I can clearly conform o_holter´s observations copied below:
"In my system I would say the biggest differences I think I hear are an improvement in the attack and transients in terms of sound. Things that are supposed to be crisp and sharp are more so. Secondly, I have noticed more specificity and depth in the soundstage. Overall, I feel they have made a real improvement and in a way that would be difficult to achieve otherwise. And if that isn't so, well I believe it is so and therefore my enjoyment of my system has improved LOL."
I have experienced the same changes/improvements. I would like to add the effect "a wider soundstage" to the above.
That having said, I am still in the process of moving the transducers placed on the side walls to achieve the best possible result in my room.
At any interest I am willing to report on my experience at the end of my process.
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@o_holter I recently installed a set of HFT's on my Magnepan 20.7s and I also have a set of 12 UEF panels that I borrowed from a friend. Since it is essentially impossible to do an effective before and after test I am completely open to the argument that what I think I am hearing is just a psycho-acoustic delusion. And the fact that I can't think of any real mechanism for those things to make a difference makes that even more likely.
Having said that, the biggest confirmation that these devices do something is that the sound seems to change when you move them around. I have adjusted the positioning from what Synergistic suggests and noticed changes, some for the worse and some for the better. It is still possible what I think I am hearing is just a delusion but the fact that I think I hear differences rather than no change is an argument for them doing something.
In my system I would say the biggest differences I think I hear are an improvement in the attack and transients in terms of sound. Things that are supposed to be crisp and sharp are more so. Secondly, I have noticed more specificity and depth in the soundstage. Overall, I feel they have made a real improvement and in a way that would be difficult to achieve otherwise. And if that isn't so, well I believe it is so and therefore my enjoyment of my system has improved LOL.
I haven't tried the "thick crystal necklace". Maybe it would have the same effect but I suspect not.
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Besides the wide disagreement in this thread, what is the cure, I note the absence of attention to the problem. What exactly was bad, before, that was improved by resonators? For example, was it distortion or limitations in the original recording, or even the room resonances in that recording? If so, is it a problem that should be adjusted?
In my system, I often prefer to keep my sound adjustments minimal. Like platter mats, supposed to help from the "raw" sound of my big alu platter itself. No thank you, to my ears - I like the raw sound better, since even if there is some more distortion, it does contain more musical information, it is not "dumbed down" by a platter mat. I am testing Nobsound springs under my components, compared to spikes or stock feet, a similar case to this debate, some find improvements, others not.
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As a last step I am thinking of inserting a crystal into the "Ozinators". Has any of you made experience with adding crystals to your "Ozinators"?
- It is more impactful to get the ears pierced and wear crystal earrings....the heavier the crystal, the better...
- Wear a thick crystal necklace.
- Strap a crystal holding plate (made of copper) to the top of the head and place a large crystal on top of the head...the heavier the crystal, the better
Here:s what you get ...
Everything becomes crystal clear!! (no surprise there), with completely black background. Speakers and room disappear, soundstage becomes just massive and completely holographic.
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It seems like you have lost interest in the topic "Synergistic Research HTFs and DIY alternatives or ??
I just have one question; have some of you by accident or deliberately destroyed a SR HTF and possibly found out what is inside the HFT´s, if anything at all?
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I have had over 24 HFT's. The only ones I have left are the ones on the ceiling and the only reason I still have those is I can't reach them. Save your money.
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With the help of all of your 230+ tweeds 🙈 and lots of listening, I have reached a very good result.
I am only using DIY brass "Ozinators" (no SR HFT´s).
As a last step I am thinking of inserting a crystal into the "Ozinators". Has any of you made experience with adding crystals to your "Ozinators"?
If yes, did hear any audible difference?
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Your experience is all that counts. Let your ears determine what works.
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Another question concerning HFT´s:
Does it make sense to install a crystal in the HFT´s?
I did read some comments on the forum on this topic, but couldn´t find an unambiguous answer.
If yes, please share your experiences.
Thank you.
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#sgordon1
Thank you for your kind advise.
I started following the placement guide on the Synergistic Research page. As my speakers are standing on the long wall, 180 cm (5,9 feet) away from the side walls, I found that placing the 2x2 HFT´s 55 cm (1,8 feet) to the outer front wall (one a ear height and one 2 feet above) locked the stage centre better than having them in the front wall corners. - Any advise on this?
