Ozzy just replied to a different thread and I'll repost it here because this is the kind of info I'm looking to acquire.
"Try placing them also on your speakers and equipment on all for sides. With speakers you can even place one on the top.
ozzy"
Any other slightly unique placements - good or bad (it can be beneficial to find out what can degrade performance as well as improve performance), would be very welcome.
A few starters:
I noticed the bass got clearer when I did this.....
If you want to make your soundstage deeper try this...
When I positioned a couple of HFTs 'X' inches from the floor the result was a much softer sound than when they were 'Y' inches from the floor.
Thanks,
Toolbox
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Todd;
You can find out about Ozzy's DIY resonators (or Ozinators, as I am calling them) if you read the thread titled. "Synergistic Research HFT + FEQ".
I think Ozzy started to write about them on page two and had a lengthy conversation with Sabai about them.
Toolbox
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Geoffkait;
Yeah, I figure working with the Magnepans is going to be a challenge. Especially, since I have a quad set-up which means I have four Maggie 1.7s to deal with, plus two large subwoofer enclosures.
I like Ozzy's sugestión of attaching some of the HFTs and some resonators (Ozinators) around the sides and top of the speakers themselves. Attaching them to digital components also sounds intriguing.
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Todd,
I had a big reply ready but Audiogon lost it Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
I will be building three different size Ozinators. The regular size plus two smaller sizes. I want to find out if smaller sizes affect different frequencies. I will report.
If you don't have a place to buy cones I bought mine at: Flyfishers.com
For anyone buying cones please keep in mind that for under $5.00 you will be getting a PACKAGE of cones. Most likely 24 cones in a pack. The write-ups are not clear.
So don't do what almost did and order 12 cones not realizing I was ordering packages. I almost ended up with just under 300 cones. ;<)
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Ozzy
Yes I'm going to try that. I don't know if they will fit together though. Stay tuned.
I like Ozinators because it's a nice tip-of-the-hat to the first guy I saw doing this, and also it keeps you away from anyone hastling you based on trademark infringement. And according to Geoffkait, they resonate.
Todd,
Hold off on ordering very small cones until I get my caps. I ordered the cones from Flyfishers.com yesterday and they arrived today. The small cone sizes are VERY, VERY small. I want to see if they will fit a small cap before I tell you to procede.
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Last night I found some new cones to try out. They are bigger than the usual large/ 1/4" cones. These are almost 3/8".
I ordered a package of these "big game hunters" and will be trying these out as well.
My big unknown is if the two different sized caps I on order, will match up with the four different size cones I ordered.
I will keep you all posted.
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Correction, I ordered my cones from: theflyfishers.com
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Jkbtn, Toddverrone, Ozzy & all;
Thanks for the info. Since they're so inexpensive I ordered three of the sizes. The 10mm, 12mm &14mm sizes. 14mm - those are huge! Easily more than a half inch wide! I can see why you would need a 3/8" copper cap. Did you notice if the size of your resonators impacts different frequencies than other resonators? I'm wondering if something that big might have a greater effect on lower frequencies. On the other hand, could their size allow them to help bring out higher frequencies without adding harshness? Do you have other sizes and/or types of resonators?
I was all pumped yesterday because I was finally getting my 1/8" brass caps. Unfortunately, 1/8" brass caps I got are still too large for 1/4" fly fishing cones. I also have a bunch of different kinds of cones ordered, that are larger than 1/4". Hopefully, one of those will fit the brass caps better. All I know is after this experimentation is through, I'm going to have to take up fly fishing.
I was also really hoping that my SR HFTs would have arrived this last weekend. It would have been nice to play with them for an entire weekend before trying alternatives. Unfortunately, the HFTs didn't arrive until Monday. I've always been too curious to wait, so even without the proper parts to assemble some Ozinators I forged ahead and created a bunch of alternative resonators.
I bought some 3/8" & 1/2" wood "buttons" (that's the actual name - button). These wooden buttons look like small, low-rise mushroom heads that are cut off with only about 1/4" of the attached stem remaining. As you may remember I have purchased three sizes of fly fishing cones. I bought the 1/4" cones (the large size) recommended by Ozzy, plus a pack of small sized cones and a pack of extra small sized cones. For the 1/4" cones I bought a package of "linoleum nails" (size 16 x 5/8" long). I used a 1/16" drill and drilled a pilot hole straight down, through the middle of a 1/2" mushroom head and with the aid of a small hammer plus some carpenters counter-sinks I used a linoleum nail to go through the hole of the cone into the drilled hole of the button and securely fastened the cone to the top of the button. When the cone is fastened tight against the top of the button, about 3/8" of the nail will stick out through the bottom of the button. You can either grind that off or use it to attach the resonator to your wall. The nail is so small that pulling the resonator back
out of the wall will leave no noticeable hole. (Before assembly, you can also paint the wood button the same color as your wall so it will be hardly noticeable when in place).
For the small and extra small sized cones I used a similar cone fastening technique, only I used the smaller 3/8" wood buttons. I bought a pack of Wire Brads (size 19 x 1/2" long) and used a 1/16" drill to drill a pilot hole down into the button. With this size brad you can only start the pilot hole - do not drill all the way through the button. The 1/16" drill hole is bigger than the brad so if you drill all the way through, the brad won't hold the cone tight to the button. Only start the hole, drilling down no more than 1/4". Using a small hammer and carpenters counter-sinks, I was able to fasten the cone tight against the button.
To attach them to the walls I used a little pushing force and then finished with the carpenters counter-sinks to drive in the part of the nail sticking out of the bottom of the button, thus securing the resonator to the wall. For any non-wall application I'm going to grind off the part of the nail that sticks out of the bottom of the button, pull the brad and the cone out from the button, and then coat the brad with superglue and reassemble. Then I'll just use my Blue Sticky Stuff to attach them.
