I mean, maybe you already made it and you are just great on this regard but in my case I found out that I had " land " to improve with out knowing before I attemp to make it.
regards and enjoy the music,
raul. |
Dear Jimjoyce25: No I don't try it. My rear wall is at 5m from the seating position and belongs to a small parlor that is full of " things " on all walls.
Certainly the diffusors work almost everywhere for the better.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Goldeneraguy: Nice to know that somethings of what I post/posted are/were useful to you.
I really appreciate your humility to share it with us.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Mike: ++++ " so many versions of audio nirvana. " ++++
you just put de nail in the finger because that's what is more exciting about our hobby: we can be " there " following different paths!!! if we know how to do it and the patience of Job. I'm sure you are " there ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Mike: +++++ " so many versions of audio nirvana. " ++++
you just put the nail in the finger, that's one of the whys our hobby is so exciting: different paths to be " there ", of course if you have the right know how and the Job's patience. I'm sure you are " there ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: ++++ " You are so right about high end audio performance and "synergy" in a system. Choice of components, set-up, wires, speaker placement in a non-dedicated room are paramount in what an audio system will reproduce " +++++
SYNERGY is an easy word, hard to achieve and with several " roads ".
Synergy always help to improve the quality sound reproduction in an audio system if we understand what does mean " synergy ".
For professional reviewers MF/AD and the like and for some people synergy means to compensate an audio item/system distortion with other audio item distortion, that's it adding distortion to another distortion.
That's why you can read on reviews or some posts on Agon something like this: " if your system/speakers are on a bright side plese don't use this cartridge/cable/amp/etc that it is on the bright side too. "
So those people/reviewers determined that that cartridge/cable/amp/etc that they are evaluating is " bright " with out think that maybe that audio item is really neutral/transparent/accurate and it is showing a trouble ( bright ) somewhere in the main audio system other than the evaluated item it self.
This remember me what an audio friend made when he change his system speakers for a new ones ( 40K+ ) and he determined that the new speakers had a problem ( does not sound good enough ) due to its active crossover and decided to change it by it self with out take in count that with " one finger " ( that change ) he modified every speaker designer's single targets/effort ( frequency response, IMD, filter slopes, phase response, overall voicing, etc, etc ), why this person can't think that maybe the trouble was somewhere in other link system chain?: big mistake and we have to learn from these kind of mistakes: I have to say that sometime I made/make mistakes and learn from it.
So, I'm against compensation trying to have system synergy, IMHO synergy means ( other things the same ) subjects like: tonearm/cartridge matching, speaker/amplifier impedance matching, preamp/amplifier impedance matching, speaker/cable/amp matching, cartridge/load impedance matching, etc, etc, where I'm looking for lower distortion/lower noise/lower colorations/accuracy/etc/etc.
A mistmatch on preamp/amp impedance increment the distortions/colorations, example: an amp with an input impedance of 600 Ohms is a " pain in the ass " for any single preamp out there, you have to take extremely care the right preamp with the right impedance for that low impedance input amplifier.
Sometimes we have un-matched items because of non know how an example of this was what I " live " in the audio system of that guy with is " new " audio item ( my last post here ) where he mate the wrong tonearm/cartridge each other ( I don't know if he bought the tonearm or the cartridge first ) but he think is right.
Btw, he is using a long ( 12" ) tonearm and when I ask him why he choose a long one his answer was something that till today I can't understand: " because the TT was designed for long tonearms ", well I know very well that TT and there is nothing that can/could tell you that was designed for long tonearms, the only reason about: poor know how.
That's why I say that synergy is an easy word but hard to achieve, we not only have to have experience, time, money but in deep know how and because of all these subjects is that I give all my respect and " hat off " not only to those four people systems named here but other people like: Spencer, Joe, Doug, Tim; Ctm, Dennis, Desmond, Lim, Bill and some others that I forget their names ( sorry for this ).
So, try to achieve synergy ( lesser mistakes and better trade-offs. ) on your system!!!
regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: How good is your system? IMHO is a wide " open door " to re-think about and try to improve our home audio system.
Obviously there are endless form to improve our system and that is not the subject here but more what to take in count to evaluate what we have, there are no limitations or absolute answers to make it, as all we know everything is relative. I would try to be nly in an enunciative way somethings that could help us when we want to evaluate what we have:
first than all to be un-biased in our system performance like if we are evaluating a friend's system and not ours.
always help to have in deep experiences on music live events ( any kind ) as experiences on other home audio systems ( any kind ), so attend to both " places " as much you can.
choose 5-6 different recordings ( LPs ) that not only you know very well but that can tell you about the quality performance of your systems in different sound reproduction areas: different frequency response ranges, timbre, tonal balance, dynamic, trasients, etc, etc.
Bring with you some of this recording or ask for it every time you hear other systems.
