Redstarwraith
,Thanks for the quick reply. That sounds like the conversation I had with Evan, Not easy to pin down a recommendation
Ohm Walsh Talls and amplification
Ok, I am perplexed and I would appreciate any feedback you can give me. I am interested in getting a pair of Ohm Tall speakers. Initially (based off from Steve Guttenberg's and Zeos' reviews) i assumed that the 2000s were the ones for me. I don't see where Zeos' or Steve's rooms are any bigger than mine but, I measure the square footage of my room last night and it's only 353 square feet! Zeos himself even said that the 1000s were the correct size for his room, but he just wanted to go bigger. So, my first question is: Can you use a bigger Ohm Tall than what your room requires (as Zeos does)? Also, these speakers seem to love power. Steve drove his with a Mytek amp and a big Pass Labs amp. I cannot afford Pass Labs and, the Mytek...well, I *could* maybe swing that but, Zeos uses a pair of Crown amps that are not made for audio but for DJs and live entertainers, etc. Obviously, he's very happy with the results. I finally did call John Strohbeen and he confirmed that the Talls love power... he suggested Mytek, Peachtree, certain NAD models, and Emotiva as affordable amps that have good results. I then asked him about Zeos using the Crown amps and he said, "Yeah, that's another way to go that's very affordable." I asked him if the sound was good and he said, "Yeah, it sounds good. In fact, we used something like Crown that here in our factory for quite a while." So, my second question is: what success have you had in the way of amplification with your Ohm Talls?
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Here is some information that might be useful. I recently put in an order for a pair Ohm F-5015s that have onboard Icepower subwoofer amps to power the subwoofers. My wood furniture provides some constraints on the depth of the amp that that fits and the heat that is produced. I had several discussions with John and Evan at Ohm on integrated amps / separates. John told me that I should get an amp rated at 300 watts to really make them sound good. Of the options we discussed, only one amp fit my furniture, had the required power (not Parasound), had the needed subwoofer inputs and had a lower price (not NAD). I just purchased a gently used Peachtree Nova 500 per John’s and Evan’s recommendation and saved some money from the current selling price. The Peachtree wifi module will become available in February, which is about the time that my speakers will ship to me from Ohm. |
As I have posted elsewhere, I recently replaced a broken Odyssey Audio Kismet Reference amp (A/B) with a class D amp from Arion Audio. The Arion is actually smoother and cleaner than the Kismet, by a very noticeable amount. The combo of the Arion S500 with my 2000s is wonderful, and the Ohms clearly showed the many differences between the two amps. Bottom line, John's speakers will sound good with almost any amp of sufficient power, but ever better with better amps, including really good ones that cost more than the speakers. |
Oddtodd, in my conversation with John, I made it clear I could not afford something like a PassLabs amp, so I asked him to talk in terms of affordable gear. Like was mentioned above, he readily told me about driving the 2000s with the (very affordable) Outlaw receiver. I asked him how Ohms sound with Class D amps as a lot of them are affordable. He said they sound fine and told me a number of customers had success with Emotiva amps. I specifically mentioned Zeos' driving his with those Crown PA amps and John said, "Yeah, that's another way you could go." And I laughed and asked, "Yeah, but...I wonder how that SOUNDS?!" And he said, "We had something like that same set up for quite a while here in our shop. It sounded good!" |
Not sure of your budget....but....here is an absolutely fantastic sounding amp...sort of a blend of tubes, class A and Class A/B....normally $1700 new but being offered for $1100...and maybe they will take less. I own a CherryAmp and can't say enough good things. https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=166431.0 |
HI @johor72 I dont want to sound like an ad for https://nelionaudio.com/ .... 480w like that of one of Greg's upgraded M1.0t would do the trick.... he sells them already upgraded... on his site.. .he sells out and then gets more in... or you can find one used and then send it to him for upgrade... the trick is to find a non working one for cheap and then send it off to get it upgraded and modded and its get repaired in process ( no addition charge unless its a real basket case... ). https://nelionaudio.com/index.php?/services.html/carver/carver-amplifiers/carver-m-10t-mkii-opt002-r... but that is my opinion.bestbill |