"Resist the temptation to add too many units." - How many is too many?
Right now I have:
- Front wall middle between the speakers 3 HFT´s - one foot above the floor, one at ear height and one one foot below ceiling.
- Front wall 2x2 HFT´s 1,8 feet outside of the speakers
- On the speakers 5 HFT´s (rear, sides, top and bottom front)
- Above the middle of speakers each one
- Side walls none
- Back wall 4 HFT´s (middle at ear height and 1 one foot below ceiling) + 2x1 mid room height and 1,6 feet from room corners
- Ceiling - 1 right in the middle of the room
Makes all together 19 HFT´s. - Is that too many according to your experience?
"Have an open mind about modifying speaker placement and listening position (including the height of your seating position.)" - I spent quite some time the last years optimizing speaker position (toe-in and rake angle), both using room acoustic apps and my ears, to my listening position. I must say I was very pleased with the sound, but couldn´t resist trying the HFT´s to possible achieve a wider sweet spot.
I am quite limited when it comes to room treatment as my system is installed in my living room.
Further experience is highly appreciated. Thank you.
Rino.
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Follow the placement guides on the Synergistic Research website. Call them if you can’t find these.
Resist the temptation to add too many units.
Start with placing the specialty pieces first.
Have an open mind about modifying speaker placement and listening position (including the height of your seating position.). Align the wide angle pieces carefully to the position of your ears. Small changes can make a big difference in what you hear. Have fun.
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Hello, I am new here on Audiogon. Please allow me to introduce myself briefly:
My name is Rino, I am 66 years of age and I have been fiddling with HiFi for more than 45 years. It has always been my aim to achieve the best possible sound spending the least possible money.
I am fully aware that this thread is a few years old. Despite that I hope to be able to wake some of you up to receive some longtime experience from you on the Synergistic Research HFT "Buttons".
I myself, living in Germany, by coincidence stumbled over this Product a few weeks ago. Now after having installed some DIY HFT “Buttons” - all 4 Levels plus the speaker Kit. I am looking for possible optimizations moving the HFT´s (up/down, back/forth, right and left) to obtain the best results.
My System contains of:
- Turntable Systemdek IIS with Helios Scorpio tome arm and Ortofon MC 20 S cartridge
- Audio Innovations Series 1000 Moving Coil Impenance Matching Transformer
- Cambridge cxc CD drive
- Audio Note DAC 1
- Audio Note Preamp M1 Phono
- Two Audio Innovations S800 Stereo Main Amps, driven in vertical passive bi-amping
- Martin Logan Aerius (not i) - Panels renewed 4 years ago and X-over components upgraded
Thank you in advance for sharing your experience. Highly appreciated.
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@sabai
Could you tell me how you built your own hft?
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Sakso,
Sorry I didn’t see your post. I was very busy in Sept along with being away on vacation the last half of the month. Thanks Todd for stepping in and helping.
Toolbox
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Sakso - the cones you ordered are 9.5mm in diameter. That equals 3/8". The copper pipe caps from the hydraulic/plumbing supply stores are sized by their internal diameter. So the 3/8" pipe caps should do nicely.
Have fun! |
hi toolbox, I found the thread extremely interesting,i ordered 15 hardline copper cones large as ozzy suggested,and i m struggling choosing the copper caps. So length is 1/8"??? diameter is 1/4"??? http://www.ebay.com/itm/311722560634here is the link of my cones. I ve noted the valley hydraulic service company. thks |
That’s great to hear! (See what I did there?) It really is quite amazing that these tiny little things actually make a difference.. thanks for starting this thread. I was interested in DIY HFTs, but couldn’t find anything on the web. Then this lovely thread popped up that same week. Talk about good timing!
I’ve begun to put my resonators in hidden spots around my room where I notice a bit too much sound pressure from low frequencies or audible ringing from highs and they are definitely helping dissipate the problems |
Todd & Ozzy
Thanks for adding so much value to this thread. Just to put s capstone on my participation, I have to admit when I did my final placements I totally forgot about adding any Ozinators to the tops of my Magnepans. Even when I read about your success with them on top of your speakers it didn't initially register any response in me. Finally I asked myself why hadn't I tried them again on top of my speakers too. So, I did!
