I was considering these two units as well..I would say the Bricasti is the better choice for many reasons. Streamer built in, it's literally two dacs in one, upgradeable...I'd get the Bricasti for sure.
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@acurus Maybe consider asking over on WhatsBestForum as well. Also, consider adding into your question what sound characteristics you are after and if folks can provide direct insights if either or both meet those. Maybe give folks some sense of what equipment you'd be matching them with. |
It's kind of random as I'm building a new system. Looking at full Bricasti M25 and M21 or PBD and TBD amplification. Probably with Joseph Audio Perspective speakers. I prefer resolution, dimensionality and slam but at the same time want to add in as much organic and musical sounding as possible. Yes I know I want best of both worlds. |
I have not heard either but researched both, the PDB is the most upgradeable sonically. It is FPGA based design done by the guy who invented the FPGA DAC design. The Nagra DAC that I think sells for $30k-60k is using the low-end code that Andreas Koch (sp?) the PBD designer sells to third parties. He saves the good stuff for his own DACs. Ted Smith of PS Audio learned how to create his FPGA DAC from Andreas. I owned a SONY SCD-1 SACD player (modded) and Andreas was involved with that project. Just from that past experience alone made me buy the PBD Streamer-IF streamer with Plink and ROON READY capability. PBD's prior gen streamer I am currently using the SPDIF of that streamer with my Benchmark DAC3B. It is a killer streamer. As good as the Lunim X1 stream and Sonore OpticalRendu fibre optic streamers. The Streamer-IF is inputting Ethernet, which I find the worst (fibre the best), but Andreas and his partner have made some magic happen in that streamer. If he can do that with crappy Ethernet I expect greatness from his DACs. My plan is to get a PDB Dream DAC to hook up to the Plink fibre of the Streamer-IF. Use ROON of course. I am moving my DAC purchase to 2nd in priority since lower priced DACs are rather good these days. My top priority is to get an amp as good as my CODA #16 for my Livingroom. The new CODA SYSTEM 150 (to be released next month) is what I am targeting to pair with the PBD Dream or Edilwise DACs. The 150 amp is supposed to be a little less warm than the CODA #16 (TBD) and should match nicely with the slightly warm PDB DACs. I am using the CODA #16 in my office.
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I have the M21 from Audio Acrhon in Chicago. Audio Archon sells both Playback Designs and Bricasti so they are a good source for comparison info. Mike Kay was very helpful in making my decision. I choose the M21 because of all the different options for playing PCM and DSD files. I use the M21's internal streamer with ethernet. It takes up to DSD128. For PCM there is either ladder DAC or Delta Sigma. Most of the streaming I do is with Qobuz using Audirvana. Some music sounds better with the ladder DAC and some with Delta Sigma. I've purchased DSD files from NativeDSD and used them with the 1 bit native DSD player. The Jazz at the Pawnshop recording sounds almost 3D using the DSD128 file.
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Bricasti network card is a renderer and not a streamer. This means you need a Roon Core or a UPnP support player like MConnect to be able to stream music.