I have a variation of the same question. I love my restored Walsh 4’s and drive them with a Parasound Hint integrated amp. I wonder about the merit in adding a power amp and if so, if a new model or one from their era (e.g. Carver / Sunfire) would be a better match. I don’t want to spend or make room for something with minimal listening impact. Better to invest in upgrading to Walsh 4000? Comments and recommendations welcome. |
HI @bondmanp I agree with you , that you want to show your product in its best possible light! And I also understand where John is coming from .... Like when he showed the Ohm 2000 two years ago at the NYC audio show ... He used an Outlaw RR 2160 .... and was using " lamp cord" .... and old oppo dvd for a cd player and a Node 2 ... People in the audience asked " Hey is that lamp cord ? , he said yes ... " The person then asked him ... " if we used better cords and interconnects, amps and sources ... what would happen? John just said " It would sound better." John was showing sub 3k speakers and thought it would be odd to demo the 2000 with 10k dollars of amps, sources and interconnects... That NYC show the total system was under 5k with speakers , amp etc... It can only get better... on another note.. my main room system I have a pair of Walsh 5 ( ca 1990 or so) that I had Ohm upgrade ... John and Evan did a great job on the "upgrade" to Super Walsh 5 LE.... See his blog...https://ohmspeaker.com/news/how-big-is-a-big-room/ That is my living room , the one with the two dogs hiding in plain sight! My wife does not let me play them loud... which is a shame as I have them hooked up to Carver Seven-7 Solid state monoblocks... 565 watts / channel... room level... and its great ! Good Hunting Bill Sohne |
I am also interested in getting some Ohm Walsh speakers but I know so little about class D amplifiers that I need to do some listening. After spending my entire life with A/B amps I thought I might just grab a Schiit Vidar or two until I can make a more informed choice. Does anyone have any experience with Vidar(s) with the Ohms? |
@high-amp... No worries. My 2000s sound wonderful at background levels, even listening to lossey internet radio. Too good, actually, as I am often unable to continue what I am working on, and instead focus on the music. I often end up cranking the volume anyway because, well, you know, this amp goes to 11! |
I agree, mapman, and I understand John’s approach. But he could do both, showing people that his speakers will sound good with whatever they feed them, but they will reward upgrades with even better sound. You will not have to buy new speakers as you improve your system. Over 10 years with my 2000s is a case in point. I have upgraded almost everything in my system, and the 2000s have benifitted from every upgrade. Especially at an audio show, where many will want to know the speakers’ full capabilities, this could be a way to get attention from the high end consumer and journalists. Based on what I read here about Ohm’s demo at the NY audio show, he may be trying just that. |
@bondmanp My theory is JS smartly markets to the masses not the very limited high end audio market so he presents systems for modest cost that sound great. Since he sells speakers not amps, he keeps the amp costs down. I agree though at high end shows you want to show the best your product can do so larger amp investment is needed. But then again, keeping the combo price down especially the amp helps sell more speakers so there you go. Hard to argue from a business perspective. Back in his Tech HiFi days, high end audio was relatively unknown. Most companies including Tech Hifi just tried to sell the best sounding products they could at prices many could afford. |
Zero doubt in my mind that my 5000's (and now Pro-3000's) highlight differences in equipment changes more so than many other speakers I've owned. It's pretty remarkable. One of the more recent speakers I have owned is the DynAudio Contour 60. The OHM's far and away highlight equipment differences more than the Dyn's (and the dyn's did to an extent). I like the OHM's a fair amount better. I have another pair of speakers being built right now, but I won't let go of my 5000's before I really get a chance to put them head to head. I've never done that before. I usually sell when I decide to buy. I will absolutely be keeping at least 1 set of my 5000's or 3000's. Personally I do hear differences in them, the voicing is quite similar as John states. But the 5000's are better, no question. |
