Placement tips for Synergistic Research HTFs

How about a big forum hug. Lol.

geoffkait,

This just in -- geoffkait confuses dates with laws of physics. Lol.

I make my own for about $1 each. I suggest looking up Franck Tchang's placement drawing on his site -- for his acoustic resonator bowls. I think SR followed Franck's lead here with their HFT placement suggestions. After dealing with the walls I suggest sticking them to various components and room treatment devices. Trial and error will get you where you want to go.

This is really a trial and error thing. For instance, I get better results with my HFTs placed beside the tweeter and the woofer. Only you will be able to figure out what works best in your system. But starting with Franck Tchang's drawing is a good place to start. Then look at the Zilplex, SR and Audio-Magic charts for more ideas.

geoffkait,

You stated, "If you’re using panels the acoustic waves will obviously set up in the room quite a bit differently than conventional box speakers. Thus take any diagrams with a grain of salt."

Why "take any diagrams with a grain of salt" -- with the added inevitability of "thus"? Why not think for yourself and try them out? If you have panels, what have you got to lose? The 4 manufacturers who have published diagrams may not be wrong, or totally wrong, in the case of panels. And you may want to email them and get their opinions. They may in fact have experience with panels. So, my advice is to take the various diagrams any way you wish. They may work for you or not. Or parts may work for you. Unless you have actually gone to the trouble and done the work, and not simply speculated about how things will "thus" turn out, it could go either way. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. 

You stated, "Also keep in mind Tchang’s diagram is indicated on his web site as pertinent ONLY to his Silver and Gold tiny bowls, so I suggest using the diagram with that in mind."

If you check Franck's site you will see that this statement is simply incorrect. His 8 diagrams clearly pertain to all of his "tiny" bowls. And who is to say his diagrams will not apply to other resonators, as well? In fact, his diagrams work very well for my DIY resonators. YMMV, of course. So, I suggest keeping an open mind by using the diagrams without any preconceptions. After all, what have you got to lose? They will either work for you or not. It is also possible that parts may work for you. Until you do the work, making a statement about grains of salt is simply an "in my opinion" kind of thing. Each person needs to do the work in his/her system to find out if this is true or not. And, as I said earlier, there is a lot of trial and error here after you experiment with the diagrams.

You stated, "Of course the best way to locate the ideal positions for any resonator(s) is to employ a test tone and SPL meter." If you add "in my opinion" here, as well, I do not think anyone's feelings would be at all hurt. IMO. Lol.

toddverrone,

There are other products out there that have proved superior in my system to those that Ozzy recommends. They may be great for a lot of systems but you might want to check out various kinds of cones and cups to see what works best in your system.

geoffkait,

Your repeated use of epithets does not reflect well on your contributions to the forum. "Grasshopper, knuckleheads, nerds, little old ladies." What do think you are gaining by being condescending and insulting? New customers for your $100 resonator cups? It behooves us all to show respect for one another here. Of course, I don't take this personally because I know it comes from someone who seems to be "challenged" in this regard, lamentably.

You originally stated, "Also keep in mind Tchang’s diagram is indicated on his web site as pertinent ONLY to his Silver and Gold tiny bowls". In fact, if you read Franck's site closely, this is not indicated anywhere on his. You have stated Franck's diagrams do not "apply" to other resonators. But Franck himself does not say this. Franck obviously created the diagrams for his own products. But this does not mean, ipso facto, that they cannot be used successfully with other resonators. The fact is that they can and are being used with other resonators with very good results -- in spite of your statement that they do not "apply" to others, which you falsely attribute to Franck..

Also, Franck Tchang produces 2 models with 5 kinds of bowls for each model, including platinum and copper. So, your statement regarding 2 and then 3 bowls was obviously inaccurate, as I pointed out.

You recently stated, "Exactly. And his bowls are gold and silver and platinum. His diagrams don’t apply to cheap DIY knock offs. Hel-loo! Your comments remind me that you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. Look within, grasshopper." I reflect this comment back to you -- "Cast out the mote that is in thine eye." Luke 6:42. 

