Our home system: How good it is?
I suggest you read the link included by Shadorne which shows you the behaviour of low frequency sound. http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html#rfz Then you might like to complete a course in Acoustics, Building Science and Construction Techniques. I don't try to teach children. |
"The low frequencies pass straight through as though it wasn't there just as they also do for the glass wall." In your wildest dreams this may be true. "Mid to high frequency reflections are beneficial in many respects, to home listening experiences and the advantages of certain distances from these boundaries to the listening ear is a topic much too complex to tackle here." Re3flections are beneficial? How? Too complex to tackle here? Where do you think we should tackle this? Thats the whole idea behind an audiophile forum. Bob |
Shadorne, I'm happy to agree to differ as I respect most of the views you regularly post and in audio, what works for one often doesn't for another. It's when you unequivicably state a position which you claim is FACT to other readers, which I believe cannot be substantiated, that I feel obliged to challenge. A few closing points:- Ethan's primary problems with reflections are in the bass region. If you read his article, you will know that the low frequencies will easily pass through uninsulated lightweight construction. The wall I sit against is stud-framed uninsulated. The low frequencies pass straight through as though it wasn't there just as they also do for the glass wall. Mid to high frequency reflections are beneficial in many respects, to home listening experiences and the advantages of certain distances from these boundaries to the listening ear is a topic much too complex to tackle here. Recording studios have different priorities from those of the home audiophile. One of those priorities is the initial sound wave, as can easily be appreciated, hence the importance on eliminating reflected sound almost entirely. This includes a back wall. There are some things we should not learn from audio professionals. |
you may leap to the assumption that you have, but I propose that it is not born out by science, facts or acoustics. No leap here. It is a fact that walls reflect acoustic waves - as shown in the animation on the first PrimeAcoustic link I gave you. If you sit next to a wall then you will get very strong reflections of whatever you are listening to - the closer the louder and the earlier the secondary reflection arrives - a large flat surface symmetrically opposite the speakers (wall behind the listener) being one of the loudest and most coherent reflection in any room. You can use absorption to reduce the impact but it has been shown that 1) lower mid bass and bass frequencies are very hard to absorb 2) that even low level early reflections can disrupt our sense of where a sound orignated from (affects imaging/soundstage). The fact that he recommends that ALL room surfaces including ceilings, should be absorbent alerts any knowing audiophile, and also the fact that he recommends ceiling-mounted speakers is a dead giveaway..... Good point - however, I never said I agree with everything Ethan ever said - I was just pointing out his web page about the importance of a "Reflection Free Zone" at the listening position. But if you seriously believe that the acoustics in a recording studio are what we should be aiming for in our home listening rooms, then I beg to differ. Actually I don't. I was trying to make a point about where is the best listening position. If sitting at a wall was equally good then surely you would expect to find a fair number of studios set up this way. But conversely, are you implying that we cannot learn something from audio professionals with multi-million dollar facilities? Nor is it born out by my listening experiences. No problem. This wins any debate hands down. If sitting with your head next to the back wall works for you then go for it. Let me just add - I am not seeking to have an argument. I respect that you now have an entrenched opposing position here - so that is ok. I spent some time yesterday on what I thought was to provide some useful information to a fellow hobbyist that is all....you know, since you asked me. I'll stop here becuase there isn't really any point going further as your experience trumps anything I can provide. |
I've done some extensive reading over on the Rives Acoustic forum on AA. In many of the posts you will find two primary participants, Ethan Winer and David Aiken. Both are very knowledgeable fellows when it comes to room acoustics and treating rooms. One, Ethan, favors short wall placement of speakers and I believe the 38% rule, while the other, David, subscribes to the Audio Physics method which involves long wall placement of speakers and having your listening chair 1 - 3 ft. from the back wall (there are some other parts of the equation as well, including placement from the front wall and the fact that the speakers to do not have to be symmetrical with one another). Due to room size and constraints up to recently I had my chair 1 - 3 ft. from the rear wall with absorption panels on that wall. I also use a combination of Eighth Nerve products through out the room. Now I have short wall placement of the speakers and sit closer to the front wall. I still use the Eighth Nerve products and also have recently purchased some of Ethan's Mini Traps which are well built and very effective. I use acoustic panels on the ceiling reflection points above and in front of the speakers as well (as Ethan suggests). If I had my druthers I'd go back to the Audio Physic method which suits my tastes better, although my set up now sounds very good. The Audio Physic method allows the speakers to be further away from side walls reducing the effects of side wall (1st and 2nd) reflections. Being able to place the speakers 5 - 6 ft out into the room helps as well. That's just my preference and as you would read on AA there really doesn't seem to be a fool proof method, short of investing a small fortune in building a custom dedicated listening room. For those of us whose listening rooms double as living rooms or dens, or if dedicated, are less than ideal in terms of dimensions and symmetry, we're left with trial and error and tradeoffs. |