Be consistent about these LPs using it always and only and change any one or add other one if you find something really better. Remember one thing, all these tests LPs that you choose are the ones to use to evaluate it does not matters if the " music " in the LP is not one of your favorities.
try to be relaxed and in good mood when evaluate any system or system's changes. Don't try to evaluate nothing if you are or feel tired.
choose the best day hour to make evaluation's systems , example: when the overall noise floor is lower.
try not to go in a serious system evaluation when there is other person in your room system, always try to be alone.
try to have one or two audio friends that you trust because they are experienced ones and that will tell you what they hear in an un-biased way and not what you want to hear from them, you need honest evaluations/answers not friendly ones.
almost all audio systems have a very short SPL range where performs at its best, try to find the one for your system and the right SPL on each of those LPs that you choose like your evaluation recordings. Sometimes differences of 1db in SPL make " the difference ".
how good is the system at low SPL? how much low?
I think that on the thread and for what some people posted the seat position already be clear as the near field position system and the kind of chair ( free space body surrounded ).
try to find some good CD recordings ( the same recording tyou are using on the LPs ) to compare/evaluate the bass/midrange range, specially the low bass.
every frequency range is important when we are making system evaluuation but it help to concentrate first on both frequency extremes, normally when both are on target the system is ok. overall.
sometimes help to hear how its sounds off axis where normally you can's hear the standing waves that put veils on the system performance.
if you have headphones ( good ones ) use them and compare the differences you hear with and with out.. This could help to find which kind and where room treatment need and for many other things.
don't stop to make changes in your system only because other people had bad experinces about or because the changes go against audio theory/myths or reviewers opinion, try it and give time to those changes to settle down.
time to time check the screws on the loudspekers drivers and thigt it if necessary.
time to time too clean all your system connectors and check that the connection is tight specially the cartridge/tonearm/headshell wires.
be sure that your system is grounded at only one point: usually at the phonolinepreamp where every item in the audio system is connected through.
try to check each channel gain. output impedance and frequency response on the electronics and speakers , it must be even in both channels.
choose the best trade offs according your priorities on sound reproduction and remember that nothing is perfect.
try to lower overall system distortions, any kind.
OPEN MIND attitude, think that everything always can be improved including what you have.
Well there are many other subjects about but IMHO these ones can/could help to any one.
Try to remember that one of the main " name of the game " at audio hardware level are: accuracy and distortion free system performance.
Try to remember too that the only way to beat what we have is through three simple steps: Learn, Learn and Learn, from anybody every single day!!!!, be humilty: IMHO no one knows everything on audio.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Shadorne: I agree with you and I can add that it is not only to have that low bass octave in " quantity " but more important with the same quality of the other sound reproduction frequency ranges, this target is not easy to achieve/find.
This last subject about quality has many little issues and one of them is to have the right quality signal that goes on the subwoofers.
This means that you have to have the right preamp that can gives that low bass octave in the right high quality way.
IMHO that bass quality subject is of paramount importance.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Fred: +++++ " The only difference with well thought out systems is that the tradeoffs are better chosen " ++++
yes you are right, those always thr tradeoffs are the ones that define the system " personality ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul |
Dear Mark: +++++ " Of course, the most important ingredient is the "musical ear" that is used to judge and choose the equipment. Unfortunately, that is the key ingredient that cannot be purchased at the audio store... " +++++
it is more easy to tell that to have it because it is not only that those " ears " have good/wide high quality frequency range perception but that have in deep " musical experiences: live and recorded ".
I agree with you : with out that " musical ear " we can have sound but certainly no " music ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Mike: Something be missing on what I posted on you, it has to be read this way:
" Btw, I'm sure you are " there ". "
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Stltrains: +++++ " Experimentation is a necessity. " +++++
I could add: any kind of continuous experimentation even those un-orthodox ones, we need an 100% open mind married with nothing but music quality reproduction.
+++++ " Another necessity is good comparisons. " +++++
I can add: good and bad comparisons, I always learn about it does not matters how high or low is the quality performance on an audio system, of course that there are a lot lot more to learn in a good system ( like the ones named here ) that in a not so good system.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: All of us know that to obtain a " stellar " sound reproduction is not an easy task and that we have to take care on any single link in the audio chain trying to add ( distortions/noise/stages/colorations/etc ) the less in each link and loose the less in each link too taking care about each other link synergy, of course that it is more complex that these words.
Well, there is a link that maybe because is obvious almost no one speaks about and that it is very important and I'm reffereing to our seat position and chair, let me explain a little about on what I experienced on different home systems and my own too:
in my case I have a single ( one person ) chair/couch that it is confortable but not to much confortable, mi sitting position put my ears at almost tweeter level ( high ) and a little behind the triangle vertice between the speakers and the seat position, normally this is how I listen my system but when I need to evaluate in deep ( any thing ) I put my seat a little foreward ( of course that this is system dependent ) where everything is more precise.
Other that the seat position I experience that from my neck and up must be " free " : nothing surrounding it avoiding a high seat back. If your chair has a high seat back ( where you rest part of your head ) make a test: listen seating back on your chair and then listen sitting straight a little forward and you will understand what I'm talking about: in almost all my different home systems about the quality sound percived is a lot better when your neck/head are totally " free ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Shadorne: +++++ " couch with its back up against a wall... " +++++
Many times is beacuse they don't have more " space " and other times because non know how about, in both cases it is mandatory to make a good wall tratment to avoid " interferences " with the sound reproduction.
We really have to take care about that sit position ( crucial/critic ).
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Dgob: All those beautiful and learning experiences like the ones you had are what help to grow up and to conform a better quality performance home audio system like the one you own.