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Okay, I am confused -- particularly since the Bricasti M21 and the PlayBack Designs MDP-6 are the two DACs I have been most impressed by, albeit based only on what I have read. I thought that the M21 was "good to go", allowing me to plug in and then be fully able to listen to streams of music from Qobuz and Tidal. Apparently, that is not so. I also have a Roon Nucleus+ on my network. Will I still need to purchase yet another component before I can utilize those two services if I were to buy an M21? |
Bricasti is Roon ready so just connect Ethernet cable to have it sit on the same network as your roon core and you are good to go for tidal, qobuz and local library files if you have any. You can also use nucleus as a streamer feeding M21 via USB but I doubt that’s going to be as good as just using the M21 as roon end point. What I was trying to say above is there are dedicated streamers that perform better sonically than the Bricasti network renderer. Do you have to buy a dedicated streamer? No. |
@acurus, I like my Bricasti M21 DAC very much because it sounds great. The DAC has a 24-bit delta sigma DAC, a 20-bit ladder DAC and true 1 bit DSD for DSD content. It includes an Ethernet connection so the M21 is recognized as a DNLA device and becomes a powerful media renderer. I switched my music streaming to using Audirvana Studio software on my MAC Laptop Computer (14-inch MacBook Pro M2 12 Core/19CPU). I use Audirvana Studio remote on my iPad to find the albums, playlists, etc. My Bricasti M21 DAC connects to the Internet using an Ethernet cable. This setup has resulted in my music being clearer and more open (replaced my Aurender sever). The Audirvana Studio interface is excellent and is easy to use (yes, there is a slight learning curve). The removal of the music streamer and having the Bricasti DAC connect to the Internet and then to my MAC computer has removed a layer from the Music and made it more musical and clearer. I was not expecting this much improvement. The use of Audirvana Studio App has substantially improved my sound quality very much. As an example of great product support, my Bricasti DAC was upgraded for $1,000. Their MDx board replaced the existing board in the DAC. The next Bricasti upgrade was a free firmware chip program that needed to be inserted into the DAC to complete the upgrade. Both upgrades greatly improved the DAC for a very reasonable cost. This is an example of a company supporting it customers. |
To the OP - it's not difficult to home demo these (somewhat harder for the Playback)...why not do that? In typical Audiogon fashion, it seems that half these responses are from folks that don't have direct experience, and the other half is from folks who only have experience with one, in a system v diff from yours. If you're already inclined towards the Bricasti amps, I'd be inclined towards the Bricasti dac as well. I can tell you, from direct experience, that there is no contest between the stand-alone Bricasti streamer and the current Playback Designs MPS-X (a D to D converter and streamer). The MPS-X is significantly more expensive...and significantly better. Someone tried to extrapolate what the Playback dac sounds like based on a old-generation Playback digital streamer. That's a weird way to think about things. It's not hard to find good digital design. Digital has been very good for a while. What's hard is to find excellent analog output stages. We're talking about digital...to analog...converters. When dcs came out with the "Apex" upgrades, the digital didn't change much. It was really about upgrading their previously lackluster analog output stages. I'm getting distracted from the point...which is just listen for yourself. |
I totally agree with @metaldetektor that listening yourself is the best way to decide on component #1 or #2. Sometimes this is easy and sometimes it is not. Audiogon Forum posts and answers are interesting but necessary the answer. As many people before have said, you have to listen to the equipment yourself and in your listing room to make the right decision. |
Thank you all for your posts and suggestions. I've been posting for more than 20 years and I will say I am always intrigued with responses to go "listen for myself". I think that defeats the purpose of these forums. If we all had the time, the money, the patience to buy it all and demo it all we can simply delete these forums. That's not the point of these forums is to be advised to get them and demo them. Just my humble opinion.
With that said, I do appreciate the time people have taken to respond. Just looking for feedback on who has heard them and the results of using them. Not advice to go hear them. |
Couple notes as a dealer of both brands - the M21 "Network Card" can be used as a streamer the same way as the PBD Stream X module can. StreamX is a $3K option on the MPD-6. Both can leverage MConnect and JPlay to work as a streamer or serve as Roon or UPnP endpoints. The person above asking if they needed something else if they have a Roon Nucleus on network, no. This will serve as a Roon endpoint and nothing else would be required. The MPS-X with a separate server is superior to the StreamX module but StreamX is a very good place to start. Both units are very well manufactured. Bricasti is built like a tank, no question but when you pick up a PBD DAC it is obvious how well it is made. Both made in the US, just on opposite coasts. The major difference is going to be in the image and a few features. The MPD-6 and M21 tonally are quite similar but the image is different. The MPD-6 is a smidge more detailed with a large soundstage that is tall and wide and has excellent depth and good stability. The Bricasti delta sigma DAC probably has a larger image in terms of height and width but I don't believe it is as detailed and I don't think has the absolute depth of the PBD. The R2R is nice and a different flavor altogether. Both are upgradable. The firmware on both can be refreshed introducing new features. The modular nature of the Bricasti also makes longer term hardware upgrades possible. Both have amazing customer service and relatively few issues. Bricasti's Amps and Preamps are absolutely superb and obviously, the M21 will match aesthetically. The M21 has a bunch of filters to fine-tune the sound. And obviously it has R2R, 1Bit DSD and the Delta Sigma DAC meaning you have more options. Playback has no filters. You like it as is or you do not. Fortunately, Andreas knows what most people like and the MPD-6 is very appealing to many.
