I just bought 15 HTFs and will also be making about a dozen of Ozzie's homemade models. While I will re-fresh myself with SR's placement tips, and I get that I will have to do some experimenting to tailor the HFT effect to MY listening room; are there any "Advanced HFT Placement Tips" some of you would like to share with us? Something that might be overlooked by many of us? Or maybe, just a good rule-of-thumb tip for someone just starting to use these? The tips could be tips for bring out more highs, solidifying the bass response, placement hi vs low, in front of vs behind speakers, on side walls, at reflection points, behind the listener, on the ceiling above the equipment or above the listener, on the equipment. Any ah-ha that you would like to share? I would also be very interested in hearing from people using Magnapans.
I’m glad you liked my postings. Loved your comments and your story -- great fun and spot on. When geofflait has only this to respond "Ya gotta love love it when one person without moral scruples pats another one on the back. Like peas and carrots." ... then you know we’re hitting the poor nail on the head and are having a great time in the process. Lol. But I am very sorry to hear that you have no moral scruples, abnerjack. Not good.
Concerning the OP, let’s look at the risk/reward ratio by examining the math for "tiny cheap knock off" resonators. Let’s say you want to start off with what SR calls 5-packs. Let’s say you want to do 4 levels. That means 20 HFTs -- at a cost of $1,200 to $2,000 -- or $2,000 for the folks selling their "tiny original maximum $100 resonator cups". It will cost you about $20 to put 20 of your own together. You just saved yourself from $1,180 to $1,980. OK -- let’s say it takes double the number to get the job done. Well, you’re 20 bucks poorer -- while saving thousands, once again.
The math tells us that the risk/reward ratio is a no-brainer -- unless you are not the DIY type, unless you trust that spending thousands on "original" resonators will get you results that are far better than "cheap knock offs" -- justifying the outlay of big bucks -- or unless money is no object.
For the average audiophile on a limited budget, may I suggest that trying the "tiny cheap knock off" option is a viable alternative that can reap stunning results if done well. I suggest getting creative to help improve the SQ in your system. What have you got to lose?
It is fun to watch someone like you put geoffkait in his place. Truth be told, he likes to be dominated by an alpha male like you.
I told a story once that you might like. Many years ago, when I was a wee lad, my family had a dog that would just not stop barking. When I asked my dad why that might be, he said that the dog barked "because he likes to hear his head roar". geoffkait is your dog. I think he has gone running back to his den, but watch out, he may jump out and bite you in the ankles at any time.
Checked the price on the HFTs from SR - $300 to $500 for a set of five. Wow! Would buy a new LG washing machine. Guaranteed to make your everyday life better.
sabai "
I wonder ... can you patent pebbles? Ted doesn't do pebbles, not yet anyway.
" I doubt that. If pebbles (or the resonator cups) were part of some system (like speakers), then he could possibly get the system patented.
I know you are only here for intellectual reasons and that commercial interests have never crossed your mind. But you are attracting a lot of interest here and I am sure there are many people who are impressed with your expertise. I have an idea. Why don't you post a hyperlink direct to your order page so we can order some of your pebbles and your tiny $100 resonator cups. Lol.
Typical of you here -- getting snidely personal when you don’t get your way -- in a hopeless attempt to save a bit of face.
Anyway, I am very careful when I use the words "just in". You should be more careful next time. Oh, by the way, my wife won't let me date anymore. Lol.
Sabai, you mean the laws of physics changed since 2007 and nobody told me? If you're trying to convince me that you're a little slow on the uptake you're doing an excellent job.
You stated, "A very perceptive question, why shouldn’t there be different sizes? Why are all of the original Tchang tiny bowls all the same diameter? Why wouldn’t he have a whole range of sizes? And why are all tiny bowls from other manufacturers all approximately the same diameter as Tchang’s? Did they all just blindly copy his? And why is bass performance affected so much by the tiny little bowls?"
If you are really interested in learning more about why Franck Tchang does what he does, why not email him and ask him, and report back here what his response is? After all, he does say "email me" right up front on his site. That way, there would be no more need for all the speculation and blah, blah, blah.
