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I would ask VPI...they will give you an honest answer. |
Appreciate your responses. |
When I had my HW19 MkII and upgraded to the Mk4 with the super platter it made a large improvement, then even more with the Sama Motor. |
The HW-19 is probably the most "tweakable" Table VPI ever made. A bit unsure what Platter you have, is it Lead Filled with a Cork Ring underneath? With 3 Adjustment Pins by the Spindle?
The Classic Platter would most likely sound different, but perhaps not necessarily better. That may come to be a personal opinion of one versus the other?
While VPI no longer markets the Super Platter, it appears Elusive Disc still has stock of these. As far as I know, all VPI Platters, with the exception of the HR-X Super Platter should be a drop in fit on any other VPI Table.
I would assume that as some have claimed, the Super Platter was the best VPI ever made, and again would assume just due to sheer mass-weight(at 25 lbs), that there would be sonic benefits to be had.
Lowering noise floor to a stock HW-19 can be accomplished a number of ways, experimenting-substituting suspension components-materials to Base, different Feet, Shelves, Racks, Bases, modification to the Stock Motor, and Motor Mounting Hardware within the Base.
And there's the VPI SAMA.
And as well the VPI SDS Speed Controller, to lower Motor Noise Floor, and also correct for slight speed errors, inherit on all VPI Tables. Mark |
Keep what you have. The difference is mostly the platter itself, not wether the bearing is inverted or not. I have the same platter that you have on a TNT6 plinth. It was an improvement over the thick, black, acrylic/lead platter. BTW, I believe that what you have is a MK5 platter. Acrylic/steel sandwich.
According to Mike at VPI in one of our conversations: "It is as good as any platter we make/made, including the Super Platter" |
Mark, my platter was called TNT 2 when I bought it, it has no lead (that I know of) but does have a cork ring, and the 3 small micro-point adjustment screws. I think I've got the isolation and suspension worked out pretty well and I do have a SAMA and a SDS.
Frogman, I just received an email from Mike at VPI and he says as far as he's concerned, he wouldn't listen to anything but the Classic platter. Go figure. He did say that it is larger in diameter so I don't think it will work with my super thick armboard and ET arm. |
The Super Platter and Classic platter indeed will not work with the ET-2 arm, as the platters are too wide. I had to ditch the ET on my TNT when I got the Super Platter. |
Well... years later and much more experience later...
( I can't count on my many fingers, how many times I've read the phrase, "((someone)) at VPI said", ("You have one of the best platters we've ever made.) So, this phrase has little meaning anymore. In fact, it has no meaning because Harry has made SO many changes in such a small time frame,... how in the hell is an end-user suppose to know what they have.. or at the very least, how, what they have sound like, by comparson to what the hell ever that VPI decides to make public???
Since this thread arose, it turns out that upon my experience, Frogman was wrong! He stated the difference between a non-inverted bearing and an inverted bearing will not be the main difference. Wrong, wrong wrong!!!
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I had a super platter on my VPI Superscoutmaster.....the changing to the Classic platter was a significant step upward...you didn't need super-hearing to hear the difference. The soundstage opened up, looking back, highs sounded like they were non-existant with the Superplatter in comparison, the Superplatter was turgid, thick, and dead. The Classic platter's highs are not at all bright, just silky smoothe and fast. Get the Classic platter...I haven't heard the mag-lev platter, but I strongly suspect the difference between that and the Classic is not nearly as great as between the Super platter and Classic.
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stringreen:, has the great ability to (glom) on to another's post and somehow, maker it HIS own. Do not be fooled! He is the TRUMP of Audiogon!
I want it to be known, now... that I, in no way, have any relationship or even the slightest inclination of in any way.. a notion of being involved with stringreen's posts!
He/she, a while ago, stated... "get the mag-lev platter". What the #@#%&ck!
stringeen, just because you have under 3700 posts, does not mean that WE aren't listening.
By the way... Now, he/she is promoting the Classic platter. Not too long ago, he/she was promoting the ceramic platter.
stringreen... TELL US, NO, SHOW US your system? I challenge you to come up with an (original) post.