Thanks for the links Shadorne. The PrimeAcoustic link is a bit lightweight and is tainted by a company selling the products however..........I can find no references to 'not placing your seat against a rear wall'? The Ethan Winer article is another kettle of fish altogether. It is learned, full of science and accurate real-world information. It is a joy to read. Even though he appears to hold no formal acoustic qualifications and is head of RealTraps which sells the acoustic treatments he recommends, this man knows his 'onions'! Filtering the information he provides unfortunately, is the fact that it is written primarily from the recording studio playback point of view. The fact that he recommends that ALL room surfaces including ceilings, should be absorbent alerts any knowing audiophile, and also the fact that he recommends ceiling-mounted speakers is a dead giveaway.....not that Ethan is making any apologies for that. But if you seriously believe that the acoustics in a recording studio are what we should be aiming for in our home listening rooms, then I beg to differ. Despite all of this, again nowhere could I find in Ethan's article any caveat about listening against a wall (other than, if you do, make it absorbent). I can understand Shadorne, where, absorbing some of the facts presented, you may leap to the assumption that you have, but I propose that it is not born out by science, facts or acoustics. Nor is it born out by my listening experiences. |
BTW - please forgive my lousy typing, and one more thing on Point 2) => you will notice listening position in studios tends to be far from the rear wall behind listener - most often with the engineer sitting in the front half of the room. A good rule of thumb is the 38% room length rule - a listening position along the longest dimension of the room is often best at 38% of the length - studio engineers tend to sit forward in the 38% zone from the front of room whilst home listeners will probably get most enjoyment from sitting in the further 38% position from rear wall (this generally gives a more pleasing ambience and a broader more natural soundstage) After staking out the best reflection free listening position in a room then it is a matter of finding optimum speaker placement. |
Halcro, This link will help you understand. Just watch the animation and bear in mind that the reflections cause "comb filtering" making some frequencies disappear altogether. Notice the rear wall "purple wave" has a stonger arrival at the listener nearly as big as the primary green acoustic wave - in fact it is teh biggest and messiest secondary arrival as it has lots of coherence. The best sound is achieved when secondary reflections arriving at the listener are separated from the primary arrival by about a minimum of 7 Msec with 10 to 15 msec generally regarded as optimal. Reduction in their amplitude helps but fundamentally it is best to avoid any early reflections (you need to drop a reflected signal by more than 10 db before it begins to less destectable to the ear as a source of sound directionally). Fatiguing or claustrophobic is the impression you get from a lot of very early and large amplitude reflections as the brain is bombarded with sound from all directions. Rememember that as you move the listener towards the back wall it will reduce the primary engery and increase the reflected energy - at about 2 feet the rear wall reflections may actually become LOUDER than the primary sound and a mere 4 msecs behind it (confusing the soundstage). Likewise Ethan Winner explains room acoustics and the importance of creating a Reflection Free Zone at the listening position. Another helpful tip is to look at the recommended place to position bass traps. Invariably the best spot for maximum bass absorption is a foot or two out from the wall - this is where the modal acoustic energy from room modal standing waves is often the highest (with corners being the very strongest) - obviously this also happens to be a bad place to have your listening position. Another useful tip is to google studios and take a look at their designs from photos -for example. Search as much as you like but you will NEVER find a setup in a prestigious studio (where they can afford the best) with the listening position close to a side wall or a rear wall, as everyone knows how bad and cluttered this will sound. Generally distance to rear wall will EXCEED distance to side walls and rear walls will often be treated/damped because the strongest most coherent reflection in a room is 1) The bass reflection off the wall behind your speakers ( this is why studios build their main speakers into a wall or use very close small near-field monitors for critical listening - just as you see in the photo - you can find hundreds more and more or less they will be the very similar) 2) The bass reflection off the wall from behind the listener (long hall like rooms with treated rear walls behind listeners are preferred). I hope this helps. I understand it is not that obvious and that too much literature concentrates on side walls and neglects the wall behind the listener. This subject is probably the most important but least advertised aspect of teh audiophile hobby. However, remember that manufacturers want rather you spend more on their cables, amps, and speakers than acoustics. Besides, if you are sturggling with acoustics then you are more likely to be disatisfied with your system compared to others and therefore keep spending money on upgrades... I would suggest that Rives would be an excellent resource too you can find god articles they have written also. Of course these companies (like Ethan Winner's Realtraps) make a living from selling designs and acoustic products but they are not above giving common sense advice for free. Perhaps Rives will chime in - they will know an awful lot more about this than my rduimentary and superficial treatment of this subject. |
Elinor wrote:- "When the Vienna Philharmonic plays in Carnegie Hall and I attend a couple of concerts, it is tough to listen to my audio system the next day." Whenever I attend Symphony concerts in the Sydney Opera House, it is a pleasure to return to my home system. The SOH is so vast that even a compliment of 100 orchestra members is 'lost'! There is little power, little volume and little detail. I've also been to many more live 'pop' concerts with awful sound than the handful of memorable sonic experiences. The Absolute Sound?.........it can be over-rated. |
Shadorne says:- "I am also stunned by how many expensive systems have a listening position that is a couch with its back up against a wall. It just floors me." Apart from stating that "it's just obvious" or "I've heard the differences", can you please point me to the science of acoustics which verifies your statement? |