Your reference to "cheap knock offs" is cute. What difference does it make how cheap a "knock off" is, if it works? Perhaps it makes a difference to makers like yourself who are trying to sell $100 resonators. It hurts to hear that a $1 "knock off" offers stunning results. In fact, others are picking up on this and are also getting good results -- belying your negative statements. Are only manufacturers of expensive products entitled to make claims regarding resonators?

Your reference to horses and water deserves a hearty lol. It is obvious that $1 water is too cheap for someone who is trying to sell water at $100 a cup.

geoffkait,

Sorry -- you are completely wrong.

You stated, "See below for examples from Franck Tchang’s website diagram and instructions for using HIS acoustic resonators. The steps of the diagram are specific to his gold, silver, platinum and basic models." Specific, yes, but not exclusive to his models -- as you are implying. Franck Tchang does not say they are exclusive to his resonators, anywhere on his site. Franck's diagrams were obviously made for his products. After all, who makes diagrams for the products of others? Duh. But nowhere on his site does he say his diagrams will "only" be effective for "his" products and cannot be used for other resonators. You are obviously putting works into his mouth. 

You stated, "there are simply too many variables for guessing to be a good choice ...". Guessing, a.k.a. trial and error -- especially when done very systematically -- is one of the most important ways that audiophiles use to improve SQ. Using equipment is another way. Some use both. You may not like the trial and error method. Up to you. You have the right to your method. No one questions that. But others have the right to theirs, as well -- and theirs may be very successful for them.

Your "logical and reasonable" approach is only one of many possible approaches. There are many avenues. I can afford 70 of my resonators for $1 apiece. In fact, that's not "SO MANY". I will be adding more soon. $70 is $30 less than a single geoffkait resonator. I know. I know. Yours are the best in the universe. You can even quote your own site. Lol.

You stated, "So, obviously his diagrams are NOT intended to be universal." Who said they were universal? No one but you either said or implied this. And why is it obvious his diagrams are not "intended" to be used by others? This is one more example of your creative writing ability -- putting words into people's mouths.

How do you know what Franck Tchang "intended" here? Are you a mind reader, playing amateur psychologist once again on the forum? Watch out. If you keep this up you could be charged with practicing medicine without a license. Lol.

I tell you what. Franck Tchang says "email me" on his site. Why don't you email him and get it from the horse's mouth -- instead of from the other side of the horse. And then report back to us what he replies.

Franck's diagrams may be used to good effect in some systems. Why not let everyone decide for themselves instead of trying to tell everyone what to do? Let each person find out what works best for them and what approach or approaches to take. Leaving all options on the table is the very best approach, IMHO. I know. I know. Your way is the best way -- and the only way to get there. Along with your $100 resonators. Lol.

toddverrone,

With geoffkait I am having some fun -- a bit of comic relief -- as well as helping him out by attracting prospective customers. I firmly believe in social service. Lol.

You ask about working on different sizes of HFTs. I am working on this now. I have supplies on order.

Regarding the OP, I have been using 2 sizes of copper cones with one size of copper caps. I have other sizes on order and hope to get equally good results. Frankly, I have been really surprised at how well things have gone so far. The break-through was using Franck Tchang's diagrams. This led me to develop a whole new kind of resonator (2 different sizes). I encourage everyone to let their imaginations run wild regarding how to make resonators and where to place them. Of course, if measuring devices help the process, then by all means use them too.

geoffkait,

You stated, "A very perceptive question, why shouldn’t there be different sizes? Why are all of the original Tchang tiny bowls all the same diameter? Why wouldn’t he have a whole range of sizes? And why are all tiny bowls from other manufacturers all approximately the same diameter as Tchang’s? Did they all just blindly copy his? And why is bass performance affected so much by the tiny little bowls?"

If you are really interested in learning more about why Franck Tchang does what he does, why not email him and ask him, and report back here what his response is? After all, he does say "email me" right up front on his site. That way, there would be no more need for all the speculation and blah, blah, blah.