@bsohne... I have said for a few years that John Strohbeen might be making a mistake by demoing his speakers at shows using only midfi gear. Especially when he is showing more than one pair, I have been saying that better gear would result in a better show demo. It seems he finally did that in New York. And, surprise, it sounded great. I hope he gets enough good feedback from this show to encourage him to show his speakers to their best advantage again in the future. |
HI @redstarwraith I was replying to a post about the NYC 2019 audio show... specifally about Ohm demo room.... thought you might find it of interest... as they were demoing Super 2s ( Walsh 2 that been factory upgraded to current 2000 specs ). ---- from this thread https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/new-york-audio-show-2019#1836194 my reply. : Ohm is a favorite of mine as well... There factory is around the block from my office... I agree with what you said ( The OP ) below" This is where the Walsh's blew me away, they did have a Carver amp/pre as part of their rig, as the female voice is always a wonderful indicator of the true depth, capability, and beauty of a loud speaker." What John and Evan was presenting at this show was a Retro system that has been upgraded to current standards.... So you saw what looked to be Walsh 2 but they were upgrades to Super 2's .... you can see them at Ohm website .... The Carver rig you noticed has been gone thru by Nelion Audio .... check Greg's site too... This is actually a Carver M-1.0t mkII opt002 Restore and Upgrade by Greg at Nelion Audio with the following specs.. Power into 8 ohms: Clipping into 8 ohms: Dynamic into 8 ohms: and the Carver Pre-Amp had the Carver C-1 Bill D Mod done by Greg at Nelion Audio.. The idea was vintage gear that was brought up to todays standards and people can get this level of sound for a reasonable amount of money.... I happen know this level of detail cause the Carver equipment is from one of my home systems ! and yes I have it hooked up to a pair of Super 2s and a TD-125MkII Good Listening ! Best Bill Sohne |
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@redstarwraith... I think the warranty is 10 years. Life expectancy of the caps he uses is 12 years. But even if it was under warranty, my point was that I am no longer able to maneuver this 64 lb amp easily enough to pack and ship it. So, I am done with it. Too many catastrophic failures for me anyway. I desire reliable gear. I think it was powerful enough for my 2000s, but I think the 500 watts of my Arion Audio amp is better. My room is in the upper range of the room size for the 2000s. But beyond wattage, the Arion amp sounds better. Cleaner, more neutral and just as dynamic and holographic as the Kismet. |
I listen to a lot of classical music as well as folk, americana, jazz and other forms of music that are heavily acoustic. I agree that this system is amazing in its ability to throw an image that seems like the players are there with you. Even more amazing to me is the ability to change positions and move around the room while listening and have that sonic image behave the same. Sadly, it doesn't fix bad recordings, but if it did that, it would be messing with the good ones, too. |
@mlsstl I use the c5i with my Ohm 100s. Our two setups are very similar then. Other than absolute volume levels possible, it’s a very hard combo to beat. The sound reminds me a lot of eletrostatic speakers like Quad ESL but with better dynamics and the unique Ohm room filling soundstage and large sweet area of coverage. Very much like the players are in your room. |
I have a set of Ohm 1000s that I run with a Bel Canto C5i. As mapman noted, this is 60 watts/channel, BUT that is at 8 ohms. The C5i doubles its power output at 4 ohms which is indicative of a very good power supply. My Ohms are 6 ohm nominal loads, which means I have about 90 watts available to power them. I'm not a headbanger in terms of volume. I have a sound level meter and the mid-80 dB range is very loud for me. I have no problem reaching that level cleanly. I'm very happy with my system. |
I recently went from a SS class a/b amp (Odyssey Stratos upgraded to Kismet Reference) which died to a class D, Arion Audio S500 for my 2000s. I couldn't be happier. While I have great respect for John Strohbeen, I disagree with him on a few points. Rather than place my 2000s close to the front walls, I pull them out into the room a bit. I do run them with a pair of Vandy subs, though. Also, while John likes to point out that his speakers sound good with low or mid to fi gear, and they do, IME, they will sound better with better gear. Every upstream upgrade I have made has improved the sound of the ohms, and not in a subtle way. So, go with the best amp you can afford now, but upgrade when you can. I think you'll be glad you did. |