Open mind attitude and a little of adventure spirit always help and IMHO a must to have to be " there ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Something that I forgot and is important ( maybe you could think I'm a little crazy about ) the fabric of de clothes we are wearing during system listening: preffered cotton/wool against synthetic fabric.
We have to remember that our sound perception is not only through our ears but through ears and body in different ways at different levels: we are alive!
Regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
Dear Newbee: I can say that I never try it. Please test it and let us know your experiences about an add on the video!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: This " seat position " subject has 1-3 different paths that can/could help us to know how good is our system.
he " SP " link is probable one of the most important link in the whole audio chain home system and we have to take care about seriously.
There are some things that we have to take in count like the armchair construction materials that have different tendency to resonate/vibrate where those " vibrations " affect our ears/brain sound perception: the fabric used on the armchair is very important and through my experiences natural fabric is prefered ( wool, cotton, leather, etc. ).
The more simple and solid construction the better: we need a non-resonant armchair or where that resonant frequency affect the less the sound perception.
My system belongs to my sitting room where the armchair is part of the sitting room furniture set, this armchair is the one that I use to day by day listening but when I have to make an in-deep evaluation audio device I take out that armchair and I use a simple solid wood chair with almost non resonance and where my whole " body " is free: my ears/brain sound perception improve through that simple wood chair ( that I can't use it day by day. ), you can't believe it till you try it: everything change for the better.
Another issue is to try not use a 2-3 person couch at the seat listening position but a single armchair or single wood chair, the difference is higher that you can/could think, here the " path " is : try it.
There are other issues about like to hear your system ( to evaluation and not necessary day by day ) at " near field " seat position, this " NF " position can tell you a lot of the real quality of your system, again: try it.
Obviously everythibg is system dependent and dependent too on our deep/full knowledge audio-music experiences/priorities.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Goldeneraguy: I agree totally with you on all those different subjects.
IMHO I think that like in other knowledge disciplines in audio exist a " learn curve " that all of us not only must pass through but in some ways is endless and all of us are in between that " learn curve ".
Many times we want to grow-up and changing audio links we think we are growing up when in reallity ( example ) sometimes we made two back steps: to understand this fact is very important because if we don't note that back step it is almost impossible to be on the right learn-curve " road " .
All our mistakes are a very important part of that learn-curve as the good decisions.
Where we are ( what we think ) is not so important like where really we are ( for what we think and what other think about ), I think that when what we think goes/even where we really are not only confirm that we are in the right " road " but give us true confidence to drive us in that learn.curve to achieve more steps foreward on our system quality performance improvement.
I like that learn-curve and I try every subject orthodox or un-orthodox to grow-up trying not to loose my music sound audio targets.
Anyone can say: I'm done, my learn-curve finish, I can't say it but if you anyone can say it please share with us.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Dgob: I like you always learn through Agon, great place with in deep knowledge people in almost any audio topic!!! and yes there are many " notable " and very expensive home audio systems out there.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Gregm: +++++ " your post makes me nostalgic. I remember it being a time for discovery and very exciting at that! " +++++
It were really exiting times where some of us start to learn in the same way that many other start the audio learning fun today.
Harder times than today where there are a lot of options all over the audio world.
Not only those " old " times are " nostalgic " about hardware but on software too. It happens that I love/like music but I love/like dance music too and those times were great for me, I remember ( I was a cild ) that my father heard all the time the Big Band's recordings like Tommy Dorsey, Gleen Miller, Xavier Cugat, Harry James, Benny Godman and the like, he and my mother were very good dancers on that kind of music and other Mexican/Latin one. I really like all those great music : I like to hear it and to dance it!. In different age: Ray Connif, Paul Muriat, Caravelli, Roger Willams, Percy Faith, etc, etc. and of course: Sinatra, Benett, Aznavour, M. Mattieu, A. Williams, Belafonte, Steissand, Dassin, etc, etc.
During high school I grow up with Rock and Roll: Bill Haley, Elvis Presley, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Fat Domino, Neil Sedaka, etc, etc, too many to name it.
Over the time I enjoy a lot the Disco Music age: Munich Machine, Giorgio Moroder, Love an Kisses, Alec Constandinos, Don Ray, Cerrone, Donna Summer, Salsoul Orchrestra, Simmon Soussan, Alphonse Mouson ( Poussé ), Santa Esmeralda, etc, etc, . Btw, been in Steve's house ( Idaho ) and looking for a recording I found a Santa Esmeralda recording and I ask Steve to hear it and I think that both enjoy it the two tracks that we choose: Glory and Don't let me misunderstood!!, I want to tell you that this kind of recordings are not an easy ones because its heavy equakization specially at high frequencies so it is a real test for any audio system and in the Steve's one everything was right.
Then the Beatles, Rolling Stones, The Animals, Kinks, Peter and Gordon, Herman Hermitt's, etc, etc.
Btw,
I enjot all those differents music's age and many others till today, I own almost every recording on it and I'm still enjoy when I hear/heard that music or even when I dance with.