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Slaw...what got into you today....I tell it like it is. I only comment on equipment I personally touch and work with. I am not a salesperson...just a pro violinist who loves music and knows what instruments sound like. I have and am using the ceramic platter which is nothing more than a classic platter that has a ceramic coating. After comparing them both...I could not tell the difference between the 2 of them. The next time you see one of my posts and if it upsets you so much...just move along without looking. Make your listening great again.
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stringreen:,
I don't, as rule, follow others' history here. I'm old school with regards to "taking people to their word". (I find it somewhat disconcerting that you, by your response, seem to put me on the hook as to explaining, (your posts) and how they may be perceived). One other reason, I find this (my time) spent explaining this, objectionable.
What I've noticed, in regards to the threads we have common interest in is this:
(1) You seem to advise in a way that can only be described as neutral, while at the same time, given your history hear,... (others'/new posters may take as gospel.) IE: One factor is your long posting history. Newbies look at this as a somewhat, deciding factor in what they may look to in terms of their (further/ongoing? research. What we post is relevant to these people we are hoping to draw in to this hobby.
(2) You have recently posted in another thread that, I believe, you started, about the basic need for record cleaning... going on to explain why it may not be needed, Then, you posted on a different thread, (in your own way) out-of hand) recommending steaming as way of cleaning lps.
(So, tell me/us, what are we suppose to conclude from YOUR POSTS regarding tis one issue?)
(3) You have a history of chiming in on anything VPI related.
(4) You posted recently, in your normal manner, in this context, get the Mag-level platter. Now, we learn, you haven't heard it. So, tell us all now, Have you heard it, if so, why are you now saying you've never heard it, and, why are you seemingly trying to transfer the responsibilty of your posts, onto me, since I've now called you out on them?
Is this enough to elicit a responsible answer from you?? I hope so.
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...and don't get me started about YOUR post, asking others on their experience with Clear Day cables then, just two weeks later, recommending them to all of us???
I'm not the only one listening as I read the other day by a poster who asked you why, since you've been a fan of Anti-Cables, you suddenly have a brand new recommendation with-in two weeks of your initial asking all here about, what we assumed to be, an initial inquiry of Clear Day Cable.
If I had the time, I could really make a better case.
Don't put your history of questionable posts onto someone who has the guts to ask you to defend YOUR POSTS?
You asked me, "Slaw, What got into you today"?
I want to know, what has been on to you for quite some time?
Thank you.
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stringreen:
You mentioned, above, if I found one of your posts objectionable to, move along, or ignore....
I have a better idea.. How about you post an idea, based upon YOUR experience, and then advise others, based upon that experience, then be able to BACK UP YOUR POSTS, by EXPLAINING in a way that ALL can understand...
(Is this too much to ask?)
Until, you can accomplish this, (basic task), that we all should adhere to, I really find the Question you asked, objectionable. You, my friend, are responsible for your past posts, not me!!!
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stringreen:
Your (innocent) response to my questioning of some of your recent responses is,... "What happened to you today?"
Common' dude, I see through this and so do others how are interested enough.
I LONG for the day that when/if you ever post again on something you feel/have experience with, ( I do want to hear an original post from you that you can explain in detail, your thoughts/listening , that really has an impact on my decision making, regarding my future purchases.) that, people like me, who seek the truth, will no longer have to wonder, what they just read vs. the overwhelming facts that exist elsewhere, that point to another conclusion.
This statement has relevance! Your statement, "What happened to you today?" is really an INSULT to all of us who take this hobby seriously and expect, somewhat of a reasonable response to a reasonable question!
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..by the way,, I don't read ANYONE coming to your rescue after your long history here?????
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Gee whiz....no I haven't heard the Mag-Lev, so I really can't comment about it except to say, that Harry and I have talked about it...Harry loves it....I have great respect for Harry's ears and business acumen, so I'll go along with what he says....except to say, that I haven't heard it. As far as ClearDay cables...I have never heard such an improvement in my system since I inserted these things. Paul sent me a review/audition sample which when the stylus just entered the groove...even before the music played....I knew this was a winner. I returned the sample in favor of the next higher level which I find even better. Here's something else regarding my evaluations....those who use the word "Dude" have a clear inability for communication et al. Stereo components, like cars, sometimes like wives, certainly like life, requires just getting over it.