And then you stated, "This just in!" ... quoting an article from 6 Moons. Kindly check the date of the article. This fresh news hot off the press is from February 2007 -- "just in" a decade ago. Thanks for keeping us all up to date.

toolbox149,

I am in the process of doing experiments similar to yours. I will be very interested in knowing how things work out with you.

geoffkait,

Typical of you here -- getting snidely personal when you don’t get your way -- in a hopeless attempt to save a bit of face.

Anyway, I am very careful when I use the words "just in". You should be more careful next time. Oh, by the way, my wife won't let me date anymore. Lol.

geoffkait,

I know you are only here for intellectual reasons and that commercial interests have never crossed your mind. But you are attracting a lot of interest here and I am sure there are many people who are impressed with your expertise. I have an idea. Why don't you post a hyperlink direct to your order page so we can order some of your pebbles and your tiny $100 resonator cups. Lol.

abnerjack,

I’m glad you liked my postings. Loved your comments and your story -- great fun and spot on. When geofflait has only this to respond "Ya gotta love love it when one person without moral scruples pats another one on the back. Like peas and carrots." ... then you know we’re hitting the poor nail on the head and are having a great time in the process. Lol. But I am very sorry to hear that you have no moral scruples, abnerjack. Not good.

Concerning the OP, let’s look at the risk/reward ratio by examining the math for "tiny cheap knock off" resonators. Let’s say you want to start off with what SR calls 5-packs. Let’s say you want to do 4 levels. That means 20 HFTs -- at a cost of $1,200 to $2,000 -- or $2,000 for the folks selling their "tiny original maximum $100 resonator cups". It will cost you about $20 to put 20 of your own together. You just saved yourself from $1,180 to $1,980. OK -- let’s say it takes double the number to get the job done. Well, you’re 20 bucks poorer -- while saving thousands, once again.

The math tells us that the risk/reward ratio is a no-brainer -- unless you are not the DIY type, unless you trust that spending thousands on "original" resonators will get you results that are far better than "cheap knock offs" -- justifying the outlay of big bucks -- or unless money is no object.

For the average audiophile on a limited budget, may I suggest that trying the "tiny cheap knock off" option is a viable alternative that can reap stunning results if done well. I suggest getting creative to help improve the SQ in your system. What have you got to lose?

I am also at a loss on this point. But I don't worry too much about the why and the wherefore in this regard. For me, the main thing is to discover what works, whatever your approach.

As I say, for me the bottom line is the music. As long as the SQ improves I am happy with things whether or not I understand what is causing the changes.

toolbox149,

Thanks for this link -- never seen these before. Now we're getting creative! As I have been saying for a long time, what have you go to lose by letting your imagination run away with you for a while? $1 apiece. This may not please some audio makers, but many of us do not have the money to throw at their expensive resonators, and many of us balk at spending the outlandish prices they are asking, even if we can afford them. Let's keep this coming.

geoffkait,

You break me up. You’re way better than sit-com! How about a group hug. Lol.

geoffkait,

What happened to your group hug? Back to your good old self again. Lol. I was worried you might have had a change of heart. Lol.

abnerjack got it right when he said the following:

"Many years ago, when I was a wee lad, my family had a dog that would just not stop barking. When I asked my dad why that might be, he said that the dog barked "because he likes to hear his head roar". geoffkait is your dog. I think he has gone running back to his den, but watch out, he may jump out and bite you in the ankles at any time." geoffkait has emerged from his den, nipping at our ankles. This is better than sit-com. Lol.

toolbox149,

You could save yourself a lot of time, trouble and money by purchasing a single geoffkait original tiny resonator cup for $100 that will do the job of dozens or your tiny knock-off resonators. Lol.

geoffkait,

I guess that means Franck Tchang has no idea what he is doing -- because I am following his diagrams, to begin with. And since I have had stunning improvement in SQ with my own placements I guess that means I have ended up nowhere -- just as you predicted. Keep it coming. Lol. 

geoffkait,

With all the great advice you have to give you must be overworked filling orders for your $100 original tiny resonator cups. You'd think such a busy fellow would be preoccupied with business instead of pontificating on the forum. Lol.

I get the best effect by putting my resonators on the front of my speakers. I also use them on many room treatment devices and the results are stunning. But you need to experiment a lot to find the best placement since some placements can actually have a negative effect on SQ.