Talk about your missing piece of the puzzle.
Immediately I was treated to the return of the zing and zip that had been missing in my high frequencies. The overall sound became a little more spacious too.
Funny thing, with the placements on top of my Maggies, pointed directly at the ceiling, I was able to move away from my sole use of the very large, heavy resonators I built and I ended up using two pair of Todd's smaller designs for my four speakers. Todd's resonators were very good at bringing out the life in my high frequencies. I am now one happy clam!
So, I now have twelve Ozinators in my system and a big smile on my face!
Thanks guys.
Happy listening,
and if you're ever in Milwaukee,,,,,,,
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Grammar Trap Alert! Inappropriate use of the word isolated. A further elucidation of your question would be helpful, Tom, although I thought my post was clear. What are you trying to say? Define "it." Define "isolated." Define "emissions." Define "closed system." |
So it cannot be isolated from emissions from within a self contained system? Tom |
roberjerman
Try covering all your room surfaces with aluminum foil - the infamous Faraday cage - complete isolation from all outside electromagnetic fields! A great improvement in low-level detail and sound stage!
Actually, a Faraday cage, while it would certainly help, would not stop the electromagnetc fields produced by electronics and appliances inside the room and would not stop RF from coming in via the power cables. Furthermore, a Faraday cage can't really be very infamous since it is effective for outside EM interference.
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Michael Jackson slept in a Faraday cage! |
Try covering all your room surfaces with aluminum foil - the infamous Faraday cage - complete isolation from all outside electromagnetic fields! A great improvement in low-level detail and sound stage! |
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toddverrone,
I have one on the top, one on the bottom, four on the back, one on the right side of the right speaker, one on the left side of the left speaker. |
geoffkait,
You break me up. Yes, I am addressing you. Lol.
You have no idea what my modalities are yet you proclaim authoritatively "Your "modalities" are outmoded." One of my modalities is SPL metering. Which makes you ... totally outmoded. Lol.
The geoffkait pot really does call the kettle black once again here ... " you are ... unable to deal with any point of view that disagrees with yours." Talk about the backfire effect. Lol.
Nice patronizing comment at the end, though, "I will leave you where I found you". How about a big group hug and let’s move on. Lol.
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I made 4 triangular venturi several years back. One each cut to fit my speakers on top. Because my speakers have no right angles or flat surface I had to seal the area between the edges of the device on its bottom surface and the top of the speaker. I used high quality black electrical tape to make the acoustic seal. I did this so the air had to run thru the venturi. The 2 much larger ones I place into the room on the floor venturi facing up. They work the best when Audio Points are used as mechanical grounds. Again I sealed the air gap between the carpeted floor and the device..this time I used wool felt bought on a role. You can tune the sonic impression of the devices by changing the finish on the surface either flat or shiny rough or smooth..the outside could be finished different than the inside. Thats all. Tom |
Sabai - I've two resonators on the back of my speakers, one on the outer side as one on the top. I've ordered the brass bowls in a smaller size to make smaller resonators. We'll see where those end up.. |
sabai
"geoffkait,
I favor using at least 3 modalities. How do you know how many people are getting "mixed results" and are "forced to go back to ... using only a few resonators"? Have you taken a survey of resonator users? How large was the survey sample? Where is the proof for your categorical claim -- upon which you conclude that "trial and error is inherently flawed"? The proof is in your head and nowhere else.
You are right. I will not accept your shallow and flawed explanation. It obviously does not deserve to be accepted at face value. But, as always, you are convinced that you are the forum authority on whatever you care to expound on. No other possibilities exist after you make your pronouncements from the audio pulpit. Who indeed could care less about audio preachers who twist reason into audio pretzels -- in order to stay in the forum limelight to catch new customers? How’s business this week? Lol."
Sabai, you are a victim of the Backfire Effect and unable to deal with any point of view that disagrees with yours. I wasn’t even addressing you. It all comes down to education and experience. Your "modalities" are outmoded. I will leave you where I found you.
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toddverrone,
You may want to try different placements on speakers -- rear, bottom, sides and top. I use mostly small resonators on my speakers. |
@ozzy I like the resonators on top of the speaker cabinets. They seem to make the ceiling disappear. Thanks for the tip.