Dear friends: I attempt several times to post this information in the thread where really belongs ( http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153 ) but was impossible to do it and that's why I post here about: For almost six months my system was running with only one subwoofer ( left-right channel bass signals in mono way. ) due that the other one was down because a failure, two/three weeks ago this one was fixed thank to Velodyne and I want to share with all of you something about: due that I own two similar subwoofers we try to fix it at home, first we have to know where the failure comes so we check ( through the sub in good condition ) every single module and we found that the failure comes from the amplifier module that with out the diagram was a very hard time to fix ( and José has not enough time to do it ) it so I contact Velodyne and they agree that the amplifier module was the problem and that I send it to repair ( amplifier module alone ). I did it and ten days later ( Sirspeedy! ) I receive a " big " box with the amplifier module ( at least that was what I think at that moment ) and when I open the box I was surprised that they not only send me the amplifier module but the whole subwoofer modules ( including the metal rear plate ): they send me a whole new electronic subwoofer modules!!!!, my hat off to Velodyne! Over those six months my ears/brain were totally accustom/equalized to that single subwoofer quality system performance. I connect the second one and put some of my prefered Lp's and the quality performance of the system " suffer " a big improvement against the " one subwoofer " fashion, this improvement is on the quality performance level not on quantity. Through this experience I confirm again that one subwoofer audio system is the wrong way to go. IMHO nothing compares to two subwoofers in true stereo fashion! Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Elinor/Lewm: +++++ " We considered the sales help to be friends and we shared stories about music, recordings, and concerts we had attended. The audio sales people never asked us how soon we were going to make a purchase or how much we were willing to spend... " +++++ +++++ " I have a couple of 30-year friendships with guys whom I first met because they were salesmen or fellow customers in various audio salons .... " +++++ Well, Guillermo with whom I'm on our self tonearm design it is not only one of my best/close friends but I meet him first time at his show room/store when he was an audio dealer. I think that almost all of us have a similar history to tell. Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Mark: +++++ " When the Vienna Philharmonic plays in Carnegie Hall and I attend a couple of concerts, it is tough to listen to my audio system the next day... " ++++ well here in México we are not so lucky to attend to hear the Vienna Philarmonic or other of the great Symphonic Orchestras out there. Anyway, for some time I always switch on my system just when I come back from a concert/live event and try to hear some versions of what I already heard at the Concert Hall and normally ( specially in the more " today " times ) I like what I hear, no I'm not saying that I can recreate ( faithfully) what I heard " live ", no. Normally I miss ( in my system ) the full attack of the notes ( specially on brass and percussions but on chords too ), the easy/natural " flow " of the music and the greatness of the music dynamic that we can hear/feel only in a live event and that tell us we are hearing live music and not a home recreation. But there are some areas where my system ( like other systems ) sometimes is better: inner detail, transparency and soundstage , all these factors due ( between other things ) that the recording micros were near to the Orchestra stage that ( normally ) where I'm seating at the Hall . I attend as much I can to live concerts and not because my audio " passion " but because always I really enjoy it!, nothing compares to a live music event, any live event. Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Gregm: +++++ " your post makes me nostalgic. I remember it being a time for discovery and very exciting at that! " +++++ It were really exiting times where some of us start to learn in the same way that many other start the audio learning fun today. Harder times than today where there are a lot of options all over the audio world. Not only those " old " times are " nostalgic " about hardware but on software too. It happens that I love/like music but I love/like dance music too and those times were great for me, I remember ( I was a cild ) that my father heard all the time the Big Band's recordings like Tommy Dorsey, Gleen Miller, Xavier Cugat, Harry James, Benny Godman and the like, he and my mother were very good dancers on that kind of music and other Mexican/Latin one. I really like all those great music : I like to hear it and to dance it!. In different age: Ray Connif, Paul Muriat, Caravelli, Roger Willams, Percy Faith, etc, etc. and of course: Sinatra, Benett, Aznavour, M. Mattieu, A. Williams, Belafonte, Steissand, Dassin, etc, etc. During high school I grow up with Rock and Roll: Bill Haley, Elvis Presley, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Fat Domino, Neil Sedaka, etc, etc, too many to name it. Over the time I enjoy a lot the Disco Music age: Munich Machine, Giorgio Moroder, Love an Kisses, Alec Constandinos, Don Ray, Cerrone, Donna Summer, Salsoul Orchrestra, Simmon Soussan, Alphonse Mouson ( Poussé ), Santa Esmeralda, etc, etc, . Btw, been in Steve's house ( Idaho ) and looking for a recording I found a Santa Esmeralda recording and I ask Steve to hear it and I think that both enjoy it the two tracks that we choose: Glory and Don't let me misunderstood!!, I want to tell you that this kind of recordings are not an easy ones because its heavy equakization specially at high frequencies so it is a real test for any audio system and in the Steve's one everything was right. Then the Beatles, Rolling Stones, The Animals, Kinks, Peter and Gordon, Herman Hermitt's, etc, etc. Btw, I enjot all those differents music's age and many others till today, I own almost every recording on it and I'm still enjoy when I hear/heard that music or even when I dance with. The music is a Universal subject and IMHO as important ( but at different levels ) are the names: Bach, Handel, Beethoven, Wagner, etc, etc or Ellington, Fitzgerald, Rollins, Coltrane, Monk, Davis, etc, etc or Eagles, Foreigner, Metallica, Springsten, etc, etc, as important are the other ones I name it. I think that all of us know one or some song/music that bring to us great memories and great feelings and that's one music great characteristic where it does not matters which kind of music your hear or remember. Here in México the people say: " remember is to live "!!!!! Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Raul , Oh yes i remember those days well.I also had a Soundcraftsman which I tried in every conceivable position.As soon as the first LP spun I would marvel at how the sound improved.After listening to two or three more LP's I would start to think that it sounded better in the previous hook up.It took about a month to realize it wasn't working for me.Then I heard the DBX.Wow i still remember that Donna Sommer's little known Spring Affair was playing at the time.This thing really worked. It was fun back in those days we thrilled with each new purchase.I knew nothing about compliance,resistance or even if my cartridge was set up properly.I assumed it was correct because the Audio Dealer himself set it up for me. I didnt start the learning curve until I read my first TAS. I guess I'm a slow learner because there are so many things I have yet to learn.Reading these posts from some knowledgeable people like yourself has helped greatly. What hasn't changed is the arrogance and know it all attitude of some people we deal with.To them I say its never to late to begin Life's Learning Curve. Enjoy |
Elinor, Amen to what you wrote above. Home theater and the internet have killed the retail two-channel audio industry and the camaraderie that went with it and are threatening this hobby. I have a couple of 30-year friendships with guys whom I first met because they were salesmen or fellow customers in various audio salons in NYC and Washington, DC. That's not possible any longer, or at least it's very rare. I also agree that after a session of live music, the home system, much as I love it, is seen to pale by comparison. I'd love to hear any one of the systems that Raul describes above, but I am sure that the same phenomenon applies. |
OK, if we are getting nostalgic over bygone audio days, let me say that a close friend and I have spent many hours over coffee remembering our misspent youth in the mid-1960s during which we spent rainy days at Sam Goody in Philadelphia when it was the only Sam Goody outside of NYC and Paramus, NJ. We sifted through thousands of records, talked about music to the record sales help, and listened to audio names we couldn't afford like KLH, AR, Fisher, Marantz, Garrard, Dual, Shure, Pickering, etc. What a wonderful way to while away a nasty Sunday afternoon. We considered the sales help to be friends and we shared stories about music, recordings, and concerts we had attended. The audio sales people never asked us how soon we were going to make a purchase or how much we were willing to spend. Great memories in an age when recorded music has become nothing more than a laundry list on the internet and equipment something to be looked at and not touched at your local high end dealer. Mark |
Raul, A few years ago I was talking to another audiophile at a show. We were discussing gear we had heard during the day and he mentioned a new and pricey cd player he had recently purchased. It became clear during our conversation that he believed the new player in combination with the rest of his system recreated music equally to a "live" event. I was not surprised that he actually thought this to be true. I told him what I told you when you visited me. When the Vienna Philharmonic plays in Carnegie Hall and I attend a couple of concerts, it is tough to listen to my audio system the next day. After a day or two, my ear forgets the "greatness" of the live event and my system sounds good once again. It has become obvious to me that too many audiophiles are listening to their systems in a "recreation vacuum" with too little time spent in the presence of the real thing and I suspect that many well intentioned manufacturers are doing the same. My current system is very satisfying to many people who listen to it, but so too were the systems I owned over the years which were "cheap" and far less sophisticated by comparison. This has been true I suspect because they made the "recreation" of the real event sound like the real thing in a convincing way. It isn't the dollars spent, it is the care with which they are spent with regard to recreating the real event that makes the system. I am convinced of this and I have been harping on it for nearly 40 years. Mark |
In those old times things were more " easy " ( because that non know how ), I don't worry about tonearm/cartridge resonance frequency, about step-up transformers, about cartridge compliance or output level, about TT mats or clamps, about special power cords or IC and speaker cables, about system racks, about room treatment or seating room position, about amplifier output impedance, about distortions/colorations, about tube or SS technology, about footers or vibration systems, about DD or BD TT, about cleaning LP's other that D'washer, about VTA/SRA or Azymuth, about RIAA accuracy, about and about and about.... etc, etc., like I say it: " more easy " audio life, do you remember?Raul, your post makes me nostalgic. I remember it being a time for discovery and very exciting at that! Even though I was experimenting with support & "vibration control" etc etc... It was also a time when finding out about new equipment, let alone trying it out, was not easy. We would gather together and audition new stuff -- it was an event not to be missed! |
