not help protect against.
I can not hazard a guess on how the PS Audio would compare. It was a while ago and my system has changed quite a bit. I was happy with it until I upgraded my CD player to one with a lot more tubes. Then it couldn't put out enough power and would kick off.
I would expect a huge difference between the sound of the Furman and the Shunyata Triton. The Triton retailed for $5000. while the Furman Elite 15 PFI lists for around $700. I think a far more fair and interesting comparison would be against the Shunyata Venom conditioner.
But this is only my experiences in my system. I imagine power like everything else is very system dependent. So the conditioner that works best for me may not sound the best in another system.
I do not have the time in the testing you have . I can say that the elite is a relatively inexpensive furman at what 600? Or so . I love my p2400ar but it is selling at 1600 or so retailing at 2300 .. jmho this 2k plus range is where the real changes in conditiong etc are taking place upwards to 4k for regenerative power .. respect and cheers
I have had a number of power conditioners over the years. An Adcom Ace 515, PS Audio P300, Furman Elite 15 PFI and Shunyata Triton to name a few. I only use a power conditioner for my front end. I plug my amp straight into the wall.
I leave all my power conditioners on all the time except the PS Audio. The Furman does sounds better if left on. Shunyata says that it take 3 days for the Triton to sound it's best. Nothing is going to protect you from a lightning strike. If there is a huge power surge it is not going to matter if the conditioner is on or off. Whole house surge protection is the better way to go.
One of the dealers I frequent uses Torus conditioners in his rooms. If I was going to go with that type of active conditioning, the Torus would be my choice.
I got rid of my Furman because I felt it did not isolate noise very well. I had a problem with an intermittent hum in my preamp. After much searching I figured out that the cause was a compact fluorescent bulb in the dining room. I thought the Furman should have cleaned the power a bit better. I never had this problem with the Adcom Ace or PS Audio conditioners.
I got rid of my PS Audio because as I upgrade my front end with a tube preamp and CD player. It just couldn't put out enough power. I thought about a more powerful unit but decided that the Power Plants might just be too limiting.
I now have a Shunyata Triton and I am very happy with it. It is a huge improvement in sound over the Furman Elite.
Actually I warm up the room (if needed) about 1-2 hours prior to listening and I turn on all the equipment and softly play music for about 45 minutes before heading down to listen. That said, unplugging the power conditioner would be way more difficult than reaching around a component and turning the conditioner on or off. I haven't been that limber in years. I'm just wondering if people have an opinion as to which way would be better. Leave it constantly on, or get on my hands & knees and reach around a component to turn it on and off every time I listen to music. If the general consensus is there really is no big difference, I'd just as soon save the wear & tear on my knees. BTW - 25 years here and I've never experienced a lightning strike.
Just unplug the conditioner's power cord at the receptacle if you are that worried about lightning. It is my experience that components need (often a lot of) time to warm up in order to sound their best, so restore power at least a half hour before doing any critical listening.
Before this gets too far away from my question from a few days ago, I just want to thank the people who offered advice. I found a way to extend my bottom shelf back enough to fit my Furman behind one of my components. I'll just have to leave the Furman always turned on, because it will be hard to reach. Although this breeds another question. I'm not one of those people who leave components perpetually turned on. My thinking has always been, if you turn off a power conditioner, there will be an electrical disconnect inside the power conditioner, between your electrical system and your components. I suppose, if your house was to receive a lightning strike, the electricity would just jump the small disconnect; so it doesn't matter if the power conditioner is on or off. Is there any difference, on or off?
Just my experience, but i don't go outside us . If by chance ,like myself you have to return something customs can be a bitch . I sent something back to a well known store here . Bad experience all around ,took a mnth to get my money back !
I prefer isolation transformer based conditioners like Furman, BPT and Torus. However, many friends like AC regenerators like PS Audio. Please stay away from PurePower Canada...many reports of dishonesty and loss of units or funds.
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