This actually isn't a lot of work if you have the tools. Outside of a drill and a bench grinder (which aren't really expensive) everything is low cost and all can be purchased at a big-box store. The buttons will be found in the same area as wooden dowels and small wooden decorative trim pieces. The #19 brads and the #16 nails will be in the nail and screws dept., and a package of three different sized carpenters counter-sinks can be found in the tools dept. for under $8.
So OK, OK, how do they sound? Well, I finished about 16 of the regular cone size resonators, about 10 of the small and 6 of the extra small. In my listening room I have corner bass traps at the top and the bottom of all four corners. They are approx. 18" wide by 16" tall. I started by listening to a couple of songs to get my ears ready. Stopping the music I then attached 8 of the regular sized resonators, one on each side of the 4 bottom bass traps, about 12" up from the floor. With just these 8 cones in place, I replayed the last song. Whoa! While these 8 didn't do much to my soundstage they sure defined my bass response. As an ex bass player I can appreciate a more accurate bass signal so this was a delight. I would say these resonators had about 2/3 of the effect as putting in the bass traps.
Now I had a little more bass than I would like, so on went more of the resonators. Using some of the standard, suggested placements for these kind of tweeks I added 12 more of the resonators on the front wall, the back wall, side walls and 8 more on the sides and tops of all four of my Magnepans.
Now I had a positive improvement on the entire frequency spectrum. The bass was no longer drowning out the rest. The biggest improvement, for me, is that the individual instruments are much more clearly defined and because of that the individual parts are more separate, identifiable, and remain defined. Even complex music now has a reduced tendency to have individual parts sometimes blend together into mush. And this was without using any of the SR HFT suggested placements. I was waiting for the HFTs to arrive.
On Monday, when the 15 HFTs finally arrived I was able to add them to all the HFT recommended spots. With the HFTs in place the soundstage became more exact. Instruments were now much more firmly in one place. This has been somewhat difficult for my quadraphonic system. While the focus of the individual instruments became tighter and more clear I did not notice a big change in soundstage width or height, but since my quad system already has the soundstage and ambiance nailed perfectly (IMHO) I was glad they didn't change much. The only change I did notice was the stage and especially the singer moved closer to me - not something I want. Instead of sounding like I'm in the 30th row of a larger concert hall, which I love, it now sounds like I'm in the 15th row. This might be because I'm playing the music just a touch louder, making vocals sound more immediate. I think I can fiddle with things and get back to my preferred seat in the 30th row.
(Ed. Note - Warning My first degree was an associate degree in music and while my principal instrument was the bass I had studied and was continuing toward my bachelors at the Wisconsin Conservatory of Music focused on composition and arranging. I say this so you'll know, I LOVE detail in music. I love all the different timbers, attacks, phrasings and vocal inflections I can possibly get. You may not like this much detail in your life, soooo YMMV.
I used all three sizes of my resonators and 15 HFTs. With all of them in place my initial impression is that the sound is fuller, crisper, more robust (in a good way), more immediate, and much more defined than before. Meanwhile, although I really appreciate the effect these had on my low and mid range frequencies, the upper frequencies became a bit too brittle for me. Not harsh, but instruments and vocals had a bit too much sharpness and lost a little musicality.
Playing with the locations of the resonators and HFTs I found that moving them lower diminished the harshness of the upper frequencies. Moving a few of the high ones to lower positions reduced the upper harshness to where I started to enjoy the music more. I still have more tweeking to do in this area, but my impression is moving these pieces around may make it possible to ultra-fine tune your listening experience in order to hit that perfect position between detailed but not sweet enough, and sweet but not detailed enough. I think I'll be able to come very close to that sweet spot.
A couple of requests - does anyone have any suggestion as to any resonator position that will appear to push my soundstage back away from me? Also, can I attach pictures to any of my messages somehow, or do I have to post them in the system picture area?
Meanwhile, the Postman just delivered a package that contained the extra-large cone heads I ordered. These fit Ozzy's 1/8" brass cap very well. So, the heck with all this writing. I have some Ozinators to build.
Toolbox
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I just received my 1/8" brass caps from Valley Hydraulic today. http://www.valleyhydraulic.comMy extra large fly fishing cones fit very well, but I did need to glue them together. I got 15 cones so I glued 10 of the cones into 10 caps using 3 drops of superglue on the inside of each cap opening. Pretty easy. To finish the last 5 cones in the pack, I then took some Blue Stik (just like Blue Tack) and put a small ball of it in a cap and hand pressed a cone into the cap. I now have 10 real Ozinators held together with superglue and 5 Ozinators held together with Blue Stik. I want to find out if the Blue Stik will have any kind of damping effect on the sound. Right now I have five HFTs in-between my front speakers. Two back on the rear wall, two flush with my speakers on the front edge of the metal frame of my TV and stereo rack, and one centered about a foot and a half in front of the front wall hanging on some decoration. I can also remove two HFTs just outside the outer edge of my front speakers for the duration of my sound check. I'll be able to compare the 5 HFTs vs. 5 Ozinators superglued vs. 5 heavier Ozinators with Blue Stik. Jkbtn I'm looking foreward to listening to your resonators also, but the supplier said they would arrive in two to four weeks. So, I'm gonna play with these for now. I'll let you know how things are sounding in a day or two. Toolbox |
Ozzy;
Thanks for the encouragement. This is great fun! Also, my sound is getting better.
You mentioned this tip a while back and I've kept the advice in the back of my mind ever since. Two nights ago, while experimenting with your speaker placement advise, I happened upon a variation which might work out to be a game changer for some of the other readers. It was a fantastic "Ah-ha" moment for me and is becoming a keystone component of the way I use these things. I'm working though my idea and should have the advise ready to go soon.