Dear Goldeneraguy: +++++ " I have been guilty of all the above and only after many years and finally a cohesive system..... " +++++ me too, as I posted we must pass through the " learning curve ". Now, there are mistakes because non know-how and there are mistakes with know how about, as we grow up on the " LC " these ones are the ones where when we fix it permit to grow faster and with confidence about. I remember some of the non know how mistakes that I made over time, examples: I use not two but four loudspeakers in front of me, sometimes two of them out of phase ( or something " crazy " ) sometimes two of them at the rear of my room. On those times I use two equlizers ( Soundcraftsman and MXR in cascade ) and one DBX expander that sometimes I put between the eq.'s, sometimes before them and sometimes after them!!!!, I'm not only bi-amping my system but tetra-amp ( four amps each side ) with four different amplifiers!!! ( big, big mistake. ) In those old times things were more " easy " ( because that non know how ), I don't worry about tonearm/cartridge resonance frequency, about step-up transformers, about cartridge compliance or output level, about TT mats or clamps, about special power cords or IC and speaker cables, about system racks, about room treatment or seating room position, about amplifier output impedance, about distortions/colorations, about tube or SS technology, about footers or vibration systems, about DD or BD TT, about cleaning LP's other that D'washer, about VTA/SRA or Azymuth, about RIAA accuracy, about and about and about.... etc, etc., like I say it: " more easy " audio life, do you remember? The in deep know how has a " price " a high one that we have to pay where the reward always is/are well worth it. My learning curve is exactly that: a learning one till today!!!!! Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Goldeneraguy: I agree totally with you on all those different subjects. IMHO I think that like in other knowledge disciplines in audio exist a " learn curve " that all of us not only must pass through but in some ways is endless and all of us are in between that " learn curve ". Many times we want to grow-up and changing audio links we think we are growing up when in reallity ( example ) sometimes we made two back steps: to understand this fact is very important because if we don't note that back step it is almost impossible to be on the right learn-curve " road " . All our mistakes are a very important part of that learn-curve as the good decisions. Where we are ( what we think ) is not so important like where really we are ( for what we think and what other think about ), I think that when what we think goes/even where we really are not only confirm that we are in the right " road " but give us true confidence to drive us in that learn.curve to achieve more steps foreward on our system quality performance improvement. I like that learn-curve and I try every subject orthodox or un-orthodox to grow-up trying not to loose my music sound audio targets. Anyone can say: I'm done, my learn-curve finish, I can't say it but if you anyone can say it please share with us. Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Elinor: +++++ " Of course, the most important ingredient is the "musical ear" that is used to judge and choose the equipment. Unfortunately, that is the key ingredient that cannot be purchased at the audio store but it is the final ingredient that gives a system its tonality and ultimately its sense of realism... " +++++ You put the finger on the ulcer/sore. It does not matters how high price is your system, which top names has your links system, which experiences do you have, etc, etc, if we don't have an educated/cultivated ears we can't grow up and this subject ( personal characteristic ) is very elusive more that we can think about and ( like you say ) something that we can't buy . It is a matter not only to have " educated ears " but good ears that can discern on soun quality performance and that can detect in-accuracies elsewhere the audio system. The person that I already refer on some subject can't heard/hear differences on 1-2 db in his phono stage between gain channels obviously this kind of people have a very hard time to conform/set-up a good system quality performance. Educated ears/good ears are a must to have to enjoy in full dimension the music and not only " lifeless sound ". Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Raul, What I have come to believe from reading these forums is that audiophiles in general wont accept the opinion of an unbiased listener.In fact you can lose a friend by stating that you thought the previous component sounded better then the new $10K +++ product they just placed in their system. We read reviews and tend to agree with what is written rather then what we hear.Whats worse is that rather then admit we made a bad purchase we argue that it needs more break in time or new footers or cabling or anything else that the reviewer or dealer calls SYNERGY. As you stated,in Audioland opposites do not attract. I have been guilty of all the above and only after many years and finally a cohesive system i can admit to it. There is a thread that asks "how much does your system retail for"I have stayed away from posting to it because my system retails for about $50K but I actually paid about $200K with all the early mistakes I made. Whoops,now i hope my wife doesn't read this. Raul,thanks again |
Dear friends: ++++ " You are so right about high end audio performance and "synergy" in a system. Choice of components, set-up, wires, speaker placement in a non-dedicated room are paramount in what an audio system will reproduce " +++++ SYNERGY is an easy word, hard to achieve and with several " roads ". Synergy always help to improve the quality sound reproduction in an audio system if we understand what does mean " synergy ". For professional reviewers MF/AD and the like and for some people synergy means to compensate an audio item/system distortion with other audio item distortion, that's it adding distortion to another distortion. That's why you can read on reviews or some posts on Agon something like this: " if your system/speakers are on a bright side plese don't use this cartridge/cable/amp/etc that it is on the bright side too. " So those people/reviewers determined that that cartridge/cable/amp/etc that they are evaluating is " bright " with out think that maybe that audio item is really neutral/transparent/accurate and it is showing a trouble ( bright ) somewhere in the main audio system other than the evaluated item it self. This remember me what an audio friend made when he change his system speakers for a new ones ( 40K+ ) and he determined that the new speakers had a problem ( does not sound good enough ) due to its active crossover and decided to change it by it self with out take in count that with " one finger " ( that change ) he modified every speaker designer's single targets/effort ( frequency response, IMD, filter slopes, phase response, overall voicing, etc, etc ), why this person can't think that maybe the trouble was somewhere in other link system chain?: big mistake and we have to learn from these kind of mistakes: I have to say that sometime I made/make mistakes and learn