If you follow Franck Tchang's diagrams regarding the high placement locations you may get good results. Regarding cones, it may be hard to the 10mm x 12mm beading cones that I mostly use. But this style on Ebay also works well for many locations. They protrude from the copper caps, but that is not a problem.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/20mm-Bali-Style-100-Solid-COPPER-Fancy-Handmade-HONEYCOMB-CONE-Cap-Beads-16p...

Typo above ... this should read "... it may be hard to find ... "

toolbox149,

Interesting that you are reporting this. The sound in my system has not been thrown off except in a minor way with a couple of placements. Easily rectified. 

You mention "transducers/resonators". Does anyone out there believe that these devices are other than resonators? A transducer "converts a signal in one form of energy to a signal in another" form [from Wikipedia]. Are these devices really on the same level as a microphone or speaker? 

geoffkait,

Drum roll ... Lol. There is a tiny grill with tiny crystals in HFT-X. But is this actually a tiny speaker? There is no product information mentioning this on the SR site. I would be very glad to see the documentation -- not just an affirmation from a third party. Oh, by the way, nowhere on his site does Franck Tchang mention the word "transducer". Isn't it obvious? Lol.

goeffkait,

Hel-loo! Lol. You mean you don't know the difference between transducers, radiators and resonators? Isn't it obvious that not being distance dependent is not the definition of a transducer? And can one really talk about radiating acoustic energy with additional acoustic information being the outcome? Hel-loo! Lol.

geoffkait,

You stated, "Sabai, thanks for the excellent non-answer!" You’re welcome ... to read my answer again. You will see that it addressed the illogic of your statements. When you don’t like what you hear you call it a non-answer and neatly sidestep the content. Very clever.

You stated, "Here’s a little hint, since I’m in a generous mood ... " How about a group hug after you climb down from your pedestal. Lol.

toddverrone,

It is indeed possible to see photons in motion. This new technology will explain it for you.

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2011-12/trillion-frame-second-camera-captures-photons-moving-through-space-slow-mo

You asked, "if photons have zero rest mass, Mo, does that mean they have mass when they’re moving?

What logic leads you to ask this? If photons have no mass that means they have no mass under all conditions. They do not suddenly acquire mass then magically lose that mass. This defies logic -- unless there are laws at work of which I am unaware.

geoffkait,

A trick question (I admit) -- how come you’re so smart and everyone else is so stupid? You don't have to provide an answer. We already know. Lol. I understand why you hang around here all the time strutting your stuff. And photons have nothing to do with it. Don't worry. I won't tell a soul. The forum is the best free marketing tool a pebble salesman could ever wish for. Your tiny colored pebbles must be selling like hot cakes. Lol.

geoffkait,

Bingo ... the fish took the bait ... and is once again eager to bestow a gift upon the forum that even Einstein could not conceive (unless he can document where Einstein made this declaration) -- The Law of the Transmutational Nature Photons -- brought to us by the world’s most renowned expert on this unfathomable subject -- right here on the forum -- after a big forum group hug. Lol.

geoffkait,

No need to be so touchy. Is your forum ID not geoffkait? Did I get the spelling wrong? Oh I see, we are no longer allowed to use our forum ID here anymore ... you have officially declared. Well, in this case, you had better stop calling me Sabai and toddverrone by his ID, etc.

Perhaps you should consider another line of work where your style will not be cramped by inconvenient comments from other forum members. Lol.

Ah, name calling, a subject you seem to know something about ... calling fellow members "knuckleheads, little old ladies, nerds", etc. Have you forgotten which pot is calling the kettle black here? How about another warm group hug ... Lol.

geoffkait,

Maybe will should all be required to mention your company name, as well, when we post here -- as part of The Big Group Hug -- with the ultimate intention of helping needy forum members. Lol.

geoffkait,

I am glad you keep those compresses on hand. I would not like to hear you had a medical emergency. Lol.

