I'd love to hear the impressions of people who've actually spent some time with these speakers to share their sense of their plusses and minuses. Mapman here on Audiogon is a big fan, and has shared lots on them, but I'm wondering who else might be familiar with them.
Arro's shouldn't sound "flat". That should get better with break-in I expect.
I've heard Arro's but never a/b'ed them concurrently with Ohms.
I think the Arros should do extremely well with imaging (for a standard box design) at least at the sweet spot, but I do not think they (or any standard box design) will ever sound like the Ohms IMHO. Ohms image distinctly in their "own special way".
I have heard Arro's that were not set up optimally stack up well against larger and more expensive speakers from PSB and McIntosh that were also not set up optimally. They all sounded very good but could have sounded better with proper set-up.
I've heard other Totems set up better in the past that sounded similar to comparable Dynaudios at the time. I can honestly say that in a/b tests in my house, the Dyns, as nice as they are, cannot touch either pair of Ohms.
Yeah, well I probably was getting a little defensive there.
It'll be interesting to see if the Arro's sell or not. If they don't, maybe I will break them in some more and see again how they stack up against the Ohm's
I do have to say that I can't imagine the Arro's besting the Ohm's in the soundstage dept. I thew some Diana Krall on the CD player today and it was spooky how beautifully the Ohm's rendered a "holographic" sense of things. :-) The same pieces on the Arro's, if memory serves, sounded flat by comparison...
" Well, if any of you guys want to give my arro's a good home"
Sorry, but I/m not looking to replace my Ohms.
Otherwise, for a smaller room, Arro's would be on my short list.
Rebbe, seriously, obviously only you know what satisfies you. Same with any of us. You don't have to justify your decision making process to others. All that matters is that you like where you are at and can now attain enjoyment from your system sooner rather than later.
"Jaybo, whether the Arros will dramatically change to resemble the Micro Talls or not, you must agree that 10 hours on any speaker is insufficient time on which to base a judgment on their performance."
I would agree also.
One thing I would say with certainty is that the Totems will not provide the wide sweet spot and ease of listening that the pseudo-omni Ohms do. I suspect the bass will not match the Ohms as well. Other than these two things, the two are more similar sounding than different from what I have heard.
Live and learn. We've all taken some financial hits I think over the years one way or another with this hobby.
Next time, in order to mitigate the risk of potentially taking a loss, consider either buying used first (so you can sell without taking a hit if needed) or only from a vendor (like Ohm) that provides a money back guarantee if not completely satisfied.
I thoroughly understand your point, and it's certainly something that I thought about. Did I really give the Arro's a fair shake?
Here's the thing: the Arro was kind of stressing me out. If I sat in exactly the right spot and had my head, within a few inches, in exactly the right spot, then I could begin to hear what they are capable of doing. But you know, although I used to listen to music that way when I first got into high-end audio back in the mid-1980s (move the left speaker a quarter of an inch one way, toe in the right speaker 10° the other way...) I don't listen to music that way anymore. I just want to enjoy it. That doesn't mean that I have totally lost touch with my geek side: next week, I'm going to begin to build Bottlehead Seduction phono pre-amp kit! And granted, I am sure that the Totems would continue to improve over time.
But after playing with the Arro (even in 10 hours of listening, you can do quite a bit of futzing around) and even after realizing that tilting the speakers back a few degrees improved their sound, I hit my "life's too short for this" threshold.
I am married and have a small child. Furthermore, my listening room is right below my wife's home office. And I have a full-time job. The result of all of this is that my listening time is limited and very precious, and the thought of how long it would actually take me to get to a hundred hours of usage on those speakers so that I could THEN begin to make a serious comparison with the Ohm's, is just overwhelming. In the limited time that I have to listen to music, I want to be relaxing and enjoying music, and not involved in a cognitive exercise of evaluating one speaker against another.
The thing is,the Ohm Micro Walsh Talls, with a little bit of work positioning the speakers optimally, sound much more pleasing to me "out-of-the-box" than did the Totems, and I have no reason to doubt the the MWT's will continue to improve with time. I find their presentation so seductive and pleasing that they make the want to sit down and listen to music for hours on end, without having to do a lot of futzing positioning and so forth.
So yes, I understand that I may have flushed a few hundred dollars down the toilet, but it's one of those "chalk it up to experience" things. Somebody else will get a good break on the Totem, and, good for them!
I thoroughly understand your point, and it's certainly something that I thought about. Did I really give the arrow a fair shake?
Here's the thing: the Haro was kind of stressing me out. If I sat in exactly the right spot and had my head, within a few inches, in exactly the right spot, then I could begin to hear what they are capable of doing. But you know, although I used to listen to music that way when I first got into high-end audio back in the mid-19 80s (move the left speaker a quarter of an inch one way, tell in the right speaker 10° the other way...) I don't listen to music that way anymore. I just want to enjoy it. That doesn't mean that I have totally lost touch with my geek side: next week, I'm going to begin to build Bobble head Seduction phono pre-amp kit! And granted, I am sure that they would continue to improve over time.