from it. So, I'm against compensation trying to have system synergy, IMHO synergy means ( other things the same ) subjects like: tonearm/cartridge matching, speaker/amplifier impedance matching, preamp/amplifier impedance matching, speaker/cable/amp matching, cartridge/load impedance matching, etc, etc, where I'm looking for lower distortion/lower noise/lower colorations/accuracy/etc/etc. A mistmatch on preamp/amp impedance increment the distortions/colorations, example: an amp with an input impedance of 600 Ohms is a " pain in the ass " for any single preamp out there, you have to take extremely care the right preamp with the right impedance for that low impedance input amplifier. Sometimes we have un-matched items because of non know how an example of this was what I " live " in the audio system of that guy with is " new " audio item ( my last post here ) where he mate the wrong tonearm/cartridge each other ( I don't know if he bought the tonearm or the cartridge first ) but he think is right. Btw, he is using a long ( 12" ) tonearm and when I ask him why he choose a long one his answer was something that till today I can't understand: " because the TT was designed for long tonearms ", well I know very well that TT and there is nothing that can/could tell you that was designed for long tonearms, the only reason about: poor know how. That's why I say that synergy is an easy word but hard to achieve, we not only have to have experience, time, money but in deep know how and because of all these subjects is that I give all my respect and " hat off " not only to those four people systems named here but other people like: Spencer, Joe, Doug, Tim; Ctm, Dennis, Desmond, Lim, Bill and some others that I forget their names ( sorry for this ). So, try to achieve synergy ( lesser mistakes and better trade-offs. ) on your system!!! regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear friends: I know that almost everyone of us are in constant " movement " looking for a quality improvement in our home audio system and between other subjects there are at least three things that are very important for to know what we can/could achieve about are: to attend as too much we can to live music events and try to hear as much other home audio systems we can and maybe more important that some other people attend to hear your/our home system. In all cases with a full open mind and with out any pre-conceived/judge . The third not to be " married " for ever to any single audio item/link in our system thinking that it is " perfect " because nothing is perfect. When we attend to hear other people audio systems or when they come to hear ours our attitude ( open and positive ) is very important to grow up: +++++ " thanks for the candid comments/criticism which you offered at my home. Too often visitors are fast to praise but reluctant to offer honest criticism... " +++++ +++++ " Thank you for your honesty in judging my system Raul. I agree with Fcrowder when he says that many listeners will praise your system when they don't necessarily mean it either because they don't have the experience, the right software, or because they are afraid of offending you... " +++++ Over the years I had and have many experiences about of almost any kind and one of the last ones could help to understand that subject: during my trip I visit a person ( other that the ones mentioned here ) that owns a 140K+ audio system with top names all around and where any one expect to hear something of first rate quality music sound reproduction and that's exactly what I was looking for. Well he put some Lp's different tracks and what I heard was a good sound but not music at all, the system sound was lifeless and I comment this with the person ( very bad move from my part ) who told me that one of the audio items was almost new and with " only " 240 hours of play, I take this explanation but makes me no sense because of what I was hearing. After 15-20 minutes we start to hearing the system I note that the right channel had a lower gain that the left one ( with the volume in the same position for both channels ) and I comment on it and he give me an explanation about SPL differences due to its home roof, this explanation does not make sense to me so I ask for hear a CD and see what happen, well with the CD everything ( gain on both channels ) was fine and this confirm that the phono stage was faulty: the subject here is that this person ( and his audio friends ) till that day never take notice of this gain problem. He was surprised about and his only comment was " to compensate that gain difference through the preamp volume position ". I insist on the lifeless system sound and that comment helps because he made two changes in the " new " audio item that made a little better the system sound reproduction. Then I ask which was the value of the load impedance in the phono stage for his cartridge and he give me the value that IMHO was too high and I told him to change at 100 Ohms, he did it and he like it better, but even with those changes the lifeless system sound reproduction still there. This person was extremely angry with my comments ( that I give to him trying to help: nothing more. ) and I try to calm him explain it some of the problems ( and I give some answers/solutions about ) that he has all over his system where he has a lot of " land " to improve the quality reproduction of the system. One of the big problems in that expensive audio system is that the signal pass through several differents stages that IMHO are too much, example: the cartridge signal pass ( at least ) for 22 stages before goes out of the preamp where in each one of those stages the signal suffer a degradation ( distortions/noise/colorations ) on different ways an at different levels, that audio system is full of caps and transformers where the signal pass through even he told me with a conceit attitude that in the " new " item are 14 teflon caps!!!. IMHO I think that he has that lifeless sound system not only because the signal pass over 60+ different stages on it but because his own attitude and closed mind and because even that he has audio experience his knowledge is really low ( he thinks is at the top ). I already posted several times: HUMILITY is a must to have attitude to grow up on our audio hobby. Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Yes, I used the Audio Physic method of speaker placement very effectively when long wall placement was afforded to me in a very small room. The chair was about 1.5 ft out from the wall and my head maybe 6" further when I sat in it for a total of about 2 ft. With proper absorption on the back wall (as well as treatments in other areas) I was able to get very good sound. You'll see a lot of debate on speaker placement and listening position over on Audio Asylum (Rives Forum). As Raul mentioned this certainly will influence the sound, but as always there is more than one way to skin a cat. |