The music is a Universal subject and IMHO as important ( but at different levels ) are the names: Bach, Handel, Beethoven, Wagner, etc, etc or Ellington, Fitzgerald, Rollins, Coltrane, Monk, Davis, etc, etc or Eagles, Foreigner, Metallica, Springsten, etc, etc, as important are the other ones I name it.
I think that all of us know one or some song/music that bring to us great memories and great feelings and that's one music great characteristic where it does not matters which kind of music your hear or remember.
Here in México the people say: " remember is to live "!!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Mark: +++++ " When the Vienna Philharmonic plays in Carnegie Hall and I attend a couple of concerts, it is tough to listen to my audio system the next day... " ++++
well here in México we are not so lucky to attend to hear the Vienna Philarmonic or other of the great Symphonic Orchestras out there.
Anyway, for some time I always switch on my system just when I come back from a concert/live event and try to hear some versions of what I already heard at the Concert Hall and normally ( specially in the more " today " times ) I like what I hear, no I'm not saying that I can recreate ( faithfully) what I heard " live ", no.
Normally I miss ( in my system ) the full attack of the notes ( specially on brass and percussions but on chords too ), the easy/natural " flow " of the music and the greatness of the music dynamic that we can hear/feel only in a live event and that tell us we are hearing live music and not a home recreation.
But there are some areas where my system ( like other systems ) sometimes is better: inner detail, transparency and soundstage , all these factors due ( between other things ) that the recording micros were near to the Orchestra stage that ( normally ) where I'm seating at the Hall .
I attend as much I can to live concerts and not because my audio " passion " but because always I really enjoy it!, nothing compares to a live music event, any live event.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Elinor/Lewm: +++++ " We considered the sales help to be friends and we shared stories about music, recordings, and concerts we had attended. The audio sales people never asked us how soon we were going to make a purchase or how much we were willing to spend... " +++++
+++++ " I have a couple of 30-year friendships with guys whom I first met because they were salesmen or fellow customers in various audio salons .... " +++++
Well, Guillermo with whom I'm on our self tonearm design it is not only one of my best/close friends but I meet him first time at his show room/store when he was an audio dealer.
I think that almost all of us have a similar history to tell.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Learsfool: This post on subwoofers is part of the subwoofer thread:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&27&4#27
you can read too through that thread the posts that start with: " Dear friends: "
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Learsfool: Please be my guest and email me about: it will be a pleasure to meet you here.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Learsfool/Jimjoyce25: +++++ " Everyone hears a little differently, and has different tastes. " +++++
+++++ " I am not sure how you are defining your term "tonal balance" in this context. " +++++
+++++ " I just don't think a subwoofer is necessary to reproduce the "weight," as you call it, of the lowest notes of acoustic instruments, even the pipe organ. " +++++
+++++ " Sitting in an audience, a drum played softly seems to have a very different weight or forcefulness or "ominousness" from a softly played violin. " +++++
+++++ " Bass parts can be very complex and very delicate, but at the same time the signature weight IMO is always there. " +++++
+++++ " I get the sense that a number of otherwise very demanding audiogoners don't have extended low bass in their systems," +++++
+++++ " To me it's very important to the music. " +++++
For years to now I attend every single week to an acoustic music live event ( mostly classical. ), I love music like everyone on this forum.
I agree that everyone of us hears a little different and that has different tastes and as a result the " tonal balance/timbre " subject could be different on any one of us but IMHO and everything the same it exist one right " tonal balance/timbre " where everything is right on target and where what we are perceiving through our whole " body " not only seems " natural " but has the overall rightness of the music
How to be sure that all of us can /could understand what really means the right " tonal balance/timbre " ?, very hard to say and very complex subject that depend on many other subjects.
First than all that our ears are a healthy ones with no " anomalies " other than the age natural loss, that we have enough experience ( better in deep ) on both: acoustic live and amplified type music, that we have enough experience and understanding on audio home systems ( different ones ) and its room interaction, that we understand the differences between distortion/colorations ( any ) and accuracy non-distorted/non-colored sound home system reproduction ( here the subject is not what we like but what is right like it or not ), that we own an audio system that " permits " identify overall what has the " rightness " and what does not ( I can go on and on on this but for today it could be enough on it ).
From the last paragraph/sentences IMHO I think that almost all the people that have the same or similar overall experiences on live music and audio level can/could agree the same for " tonal balance/timbre " subject when are hearing the same track on an analog recording and can/could agree with the " rightness " or not of that recording passage.
Over the years and through my experiences " talking " about music and audio subjects with several audio friends ( Agoner's or not ) where I already hear/heard their home audio systems I almost always agree with those that have the same/similar/near overall " know-how " level than mine and it does not matter that our " tastes " on kind of music we all normally hear.
So maybe here ( I can't say for sure ) you Learsfool , as you point out, are really different from Jimjoyce25 not only for what both posted but from your " origin " and from the very different home system each one own.
Now taking the " low bass " subject there are several aspect around it that both of you " touch " and other that you don't:
IMHO every single instrument frequency range is perceived by our ears/brain/body with its own " weight "/timbre, that " weight " that almost always we asociate with the low bass it is only part of the " timbre " of that low bass instrument(s) frequency range at a specific SPL, btw to any musical acoustic instrument.