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The word "Dude", was an attempt to draw a closer alignment to our "common cause". You, however, somehow, came up with a way for that term to "divide" us.
It is apparent, from your last post, that you still haven't devised a way, (yet), to extricate yourself from the post/s, (you made), stating that you are an a proponent of the mag-level platter, (YOU WERE THE ONE WHO STATED, "GET THE MAG-LEVEL PLATTER") , and you were a proponent of the ceramic platter. (You did not say, that after talking with Harry, "I'll go along with what he says.)" Anyone with the time could easily find this
.
The Clear Day cable: Do you really feel that upon the two weeks that saw us reading your initial post, asking about these cables and after the following two weeks, you should be able to make a clear and defining statement that these cables are in fact, the one's "you'd recommend to us all"?
I, rely on MY own experience, then and only then, do I report my findings.
You, on the other hand, by your own words, rely on others' experience to somehow reinforce the statements you made in the past, all the while, hoping , people like me, would not have the where-with-all, to call you out.
I really do understand that sometimes, things in life are better off, as you say, worth, "getting over it". However, when I log on to a specific website for a specific cause, I hope I can rely upon one who has 3700+ posts to guide me to a RATIONAL/unbiased approach to make costly decisions on my upcoming/lifelong, purchases.
You, my friend, have not in any way, recently, helped this basic need/cause.
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Aww, another internet spat. You guys are so cute. Would you two be so kind as to get a room?
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I only hope that, my use of the phrase "my friend", is not another way for you to find fault with my pointing out YOUR PAST POSTS.
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No room needed on my behalf. Just a reasonable explanation of past history.
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@Slaw. Do you think anyone cares? This is a serious question. Possibly it is is time to let it go. We are all able to judge the worthiness of someone's posts. We don't need someone who obviously carries a grudge against another member continuing to lick at a festering sore in a public forum. Maybe just ignore the offending poster. |
wntrmute2:,
Your response is very enlightening!
(I don't carry a grudge, I'm just looking for reasonable responses/posts that we can accept based upon reasonable, personal history.)
You just don't "get it". IMO.
I really was hoping someone/all would care. Otherwise, all of this is useless. Do you agree with this statement?
If, as you say, "no one cares", why are you even reading this, why are you even a member here?
This is really disconcerting. I only hope others aren't of your mind set.
(All of the above is a serious statement!)
Do you want someone you don't know to make a value judgement/reference of a product that you may consider for your system, based on anyone else judgement as if it was based upon their experience?
Why don't you just write an open letter to MF saying, "Who cares?"
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@Slaw. I care about the opinions in totality and in general. I don’t place much stock in the "recommend me a phono stage, cartridge etc." type posts because they are usually just recommended by a sample of one or so. The "blah, blah, blah" sounds great is really nothing more than "I like what I’m listening to now" opinion. They mean nothing really. What I don’t care for especially is the kind of interactions between you and Stringreen! He says this, you have an issue with what he says. That kind of interaction is especially worthless IMHO. SG has maybe heard a lot of what HW recommends and since he likes that, he feels safe in passing on his opinion. We all know he hasn’t listened to it all. No one has! When anyone says this is a great piece of equipment it can only be in comparison what few thing he or she has compared it to. I happen to belong to a group that has greater than 300 members and have listened to hundreds of systems now. I have developed a few general likes and dislikes. For instance, I have not heard a metal dome tweeter that doesn’t sound harsh to me. I find OTL amplifiers lacking in drive. Solid state tends to sound sterile to me but the really high end stuff is less objectionable than lesser stuff. So I can generalize a bit. Let others do the same. When I read a review of something that is likely to sound counter to my tastes, I will consider my prior experience.
In summary, I do care greatly. What I care about less than anything else is your opinion of others. Not you personally, but anyones’ attacks on the opinions of others! Let it go. It detracts from what can be gleaned from this thread. |
Slaw, you asked the question about platter upgrades six years ago. You got several opinions on what to do, in essence, "keep what you have" was the response. Now six years later you decide, in your opinion, that response was wrong. OK, that's fine. The problem is when other people seem to contradict it, it's not fine. Everyone here is expressing opinion, most of us have limited experience, but want to share our experience with others. That's how we learn. Sometimes the things we learn don't jibe with our experience, so be it. Each of us experiences this hobby of ours in different ways, hence the common phrase "your mileage may vary (YMMV)". In this case you and Stringreen have differing mileage, it's not a big deal.