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I have the M21 and very happy with it. Mike at Audio Archon sells both but recommended the M1 which i originally purchased. I decided to go ahead and upgrade to the M21 to benefit from the analog volume control. I was glad I did. The M21 is worth the extra coin. I use a PS Audio Airlens as a ROON endpoint to process the streaming. The M21 has better power supplies than the MPD-6 at least from what i can observe looking at open chassis images. |
Yesterday, I received -- and installed -- my build-to-order M21 as well as Bricasti's M19 SACD transport. These two components replaced a Wadi 8 CD transport (which I may, or may not, sell), a Theta Digital Compli SACD player, a Wadia 2000 DAC, and a Lumin T2 streamer/DAC. Like others, I seriously considered Playback Design's MPS-6, too. Compared to what I had previously listened to in my home, the M21's [even] initial performance was utterly astounding; all aspects are simply better -- clarity, realsim, detail, soundstage depth, etc. are amazing. I have yet to compare the various DAC offerings and filters; these were the default settings. What I did not expect was the improvement the M19 provided to shiny discs. I have to say that the M19/M21 combination -- with the I2S connection between them -- gave real credence to the belief of many that CDs can still deliver a better performance than is obtainable from 44.1K via the Internet. I have never spent so much money before on a source (or two sources together). Frankly, I was worried ahead of time that I would not be able to discern much difference from what I already owned. Was I ever wrong! To put this in perspective, one of my local high-end audio stores has on display a Berkely Audio Design, Luxman, Shunyata, and Magico system costing $221,000. This is my "reference standard"; up until now, my own system wasn't even close. But no longer -- if anything, with the addition of the two Bricastis, I believe that my updated system surpasses what I was able to hear in that store. |
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@acurus I've not heard the MPD6 but have heard most of the Bricasti DACs over the yrs and based on my own budget bought an M3. I thought the M21 was the most transparent Bricasti dac of all. Owned a Lampi Big6 prior and no comparison. @jmeyers yes a lot of money but you are one lucky person. My dealer uses the M12 & M19 and it is the finest sound of CDs I've heard especially using that I2S connection. Would not have thought it possible to get so much music out of CDs but our ears can easily tell the difference. CDs now sound unforced and the only word how I can describe when I've listened to his M19 is musical and natural......Enjoy your music. |
I can only speak for myself but am happy to explain my reasoning for preferring home demos. 1) I learned very early on that I could not depend upon a showroom demo to provide an accurate impression of how gear would sound in my room. YMMV 2) I’m not by nature a wheeler dealer and buying and selling gear is not something I relish. Nor can I afford to lose much cash on trial and error buying/selling. YMMV 3) I’m not by nature technically-minded so reading specs and looking at photos of the insides of components doesn’t tell me much. I do have decent ears although I’m definitely still learning. YMMV 4) Each person hears differently and has different tastes. In my opinion, it would be foolish to assume I’d like something simply because anther guy likes it. One guy's "warm" may sound neutral to me. Who knows? YMMV On occasion, I will go out on a limb and buy something I can’t demo at home but this is very much the exception. My Jay’s transport is an example. I’m expecting delivery of Fritz Carbon 7 SE’s tomorrow. I have yet to encounter a single less than enthusiastic review of these speakers but would not have considered them if I had no option to return them.
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