Affirm that we don't need a subwoofer to reproduce the " weight " of the lower notes could be a misunderstood or non experiences about with a good subwoofer/audio system, a true stereo active subwoofers integration to almost any home audio system IMHO it improves not only the quality low bass performance but many other parts of the whole quality performance on that home audio system. Please take a little of your time reading this:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153
Learsfool, IMHO and with all respect: till you or any one else hear the right subwoofers/audio system set up you not only can't talk ( with facts ) about but you can't imagine and can't know what you are missing!!!!
I already heard many different home audio systems including several great Agoner's ones. In these Agoner's systems I agree with Jimjoyce25: " don't have extended low bass in their systems, " and certainly all of them are missing the paramount glorious experience of a good subwoofers set up: IMHO nothing comes close to that marvelous and unique experience.
As a fact I only heard one audio system that I can name it: a right subwoofers/audio system set up and this system does not comes from Agoner's. Yes, I think that the right subwoofers set up is the " stray link " that to all of us can make that our home audio system really shine and really give us a full enjoyment over what we have today.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: Some people email me/asking how I rank my system over other systems.
This subject is a very delicate one not only for me but I think that for everyone but the title on this thread is almost that: your system, how good it is?
I wonder why till today no one post about: post how good is his system, I wonder if it is something wrong that put a " stop " to everyone to not speak on the subject ( yes, there are something on that subject through the virtual systems but I never read someting like this: " my system is a great one ". ).
Well, I invite you to do it here, every time is a good time to begin on the subject and " hurl down " barriers about.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Thomaseisig: You almost be there, let me to explain: till today I never read ( at least on this forum ) " my audio system is really great " or " my audio system beats ..... ".
All of us are very shy about ( even you ) and never say it directly, I wonder why are we so shy about when many times we are " experts " on almost any subject and gives our " advise " ?, I know that like Elinor posted that almost always we own what we like and according to our own limitations on know-how and money but I know too that in this forum are some persons with the right know-how and whealthy enough to their systems be a real great systems by any audio standard where it is almost impossible to improve its performance.
Thomas can you the first one?
Regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
Dear friends: For almost all of us it is a " routine " talk about the importance of the room where our audio system belongs.
I have no doubts that and answer to the thread question: Our system, how good it is?, is directly/intimate related to another question: how good is the system/room interaction/relationship?.
We all know the critical importance of that " interaction/relationship " and that's why many of you already care about some way or the other and several of us made almost nothing about.
There are several factors to cover on that room/system interaction but I want to refer this time to the importance of the room treatment.
My bias to a room treatment is: make it very careful ( first step: identified " problems " . ) watching to lose the less. What I mean to " lose the less ".
Well, I heard some home audio systems in dedicated rooms with whole/overall room treatment ( very expensive ones. ) that sounds very good but not good enough for the investment on it.
IMHO ( and I'm not saying is totally true, maybe I'm wrong. ) the professional or non-professional room treatment is something like the quimiotheraphy ( therapy against Cancer ), it takes ( out ) the bad room/system anomalies and along those bad anomalies it takes ( out ) too some " good vibes " .
I use very little " room treatment " in my audio system ( you can read in my virtual system about. ) and till last week I was really satisfied with. Well, a few days ago I was at my friend Guillermo's place checking and testing our tonearm prototype and before I say him " bye bye " I saw in one open closet two white room treatment sheets that he was not using and ask for he borrow to me and then I take it and come home with.
My idea was to use these Skyline RPG devices ( like 50-60 cm squares. ) in the ceiling of my system room to break those ceiling first reflextions, unfortunately I can't do it because my ceiling has not a " flat " surface but has a wrinkle/crease surface ( here in Mexico name it: tyrol. ) so I can't fix those Skyline sheets through double-sided tape.
So, what to do with before I return it to Guillermo?, well I take it and put each one right behind each speaker down on the floor and against the window.
I don't try to play any record because that was not what I was planned: I was planned to have on the room celing.
Day after this I start like almost everyday to hear some music and almost from the very first note I was " surprised " to heard a different quality performance from what I'm acustom to, as more hearing time I take in count that that different quality performance was not only different but a better stepped one. So, I take my reference recordings and play with to find that the improve was/is almost incredible ( and is difficult that something realy take me by " surprise ", you know. ) where the only change in the room/system was these two Skyline RPG diffusor sheets ( btw, its works from 125hz to 4khz, where our brain/ears are so sensitive. ).
To say that those only two " pieces " makes a paramount difference could be a misunderstanding: NO the differences is almost like to hear a new system wih the same tonal balance but where every single frequency range in the audio frequency spectrum improve in clarity, transparency, definition, trasients speed/dynamic, a lower way lower distortion music images, focus and the " true sensation " and emotional feeling of " you are there ".
Gone almost totally the " feeling " that I'm hearing a home audio system ( it does not matters how good the system. ), the feeling is that now there is almost " nothing " between the music and me/you. This kind of experience is so intimate that I only hear/heard on some circumstances in live events.
I can say that any one of the changes/up-date ( over the years. ) that I made/make in my system compare with the quality improvement with these room treatment items.
These RPG devices have a very high index/factor of diffusion/reflextion along very lower index/factor of absorption.
Certainly I will order very soon more of these Skyline RPG devices, step by step looking to an improve that for what I already have I can't imagine any quality improvement.