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My $0.02, having been a VPI owner for many years.
Acrylic beats aluminum. Heavy beats light. The type of bearing doesn’t matter; the quality of the bearing does. Each type of bearing has its advantages and disadvantages.
IMNSHO, and that of some experts, the acrylic/lead (which I use) and super platters are the best. I switched my original TNT bearing for the Mark V, which I think is the best (or nearly the best) non-inverted bearing VPI has made. FYI VPI uses a non-inverted bearing as the main bearing in its best belt driven TT, the Avenger Reference with the magnetic platter.
The personal arguments here are of interest to no one. |
FYI VPI uses a non-inverted bearing as the main bearing in its best belt
driven TT, the Avenger Reference with the magnetic platter.
For clarity, the magnetic drive platter uses a traditional non-inverted oil bath well bearing to support the drive platter which also has an inverted bearing to support and isolate the slave platter. |
Yes, of course. But the bearing that does most of (indeed, almost all of) the turning is the non-inverted bearing. My only point was that there is a popular misconception that inverted bearings are inherently superior and non-inverted bearings are inferior. The excellent performance of the Avenger Reference proves otherwise.
The inverted bearing isolates the slave platter from speed variations of the drive platter, but not from its non-inverted bearing.
As stated, a major advantage of a non-inverted bearing is that it sits in an oil bath.
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.....and the major advantage of an inverted bearing is that the majority of the mass is below the bearing / thrust pad's center of gravity.
I do however, agree with your statement that both inverted and non inverted bearings have advantages and disadvantage and what matters most is the quality of the bearing.
BTW, VPI never made platters with a combination of acrylic / lead or metal, they used Delrin / Acetal. VPI did for a short period of time made platters out of both 100% (frosted) acrylic and carbon infused (Black Knight) 100% acrylic, which by all accounts (including me) were the poorest performing.
The stainless steel TNT Mk5 bearing with the rulon bushing and heavy stainless steel retaining donut is as good as it gets. If you have not done already, I would suggest replacing the 0.25" ball bearing with a ceramic silicon nitride (Si3N4)
grade 3 ball bearing. Also, if you have an extra thrust pad, have a local machine shop drill out the tungsten pad and replace it with a thrust pad made from PEEK.
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Thanks for the bearing tip. It's on its way. About the thrust plate, I'm not so sure. Do you think VPI may have an extra thrust plate?
It may be that you are correct about the Delrin, but I think we and VPI have been using the term "acrylic" for a long time, even if incorrectly. I know that HW has written of the "
acrylic lead combo". Also I Googled "VPI Super Platter" and came up with some VPI promotional material which reads in part, "
Made from an acrylic/stainless/acrylic sandwich (just like the HRX chassis) and weighing in at 25Lbs this is a big bad platter upgrade . . ."
But more importantly, thank you for your contributions here and on the VPI site. |
I like the TNT MK III platter best, of all the VPI platters.
Cork, lead, aluminum, with acrylic top layer. Oil well bearing, machined to perfection, that lasts forever. No tilt or run out, spins true. Simple, effective.
Indented center, with washer, for use with screw down clamp. Pushes record flat without dishing.
Acrylic tops mate better with vinyl, which is acrylic.
Balanced to perfection. They made about 100 per year.
Cost $600 in the late 90's. Would cost a fortune to make today.
Better than the later Super Platter IMO. The Super Platter could not be manufactured without problems.
I do not like metal on the top, because you can not see if the dust is cleaned off.
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I upgraded my Mark II with a Mark V platter and bearing. The bearing upgrade required drilling bearing opening but found a precision machinist to do the job. I replaced the stock springs with Herbie's feet and got the correct height.
You can see the project progression here vpiindustries.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=140&p=1136&hilit=austinbob#p1136
I'm pleased with the upgrade. Still haven't bought a SAMA but still plan to do so.
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When you call VPI next ask them about the Classic platter with the ceramic coating. They made a few of these around the time they were discovering the 3D arm, but never sold them openly. They are a stealth item, so to speak. The ceramic helps damp the all aluminum platter a bit, making it better to my ears.
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