Toolbox - I made 10 of the heavier bottom resonators. There's a pic of one on my system page. I was able to press fit them in using a hex socket to push them in and make them expand enough to stay put, even after I had to forcefully yank the socket out.
The sound is different.. the dimensions of the soundstage are the same, but the heft or weight of the sound is greater. Mids and bass are tighter and clearer. I'll use the copper based ones around the room as keep the heavy brass bottoms on my speakers and rack. Thanks for suggesting that base. And I misread your reviews.. the other resonators I made were tied for second. I was wondering why I was liking them so much and if the other base could really be that much better.
This has been fun! We're such dorks. |
How about a big forum hug. Lol. |
geoffkait,
I favor using at least 3 modalities. How do you know how many people are getting "mixed results" and are "forced to go back to ... using only a few resonators"? Have you taken a survey of resonator users? How large was the survey sample? Where is the proof for your categorical claim -- upon which you conclude that "trial and error is inherently flawed"? The proof is in your head and nowhere else.
You are right. I will not accept your shallow and flawed explanation. It obviously does not deserve to be accepted at face value. But, as always, you are convinced that you are the forum authority on whatever you care to expound on. No other possibilities exist after you make your pronouncements from the audio pulpit. Who indeed could care less about audio preachers who twist reason into audio pretzels -- in order to stay in the forum limelight to catch new customers? How's business this week? Lol. |
What we have here is failure to communicate. The reason many who've tried the trial and error technique that you apparently favor get mixed results and are forced to go back to a minimalist approach using only a few resonators is because the trial and error approach is inherently flawed. Obviously you will not accept no for an answer, so be it. Who cares?
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geoffkait,
You stated that "I have always maintained the SPL meter and test tone method is superior to trial and error for any type of resonator, transducer, Brilliant Pebbles included." No problem. This is what you maintain. This is your opinion. You have the right to maintain your opinion just as others have the right to maintain theirs.
I maintain that there is a lot more to resonators/transducers than SPL metering. Metering may be helpful in some cases, to some extent. But there are many possible methodologies or combinations of methodologies that may be used to obtain good results. Metering is just one. If your meter-only system works for you then no one will say no. But what will work best for others is for them to discover, not for anyone else to decide. |
Todd & others,
My link to the big brass caps doesn't work. Here is the path to the location:
Go to: Valleyhydraulic.com
click on "Shop by department"
in the drop down select "Brass fittings"
in the drop down select "Brass pipe fittings"
in the last drop down select "Brass caps & plugs",
This takes you to the parts selection page. The large caps you're looking for are the: Brass 1/4" Female Pipe Caps.
The 1/8" caps are a possibility too, but in my stereo I didn't like them as much. It may may be that some of you have already found these caps by hunting around the site. Yesterday I ordered a few for my other stereo and so I could have some spares. Today, when I went back to the site to write down the path to the caps, I noticed the caps have gone up in price. I guess Valley Hydraulics Co. is not a patron of the arts.
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I have always maintained the SPL meter and test tone method is superior to trial and error for any type of resonator, transducer, Brilliant Pebbles included. My directions on the page for Brilliant Pebbles include the SPL meter recommendation. Some applications for Brilliant Pebbles are straightforward and don’t require a SPL meter, but they might require experimentation. For example, sometimes the pebbles work on top of speaker cabinets, sometimes they don’t; sometimes they work next to small vacuum tubes, sometimes they don’t. Sometimes they work on connectors of IC, sometimes they don’t. There are several sizes of pebbles each with its own set of applications. That’s really what I meant by "some experimentation might be required."
But for room walls and room corners you want the resonators to go where they will do the most good, which is where the peak SPLs are located, including in the 3D space of the room. In room corners on the floor Large BrillIant Pebbles is usually very effective. But SPL meter and test tone sometimes reveals that the exact corner may not be the absolute best in some cases, the very best location might be say, 12" in one direction or the other from the corner. This is also true for Tube Traps.
So one can get good results by trial and error by locating *local maximums* but SPL meter + test tone can locate the *real maximums*. If a customer buys only 3 Brilliant Pebbles he might not require a SPL meter and test tone, but once the number of resonators becomes high using a better methodolgy than trial and error becomes important. Without a methodology like the SPL meter + test tone trying to find the ideal locations for resonators is like trying to solve N number of simultaneous equations in N+5 unknowns. In other words you're gonna need a super computer. Hel-loo!