But after playing with the Haro (even in 10 hours of listing, you can do quite a bit of futzing around) and even after realizing that tilting the speakers back a few degrees improved their sound, I hit my "life's too short for this" threshold.
I am married and have a small child. Furthermore, my listening room is right below my wife's home office. And I have a full-time job. The result of all of this is that my listening time
Tvad makes a good point. So, Rebbi, you have already paid for the Totems and their used-market price is not going to change in a few days or weeks. So, may as well break them in fully and then evaluate them. Instead of going by initial impressions, you could do a systematic in-depth comparison, especially as you already have both speakers there and no extra trouble or expenses are involved.
Frankly, I was hoping I'd get a little more on eBay than on A'gon. I paid over $1400, with tax, for the pair, including both speaker grilles (which are an extra cost item for the Totem's) and little metal "saucers" for the spikes to sit in to protect hardwood floors. With Arro's going for what looks like an average of $800 here on A'gon, I'll take a bath on those speakers when I sell them, and they've got less than 10 hours of time on them. So yes, they're up on eBay, and I'm hoping that the fact that they include the speakers, grilles and free shipping to the continental US brings in a good price. :-) If that fails, I'll go with A'gon next. ;-)
I've been researching the Ohms and speakers in general for a few months now. I've listened to the Sunfire CRM-2's, maggie 1.6's, various Martin Logans and other brands for a while. The Ohm's intrigue me more than any other design I've come across.
This thread has been GREAT. I actually log-on twice a day to check for updates, and so far I really like what I'm reading.
I'm about a year away from making any sort of purchase, but I appreciate all of the input you all are giving one another. Good stuff! It is making me a bit impatient to make a purchase though...
I am happy that OP is enjoying his Ohm Micro Walshes. But why put Totems on eBay rather than A'gon? :)
As someone interested in comparing various brands, and it was good to hear that they bested Totems, I would be most interested to know if anybody here has been able to compare them with other faves talked about here: Tyler, Salk, Daedalus, Proac, GMA, Zu etc? It would be interesting to determine if the Ohms are simply good at their asking price or could they actually play in the same league as these others?
The more I play the Ohm's the more I'm impressed with the seamlessness of the sound... must be the large frequency range covered by that Walsh driver. And the midrange... wow! Female voices sound stunning.
I will also say with pleasure that there's not a hint of glare or harshness here... these speakers sound like music, not like "hi-fi."
I called John at Ohm today and thanked him, and told him how delighted I am with the MWT's. He asked me how I thought they compared with the Arro, and I described the increased bass authority and texture, the sense of air and space around the instruments, the depth of the soundstage (the back wall "disappearing") and so on.
He said that the MWT's take between 60 and 100 hours to fully break in, and that they'll keep sounding better. He said that bass extension and midrange sweetness will improve, while the highs should remain fairly well the same.
He also said that the biggest mistake people make with the Ohm's is pulling them too far off the back wall. He was really appreciative of my call.
Jaybo is correct. I've had the micro's and moved to the 100's when I had a room change. The signature is the same just more bass and they play a bit louder from what John has told me (I don't really crank my tunes).
ohm has the same character thoughout the line...a lost art for most brands...in a bigger room, the 100 would have more bass, provided the amp will control them.
The ones to truly thank are Lincoln Walsh for coming up with the basic principle that the Ohms realize back in the 1960s and John Strohbeen for delivering cost effective, high performance, robust and well supported implementations of Walsh's design over the years.
Thanks. I was playing around with the speakers earlier today and tried moving them further apart (as close as I can get in my room to the equilateral triangle) and six inches or so closer to the rear wall.
KABOOM!
Suddenly, the soundstage locked in and got huge... the room is full of sound now, and the imaging is precise. Thrilling, just thrilling! :-D
The Ohm website is the best source for pricing info as mentioned.
I believe the range for new speaks with standard cabinet finishes is ~ 1000 for micros for smaller rooms to about $6000 for 5's that can be adjusted for either large, medium or small room sizes.
Ohm occasionally offers newer Walsh CLS drivers in refurbed cabinets at a discount. I think you have to call them and ask to see if something is available there.
They also often take trade in of older Ohm speakers with cabinets that can be refurbished even if the drivers are not in good working order. This can bring the price down further.
Can someone here give me an idea of the cost of the new Ohm's. I have not heard these Walsh speakers since the F about 30 years ago. What are the price differences for micros, 5's etc. Thanks Rich
Another DAC I can recommend is the VDA-2 from Channel Islands. I use one with the VAC-1 Power supply and find it excellent. It is solid state but has a very smooth but detailed sound. I've auditioned a few other DACs (Benchmark DAC1, Stello, etc.) but always went back to this one. Also, the customer service is outstanding too.
The Ohms are very neutral so they let the sound of the DAC come through. Each DAC will sound different.
I'm using the Paradisea with both my Denon player/recorder source and a Roku Soundbridge for accessing a music server and internet radio. Compared to the DACs built in each device, the Paradisea in general offers the benefits commonly attributed to tubes versus solid state mainly improved 3-D imaging and microdynamics combined with a more analog like smoothness with less digital edginess. It makes my digital sources sound more like my analog phono source.