BTW The Ozinators really sound great!
Thanks,
Toolbox
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A quick update, I am totally sold on the Ozinators, and recommend you purchase the following components and sizes if you want to build some for yourself. For the caps I went to: valleyhydraulic.com Brass 1/8" Female Pipe Cap Our Products: Brass Fittings > Brass Pipe Fittings > Brass Caps and Plugs http://www.valleyhydraulic.com/store/pc/Brass-1-8-quot-Female-Pipe-Cap-p1266.htmThey cost about $ .58 each with discounts for larger quantities. Plus shipping. For the cones I Google: Hareline Alaska Brass Cone - and buy them wherever they are in stock. They come in packs of 15 for $4.50 plus shipping. These are 3/8" cones. Don't bother with any smaller cones. I'll be testing out some slightly larger cones in a few weeks but these work extremely well. There are two ways to attach the cones into the caps. My preference goes to supergluing them together. Three little drops around the outer edge of the cap opening - then push the cone down & you're done. The other way is to insert a small ball of Blue Stik/Blue Tak into the cap and push the cone down into the cap. The superglue models produce a lighter, more airy sound, the Blue Stik models have less pronounced highs which some might find beneficial. I'll have more about this in a few days. Enjoy! Toolbox |
Oh, I forgot. For the superglue I used a small bottle of Gorilla Gel Superglue. Very easy to use.
Toolbox
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Thanks.
The Hareline Alaska Brass cones I mentioned are 9.5mm cones, which fit very well into the 1/8" caps. Not so well that they stick all by themselves. You will still have to glue them, but the cone edge is just a little bigger than the cap opening and the two pieces make an excellant match.
I have some larger cones on the way, but the Alaska Brass cones I mentioned sound really good and they are easy to find. If you order them they will probably end up delivered within 3-4 days. The caps took 4-5 days to arrive.
The edge of the cones do protrude from the caps by about 1/8" but as you say, no problem. They sound fantastic.
I'm currently experimenting with the 9.5mm cones mounted in slightly smaller bases and I've also built some mini-Ozinators using 1/4" or 8mm cones in brass compression sleeves.
Toolbox |
Arggggggh!
I received the remaining parts and assembled a large number of Ozinators held together with superglue and with Blue Stik/Blue Tak. So I am all ready to start the big experiment, started turning on the components, and somehow blew the fuse for my preamp. I don't have a spare handy so I had to order another fuse and use a different fuse in the meantime. The big problem is my set can't possibly sound the way I had it set up, so I won't be able to make any evaluations and adjustments until the replacement arrives and I get it burned in.
One thing I can mention is that ALL of these transducers/resonators alter the sound produced by my stereo. I, for one, ended up with way more bass than before requiring that I take steps to reduce the volume of the lower frequencies.
Also, the upper frequencies were more pronounced requiring adjustments in the resonator placements as well as adjustments to my equipment.
The end result of both of these outcomes is my midrange got buried. I had to boost the upper midrange levels in order to make vocals sound natural and open, instead of veiled or pushed into the background.
I point this out because many of you are of the source-preamp-amp-speaker way of thinking, and you won't be able to make any sizeable adjustments to your set-up if these things throw your sound off.
As for me, I can make all kinds of adjustments to my sound but if you can't - tread lightly. It may be that just a very small amount of these can/will be tolerable to you.
Maybe those of you in the source-preamp-amp-speaker camp can chip in with their experiences.
In the meantime, my fuses should be here soon.
Thanks,
Toolbox.
Sent from my iPad
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Todd;
I left a message here yesterday but somehow it never was posted, so here goes again. I also just got my jkbtn brass bowls and 3/8" copper caps. I assembled two varieties. One set, like yours, was pushed together by force. For the second set I used heavier brass caps as my cone base and superglued them together so the cone sticks out further from the base.
After working around a blown fuse situation I'm finally to the point of testing and comparing my various models. I've also tried various room placements.
I'm going to be very interested in your results since your speakers are different than my Maggie's. I'm formulating a placement theory but I wonder if my theory might work with Maggie's but not with regular speakers.
Maybe you could try a test for me.
Without any resonators attached, listen to a couple of songs from your favorite evaluation music. I would like you to listen for the soundstage location and where the vocalist is located? Also please focus on the upper midrange frequencies and the treble frequencies.
Then add two resonators to the front wall just outside of your cabinet about 3' off the floor & listen again. Then add a resonator to the front of your speakers and re-evaluate. Finally, add two more resonators, higher up on the front wall and re-evaluate.
Do you hear any differences? I'm wondering if your soundstage shifts like mine does. I also would like to hear what this does, if anything, to your upper midrange and treble.
After that, if you haven't tired of this already, take all the resonators off and try a resonator on the inner side of both your speakers. Then take those off and attach a resonator to the outer side of your speakers. Does the soundstage shift? Do the instraments shift?
I don't want to skew your results by telling you my results right now. Not to mention, if your results are different than mine, then maybe my results are only good for planer speakers.
Thanks,
Toolbox
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Thanks Todd,
I meant to have you mount them just outside you component cabinet but still between your speakers and inside your wall traps as well. Looking foreward to your results.
If anyone else what's to join in on the evaluation fun, please do. Then post a little report.
I've already finished most of my evaluating on my main setup, and I'm going to try some of this on a second stereo I have. Unfortunately, my second stereo is placed to be "out-of-the-way" more than it's placed to sound good.
Toolbox |
No Todd, you didn't kill this thread.
I, for one, have been extremely busy with some outside work that needed to be done - right now! Now that my projects are done & the sunny period is behind, I'll be moving back indoors and re-focusing on our little project here.
Thanks for all the great work you did testing the multiple mounting positions and locations for me. Your results mirror my results with a few differences, probably due to our speakers being so different.
