Phantom Supreme to 4Point-14?

@larryi , I think the 92 degrees in motion is why Fremer sets his to 93 static. Your approach to VTA, like lewm’s, is utterly reasonable. As an experiment, I’m going to set my tonearm to the average record, which in my scheme would be 160g, and see how long I can go without changing it. Might take me a few days to fully detox! If I can live with it, the door is open to the 4P-9 or even, gulp, Safir!

That hypothetical 92 degree ideal setting is not even that.  As the Wallytools people point out, one has to set the 92 degrees when the stylus is actually dragging when the record is in motion.  They utilize a special microscope and take measurements with the surface in motion. 

I prefer setting VTA by ear after first getting the body of the cartridge close to parallel to the record surface.  I too utilize a typical thickness record and don't bother to make changes for different thickness records.  

There is one extremely rare version of the linear tracking Air Tangent arm that provided for VTA adjustment on the fly using remote control--that would be the ideal way to set VTA for each record (there is a numerical readout, so one could record the number for each record once that is done by ear).  I am actually glad I don't have this kind of capability because I really don't want to bother with that kind of fiddling around.

Right, in the end it’s largely guess work, probabilities, and subjectivity. And our approaches are not so dissimilar. I know my VTA dial settings for 180 gram and 140g LPs; I split the difference for 160, subtract that split from 140 for 120g, add it to 180 for 200. It’s a momentary mental exercise. I can approximate the weight of the LP by its flexibility via a quick shake when I take it out of the sleeve. It takes all of three seconds to set VTA with most of my arms, and I do so before I play the LP. None of this is rigorous scientific practice, but its close enough. Then I sit and enjoy the music. Like you, I’ll tweak it if it sounds off, but I usually do not need to. If I want I can check my work on my 2 Grahams because they have bubble levels. Most of my carts like the arm level--or I’ve conditioned my ears to believe that. There’s actually very little fuss in my process, and it lets me relax into the sound. As I mentioned, though, if I forget to change, I usually notice.

But once one admits that 92 degrees is not necessarily optimal, then it becomes a matter of adjusting SRA to please yourself.  The fussiness of doing that would detract from my listening pleasure much more than does the possibility that each LP is not sounding its absolute best at my chosen fixed VTA.  I usually choose an LP of average thickness, adjust for that LP, and then forgeddaboudit.  If there was something "off" about SQ on a particular LP, I suppose I would play with VTA among other parameters in order to cure a perceived problem.

Of course I meant degrees, not percentage, but I appreciate the correction.

Whether 92 degrees is correct or not is actually beside my point, which is that some angle IS correct on any LP, in that it replicates the cutting angle. The physics that care nothing for our fetishes do care about that angle and whether the stylus is in position to extract the info as it was cut. And yes, FWIW, I believe you to be a good person, too. :)

FWIW. the Holy Grail for SRA is 92 degrees (an angle), not 92%. This was an estimate of the angle made by the cutter head and based on the notion that one wants SRA to exactly replicate the angle of the cutter head when playing an LP. Some gurus have disputed the notion that all studios used 92 degrees at all times. Others have suggested that the optimal SRA would also be slightly different for different stylus shapes. I DO require easy VTA adjustment, but I don’t get caught up in the 92 degree angle worship. I don’t adjust VTA for each LP. And yet, I think I am a good person nevertheless. There’s too many reasons why 92 degrees might not actually be optimal, and some LPs just don’t sound as good as other LPs no matter what you do.  "Physics" doesn't demand bupkis because it does not give a darn about our fetishes.

I don’t really understand being satisfied with incorrect VTA. We go to all the trouble of precisely aligning cartridges with uber-precise tools, getting cantilevers just right, and dialing in VTF to two decimal places. Some use devices to nail azimuth and eliminate crosstalk. Why? Because it makes an audible difference. Some even set SRA at precisely 92% with digital microscopes. Why? Because it makes an audible difference. If we concede that precisely 92% SRA is what the physics demand, and what our ears can and do hear, then how can we be satisfied when we change that 92% by plopping on an LP that changes the angle and the sound? I mean, when I go from a 120g to a 180g and forget to adjust VTA, I hear it and get up and change it. And I’m not saying I’m some sort of golden ears.

I know we all do this hobby in different ways, and I certainly I don't mean to disparage other approaches. But here I am in mine, for better or worse, and so far it has required easy VTA adjustment.

I spoke too soon. It looks like the 11 won't fit in the back position after all. My rough modelling shows that the headshell will not clear the tonearm installed in the front position. Bummer.

Never bothered me a bit.

Thanks, Steve. Yeah, I'm afraid I'm one of those guys who adjusts for different LPs. Just can't help myself. And if I didn't, I'd just sit there thinking I was maybe hearing incorrect VTA. Audio nervosa takes many forms.

As @mijostyn stated, sometimes I also prefer the 4Point9 vs the original 11" but it is a close call. Yes for the $$$ the 4Point9 is the better buy BUT if you are into adjusting VTA per different LP's then DON'T buy the 9" it's a PITA to adjust frequently and not easily repeatable IMO. Yes once set it's fine and it can be set precisily but takes a LOT more effort than the VTA adjustment of the 11". 

Mijo just wants someone, anyone, to live out his dream of owning a Schroeder LT. Yes, a 12 inch TP will be different from a 9 inch TP; its effective length will be 12 inches. The possible sonic differences with any particular cartridge are possible to predict in advance.

Thanks @mijostyn , that's good feedback. As you were you posting, I drew a scaled template of the 4P mounting base and broke out my UNI P2S tool. It turns out the 11 (or 9 or Safir) will fit on the back armboard--just barely. And because the plinth has a lot more area to the right than in front, the 11 would not hang the cartridge out over the edge if its mounted back there. Very interesting.... I have an Ortofon AS309S back there now for SPUs and like it well enough. But any of the Kuzmas would be a serious upgrade, I'm sure, and I can run SPUs on another turntable with my SME M2-12R. Plus, I'd keep the Graham on the Technics in the front position for daily drivers, etc.