Just a couple of points.... If you do the math, the 2000's will need about around 24 watts for you to experience a sound level of 86db at a listening position about 10' back from the speakers...ok...now lets add some safety factor...say 6 db for peaks and you are at 100 watts....and nothing wrong with having more than 100 watts...more is safer than less. If you listen louder than 86 db...then add more watts....if you listen lower...then still stick with 100. Now, as to the Crowns....since a number of the guitar stores sell them with a 60 day return...you can try them easily. Here is my impression of the XLS2000 which I owned for a while....powerful low end but not detailed....massive soundstage in width but zero depth....ever so slightly bright on the top end....slightly brighter in the midrange.....overall sound presentation is forward and not laid back. Pretty good sound for under $500 but if you are willing to spend more, you can do a lot better, especially if detail and soundstage matter. But, since it is so easy to try them and get something else....Nuprime, PS Audio, CherryAmp, VanAlstine....there are tons of choices (and you don't need to spend a ton)....and see what you think when you have them side by side. Since almost everything is returnable these days, you can't really make a bad choice and no matter what any of us tell you...you can't really know without trying it in your system and listening the way you listen!! |
@redstar....*G* Agreed...and I'm playing into a larger volume of space..16dx 21w x 12h(average)...and decidedly 'industrial'.... ..and mine are more the DIY version of the HHR TLS-4's...slightly larger, not so 'pretty', But...I'm working on the latter....;) (...and right now, 'the walls have ears'...so I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to sell shares in the Brooklyn Bridge or 'lake bottom property' ...but...) Omni's in surround sound are definitely Different than typical driver systems. Even without 'surround enhancement' by the equipment, without 'adult beverages' or whatever your state (regional, not mental) allows.... Above average studio work on some recordings seems to have this marked tendency to 'place' instruments and occasionally performers into perceived locations that may not be noticed with 'normal' speakers. Now, this may be induced by phase interaction/interference patterns of the waveforms they generate . And,not to ignore the reflections off of walls, furnishings, and anything that exists within a given space. I have plenty of those, as do most habitable spaces. *S* In my near future, I intend to 'set up' in a new one that promises to have less of that, and be decidedly 'clear(er)' of these 'early reflection elements'. *L* So I hope to either dispel or enhance what my senses try to make sense of. Anyway...I thought I might broach my experience with you, if only to hint at what an omni system might be if you really become not just a convert, but a fanatic. There's not enough of 'us' around... "Embrace the Force, Luke!" *L* It surrounds you, after all....;) (As for those 'others' reading this....you can start throwing your 'bricks' now....;)..."Shields Up" *L*) |
I use a stack of Crowns (5kw total power) to run my media room, 2 pair Klipsch Cornwalls, 2 Heresy, 1 Cornwall center, big VMPS sub. The Crowns sound amazing, very neutral, no noise, even with the efficient Klipsch, they are nigh indestructible, and can vaporize listeners if I turn it to 11. the Klipschorns in the listening room are on Rogue tube monoblocks but I think I could run Crown to them with little degradation. |
Hahaha! "Bend sheetrock"... I had some Klipsch Chorus IIs that could do that. Just sold those to help finance this OHM excursion. And yeah, from what I've heard from Steve Guttenberg, the OHMS sound nice at higher volumes. *I myself am not a loud listener. I will occasionally turn things up, but not too often. |