Shadorne, I'm going to assume that you are either not married or your listening room is relegated to a less "public" part of the house, is that the case? My wife "allows" me to use the great room as a listening room. But she had final say on the placement of furniture and decorating. So, yes, my listening sofa is against the back wall; she also complained that I blocked the view of the fireplace, but she gave on that one. I could either have that or get moved to the basement. Personally, I prefer being on the main floor where I have sunlight and easy access to the rest of the house. When I want to listen really critically, I can move to the hassock from where I can listen near field. Besides, as Clio09 mentioned, some manufacturers (Audio Physic for one) suggest you listen close to the back wall to take advantage of the 2pi bass boost. |
Are people making the music wearing certain clothing? Is the recording engineer wearing certain clothing? Are people attending live concerts with certain clothing? This is a new one for me. Do I also need to find out exactly what the musicians and recording engineers were wearing to fully perceive the music to its fullest? I've been very educated with many of your posts Raul and thank you. I can ride this train to a point, but here's my stop. I'll catch up with you on the way back. And I truly mean that. No slight here, but I'm not at that level yet. Smile, you're on audiophile candid camera. : > ) |
Raul, What happens if we just go naked? They sell nude cartridges don't they. Maybe that's a combo made in heaven. :-) Come to think about it, heaven that is, two naked bodies might even be better than just one. I think I'll go try that..........:-) Now if I could just think of some music that would command my attention under those circumstances............ |
Something that I forgot and is important ( maybe you could think I'm a little crazy about ) the fabric of de clothes we are wearing during system listening: preffered cotton/wool against synthetic fabric. We have to remember that our sound perception is not only through our ears but through ears and body in different ways at different levels: we are alive! Regards and enjoy the music. raul. |
Dear friends: This " seat position " subject has 1-3 different paths that can/could help us to know how good is our system. he " SP " link is probable one of the most important link in the whole audio chain home system and we have to take care about seriously. There are some things that we have to take in count like the armchair construction materials that have different tendency to resonate/vibrate where those " vibrations " affect our ears/brain sound perception: the fabric used on the armchair is very important and through my experiences natural fabric is prefered ( wool, cotton, leather, etc. ). The more simple and solid construction the better: we need a non-resonant armchair or where that resonant frequency affect the less the sound perception. My system belongs to my sitting room where the armchair is part of the sitting room furniture set, this armchair is the one that I use to day by day listening but when I have to make an in-deep evaluation audio device I take out that armchair and I use a simple solid wood chair with almost non resonance and where my whole " body " is free: my ears/brain sound perception improve through that simple wood chair ( that I can't use it day by day. ), you can't believe it till you try it: everything change for the better. Another issue is to try not use a 2-3 person couch at the seat listening position but a single armchair or single wood chair, the difference is higher that you can/could think, here the " path " is : try it. There are other issues about like to hear your system ( to evaluation and not necessary day by day ) at " near field " seat position, this " NF " position can tell you a lot of the real quality of your system, again: try it. Obviously everythibg is system dependent and dependent too on our deep/full knowledge audio-music experiences/priorities. Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
in both cases it is mandatory to make a good wall tratment to avoid " interferences" Absolutely agree. However, if you sit on a couch with its back to a wall (head within 1 1/2 foot of a wall) then no amount of treatment is going to "avoid" significant issues, IMHO. Sure you can put "lipstick on a pig" with extensive treatments but apart from a corner or the precise center of a small square room - this is about the worst choice for a place to sit. Again two cents and I am pleased you raised this important point - especially considering the stratospheric systems you mentioned. Indeed it is surprising how a few audiophiles could gain so much for so little (merely changing the room around). Those unfortunate enough to have bought the latest and greatest Class A components but who are unwilling to adjust their listening position because a couch against a wall just looks neat/tidy and makes good utilitarian use of the available space...the "aesthetics" or tastes of the "eyes" are short changing what the ears get, all to often trading visual pleasure/comfort for great sound. |
As Raul mentioned due to space I have had to put my chair up against a wall. Definitely not the most ideal position. I have found that an acoustic panel placed on the wall behind ones head helps tremendously in improving the sound in this position. Interestingly enough I have found other reputable speaker and component manufacturers who preferred having the listening position within 3 ft. of the back wall. Again, with the caveat that one acoustically treat that back wall. Overall this is another interesting and enjoyable thread from Raul. I have personally felt for a long time that replication of a live concert experience in ones listening room, even a dedicated or custom built one, is largely unattainable. However it certainly is possible to be true to the recording (and depending on the quality of the recording that could be a good or bad thing, but that is for another thread). If I want a live experience I go see a concert (at the least great for tuning the ears). If I want a musical experience I sit and listen to my system. |