I will be able to do the final testing today, between the Ozinators, the HFTs, and the jkbtnonators (dude, you have to get a better handle than jkbtn :) on my second system.
The results of the hardware shoot off, and also my position test results will both be posted by this weekend.
Thanks,
Toolbox
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Placement findings for music transducers and resonators.
First off, thanks to Todd for also testing a lot of different resonator positions. I was glad to see Todd’s results were comparable to my results. I feel the commonality of our results is a good thing because we have much different speaker types. Todd has box style speakers in his system while I use Magnepans in my main system. I also tested a lesser developed system I have in the main living area. If Todd & I have similar results, I think many of your experiences could be the same as ours. I guess I should issue the disclaimer that while we have heard some common traits in these three systems YMMV. Also, thanks to Ozzy for all his starting tips and suggestions.
Just one quick heads up here. I’m 67 but I like to listen to music at, what I consider to be, a full bodied volume level. Not loud, but loud enough that the Magnepans sing. At my listening level the upper mid-range is still sweet, but it is close to becoming a little harsh. If you play music at a volume level less than full bodied, your results may vary.
Whether you use transducers or any of the resonators we have been talking about, my placement results were similar enough for me to generalize about placements.
I did start off with the published placement guides for HFTs, and then started modifying them with Ozzy’s suggested placement tips. I started off placing one on my front wall two feet up from the floor and a half foot inside the speakers. After listening a bit I added two more about 6 foot high, inside the speakers. I tried many of the other recommended positions as well. I also tried side walls, the back wall, the ceiling, down low in the corners – next to my bass traps, and finally placed directly on my speakers and components. I also tried only using HFTs and then only using resonators as well as a mix of both.
The first thing I noticed is any of these little helpers move the music (the soundstage) and also they tend to highlight certain frequency ranges. The two frequency ranges that were affected in both my systems were the mid-bass range (when I place some low and in the corners) and the upper mid-range area, especially impacting vocals.
For me any transducers or resonators placed near the lower corners of my room caused the bass to become boomy and muddy - not a good trait with Magnepans. I utilize corner bass traps and a pair of subwoofers in my system but make sure my bass remains very tight. If you can stand a little loss of detail in the bass department you might try placing one or two down low, in your corners. I started off with two in each of the four corners (which was very exciting for the first half hour) and gradually backed off until I just had one each, in the front two corners. Even that was too much for my tastes.
Now for the upper mid-range. All of these transducers and resonators embellished my upper mid-range, increasing mid-range definition but overdoing it to the point of slightly diminishing my listening pleasure. The more transducers or resonators I installed, the more I noticed vocals becoming more shrill whenever a vocalist would be singing powerfully, violins became more edgy than sweet, and listening fatigue started to set in. This wasn’t a knock-you-over-the-head change, but enough of a change to be a definite negative. My first step to lessen this was to move my transducers and resonators down lower on the walls & off the ceilings. Taking Ozzy’s advice I moved everything down until no transducers or resonators were higher than my standing chest height. This went a long way toward taming the beast, but in the long run, it still was not enough for me. More about this later…
As far as soundstage goes these transducers and resonators all have a positive effect on the depth of the soundstage. They also have a pronounced effect on the position of the soundstage. In a few days I hope to have a post describing the differences I hear between all the different resonators I have tested and also between different resonator sizes. There are some very noticeable differences in the depth and warmth of the soundstages and frequency responses.
What I want to address here is the position of the sound stage. What both Todd and I have found is the soundstage tends to move toward the direction the transducers/resonators are pointed in.
In my systems, when the resonators are pointed in toward the listener the soundstage moves closer – or the listener’s seat seems closer to the stage - not unlike turning up the volume will move you closer to the stage. If you place a resonator or two on the inner side of both your speakers the soundstage will move in, further constricting what engineers place in the center and bringing centralize sounds such as vocals into a more focused position between the speakers. Likewise, resonators placed on the outside of your speakers will widen the stage and some of the instruments that are panned wide, left or right will sound even further left or right. Pointing my transducers and resonators backward from the back of my speakers did not have as much of an effect but it did have some effect. However, placing a resonator on the back of a couple of objects about a foot or two from my back wall - so that the resonator is facing the back wall - pushed my back wall away from my listening position and helped surround me with more ambiance than I had before.
The more transducers and resonators you place in any one direction the more pronounced the stage movement becomes. (I had a large number or resonators on my front wall and then tried a bunch more, pointing in from my back wall and ended up moving and concentrating my listening area sweet spot so tight, in the middle of the room, that I was no longer sitting in the sweet spot. - Abort Abort!)
I also came to the realization that one can quickly experience “Too much of a good thing”, with these. After experimenting with just a few or having many, many of these I have scaled back my own usage to the point that I only use 8 -10 of these in my system (still haven’t made a final decision). In the end I now have: 2 facing backwards from my speakers - directly toward the front wall but angled slightly upward so they bounce sound off the front walls & up & over the speakers, 2 facing in towards the middle of the soundstage positioned just behind my front speakers, 2 facing in outwards from just behind my front speakers, and 2 on either side of me - facing the rear wall of my listening room from about 15 inches away. I’m experimenting with 2 additional resonators, also facing the front wall, but from outside of my front speakers.
With NO resonators facing in toward me or the room, and using a smaller number of resonators; IMHO my mid-range is more tame and listenable, my soundstage is moved back a bit – where I like it, and my ambiance is a little more enjoyable.
So while some people may have all their transducers or resonators pointed at them and like it (can’t argue with that), and some may have a huge number of resonators in their listening room and like it (can’t argue with that either), I thought I would add an alternative.