And then you stated, "This just in!" ... quoting an article from 6 Moons. Kindly check the date of the article. This fresh news hot off the press is from February 2007 -- "just in" a decade ago. Thanks for keeping us all up to date.
toolbox149,
I am in the process of doing experiments similar to yours. I will be very interested in knowing how things work out with you.
Last night I found some new cones to try out. They are bigger than the usual large/ 1/4" cones. These are almost 3/8". I ordered a package of these "big game hunters" and will be trying these out as well. My big unknown is if the two different sized caps I on order, will match up with the four different size cones I ordered. I will keep you all posted.
This just in! From 6 Moons’ Return Visit to Franck Tchang. Looks like we know the secret of tiny little bowls in the courtyard of Franck Tchang’s abode. And why distance is irrelevant, and why the tiny little bowls should be placed in every room. Anyone else catch that it's NOT all about "equalizing air pressure differentials?"
"The resonators also become focal points for intense overtone radiation. That is denser at their points of origin than in the surrounding air. As directional organs, our ears key into these radiation sources and our acoustic perception of the space we’re in is altered. Again, no music needs to be played to sense this spatial overlay. Speech will do, or the sound of our own foot fall. Being completely passive, the resonators can only be activated by received energy. As HF modulators, a full-range input obviously isn’t needed. Franck Tchang has used a spectrum analyzer to corroborate this action up to 3GHz. By affecting the ordinary acoustic damping through adding parallel values from the resonators, original HF content reappears. It becomes audible again and rebalanced against the LF energies. Treble decays improve and the subjective impression of audible space deepens. The resonators equalize air pressure differentials and can be installed in a fridge, mailbox or outside a room. Distance will not affect their efficaciousness. That’s quite a fatal blow to common sense but there it is according to the maestro. Franck has treated recording studios, performance venues, bars, living spaces and entire buildings. His demand as an expert tuning maestro is growing. That brings to mind Combak Corp.’s Kiuchi-San who enjoys a similar reputation in Japan."
Ozzy Yes I'm going to try that. I don't know if they will fit together though. Stay tuned. I like Ozinators because it's a nice tip-of-the-hat to the first guy I saw doing this, and also it keeps you away from anyone hastling you based on trademark infringement. And according to Geoffkait, they resonate.
Todd, Hold off on ordering very small cones until I get my caps. I ordered the cones from Flyfishers.com yesterday and they arrived today. The small cone sizes are VERY, VERY small. I want to see if they will fit a small cap before I tell you to procede.
Thanks for posting the link to the large resonator. Of course it should be mentioned that’s pretty close to the size of a relatively large medium Tibetan Temple bowl. Oooooo!
toddverrone I’m interested to hear how your experiments turn out. As soon as a saw what these things are, my first thought was that there should be different sizes for different frequencies and their harmonics.
A very perceptive question, why shouldn’t there be different sizes? Why are all of the original Tchang tiny bowls all the same diameter? Why wouldn’t he have a whole range of sizes? And why are all tiny bowls from other manufacturers all approximately the same diameter as Tchang’s? Did they all just blindly copy his? And why is bass performance affected so much by the tiny little bowls? Answers at 11
I'm interested to hear how your experiments turn out. As soon as a saw what these things are, my first thought was that there should be different sizes for different frequencies and their harmonics.
With geoffkait I am having some fun -- a bit of comic relief -- as well as helping him out by attracting prospective customers. I firmly believe in social service. Lol.
You ask about working on different sizes of HFTs. I am working on this now. I have supplies on order.
Regarding the OP, I have been using 2 sizes of copper cones with one size of copper caps. I have other sizes on order and hope to get equally good results. Frankly, I have been really surprised at how well things have gone so far. The break-through was using Franck Tchang's diagrams. This led me to develop a whole new kind of resonator (2 different sizes). I encourage everyone to let their imaginations run wild regarding how to make resonators and where to place them. Of course, if measuring devices help the process, then by all means use them too.