Amazing!! for say the least.
I have no words to share with all of you how truly exited I'm about. A must to try.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: There are other improvements through the Skyline room treatment devices: the audio system noise-floor goes down and the " vitual " soundstage place where the music comes out comes " blacker " than before.
Along these good improvements the clicks/pops and LP noises that are not part of the recording sessions goes down too, this is that the LP noise floor is now lower than ever and this means a higher music enjoy act!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
Dear friends: I just return from heard two other home audio systems where I bring with me those RPG Skyline to test it and see what happen.
I have to report that in both systems, at a different range level, the Skyline's makes a difference for the better. We use it on almost the same position than in my home system and works realy fine.
Maybe many of you already have these room treatent devices and if you never try it I think that the rewards on it are worth the " effort " to try it.
In the past I try some room treatment devices from ASC/RPG and other manufacturers and only this time with the Skyline I " receive " an improvement with out any lose sign.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Jimjoyce25: You can read about my size room at the virtual system place.
IMHO the effectiveness of those diffusors varies more than the size room with the system/room interaction and the own system quality performance.
It is clear to me that the sound diffusion is a must to have like the main room treatment.
How much/where diffusors will we need?, this depend on our each one system/room " anomalies " and what we want to fix or improve.
As I posted this " exercise " has to do it step by step, I'm ordering another pair of Skyline's to try it in the fron wall ( like these ones. ) and in the left side wall. I almost know ( feeling ) that I will need several of these diffusors and I almost know too that the rewards will be astonish.
I like these diffusors because give me a huge improvement with out any lose and this fact is very important to me: no trade-offs!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Goldenguy: I just try the Skylines in my left wall ( I don't have right wall where is my system ) instead the Sonex 4" and it works really fine.
The changes were importants because instead of the Sonex absorption way the RPG diffusors give me more " music " with more coherence and transparency.
Trhough these two different RPG room positions experiences I decide to build by my self some similar devices for a " full " diffusor room treatment and I mean full at the front wall/window, that left wall and ceiling.
All this will be taking me some time/effort but I think it will be worth to do it, we will see.
Regards and enjy the music.
Raul. |
Sear Jim: Other valuable factor/characteristic on those RPG devices is that the manufacturer warranty not only the frequency range operation but the diffusion coeficient/index value and absorption coeficiente/index value too over that frequency range.
The devices were designed in a scientific way as you can attest through its patent information.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Jimjoyce25: I put against the front wall ( actually a window. ) in vertical position ( from the floor and up. )
I will try in front and as you say horizontally.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: Here ( in this same thread ) I posted something that IMHO is an important audio link where many of us don't take care yet or don't give its real importance:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1219677256&openflup&22&4#22
I comeback with because the importance of the subject and because I found a system picture that explain what I'm refering to:
http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/1269877847.jpg
this is part of the Elescher audio system:
http://forums.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1269878673
it is not enough to " see " it for understand the " quality differences " we achieve: we have to try in our each one audio system and " feel " it yes " feel it " because we " hear " through our whole body.
I know that that chair in the picture is not the most comfortable one but in my audio experiences that plain/humble chair improve our enjoyment hearing music through our audio system.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Goldeneraguy: +++++ " I guess I'm a slow learner because there are so many things I have yet to learn... " +++++
how quick or slow we are or grow up on the learning-curve depends on many subjects: what we are looking for, our attitude about, open mind vs close mind, money, patience/time, self experiences, how much we want to learn, how restless/worry we are overall, have we an adventure spirit?, etc, etc
I think I already told the next but I think that our audio learning-curve is almost endless.
+++++ " What hasn't changed is the arrogance and know it all attitude of some people we deal with.To them I say its never to late to begin Life's Learning Curve. " +++++
we are surrounded on audio " arrogance ", not only on some audio dealers and professional reviewers but on some audio friends too like that 140K audio system TX guy owner that because of that audio " arrogance " attitude his system is almost " lost ".
Like you say and I totally agree: " never is to late to begin Life's Learning Curve!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Fred: +++++ " I might add from personal experience that the path does not always lead forward. In some instances it may lead backward and then be corrected. " +++
you are totally right.
++++ " Likewise, each new piece of equipment is not always better or worse, sometimes it is merely different. " +++++
I agree and we have many examples about specially with cartridges where several times one is not a better performer but only different.
IMHO it is always a challenge to us to discern when an audio item is different and when is really better.
+++++ " It is probably also worth saying that the insertion of a better piece of equipment does not invariably lead to an improvement in sound due to synergies " +++++
well Fred we are in the same " channel ": yes when I introduce a better audio item in my system I don't evaluate till I make a new set up, I never " wait/hope " that because the " new " audio device is better it must improve ( with out any change in the system ) the quality sound reproduction, sometimes that could happen but normally I have to make some " work " around.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: I know that almost everyone of us are in constant " movement " looking for a quality improvement in our home audio system and between other subjects there are at least three things that are very important for to know what we can/could achieve about are: to attend as too much we can to live music events and try to hear as much other home audio systems we can and maybe more important that some other people attend to hear your/our home system.
In all cases with a full open mind and with out any pre-conceived/judge .