Happy listening,
Toolbox
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Well, I went from a gazillion resonators down to just ten. With the smaller amount, I do hear a nice addition to, and a repositioning of my soundstage. Not the groundbreaking, earthshaking change some have stated, but a nice little tweak, nonetheless. I'm happy!
My most pleasurable gain came by adding a resonator to each side of my front speakers. The outside resonators provided me with a slightly wider stage but also more ambiance. The inward facing resonators brought the singers and main instraments closer in toward center stage while providing much more definition for the individual parts. This was done with just four resonators. I got a little greedy and doubled the resonators (now with four facing inward and four facing out) with the new resonators placed about 15-18" below the first resonators. The result was more muddy and harsh.
So now, I'm a confirmed minimalist when it comes to using these things.
Hopefully, you don't throw your resonators away. Maybe after some time with no resonators, you might try adding one to the inside of both your speakers or maybe try the outside edge. For me, I found that having my inward facing resonators at ear level (when seated) and my outward facing ones about 1 - 1.5 feet higher gave me the best reward. That's as high off the floor as I would ever want to go.
But in the end, it's all about what makes the best music to you and your ears only. So, if you end up liking music better without them - leave em' in a box.
BTW I have a couple of different versions of your resonators and they work very well for me. I just built a few more smaller resonator types so I could test if different cone sizes affect different frequencies. I also used heavier and lighter bases for the resonators to find out if the base material affects the sound. Hopefully, I'll have the time to do the testing a couple of times, and write up a report soon. I'm gonna try get it out this weekend or maybe early next week.
Thanks for all your help.
Toolbox
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Thanks Todd. Were the brass bowl beads you used the fly fishing lure cones, or something else?
Toolbox |
Todd, jkbtn, Ozzy & mid40sguy,
Thanks for your interest and input about transducer and resonator selection and placement. I will be running my final head to head tests this weekend and I want to make sure my tests and opinions are meaningful for the people who are adding to this conversation.
If the four of you could just shoot me a quick post discribing the resonators you ended up using, that would be great. I could use the type & size of the cones you use, the type & size of the bases you use, and how you attached them to each other. If you built more than one type, feel free to let me know about any others you are interested in.
Thanks
Toolbox |
OK. Got it! I'm glad I asked.
If I'm not mistaken yours are fairly similar to the ones jkbtn built.
Toolbox
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The same people that sell the brass beads you mentioned sell them in 10mm, 12mm and 14mm sizes, and even smaller.
I have found that I like the Cups that you have been using, but in more substantial bases. I'm starting to write it all up & should be done in a day or two.
Toolbox |
Todd, jkbtn,
Hang in there guys. Unfortunately, work around the house not to mention work itself, is casing delays in my ability to get out my final report. The scope of this final report is also adding to the delay as I discuss constuction, material sourcing as well as the head-to-head testing results.
the reason I ask you to hang on is, while jkbtn had a good idea as far as construction goes; when his resonators were compared to other self-made types of resonators they finished way at the back end of the pack. They didn’t even make the cut down to the "six finslistist" list of resonators I re-tested this past weekend. So, I can understand jkbtn could become discouraged. But jkbtn’s cones were a huge help, as you will see.
Todd -in my testing, going smaller did not make results better. To my ears the smaller the self-made resonator the more minuscule the effects.
You can see the six finalists if you look at my System Pictures, here on Audiogon.
So don’t get too down on these, don’t give up, and don’t give/throw away any of your parts. Trust me - I will get this report out.
Toolbox
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Todd,
I have stopped pressing my cones into bases and now only use glue. I would be very interested (if you have a couple of jkbtn's 14mm cones) if you would take some Elmers and build two or four temporary models with the cones sticking out, and test them against your press fit models. I'd love to find out if what you hear is the same as I heard.
Oh, and yes, I agree. I'm finding out that big cones are the best and a big bottom can help too.
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Todd,
Those are some good lookin' resonators. You could sell those ;^) I'm becoming a specialist in resonators noone would want to look at.
Speaking of good looking - I love the look of your preamp. Sweet.
Looking at the preamp I see you have a pair of tube dampers on each tube. Underneith the preamp I see some feet that look an aweful lot like Brent Jesse big, brass tube dampers. Am I correct? If so, did you not like them?
I should have my final resonator report out on Wednesday.
Toolbox
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Well, now to my last piece of the puzzle - how do the individual transducers or resonators sound?
For my evaluations I used my serious stereo setup for the preliminary testing and then used my secondary set (Sony CD, McIntosh C-28 pre, Adcom 545, and Sony Speakers) for the final two testing sessions. Just to remind you, I play music at a fairly robust volume level - a little below symphony concert level - as if you're sitting in the 20th row, dead center, in a venue that normally seats about three thousand people. The later tests were performed at a slightly lower volume than my usual. Your results probably will vary - especially if you listen at louder or softer volumes.
The initial testing was between the HFTs, four different versions/interpretations of the Ozinators, four versions/interpretations of jkbtn's resonators, and a very complicated resonator I built. I have to say the ultimate differences between the tested prototypes were noticeable but not earth shaking. The final results were comparable to the experience provided by swapping fuses or tube rolling. That said, after all my listening and positioning testing I only found one that was ultimately, acceptable to me.
When I first got started in this effort I made a large amount of a large amount of resonators (almost 100) and succumbed to the idea that more was better. As I have previously posted, eventually I came to the conclusion that less is more. I now only use eight in my serious listening room.
I became interested in do-it-yourself resonators after reading Ozzy's posts about his design and I thought I would also give them a try when I got a good deal on 15 HFTs. Obviously, a great time to do a comparison. While I was waiting for all the Ozinator parts to arrive I also assembled a collection of larger and smaller cones as well as larger and smaller bases. A short time later, jkbtn suggested a different style, larger cone and by the time I was finished I had more than a dozen resonator types to go along with the transducers.