You stated, "See below for examples from Franck Tchang’s website diagram and instructions for using HIS acoustic resonators. The steps of the diagram are specific to his gold, silver, platinum and basic models." Specific, yes, but not exclusive to his models -- as you are implying. Franck Tchang does not say they are exclusive to his resonators, anywhere on his site. Franck's diagrams were obviously made for his products. After all, who makes diagrams for the products of others? Duh. But nowhere on his site does he say his diagrams will "only" be effective for "his" products and cannot be used for other resonators. You are obviously putting works into his mouth.
You stated, "there are simply too many variables for guessing to be a good choice ...". Guessing, a.k.a. trial and error -- especially when done very systematically -- is one of the most important ways that audiophiles use to improve SQ. Using equipment is another way. Some use both. You may not like the trial and error method. Up to you. You have the right to your method. No one questions that. But others have the right to theirs, as well -- and theirs may be very successful for them.
Your "logical and reasonable" approach is only one of many possible approaches. There are many avenues. I can afford 70 of my resonators for $1 apiece. In fact, that's not "SO MANY". I will be adding more soon. $70 is $30 less than a single geoffkait resonator. I know. I know. Yours are the best in the universe. You can even quote your own site. Lol.
You stated, "So, obviously his diagrams are NOT intended to be universal." Who said they were universal? No one but you either said or implied this. And why is it obvious his diagrams are not "intended" to be used by others? This is one more example of your creative writing ability -- putting words into people's mouths.
How do you know what Franck Tchang "intended" here? Are you a mind reader, playing amateur psychologist once again on the forum? Watch out. If you keep this up you could be charged with practicing medicine without a license. Lol.
I tell you what. Franck Tchang says "email me" on his site. Why don't you email him and get it from the horse's mouth -- instead of from the other side of the horse. And then report back to us what he replies.
Franck's diagrams may be used to good effect in some systems. Why not let everyone decide for themselves instead of trying to tell everyone what to do? Let each person find out what works best for them and what approach or approaches to take. Leaving all options on the table is the very best approach, IMHO. I know. I know. Your way is the best way -- and the only way to get there. Along with your $100 resonators. Lol.
@sabai why don’t you just ignore geoffkait’s comments? The back and forth between the two of you is filling a lot of threads with bickering. I know he ’started it’ but why not just finish it?
I do appreciate your on topic posts, though. To make your non Ozzy resonators, did you stick with similar sizes and find materials you found superior, or are they similar in concept only, with different materials, sizes and geometries?
Todd, I had a big reply ready but Audiogon lost it Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
I will be building three different size Ozinators. The regular size plus two smaller sizes. I want to find out if smaller sizes affect different frequencies. I will report. If you don't have a place to buy cones I bought mine at: Flyfishers.com For anyone buying cones please keep in mind that for under $5.00 you will be getting a PACKAGE of cones. Most likely 24 cones in a pack. The write-ups are not clear. So don't do what almost did and order 12 cones not realizing I was ordering packages. I almost ended up with just under 300 cones. ;<)
Have either of you built/used HFTs of different sizes to focus on particular frequencies that are amplified by the room? Or do you just build a bunch and hope they cover the frequencies you need help with?
Sabai, sorry but you’re wrong. See below for examples from Franck Tchang’s website diagram and instructions for using HIS acoustic resonators. The steps of the diagram are specific to his gold, silver, platinum and basic models. Even if resonators are in the same shape and geometry as the original Acoustic Resonators (which your cheap knock-offs almost certainly aren’t) different materials, metals, ceramics, whatever, will have different reactions in different positions. Of course it’s your option to guess but IMHO there are simply too many variables for guessing to be a good choice. That’s why the only logical and reasonable approach is to use a SPL meter and test tone(s) of your choice. This probably explains why you had to use SO MANY resonators. Eventually you will find the ideal locations by accident. Wake up and smell the coffee! 😀
[Also, note that caveats are provided in his instructions, such as this location is good for small room with big speakers. So, obviously his diagrams are NOT intended to be universal.]
Step 4 should only use the Silver or Gold Special models. This position is very effective to open up the corners. The wooden base must be installed on the sidewall but butt right up against the front wall. It should sit slightly lower than the center resonator of Step 3 but no lower than 5cm from the ceiling.