The third not to be " married " for ever to any single audio item/link in our system thinking that it is " perfect " because nothing is perfect.
When we attend to hear other people audio systems or when they come to hear ours our attitude ( open and positive ) is very important to grow up:
+++++ " thanks for the candid comments/criticism which you offered at my home. Too often visitors are fast to praise but reluctant to offer honest criticism... " +++++
+++++ " Thank you for your honesty in judging my system Raul. I agree with Fcrowder when he says that many listeners will praise your system when they don't necessarily mean it either because they don't have the experience, the right software, or because they are afraid of offending you... " +++++
Over the years I had and have many experiences about of almost any kind and one of the last ones could help to understand that subject:
during my trip I visit a person ( other that the ones mentioned here ) that owns a 140K+ audio system with top names all around and where any one expect to hear something of first rate quality music sound reproduction and that's exactly what I was looking for.
Well he put some Lp's different tracks and what I heard was a good sound but not music at all, the system sound was lifeless and I comment this with the person ( very bad move from my part ) who told me that one of the audio items was almost new and with " only " 240 hours of play, I take this explanation but makes me no sense because of what I was hearing.
After 15-20 minutes we start to hearing the system I note that the right channel had a lower gain that the left one ( with the volume in the same position for both channels ) and I comment on it and he give me an explanation about SPL differences due to its home roof, this explanation does not make sense to me so I ask for hear a CD and see what happen, well with the CD everything ( gain on both channels ) was fine and this confirm that the phono stage was faulty: the subject here is that this person ( and his audio friends ) till that day never take notice of this gain problem. He was surprised about and his only comment was " to compensate that gain difference through the preamp volume position ".
I insist on the lifeless system sound and that comment helps because he made two changes in the " new " audio item that made a little better the system sound reproduction. Then I ask which was the value of the load impedance in the phono stage for his cartridge and he give me the value that IMHO was too high and I told him to change at 100 Ohms, he did it and he like it better, but even with those changes the lifeless system sound reproduction still there.
This person was extremely angry with my comments ( that I give to him trying to help: nothing more. ) and I try to calm him explain it some of the problems ( and I give some answers/solutions about ) that he has all over his system where he has a lot of " land " to improve the quality reproduction of the system.
One of the big problems in that expensive audio system is that the signal pass through several differents stages that IMHO are too much, example: the cartridge signal pass ( at least ) for 22 stages before goes out of the preamp where in each one of those stages the signal suffer a degradation ( distortions/noise/colorations ) on different ways an at different levels, that audio system is full of caps and transformers where the signal pass through even he told me with a conceit attitude that in the " new " item are 14 teflon caps!!!.
IMHO I think that he has that lifeless sound system not only because the signal pass over 60+ different stages on it but because his own attitude and closed mind and because even that he has audio experience his knowledge is really low ( he thinks is at the top ).
I already posted several times: HUMILITY is a must to have attitude to grow up on our audio hobby.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Elinor: +++++ " Of course, the most important ingredient is the "musical ear" that is used to judge and choose the equipment. Unfortunately, that is the key ingredient that cannot be purchased at the audio store but it is the final ingredient that gives a system its tonality and ultimately its sense of realism... " +++++
You put the finger on the ulcer/sore. It does not matters how high price is your system, which top names has your links system, which experiences do you have, etc, etc, if we don't have an educated/cultivated ears we can't grow up and this subject ( personal characteristic ) is very elusive more that we can think about and ( like you say ) something that we can't buy .
It is a matter not only to have " educated ears " but good ears that can discern on soun quality performance and that can detect in-accuracies elsewhere the audio system.
The person that I already refer on some subject can't heard/hear differences on 1-2 db in his phono stage between gain channels obviously this kind of people have a very hard time to conform/set-up a good system quality performance.
Educated ears/good ears are a must to have to enjoy in full dimension the music and not only " lifeless sound ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Goldeneraguy: +++++ " I have been guilty of all the above and only after many years and finally a cohesive system..... " +++++
me too, as I posted we must pass through the " learning curve ".
Now, there are mistakes because non know-how and there are mistakes with know how about, as we grow up on the " LC " these ones are the ones where when we fix it permit to grow faster and with confidence about.
I remember some of the non know how mistakes that I made over time, examples: I use not two but four loudspeakers in front of me, sometimes two of them out of phase ( or something " crazy " ) sometimes two of them at the rear of my room. On those times I use two equlizers ( Soundcraftsman and MXR in cascade ) and one DBX expander that sometimes I put between the eq.'s, sometimes before them and sometimes after them!!!!, I'm not only bi-amping my system but tetra-amp ( four amps each side ) with four different amplifiers!!! ( big, big mistake. )
In those old times things were more " easy " ( because that non know how ), I don't worry about tonearm/cartridge resonance frequency, about step-up transformers, about cartridge compliance or output level, about TT mats or clamps, about special power cords or IC and speaker cables, about system racks, about room treatment or seating room position, about amplifier output impedance, about distortions/colorations, about tube or SS technology, about footers or vibration systems, about DD or BD TT, about cleaning LP's other that D'washer, about VTA/SRA or Azymuth, about RIAA accuracy, about and about and about.... etc, etc., like I say it: " more easy " audio life, do you remember?