The initial testing was between the HFTs, five versions/interpretations of the Ozinators, four versions/interpretations of jkbtn's resonators, and a very complicated resonator I concocted. I never did get a press fit Ozinator built. Either my cones were too large to be pressed into the bases I had, or they easily slipped into my other sized bases but were loose enough to slip back out. Initially, I bought fly fishing lure cones in three sizes but only used the large cones and ultimately switched to the 3/8” or 9.5mm "Alaska" Brass Cones, since (to my ears) the smaller cone sizes never provided as much musical value.
Enter Gorilla Glue.
Gorilla Glue proved to be excellent for attaching the cones to the bases. A couple of drops on the edge of the open bases, then plop it down on top of an upside-down cone (like a hat on a bald head) and five minutes later you had resonator all welded together. The Gorilla Glue provided a nice lightweight but sturdy bond. Pushing some Blu Tack into the cap and then pushing a cone into the cap also worked, but I thought it dulled the music a little.
While I was working with the Ozinators I received the jkbtn cones. The jkbtn brass cones are more like tiny, little bowls than cones. I ordered three different jkbtn cone sizes, but ultimately only used the 14mm and the 12mm sizes. The bases I used for the jkbtn cones ran the gamit from 1/4" and 3/8" copper caps, to 1/4" compression fittings, to big, honkin' 1/8” & 1/4" brass female pipe caps.
I tried many different styles, sizes and placements of resonators, but quickly settled on four representatives for my first round of testing. The four were: the Synergistic Research HFTs, the Ozinator in a 1/8" brass base, the jkbtn 14mm cone pressed in a 3/8" copper cap, and a big jkbtn 14mm cone glued in the big 1/4" brass cap.
Using only my front channel speakers (Magnepans) with and without the subwoofers I tried six of each prototype. For this test I placed three prototypes on the wall, around each speaker. One just off the inside edge - about 30" up from the floor, one just off the outside edge - about 30" above the floor, and one just above the speaker.
I started listening for many details but during these tests but soon zero'd in on four very noticeable tendencies with large differences. First, how deep was the soundstage; second, the positioning of the vocalists and instruments; third, how much clarity of detail came through; and lastly, how much harshness did each resonator type produce.
My lowest ranking of the four went to the 14mm jkbtn cones in the 3/8" copper caps. On the downside, they did not contribute very much to soundstage depth nor did they add to mid-range and bass clarity. On the positive side they did not contribute much to the upper mid-range harshness and even added a little bit of hi-frequency zing. Overall, they just did not provide much of an impact.
The next two finishers were tied for second. Not because they were equal, they were very different, but because I couldn't figure out which one was necessarily better. The SR HFTs were the best of all in producing a warm and very deep soundstage. The actual stage itself just seemed alive and so much more physically deep than most of the others. The HFTs could easily have walked away as my champions except for one, major flaw. They produced more upper mid-range harshness/raspiness than any of the resonators. Now, every one of these produce some harshness, especially if you place large numbers of them into your system, but to my ears the HFTs were the most harsh of all. I tried multiple placements to no avail. I brought out my test disk and my SP meter just to make sure I wasn’t placing them in hot spots. I tried turning them away from the listening area but the harshness remained. In the end this turned out to be a deal-breaker for me
This is where I have to insert the YMMV language. At robust listening levels my upper mid-range is somewhat close to being raspy as it is. It doesn't take too much to push the music into the harsh range. If you listen at a moderate volume level or if your speakers have a softer mid-range than Magnepans, the HFTs could possibly be your winner.
(In referring to upper mid-range harshness, what I am hearing is most noticeably heard when vocalists reach the part of a song where they put a lot of oomph and volume into the part. To use two very popular songs to demonstrate: during the Police single, ”Every Breath You Take”, when Sting sings "Now my POOR HEART ACHES, with EVERY STEP you take" - and also on k. d. lang’s single, "Constant Craving", when she sings the chorus, "CON-STANT CRA-VING has AL-WAYS been". At these intense moments the harmonics produced above the notes sung, can bring a hard, harsh, or raspy sound to the vocalist's voice).
Tied for second place with the HFTs were the biggest Ozinator I built, the Alaska cone in a 1/4" brass cap. The biggest Ozinators produced the most pleasant sound of all the Ozinators I built with a good tight bass, a clear mid-range, and pleasant but subdued highs. These were the best Ozinators at not producing mid-range raspiness/harshness but unfortunately, the soundstage they produced almost sounded two dimensional. If the HFTs produced a soundstage that was forty feet deep then the Ozinators stage was only fifteen feet deep. (FYI - Smaller Ozinators produced better highs - very nice cymbals - but the harshness became more evident. Plus they had the same soundstage lack of depth).
This left the large, big bottom jkbtn resonators as the champ of the first testing. These excelled at almost everything except their high frequencies were not quite as prominent as with the smaller sized resonators. The sound stage was the equal of the HFTs while the lower level and mid-range became clearer and more focused than with any of the other resonators. The big bottom jkbtn resonators also moved the stereo image quite effectively. While the official tests all were done with forward facing resonators, I did try placing these on the inside edge of my speakers which caused the vocals and instruments to move closer to center and become better defined physical position-wise. Likewise, when I placed them on the outside edge of my speakers the listening area expanded outward adding to the ambiance that is built-in to modern recordings.
Flat out, the big bottom jkbtn resonators were the most holographic, clearest, impactful, and pleasant sounding of all the contestants - by a fairly noticeable margin. Truth be told, I oh, so, didn't want these to be the winners. With the biggest cones stuck in the biggest, honkin' bases they are not only large and heavy but also kinda ugly. Nevertheless, IMHO they outperformed all of the others.