So you like the 9 more than the 11? You don't miss the easy VTA adjustment?

I'll look into the Schroeder. I owned a standard Triplanar for years but sold it in favor of another Graham. Is the 12 significantly better?

Much to think about, all of it good!

I would not go with the 14. Go with the 11. I do thing it is a better arm for many cartridges than the Graham and certainly a lot better value. My personal favorite is the 9. I understand the 11 and 9 won't fit. I own the MSL Signature Platinum and the 14 will be too heavy for it without a lot of damping which puts added stress on the cartridge. Take a look at the Schroder LT. It has the right spindle to mounting hole distance for your table and it is a tangential tracker that does not require anti skating. Very cool design. A 12" Tri Planer would work and a 12" Reed 2G would work. There is not much wrong with the SME V12 either. 

For the 4P-11 and 4P-14, the P2S measurement is very different from the mounting distance because the pivot is located on an outrigger platform. Mounting distance is where you drill out the armboard and mount the arm base. This outriggered pivot is what enables an 11 inch arm to fit where a 9 would usually go, which is an ingenious boon to most turntables but not our our SPs because of that big square escutcheon. The 4P-9 and Safir, however, mount at the pivot like many arms.

Thanks, I hadn’t been aware of that oddity about the 11" Kuzma. I guess I should have been alerted to it because you did mention the mounting distance in an earlier post. But if the distance from the pivot to the spindle (aka "mounting distance") is only 212mm, how does it end up being 11" in effective length? I will have to look at some photos.

OK, I did find photos.  When you quote mounting distance, are you referring to the necessary room needed to clear the very large diameter VTA tower, which is larger than those used by Triplanar or Reed?  So in your parlance, the mounting distance is not equal to the pivot to spindle distance, in that case.

Lewm, I'm not sure which Reed you have but the 10.5's I've looked at have mounting distances of around 231mm or 251mm. Both would be fine for the R. The 11" 4Point mounts at 212mm, however, which scoots it up next to the motor housing, maybe too close, and forces the pivot it to be at 3:00 or so to the spindle, maybe lower. This would put the cartridge, at the end of that long arm, a little beyond the front of the plinth when in the armrest. The salient point here is that although the 4Point is 11 inches long, it mounts like a rather short 9-inch arm, which is a challenge for the SP motor housing.

FWIW, so far as I know, the SP10 mk3 and the SP10R have identical relationships between the platter location and that of the surrounding rectangular escutcheon, and I had no problem mounting a 10.5 inch Reed tonearm on my mk3. So I don’t know why you think the 11 inch Kuzma would not work.

@wrm57 now I understand, have not had the pleasure of using a SP10R so not aware of the best tonearms to use with it. But based on your description then the 4Point 14 does seem to meet your criteria. Since the Safir uses the same template as the 4POINT9 then even that isn't an option. As you correctly stated either the 4POINT9 or Safir, while you can adjust VTA it's no where as easy or repeatable as either of the other 2 kuzma arms. Myself this isn't as critical although many yrs ago I too would adjust VTA based on the vinyl thickness. 

Sorry still can't tell you the differences between the 2 arms from your original post.

@sksos , thanks for your insights. I don’t think the 11" would be a good fit on my SP10R plinth. Because of the Technic’s motor housing, my 9" Graham, at 217.4 mounting distance, just *barely* fits, and its almost too far forward for safety when the arm is at rest. The Kuzma’s 212 mounting distance is even tighter, and would require the arm to be shifted even farther toward the front, if it would fit at all. (I’d have to drop in a new armboard and measure it out, using a template of the base, to make sure.) But even if it does fit, the 11’s offset pivot and much longer Eff length would hang the cartridge off front of the plinth. Yikes! Hence the 14-incher, which is the Kuzma of choice for my turntable.

I’ve read good things about the 9", including Fremer’s opinion that it is the best-sounding Kuzma that is not the Safir. And, as I outlined above, its 212 mounting distance just might fit without risking the cartridge. And it’s a relatively great deal. But I’m one of those people who feels the ability to change VTA frequently and repeatably is crucial for proper sound. Having listened to Grahams for 20 years, I’m spoiled there. I know the 9 has precisely adjustable VTA, but it is nowhere near as easy and repeatable as the Graham, or even the 11 or 14 Kuzmas, from what I can discern. I don’t absolutely need it on the fly, but I do need it to be quickly and easily set to predetermined levels for varying LP weights (140g, 180g, etc).

If it would fit, and if it could satisfy my VTA needs, and if I can sell a kidney on eBay without missing it, I’d love the Safir. Not sure it’s possible to satisfy all three criteria. :)

No, still haven’t bought the MSL. I’m thinking about the best order of purchase, arm or cartridge. Obviously, they’ll need to compliment each other but I’ll need to space them out.

PS: Did you ever buy that Gold MSL? 😉

@wrm57 I've not directly compared these 2 tonearms BUT I'd suggest the original 4Point 11" over the 14" IMO. Yes have heard both and even the 4Point9 may be a "better" buy than either the 11" or 14" if you don't change cartridges often and don't need the VTA adjustment on the fly. Yes the VTA adjustment is easier on either the 11" or 14" but once set on the 9" it's fine. Another alternative, since the 4Point14" sells for between 14 - 18K depending on options, save your $$$ for the Safir, it is far superior sounding in our view. Yes again I've compared the 4Point9 vs 4Point11" vs Safir all on a Stabi R.

(Kuzma dealer disclaimer)

Floggin' it. Anybody?

Apologies for the typos!