Step 6 should use the Gold or Platinum versions. Install these units on the side walls as high as possible. Relative to your listening position, these resonators should align within a plus 100cm, minus 50cm window in front of and behind your chair. These two units cancel the sidewall reflections and reduce low-frequency resonance.
The Silver or Gold Special models are suitable for Step 8. This pair should be installed as high as possible on the sidewalls and butt right up against the rear wall. This location is very useful for smaller rooms with big speakers.
There are other products out there that have proved superior in my system to those that Ozzy recommends. They may be great for a lot of systems but you might want to check out various kinds of cones and cups to see what works best in your system.
Your repeated use of epithets does not reflect well on your contributions to the forum. "Grasshopper, knuckleheads, nerds, little old ladies." What do think you are gaining by being condescending and insulting? New customers for your $100 resonator cups? It behooves us all to show respect for one another here. Of course, I don't take this personally because I know it comes from someone who seems to be "challenged" in this regard, lamentably.
You originally stated, "Also keep in mind Tchang’s diagram is indicated on his web site as pertinent ONLY to his Silver and Gold tiny bowls". In fact, if you read Franck's site closely, this is not indicated anywhere on his. You have stated Franck's diagrams do not "apply" to other resonators. But Franck himself does not say this. Franck obviously created the diagrams for his own products. But this does not mean, ipso facto, that they cannot be used successfully with other resonators. The fact is that they can and are being used with other resonators with very good results -- in spite of your statement that they do not "apply" to others, which you falsely attribute to Franck..
Also, Franck Tchang produces 2 models with 5 kinds of bowls for each model, including platinum and copper. So, your statement regarding 2 and then 3 bowls was obviously inaccurate, as I pointed out.
You recently stated, "Exactly. And his bowls are gold and silver and platinum. His diagrams don’t apply to cheap DIY knock offs. Hel-loo! Your comments remind me that you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. Look within, grasshopper." I reflect this comment back to you -- "Cast out the mote that is in thine eye." Luke 6:42.
Your reference to "cheap knock offs" is cute. What difference does it make how cheap a "knock off" is, if it works? Perhaps it makes a difference to makers like yourself who are trying to sell $100 resonators. It hurts to hear that a $1 "knock off" offers stunning results. In fact, others are picking up on this and are also getting good results -- belying your negative statements. Are only manufacturers of expensive products entitled to make claims regarding resonators?
Your reference to horses and water deserves a hearty lol. It is obvious that $1 water is too cheap for someone who is trying to sell water at $100 a cup.
I just checked out the tiny metal bowls... They're for fly tying! That's great! I used to tie flies and go fly fishing a lot in middle and high school.. I never wrote have thought to look for tiny bowls there. How the heck did you find them, Ozzy?
If you check Franck’s site you will see that this statement is simply incorrect. His 8 diagrams clearly pertain to all of his "tiny" bowls.
Exactly. And his bowls are gold and silver and platinum. His diagrams don’t apply to cheap DIY knock offs. Hel-loo! Your comments remind me that you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. Look within, grasshopper.
You stated, "If you’re using panels the acoustic waves will obviously set up in the room quite a bit differently than conventional box speakers. Thus take any diagrams with a grain of salt."
Why "take any diagrams with a grain of salt" -- with the added inevitability of "thus"? Why not think for yourself and try them out? If you have panels, what have you got to lose? The 4 manufacturers who have published diagrams may not be wrong, or totally wrong, in the case of panels. And you may want to email them and get their opinions. They may in fact have experience with panels. So, my advice is to take the various diagrams any way you wish. They may work for you or not. Or parts may work for you. Unless you have actually gone to the trouble and done the work, and not simply speculated about how things will "thus" turn out, it could go either way. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
You stated, "Also keep in mind Tchang’s diagram is indicated on his web site as pertinent ONLY to his Silver and Gold tiny bowls, so I suggest using the diagram with that in mind."