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geoffkait, it's interesting that toddverrone has reversed himself and is now satisfied that your link answered his question. Which negates my earlier comments based on what he had to say in his original post. But since you mention "some experimentation is usually necessary to establish ideal locations for Brilliant Pebbles in a given room/system" I note that this also applies to resonators -- as ozzy rightly pointed out in an earlier post. |
toddverrone
Geoff - You did. I checked the link and you provide loads of info. Sorry, I should have checked your site. I’m so used to manufacturers who don’t actually get into the science and just make claims on their sites.
I'm not like all those other guys. 😛
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Geoff - You did. I checked the link and you provide loads of info. Sorry, I should have checked your site. I’m so used to manufacturers who don’t actually get into the science and just make claims on their sites. |
Geoff,
Do you have a measured and quoted shear velocity for any and all your Pebbles.? That is after all the basis of their relationship and conversion from compressive waves and also their response to other boundary layers they contact. Tom |
Sabai, again with the stupidity. I answered his questions. What's all the rumpus? |
geoffkait,
As your past history on the forum shows, you try to save face by gliding past the content of my post with a glib response. Same old.
I note that toddverrone has accurately observed that "My statement that I won’t get straight answers is based on my past interactions with you ...".
To which you respond with a typical geoffkait insult about "a load of horse manure" instead of offering a straight answer. We can add this to to your list of favorite forum insults that include knuckleheads, nerds, grasshoppers and little old ladies, among others.
Business must be slow this week. But I’m sure those pebble orders will come rolling in once folks get to read your latest gems on the forum. Keep it up geoffkait. You’re doing great.
Have a nice day, dude. Lol. |
05-18-2017 9:26am
@geoffkait my questions weren’t snarky. Those are actual questions I have. My statement that I won’t get straight answers is based on my past interactions with you and was meant to be playful, not critical.
Actual questions? Won’t get straight answers? Past interactions? Huh? Are you high? I just answered all your actual questions in the link I provided and you come back with a load of horse manure.
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@geoffkait my questions weren’t snarky. Those are actual questions I have. My statement that I won’t get straight answers is based on my past interactions with you and was meant to be playful, not critical.
Toolbox - yeah, that link didn’t work for me either. For my heavier resonators, I’ve been using a similar brass cap that is shorter. That way there depth of the resonators is similar and the only difference is the base. I posted a pic of the heavier resonator on my system page.
@ozzy I tried a couple on top of the speakers and gave it a quick, non critical listen last night. Initial impressions are favorable! |
Theaudiotweak
I have to back you up on your past statement of 05-16-2017 8:53am
"If you have placed devices on flat surfaces or walls and you are pleased with the outcome you can take this whole thing to a higher level by removing adhesive damping materials and attaching your device right to the wall or other surface. You can do this with the aid of a threaded insert placed directly into the wall and your device also threaded screwed into the wall. You can now adjust the resonance point on the wall by ever so slightly adjusting the tension of your device to the wall or surface. 1/16 of a turn can be clearly discerned..or even much less depending on the surface."
I had a very similar expirience with the very first resonators I built. They were quite complicated to build and I didn’t go any further in developing them because they were too much work to put together. Basically, they had a very small nail holding a cone to a small wooden cap. The nail protruded through the bottom of the wooden cap, so I just pushed the nail into my drywall wherever I wanted to place a resonator. The nail held the cone and cap firmly against the wall, but I didn’t have control of the tightness like I would have had with your screw suggestion.
I did notice that when held tight against the wall with no adhesive, the effect was quite pronounced. In my case - too pronounced. Ultimately, I decided I didn’t want any resonators on any of my walls. I only want to get a small tweek out of these things, but someone looking a more dramatic addition to their sound should give them a try. If you already have some cones all you need is a few small screws. I tried sticking up cones with no bases as an experiment but I used Blu Tack to place them. Screwing cones directly onto a wall might be well worth the effort.
Unfortunately, I'm really happy with my setup of resonators and I've settled into listening to music rather than playing around with my system. I guess someone else will have to take up the torch on this one.
Good idea! Sorry it took me so long to reply. I was a little busy.
Thanks,
Toolbox
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