Just to make sure I took the top contestants, plus a few others, upstairs to a different stereo and performed a second round of testing.
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So there you have it. My take on evaluating the resonators. Ultimately, I sold my HFTs and reduced my usage of resonators in my main system way down. I tried using eight Big Bottom jkbtn resonators with two other smaller resonators thinking that I might be able to bring a little extra hi-frequency zing to the Big Bottom jkbtn sound. For me there seems to be a thin grey line when it came to the harshness factor and I just could not find another resonator that that didn’t push me over the harshness edge. In the end I cut my usage down to only eight Big Bottom jkbtn resonators. Two are mounted on the back of my front channel speakers – facing the front wall, two are mounted on the inside edges of the front speakers, two on the outside edges of my front speakers, and lastly two mounted on the sides of my rear speakers, which means they are facing the rear wall of my listening room. (I’ll post some pics soon) This setup produces a somewhat deeper soundstage and helps keep the stage away from me. Vocalists and instruments are generally positioned more toward center stage. There is a little better bass clarity, smoother vocals, a little more kick to percussion, drums and transients, better all-round clarity, and a little more ambiance. I hope your final choice affords you as much. The experimentation has been worth the trouble. I’m glad I have my favorites in place. The following parts were used in the construction of the different resonators: For the smaller Ozinators Here are Ozzy’s own words. - “I used 1/8" copper caps with a large copper cones from a company called Hareline. Hareline makes items for fishing lures and can be bought from Amazon. The caps however, will need to be purchased from a plumbing house. Then just simply glue the cone inside the cap. The cone is a direct drop in. I used Elmer’s school glue to seal the cone inside the cap.” For my larger Ozzinators - I substituted the larger Hareline Alaska Brass Cones – I buy them at online fishing lure stores, wherever they are in stock. They come in packs of 15 for $4.50 plus shipping. These are 3/8" or 9.5mm cones. I glued these into 1/4” copper caps and later into 1/8” brass caps from Valley Hydraulic For the rest of the resonators I used these bell-shaped brass cones. All you need to do is to place the bell into a 3/8" copper cap by hammering it gently. Tight and secure! And it makes a very nice resonator cup. Or you can glue it in and have half the cone sticking out from the base. Here is the ad for the jkbtn brass caps – I mostly use the 14mm models. You get 30 for about $8.00 including shipping http://www.ebay.com/itm/302130537660?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=600948813663&ssPageNam. My 1/4" Big Bottom brass caps come from Valley Hydraulic. http://www.valleyhydraulic.comhttp://www.valleyhydraulic.com/store/pc/Brass-1-4-quot-Female-Pipe-Cap...SKU: 3129X4 A slightly smaller 1/8" Big Bottom brass cap also comes from Valley Hydraulic. http://www.valleyhydraulic.com/store/pc/Brass-1-8-quot-Female-Pipe-Cap-21p1266.htmSKU: 3129X2 Toolbox |
The second round of testing.
For the second round of testing I first started with six transducers or resonators for each test. Three on each side, all mounted face forward on the wall, one about a half-foot off the outside edge of my speakers, one just above my speakers (about 42" off the floor), and one about six feet above the floor. I constructed a few smaller jkbtn resonators, just to make sure I wasn't missing something. After a couple of listening sessions I narrowed my list to a final six resonator types - which are pictured in my “system pictures” section here on Audiogon. For the final I reduced the number of resonators for each test down to four with only a resonator just above my speakers and a resonator just to the outside edge of my speakers. I was only listening for resonator characteristics not placement optimization.
For the final notes portion I used only one song. I had just received a copy of Steely Dan's "The Royal Scam", and decided the first track, "Kid Charlemagne", features a number of good evaluation parts in it. In the first verses the bass and one of the keyboards are having a nice playful dual. This was an excellent part to evaluate bass response and clarity. Some resonators were rather muddy sounding; some were able to keep the two instruments separate.
The first verse also offered an opportunity to get a good reading on the amount of stage depth each resonator type produced.
During the second verse the cymbals and percussion come into play giving a good opportunity to gauge percussion, drums, and overall kick-in-the-gut impactfullness provided. As the second verse ends and the song transits into the chorus you get a good chance to gauge how each resonator handles vocals. Steely Dan vocals are fairly nasal sounding and keeping the vocals sounding musical was a challenge for some of the resonators. The chorus magnifies these difficulties as the main vocals become more forceful and background singers enter the song with gusto. This is where harshness can really rear its ugly head.
The guitar solo and remaining verses are great spot to reaffirm your thoughts on the overall performance.
I played this song over & over, going back & forth between resonators, I also occasionally went back to the no resonator sound – just to refresh my memory as to where the starting line was.
So here are my impressions of the six finalists. Once again – your mileage may vary.