...as the 'resident rogue Walsh fanatic' (DIY; definitely not Ohms....).... If you've an existing 5.1/7.1 integrated amp or (horrors!) all-in-one... (while you're comparing/weighing your options...)...you Might Consider... 2 pairs of the smaller Ohms...perhaps of the 'satellite series'...a matching sub of a 'sane' size, since it is a small(er) space.... (Ohm does have their return policy, so it's reasonably a 'safe trial' to do...) ...and listen to what happens. *s* Ohms>Walsh>omni's: 360 deg. radiation. If you'd like 'loud(er)", the best means to do so IMHO with any Walsh is to add 2 more if the space (and your taste) allows it...volume control of the 'back' pair is a plus. At a low volume, subtly occurs. Turn it up, and you may be able to flex sheetrock. ;) They have this 'additive' quality. *G* But, as noted...I'm just a extremist fan of the 'basic concept'... |
The Rogue Pharaoh is severely lacking in grunt. I've owned both the Sphinx and the Pharaoh and neither are high-current amps in practice. One owner on the Steve Hoffman Forum had a lot of difficulty driving his Maggie 1.7s with it. He switched to a PrimaLuna Dialogue tube amp of only 70 watts/ch and had no problem driving the Maggies. Note in Stereophiles' measurements of the Sphinx that it clipped at 150 watts/4 ohms, well below its claimed spec of 200 watts/ch. If you're considering Class D, best to go with one of the Hypex N-Core based units. Some of these newer amps are at least meeting claimed output and measuring well. N-Core is the latest development from the guy who wrote the proverbial book on class D topology. As for Rogue, I owned a Cronus Magnum II and it sounded way more ballsy than the class-D hybrids. Aside from a high noise floor it was a great sounding amp. Same for the Parasound Halo Integrated - way more grunt than the hybrid Rogue amps. Another you should look at is the Monolith 2X. https://www.amazon.com/Monolith-Multi-Channel-Power-Amplifier-Channel/dp/B073GHXYX1?th=1&psc=1 It was designed by ATI which is a very respected amplifier manufacturer, known better in the pro audio community. Audioholics measured this amp and it performed better than many at much higher prices. |
I think any decent amp can power them up just fine. They will however respond quite well to added power and upstream upgrades. I’m very surprised how revealing they are compared to others I’ve owned of differences in sources. As for the size, I think they perform remarkably well size for size. That said, I think John might undersize them just a shade if you like a little bass/impact. Also, look at the room construction and floor substrate. I have a dedicated room in my finished basement, but it's padding and carpet over concrete. No question the concrete floor benefits from a bigger speaker/ability to put out bass. My room is 13 x 17, closed, 9ft ceiling. The 2000’s would work. I have some 5000’s (and I have the treble and midrange in the + position, midbass and low bass in the neutral) and love them in here. That said, I just had some Pro-200’s upgraded to Pro 3000’s (pretty nice!), and they do a pretty darn good job of thumping the room. One they broke in a bit, remarkable what they do for their size. While my 5000’s are the "square" cabinets, the Pro 3000’s use 3000 drivers on a round "cabinet". I think there are some advantages to the round cabinets. The 3000’s bass I would be very happy with without a subwoofer also, just like the 5000’s. That said the 5000’s can absolutely thump the room. The 3000’s thump/punch, but not quite like the 5000’s. They might sound a shade tighter though. Ultimately I’ll likely sell either my 5000’s or 3000’s as I have another pair of speakers being built. But, I’ll keep one set I suspect for another room. The OHM's do some very cool, fun things. |
Switching power supplies for Class D amps can be very compact circuit boards and need not be big and bulky like traditional amps. A good exsmple is BelCanto ref1000m amps that are the bomb with my Ohm Walsh speakers. They deliver up to 45 amps peak current. In general if the amps specs indicate doubling or near doubliing of power from 8 to 4 ohms that is a good indicator in lieu of specific current delivery specs. |
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Class D amps are generally not good current sources. They tend to have minimal headroom and weak power supplies. This is why a 200 watt/ch AB MOSFET amp will usually sound more powerful than a 400watt/ch class D amp. Some will contend otherwise but that has been my experience. Certainly there are exceptions out there but probably not in any class D amp that's been around for more than a few years. That tech has only recently begun to sound decent. I'd look at the power supply of the amp first and foremost. Investigate whether it has a large transformer and large filter caps? (look for something at least 20K microfarads/channel). The Parasound Hint6 is a high-current amp and can drive almost anything. I'm told Naim amps are as well. |