geoffkait,

As I stated earlier, if you are so interested in the full story, why don’t you email Franck Tchang instead of simply speculating via "curve balls" and other teasers? After all, as I pointed out here earlier, Franck Tchang invites people to email him on his site. But you continually avoid contacting him directly. I wonder why? What have you got to lose? Why not go ahead -- and fill us in from the horses’s mouth -- not simply via quoting the commentary from 6 Moons whose highly impressive alleged Ph.D credentials you refer to seem to have come via The Machina Dynamica Institute of Technology -- lol -- which transforms this discussion into third parties commenting on the opinions of highly impressive credential-deficient second parties to impress other third parties. Hardly the most direct way of going about this, in my opinion -- unless one is in this simply to keep the ball rolling to further one’s already obvious agenda -- with full disclosure having been repeatedly offered up for public view.

geoffkait,

We are all happily shilling for you here. We love putting up with you -- which amounts to the same thing in the end. You mean you haven’t noticed? Lol.

Regarding "Your real talent ... ". Thank you for your compliment. Regarding "knocking off someone else’s ideas with cheap imitations ... ". In case you didn’t notice ... that’s what this thread and its sister thread are all about ... DIY and finding the best placements -- so we don’t have to spend $100 for each of your tiny original resonator bowls. Lol.

By the way, did you "knock off" yours -- and decide to charge $100 apiece to avoid the accusation they are cheap? Or were they simply the product of your own creative imagination and you’re doing everyone a favor by only charging $100 each for them? Lol.

Regarding "blindly following others’ diagrams ... " you must have seen my white cane in the corner of my Virtual System photo. This explains why I always follow the ideas of others blindly. Lol."

Regarding "All relevant ideas .. are already in the public domain ... " Well, well. You seem to be reading minds once again. How many times does this make it? This time it’s Franck Tchang’s mind that is the subject of your formidable psychic powers. But perhaps you might care to confirm this assertion with Franck himself -- in case you may be wrong. I know, I know. You’re never wrong. And you have no intention of contacting Franck Tchang. You might end up losing a bit of face -- or ending up with a bit of egg on it.

As I say, this is better than sit-com -- and provides the much needed social service of helping out a fellow member in need ... of new customers. Lol.

Keep it coming, geoffkait. You’re doing great.

geoffkait,

How about you? Lol.

Toolbox149,

Some of my resonators are also very heavy and find their way to the floor from time to time. I always keep extra Blu Tack handy.

I agree with ozzy who says that "placement experimentation is the key." I am using 8 different kinds of DIY resonators in my system based on the HFT idea, with at least one more to come. I have also designed a unique resonator in 3 sizes, not based on the HFT design. I think it is becoming clear that the challenge is to find what works best for each one of us since each of us has a different system and a different room, along with different goals and budgets.

Whether this entails using measuring devices, guides, suggestions, diagrams or your own creativity, or a combination of some or all the above, is an individual choice and may depend on many factors. Since this can involve walls, floors, ceilings, furniture, components, speakers, wires and cables, tweaks and accessories the possibilities and permutations are nearly endless, depending on how far you want to take this down the road.

If you add magnets and crystals to the mix then you're in for the long haul. Obviously, time and patience are the two keys to success. It can take months or even years to develop all this. Since everyone's systems and rooms are different, and since our goals may also vary, it is clear that there is no formula that will apply to all situations. This is very much an individual endeavor. It is up to each of us to discover what works best in our own situation. Ozzy hit the nail on the head regarding placement experimentation.

geoffkait,

"opined" ... Lol. In case you may not have noticed, I was quoting ozzy in my post so you'll have to deal with him -- if you dare. In case you may not have noticed, nowhere in my post did I say "placement only" ... but misquoting is one of your favorites ... as we have seen many times ... same old geoffkait ... cows coming home to roost ... I didn't know cows roosted ... guess you haven't visited a farm lately ... or maybe they do roost on your farm ... which would not surprise me ... Lol.