The Small Ozinators (rear left in photo)
Depth of soundstage................................ 1
Clarity of bass and piano......................... 4
Percussion and drums impact.................. 4
High frequencies (cymbals)..................... 4
Vocals/guitar solo quality and purity....... 4
Harshness/raspiness avoided.................... 2
Overall..................................................... 19
The Large Ozinators (front left in photo)
Depth of soundstage................................. 1
Clarity of bass and piano.......................... 4
Percussion and drums impact................... 5
High frequencies (cymbals)...................... 4
Vocals/guitar solo quality and purity........ 4
Harshness/raspiness avoided..................... 4
Overall........................................................22
The Small jkbtn cone - press fit or glued (rear center in photo)
Depth of soundstage.................................. 3
Clarity of bass and piano........................... 3
Percussion and drums impact.................... 3
High frequencies (cymbals)........................4
Vocals/guitar solo quality and purity….... 4
Harshness/raspiness avoided.......................3
Overall...................................................... 20
The large jkbtn cone in 3/8” copper bottom (Center front in photo)
Depth of soundstage............................... 4
Clarity of bass and piano......................... 4
Percussion and drums impact.................. 4
High frequencies (cymbals)..................... 3
Vocals/guitar solo quality and purity....... 4
Harshness/raspiness avoided.................... 3
Overall.......................................................22
The large jkbtn cone in 1/8” brass bottom (Right rear in photo)
Depth of soundstage................................. 4
Clarity of bass and piano.......................... 3
Percussion and drums impact................... 4
High frequencies (cymbals)...................... 4
Vocals/guitar solo quality and purity........ 3
Harshness/raspiness avoided..................... 3
Overall........................................................21
The large jkbtn cone in large ¼” brass bottom (Right front in photo)
Depth of soundstage................................. 5
Clarity of bass and piano.......................... 4
Percussion and drums impact................... 4
High frequencies (cymbals)...................... 3
Vocals/guitar solo quality and purity.........4
Harshness/raspiness avoided.................... 5
Overall.......................................................25
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Dream catchers? I thought that’s what this is all about. The ability for us to go to our listening area and catch a dream of some musical performance. I was dreamin’ pretty good last night.
I’d be very interested in reading your opinion about the heavy brass caps coupled with the 14mm jkbtn brass cones. You WILL need some kind of glue to assemble them. The cones are too big to presss fit.
Throughout this whole episode, I’ve been trying to figure out if the bigger bases help produce better sound, or if it’s the big 14mm cones, sticking way out of the bases that add the most to the sound. While I’m kinda leaning toward the idea that the bigger bases have the bigger impact - I could make an argument for either point of view.
The one, big drawback to my favorite resonators is that they ARE heavy. It takes a pretty good wad of Blu Tack to hold them in place. Every time I head to the listening room for some music, I start out by making sure all eight resonators are still in place. Luckily I have carpeted floors. It’s not uncommon to find one on the floor.
Hope you’re having fun.
Toolbox
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Hey Todd,
Were you able to use the link I provided to get to the Valley Hydraulic page to order the big 1/4" caps. I tried yesterday and it didn't seem to work. I'm wondering if it's just my iPad or if the link I copied just doesn't work for anybody. If you can't use it, let me know & I'll post some detailed directions. The Valley site isn't very intuitive.
Thanks,
Toolbox
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Theaudiotweak
I have to back you up on your past statement of 05-16-2017 8:53am
"If you have placed devices on flat surfaces or walls and you are pleased with the outcome you can take this whole thing to a higher level by removing adhesive damping materials and attaching your device right to the wall or other surface. You can do this with the aid of a threaded insert placed directly into the wall and your device also threaded screwed into the wall. You can now adjust the resonance point on the wall by ever so slightly adjusting the tension of your device to the wall or surface. 1/16 of a turn can be clearly discerned..or even much less depending on the surface."
I had a very similar expirience with the very first resonators I built. They were quite complicated to build and I didn’t go any further in developing them because they were too much work to put together. Basically, they had a very small nail holding a cone to a small wooden cap. The nail protruded through the bottom of the wooden cap, so I just pushed the nail into my drywall wherever I wanted to place a resonator. The nail held the cone and cap firmly against the wall, but I didn’t have control of the tightness like I would have had with your screw suggestion.
I did notice that when held tight against the wall with no adhesive, the effect was quite pronounced. In my case - too pronounced. Ultimately, I decided I didn’t want any resonators on any of my walls. I only want to get a small tweek out of these things, but someone looking a more dramatic addition to their sound should give them a try. If you already have some cones all you need is a few small screws. I tried sticking up cones with no bases as an experiment but I used Blu Tack to place them. Screwing cones directly onto a wall might be well worth the effort.
Unfortunately, I'm really happy with my setup of resonators and I've settled into listening to music rather than playing around with my system. I guess someone else will have to take up the torch on this one.
Good idea! Sorry it took me so long to reply. I was a little busy.
Thanks,
Toolbox
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Todd & others,
My link to the big brass caps doesn't work. Here is the path to the location:
Go to: Valleyhydraulic.com
click on "Shop by department"
in the drop down select "Brass fittings"
in the drop down select "Brass pipe fittings"
in the last drop down select "Brass caps & plugs",
This takes you to the parts selection page. The large caps you're looking for are the: Brass 1/4" Female Pipe Caps.
The 1/8" caps are a possibility too, but in my stereo I didn't like them as much. It may may be that some of you have already found these caps by hunting around the site. Yesterday I ordered a few for my other stereo and so I could have some spares. Today, when I went back to the site to write down the path to the caps, I noticed the caps have gone up in price. I guess Valley Hydraulics Co. is not a patron of the arts.
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Todd & Ozzy
Thanks for adding so much value to this thread. Just to put s capstone on my participation, I have to admit when I did my final placements I totally forgot about adding any Ozinators to the tops of my Magnepans. Even when I read about your success with them on top of your speakers it didn't initially register any response in me. Finally I asked myself why hadn't I tried them again on top of my speakers too. So, I did!
Talk about your missing piece of the puzzle.
Immediately I was treated to the return of the zing and zip that had been missing in my high frequencies. The overall sound became a little more spacious too.
Funny thing, with the placements on top of my Maggies, pointed directly at the ceiling, I was able to move away from my sole use of the very large, heavy resonators I built and I ended up using two pair of Todd's smaller designs for my four speakers. Todd's resonators were very good at bringing out the life in my high frequencies. I am now one happy clam!
So, I now have twelve Ozinators in my system and a big smile on my face!
Thanks guys.
Happy listening,
and if you're ever in Milwaukee,,,,,,,
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Sakso,
Sorry I didn’t see your post. I was very busy in Sept along with being away on vacation the last half of the month. Thanks Todd for stepping in and helping.
Toolbox
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