The in deep know how has a " price " a high one that we have to pay where the reward always is/are well worth it.
My learning curve is exactly that: a learning one till today!!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: I attempt several times to post this information in the thread where really belongs ( http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153 ) but was impossible to do it and that's why I post here about:
For almost six months my system was running with only one subwoofer ( left-right channel bass signals in mono way. ) due that the other one was down because a failure, two/three weeks ago this one was fixed thank to Velodyne and I want to share with all of you something about:
due that I own two similar subwoofers we try to fix it at home, first we have to know where the failure comes so we check ( through the sub in good condition ) every single module and we found that the failure comes from the amplifier module that with out the diagram was a very hard time to fix ( and José has not enough time to do it ) it so I contact Velodyne and they agree that the amplifier module was the problem and that I send it to repair ( amplifier module alone ).
I did it and ten days later ( Sirspeedy! ) I receive a " big " box with the amplifier module ( at least that was what I think at that moment ) and when I open the box I was surprised that they not only send me the amplifier module but the whole subwoofer modules ( including the metal rear plate ): they send me a whole new electronic subwoofer modules!!!!, my hat off to Velodyne!
Over those six months my ears/brain were totally accustom/equalized to that single subwoofer quality system performance.
I connect the second one and put some of my prefered Lp's and the quality performance of the system " suffer " a big improvement against the " one subwoofer " fashion, this improvement is on the quality performance level not on quantity.
Through this experience I confirm again that one subwoofer audio system is the wrong way to go.
IMHO nothing compares to two subwoofers in true stereo fashion!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Halcro: +++++ " The Absolute Sound?.........it can be over-rated. " +++++
I don't think so. Like in a home system a live event quality performance ( acoustic/amplified ) is dependent on many things, the place: concert hall/club/stadium, the place " sound treatment ", the performers, the performers quality, the performers's quality instruments, the stage equipment quality on amplified events, your seat position on that event, etc, etc,.
Maybe it is a lot more complex that in our homes.
I think that here we are talking about on the same subject:
+++++ " The SOH is so vast that even a compliment of 100 orchestra members is 'lost'! " +++++
but that fact IMHO can't tell us in no way that the live music: " it can be over-rated. " +++++.
Like many things, it can be great and not so great even bad live music events but not for the music it self.
I understand exactly what Elinor means and agree with him.
I attend regulary ( each week ) to live music events and on the best ones when I play my system I feeel " lost " and makes me put my foots on the floor: nothing compare to a good live music event!
Of course that sometimes the music live event was so bad that when we play our system we are on " heaven " and this is true but over my years of experiences about that it is not the " rule ".
I play my system when I come home after a music live event more than all to undertand in a better way what is happening in a music live event and what is hapenning in my system and the whys.
I don't have any doubt that you have a very high quality music sound reproduction system and maybe you speak in that way because your music live event experiences were not good and I can understand that.
IMHO and as I already posted there are some " things " that we can hear in better way in our systems than in a music live event but IMHO this fact can't tell us either that the music live event performances are over rated.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Jimjoyce25: Not yet. This weekend I will try on the room's left wall.
Btw, " on the floor in front of the speakers ", I need help here: you mean in the floor in front, in horizontal or vertical position?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Koegz: Certainly not, I miss that low bass octave. I posted: ++++ if I put really exigent then I can say that all these system “ miss “ the last bass octave/half octave..+++++
and the I posted: ++++ " I can say that I never feel the necessity of that bass octave during all those many hours of music pleasure hearing all those audio systems. " ++++
I always try to adapt to the audio system I'm hearing, first to " understand " it and second to enjoy it.
IMHO when a person ( any ) heard/live a good room/audio system integration where it can hear ( seamless ) that last bass octave like a part of the system whole quality performance then there is no " return ", the experience is " unique " and worth to have it every single day.
Again certainly I miss the lack of subs on those 2 channel systems. It is a step over/up on the system quality performace and a high step to improve our music audio system reproduction enjoying/pleasure, no doubt about.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: As many of you I choosed my seat/chair position in my audio system area where I achieved the " best quality performance overall ".
I used this seat position for many years and always for me and audio friends there were no single compliants about.
I still don't have any compliants but a few weeks ask my self: what if this is not the real " best seat place/position "? and I taked the work/fun to find out.
I tested some new seat positions looking for changes on the main " atributes/characteristics " on LP quality performance sound and then looking for improvements with out any trade-offs. Time consuming for say the least, fortunately I already have a complete proccess "/discipline that help me on the subject.
Finally found out that today there is a better seat position to hear my system and that's consistent with almost any recording and at almost any SPL.
My new audio system seat position is 14cms. back to the original one.
You could say that that 14cms. are a small number and in fact it is but you know what: the improvements were " substantial " where the main one was: a more palpable and real feeling that " things are happening right with you ", the self music color ( not coloration ) taked a real and true color and not that before I had a non-true color but today " things " improve for the better in this very important regard.
My concern before I tested some new positions was about bass performance that fortunately does not been degraded.
IMHO could be worth and with some added fun that you could try about even for those audio systems where the seat position was choosed by a microphone system help for flatest frequency response.
Anyway, I think that the rewards in my audio system made it not only fun but worth it.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