"Time consuming and ineffective." Not sure if ozzy would agree. But I don’t think he will bother to comment. I don’t think he enjoys this as much as I do. Lol. In any case, how do you know what is effective in ozzy's system, or mine? Oh, I know ... you're a practicing telepathic room treatment specialist ... running a very busy operation that leaves you with half the day to hang around here beating the forum bush for new customers ... with full disclosure. Keep it coming Dynamica. You're doing great. As Woody Allen once said, 50% of success is showing up. We can always count on you to show up. Lol.

geoffkait ... "React so violently ... " Lol. You break me up. You may not have been addressing me but I was indeed addressing you ... Lol. I guess you must have been addressing ozzy -- who I doubt will bother to chime in ... and who can blame him? Lol.

geoffkait,

Were you addressing me this time? Lol. I must be very confused -- if you say so. There you go gain trying to save face. You already put your foot in your mouth so no need to put words in your mouth. Lol. Same old geoffkait trying to beat the forum bush to make a living -- whatever it takes. Speaking of which, how are your tiny little $100 knock-off resonator bowls doing these days? Must be stiff competition from all those $1 knock-offs. Lol.

As for accusing toddverrone of being snarky ... there's the pot calling the kettle black once again. We've seen this a few times from you on the forum. Looks like your cows are coming home to roost once again. Lol.

Have a nice day. Lol.

geoffkait,

As your past history on the forum shows, you try to save face by gliding past the content of my post with a glib response. Same old.

I note that toddverrone has accurately observed that "My statement that I won’t get straight answers is based on my past interactions with you ...".

To which you respond with a typical geoffkait insult about "a load of horse manure" instead of offering a straight answer. We can add this to to your list of favorite forum insults that include knuckleheads, nerds, grasshoppers and little old ladies, among others.

Business must be slow this week. But I’m sure those pebble orders will come rolling in once folks get to read your latest gems on the forum. Keep it up geoffkait. You’re doing great.

Have a nice day, dude.  Lol.

geoffkait, it's interesting that toddverrone has reversed himself and is now satisfied that your link answered his question. Which negates my earlier comments based on what he had to say in his original post. But since you mention "some experimentation is usually necessary to establish ideal locations for Brilliant Pebbles in a given room/system" I note that this also applies to resonators -- as ozzy rightly pointed out in an earlier post.

geoffkait,

You stated that "I have always maintained the SPL meter and test tone method is superior to trial and error for any type of resonator, transducer, Brilliant Pebbles included." No problem. This is what you maintain. This is your opinion. You have the right to maintain your opinion just as others have the right to maintain theirs.

I maintain that there is a lot more to resonators/transducers than SPL metering. Metering may be helpful in some cases, to some extent. But there are many possible methodologies or combinations of methodologies that may be used to obtain good results. Metering is just one. If your meter-only system works for you then no one will say no. But what will work best for others is for them to discover, not for anyone else to decide.

geoffkait,

I favor using at least 3 modalities. How do you know how many people are getting "mixed results" and are "forced to go back to ... using only a few resonators"? Have you taken a survey of resonator users? How large was the survey sample? Where is the proof for your categorical claim -- upon which you conclude that "trial and error is inherently flawed"? The proof is in your head and nowhere else.

You are right. I will not accept your shallow and flawed explanation. It obviously does not deserve to be accepted at face value. But, as always, you are convinced that you are the forum authority on whatever you care to expound on. No other possibilities exist after you make your pronouncements from the audio pulpit. Who indeed could care less about audio preachers who twist reason into audio pretzels -- in order to stay in the forum limelight to catch new customers? How's business this week? Lol.

toddverrone,

You may want to try different placements on speakers -- rear, bottom, sides and top. I use mostly small resonators on my speakers.

toddverrone,

I have one on the top, one on the bottom, four on the back, one on the right side of the right speaker, one on the left side of the left speaker.

geoffkait,

You break me up. Yes, I am addressing you. Lol.

You have no idea what my modalities are yet you proclaim authoritatively "Your "modalities" are outmoded." One of my modalities is SPL metering. Which makes you ... totally outmoded. Lol.

The geoffkait pot really does call the kettle black once again here ... " you are ... unable to deal with any point of view that disagrees with yours." Talk about the backfire effect. Lol.

Nice patronizing comment at the end, though, "I will leave you where I found you". How about a big group hug and let’s move on. Lol.