Dear Shadorne: +++++ " couch with its back up against a wall... " +++++ Many times is beacuse they don't have more " space " and other times because non know how about, in both cases it is mandatory to make a good wall tratment to avoid " interferences " with the sound reproduction. We really have to take care about that sit position ( crucial/critic ). Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
I agree about the seat. I am also stunned by how many expensive systems have a listening position that is a couch with its back up against a wall. It just floors me. People who seem extremely knowledgeable about many facets this hobby who sit against a wall to enjoy between 20 K and 50 K of the highest end gear. |
Dear friends: All of us know that to obtain a " stellar " sound reproduction is not an easy task and that we have to take care on any single link in the audio chain trying to add ( distortions/noise/stages/colorations/etc ) the less in each link and loose the less in each link too taking care about each other link synergy, of course that it is more complex that these words. Well, there is a link that maybe because is obvious almost no one speaks about and that it is very important and I'm reffereing to our seat position and chair, let me explain a little about on what I experienced on different home systems and my own too: in my case I have a single ( one person ) chair/couch that it is confortable but not to much confortable, mi sitting position put my ears at almost tweeter level ( high ) and a little behind the triangle vertice between the speakers and the seat position, normally this is how I listen my system but when I need to evaluate in deep ( any thing ) I put my seat a little foreward ( of course that this is system dependent ) where everything is more precise. Other that the seat position I experience that from my neck and up must be " free " : nothing surrounding it avoiding a high seat back. If your chair has a high seat back ( where you rest part of your head ) make a test: listen seating back on your chair and then listen sitting straight a little forward and you will understand what I'm talking about: in almost all my different home systems about the quality sound percived is a lot better when your neck/head are totally " free ". Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Fred: +++++ " I might add from personal experience that the path does not always lead forward. In some instances it may lead backward and then be corrected. " +++ you are totally right. ++++ " Likewise, each new piece of equipment is not always better or worse, sometimes it is merely different. " +++++ I agree and we have many examples about specially with cartridges where several times one is not a better performer but only different. IMHO it is always a challenge to us to discern when an audio item is different and when is really better. +++++ " It is probably also worth saying that the insertion of a better piece of equipment does not invariably lead to an improvement in sound due to synergies " +++++ well Fred we are in the same " channel ": yes when I introduce a better audio item in my system I don't evaluate till I make a new set up, I never " wait/hope " that because the " new " audio device is better it must improve ( with out any change in the system ) the quality sound reproduction, sometimes that could happen but normally I have to make some " work " around. Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
I might add from personal experience that the path does not always lead forward. In some instances it may lead backward and then be corrected. Likewise, each new piece of equipment is not always better or worse, sometimes it is merely different. It is probably also worth saying that the insertion of a better piece of equipment does not invariably lead to an improvement in sound due to synergies that sometimes form among existing components. |
Dear Stltrains: +++++ " Experimentation is a necessity. " +++++ I could add: any kind of continuous experimentation even those un-orthodox ones, we need an 100% open mind married with nothing but music quality reproduction. +++++ " Another necessity is good comparisons. " +++++ I can add: good and bad comparisons, I always learn about it does not matters how high or low is the quality performance on an audio system, of course that there are a lot lot more to learn in a good system ( like the ones named here ) that in a not so good system. Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Mark: +++++ " Of course, the most important ingredient is the "musical ear" that is used to judge and choose the equipment. Unfortunately, that is the key ingredient that cannot be purchased at the audio store... " +++++ it is more easy to tell that to have it because it is not only that those " ears " have good/wide high quality frequency range perception but that have in deep " musical experiences: live and recorded ". I agree with you : with out that " musical ear " we can have sound but certainly no " music ". Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Mike: +++++ " so many versions of audio nirvana. " ++++ you just put the nail in the finger, that's one of the whys our hobby is so exciting: different paths to be " there ", of course if you have the right know how and the Job's patience. I'm sure you are " there ". Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Raul a well put thread in terms of different systems and there strengths and short comings. I believe that our systems are a extension of our true self. You only will get out what you put into a two channel system. You cant sit back on what you are hearing now if you think you can do better. Experimentation is a necessity. Once you achieve the sound you are looking for then you can sit back and enjoy. My system has gone through many changes and for now i am really enjoying the sound and feel i am getting. Our local audio club gives me the opportunity to hear other systems for prospective. Another necessity is good comparisons. Thanks for the fine thread. |
Dear Mike: ++++ " so many versions of audio nirvana. " ++++ you just put de nail in the finger because that's what is more exciting about our hobby: we can be " there " following different paths!!! if we know how to do it and the patience of Job. I'm sure you are " there ". Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