The exact sound is a function largely of the tube used (and RCA phono IC used to connect the DAC to the pre.
Rolling different tubes defintely has major effect on the resulting sound. The stock GE tube is what I am using. THe used unit I purchased also came with a second vintage Tung Sol tube (see recent posting I made to my system for more info on the differences). There are other tubes that can be tried as well.
I'm using an Average Audioquest Toslink IC from Roku to DAC and a similar coax IC from CD to DAC. I do not notice any significant difference in sound between the 2.
Overall, the Ohms are more open, smoother, and dynamic overall with the Paradisea and digital sources. I would not go back to SS for this. They sound better now with digital sources than ever before.
Though I like the effect the tube DAC has on digital sources, I also do not feel a need for tubes with my phono rig either at this point. If I changed my pre-amp, I might just stick with the single tube in the DAC and continue with a good SS pre-amp that just lets the sources shine through naturally.
Tubes power amps in general are not a good match for Ohms I believe because of power demands and difficult loads to drive. But a single tube further upstream near the source can really make some magical things happen.
Slight thread digression, but Mapman, adding a tube DAC is an interesting idea. I was recently looking at the Paradisea +. Right now, I have a modified LiteAudio DAC AM and it's been working nicely, but I'm sure can be improved upon.
What do you notice most about the tube DAC and the Ohms? I always thought Ohms wouldn't need tubes, because I thought of tube gear as taming many of today's overly bright speakers... which the Ohms are not!
Note that the large Ohm 5's in my system are much harder to drive properly as I described above than the much smaller 100s. Micros should be easier still.
I likely will someday go to a higher power amp that also doubles into 4 and 2 ohms for the larger Ohm 5's, most likely a 250w/ch or 500 w/ch Class D amp like a Bel Canto, Rowland or something similar.
The A3CR has been an over achiever with the 5's so far though. I was not sure the A3CR would be powerful enough for the 5's when I got it but it sounds great and goes pretty loud and clear, so I've held off for now on something more powerful.
The A3CR leaves nothing to want with 100s.
I also recently introduced a tube DAC into my system and this has been a revelation with the Ohms. If I upgrade my pre-amp, would strongly consider a tube pre-amp there.
It mostly doubles power into 4 and 2 ohms which helps deliver a balanced sound top to bottom with the Ohms at low to moderate volume.
It replaced a 360w/ch Carver m4.0t which did not at all nearly double into 4 and 2 ohms and produced a less balanced sound with less authority in the bass at low to moderate volumes. It went plenty loud though and sounded balanced at higher volumes but the low end was not as complete at lower volumes.
Re: your question about imaging. I'm not sure... I'm still getting used to the presentation and I'm still not certain that I have them placed optimally... I wish I had someone to help me with this!
My room is basically a 15 x 12 foot rectangle with an 8 foot ceiling. The floors are hardwood, but there are "puffy" shades on all the windows, and there a large day bed with soft linens and pillows in the listening position on the wall opposite the speakers.
The one oddity of the room is that there's a rectangular "appendage" to the left of the left speaker. The result is that the right speaker is three feet from the side wall to the right, but the left speaker is probably five feet from the left wall, which is in the little "side pocket" of the room.
Imaging, in terms of stage depth, is wonderful. Some recordings so far definitely "obliterate the back wall." I heard percussion instruments on Buena Vista Social Club today that sounded many feet back behind the rear wall. And on the second track, you definitely heard a group of "embodied" singers singing the harmonies of the chorus.
So I guess that imaging is quite solid... but I'm still not convinced that I've got the placement quite optimized.
How much power are you all using with your Ohms? I was thinking of looking for ~ 200 Watts for some headroom for my 100s but I'm not sure what brands or pieces to look at. Of course I'm open to less power but the idea was tempting :). If I could get it in a relatively small package or at least in one unit (like an integrated) that would be great.... Any ideas on what I should look for?
Rebbi, I'm really glad that the Ohms are working out for you so far! Bass - for a quasi-full range driver, all Ohms go deep, but not at the expense of definition, or naturalness. John at Ohm says that people think subs are built into his speakers...
The depth and presence isn't only available on great recordings! When I was in the demo period with mine, I played some live recordings of my band, recorded very simply, with one mic. I found firstly, the Ohms didn't color the sound frequency-wise, but also, you got a real sense of the venue too! Pretty cool...
Any trace of too much "sound bouncing off the walls" and adversely affecting imaging?
I know imaging accuracy was one of the areas that you had concerns about with the Ohms early on in your search.
This is one of the areas that the newer series 3 drivers really shine in comparison with the older Ohm Walsh CLS designs from the 80's that many are most often familiar with.
I really think your Unico hybrid amp is practically a perfect match to bring out the best in the Ohms, so I think you will be very well set.
The Ohms are one of the few low cost speaks I know that are capable of transcending their class in regards to performance due to the unique and innovative design.
The large surface area applied with the Walsh style drivers compared to traditional drivers of comparable size, along with the high phase coherency and wide dispersion pattern nature, are the main reasons these are almost in a class of their own for the size and asking price IMHO.
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