If you check Franck's site you will see that this statement is simply incorrect. His 8 diagrams clearly pertain to all of his "tiny" bowls. And who is to say his diagrams will not apply to other resonators, as well? In fact, his diagrams work very well for my DIY resonators. YMMV, of course. So, I suggest keeping an open mind by using the diagrams without any preconceptions. After all, what have you got to lose? They will either work for you or not. It is also possible that parts may work for you. Until you do the work, making a statement about grains of salt is simply an "in my opinion" kind of thing. Each person needs to do the work in his/her system to find out if this is true or not. And, as I said earlier, there is a lot of trial and error here after you experiment with the diagrams.
You stated, "Of course the best way to locate the ideal positions for any resonator(s) is to employ a test tone and SPL meter." If you add "in my opinion" here, as well, I do not think anyone's feelings would be at all hurt. IMO. Lol.
One of Newton's Laws: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Sealed box speakers have no way to react to the speaker driver motion except to vibrate the cabinets. Planar speakers use the back wave to offload energy, thus resonators will probably not be very efficacious on planar frames. There is no energy in the vertical directions or the horizontal directions in the plane of the diaphragm.
Geoffkait; Yeah, I figure working with the Magnepans is going to be a challenge. Especially, since I have a quad set-up which means I have four Maggie 1.7s to deal with, plus two large subwoofer enclosures.
I like Ozzy's sugestión of attaching some of the HFTs and some resonators (Ozinators) around the sides and top of the speakers themselves. Attaching them to digital components also sounds intriguing.
"For all you DIY’s. I have received many emails to make these items. They are quite simple to make.
I used 1/8" copper caps with a large copper cone from a company called "Hareline" inside. Hareline makes items for fishing lures and can be bought from Amazon.
The caps however, will need to be purchased from a plumbing house. Then just simply glue the cone inside the cap. The cone is a direct drop in. I used Elmer’s school glue to seal the cone inside the cap.
Audio Magic also places a crystal in the middle of there "Bells". I suppose you could use (Blu Tack)to hold a crystal in the cap before gluing the cone in it. Personally I don’t think its necessary.
When you place the cones (I used blue tack) on the wall or the equipment, place them in the middle first with one at the height of your speaker, then near the floor and perhaps one up high. If you go too high with them it may accent the higher frequencies. But do experiment.
The others were placed at the first and second reflection points on the side walls.
At the wall behind you, I placed them again in the middle, at floor level, mid and high.
Then from there you can experiment through your room and equipment. Some places they worked good and some not so good.
I must add that I also own the SR FEQ unit which is supposed to excite these things. by ozzy"
Todd; You can find out about Ozzy's DIY resonators (or Ozinators, as I am calling them) if you read the thread titled. "Synergistic Research HFT + FEQ". I think Ozzy started to write about them on page two and had a lengthy conversation with Sabai about them.
If you’re using panels the acoustic waves will obviously set up in the room quite a bit differently than conventional box speakers. Thus take any diagrams with a grain of salt. Also keep in mind Tchang’s diagram is indicated on his web site as pertinent ONLY to his Silver and Gold tiny bowls, so I suggest using the diagram with that in mind. Of course the best way to locate the ideal positions for any resonator(s) is to employ a test tone and SPL meter.
This is really a trial and error thing. For instance, I get better results with my HFTs placed beside the tweeter and the woofer. Only you will be able to figure out what works best in your system. But starting with Franck Tchang's drawing is a good place to start. Then look at the Zilplex, SR and Audio-Magic charts for more ideas.
Ozzy just replied to a different thread and I'll repost it here because this is the kind of info I'm looking to acquire.
"Try placing them also on your speakers and equipment on all for sides. With speakers you can even place one on the top.
ozzy"
Any other slightly unique placements - good or bad (it can be beneficial to find out what can degrade performance as well as improve performance), would be very welcome.
A few starters: I noticed the bass got clearer when I did this..... If you want to make your soundstage deeper try this... When I positioned a couple of HFTs 'X' inches from the floor the result was a much softer sound than when they were 'Y' inches from the floor.
I make my own for about $1 each. I suggest looking up Franck Tchang's placement drawing on his site -- for his acoustic resonator bowls. I think SR followed Franck's lead here with their HFT placement suggestions. After dealing with the walls I suggest sticking them to various components and room treatment devices. Trial and error will get you where you want to go.
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