I'd love to hear the impressions of people who've actually spent some time with these speakers to share their sense of their plusses and minuses. Mapman here on Audiogon is a big fan, and has shared lots on them, but I'm wondering who else might be familiar with them.
I said "There are 2 things going on here", meaning the subs and Ohms.
Actually there are 3 things going on here. Great performance from the subs, great performance from the Ohms, and great integration of the two - a function of both of the above and the Velodyne SMS-1.
that's funny- you answered every question I didn't ask. Even down to the Sunfires and the Maggies- which are the other speakers I'm considering.
I think the bass is the most important aspect I'm concerned about. I really want a full-range speaker w/o a sub, but the flexibility to add one down the line if I have a larger room.
I've had my 100s w/Velodyne SPLR 8 subs for a little over a month now. Of the 3 speakers I tried with these subs (actually 4, including a brief "what the heck-give it a shot" attempt with my Verity Parsifal Monitors), the Ohms have settled in as the clear favorite over Maggie MMGs and Carver Cinema ribbon monitors.
As a stand alone, the Ohms offer a very neutral tonal balance with unusual bass extention. In this respect (60ish hz on up), they can IMHO compete with anything out there at any price - just dead neutral! The deep bass, low 30s hz in my room actually feels a bit elevated and a subwoofer wouldn't seem necessary. They also provide a wide stage with images well behind the plane of the speakers. Additionally, images seem to have real "body" which is a rare and wonderful characteristic to find in any speaker system.
To my ear, the Ohm is less dynamic in reproducing big swings than my Verity or Merlin speakers, but this is the only significant shortcoming for me. The Verity is also more transparent to the source (and the Merlin more transparent than the Verity), but this isn't real high on my current list of priorities. Also, the recessed soundstage, while absolutely convincing, doesn't present front to rear depth like the Verity or Merlin - another nit to some, more important to others.
The addition of the subs makes the speaker more dynamic. It still doesn't quite match the other 2 I mentioned, but the gap is closed significantly. The Ohm is an incredibly easy mate for subs. I had a near perfect transition in 15 minutes. (By contrast, 8 hours with the Maggies got me a very good result, but not as seamless a match as I quickly got with the Ohms). The irony here is that the Ohm/Velo crossed at 80hz feels better integrated than the stand alone Ohm - which is essentially a full range single driver system with a supertweeter.
I'd also add that, in black, the speaker can fairly be describes as "unattractive". OTOH, it's small.
There are 2 things going on here. Great performance from well integrated subs and great performance from the Ohm 100s. As a stand alone, the Ohm is a viable alternative to my usual recommended extended bandwidth speakers at $2kish - Vandy 2s, Em-Tech LFTs, and possibly Maggie 1.x QRs. In combo with the subs of your choice, it's a lot more than that.
Note: It has since come to my attention that the SVS 16" cylinrical subs will handily outperform the Velo SPLRs (much lower distortion at high SPLs) and are $150 less per pair. These are much larger cabinets, however. Ohm also makes a matching sub with an even larger footprint and that might merit consideration, as well.
The reason I include this note is that the performance I'm getting from 25hz to the 15ish khz that is the upper limit of my hearing is pretty damn amazing. I have found that I tend to listen a little louder with this set-up which helps restore a sense of dramatic dynamics. Other than that, it's really hard to find much meaningful criticism of this system. At the price point, it's truly amazing. Depending on personal priorities and listening habits (i.e. preferred spls), it wouldn't surprise me if some folks liked this set-up as much as any system at any price.
I'm not saying it's perfect - only that in the respects that are most important to me, it's terrific. I've never heard seamless, neutral performance with this type of bass extention in my room before, despite owning 2 other systems that cost several times the price. Obviously, I can't definitively rule out all other speaker system designs, but I wonder whether any speaker without a powered sub can provide this kind of performance in the deep bass.
Further, it's entirely possible that a wiser choice of subs might yield even further improvement (although that might only be apparent at spls I won't ever approach).
If ultimate transparency, macro-dynamics at modest spls, and front to back imaging are your priorities, you might well do better with a different speaker system. If you can nudge the volume up a bit, don't obsess about the "is this cd or sacd I'm listening to?" question, and don't miss the forward imaging provided by some other systems - the Ohm/Sub combo may well be unbeatable.
A lot of sonic magic in particular with acoustic music happens with phono in my setup as well.
I have a new Audio Research sp 16 tube pre-amp with phono stage coming in a week or so. That should shake things up for teh better for me I'm hoping as well.
A device with a name like "Bottlehead Seduction" has to sound great!
Seriously, glad your experiencing some magic moments!
We had a bunch of people over yesterday and I had to push the big Ohm 5's only 6 inches or so from the rear wall and have been listening to them there.
I'm really liking what I'm hearing even so close to the rear wall. There seems to be a swag of extra authority and meat to the bones with the rear wall re-enforcing the rendering. Imaging accuracy and depth of sound stage is still quite good as well.
I was playing an old vinyl recording of Bach music performed by E. Power Biggs on pipe organ on Columbia Masterworks label earlier and it was quite an involving experience. I'm not sure one could pull this configuration off as well from what I've read with other more true omnis.
I finally got to play some vinyl with the Ohm's, the refurbed SOTA Sapphire and my newly built Bottlehead Seduction phono stage. I threw Dire Straights' "Brothers In Arms" on the TT and was mesmerized.
The guitars on "So Far Away" absolutely filled my listening room. "Walk Of Life" had amazing stage depth.... the hi-hat on the opening bars sounded several feet in back of of the rear wall of the room. Cool! More to come...
I think while the imaging is excellent on the ohm speakers, you will never get the same precision you'll find in a traditional dynamic speaker. Likewise, while you can find great imaging in a dynamic speaker, you'll never find the same openness and wide sweet spot the Ohms give you in a traditional speaker. Every design has trade-offs and as you've said the room is key. Like you also said it would be great to have more than one speaker to listen to! I plan on adding another setup with a traditional speaker but I don't see myself getting rid of the Ohms to do this. Enjoy the RS6's! I've heard good things about them :)
Well, I got in the new phono preamp (Bottlehead Seduction) assembled and debugged and it works! Haven't had any chance for critical listening, but this will certainly open up a world of vinyl-based music for me to explore with the Ohm's! more to come...
I've had a great time reading this thread. I've listened to the MW talls in Ohm's Brooklyn factory and I have owned the Walsh super-2-S3; its the new Ohm walsh 100 driver in an old Walsh-2 pyramidal cabinet. I too enjoyed the bass, coherency, and soundstage...but I had problems with precise imaging. I've also considered the Totem line and debated getting the Hawks but was always intrigued by the Arro.
I'm NOT writing the hijack the thread, but I'd like to throw in my 2 cents regarding the most inexpensive but best performing of all the speakers mentioned here; the Monitor Audio RS6. I got a new pair for $750 and I'm stunned at their performance. They best the Walsh in my space and to my taste.
Now, if I could only get the Micro walsh, Totem arro, and MA RS6 in the same room!
Well, I thought it was past due for me to post another set of impressions. I have been playing both the Totems and the Micro Walsh Talls as much as possible. I've been alternating the two speakers, pretty much one week on and one week off. Here are some impressions...
Both speakers are quite impressive in their own way. The Totems have tight, ample base, particularly for their diminutive size... there is some real magic going on there, for sure. :-) Also, with the right source material, the Totems are capable of throwing quite a large, holographic soundstage.
The Totems also have a quality that I'm not sure how to express, let alone evaluate. At this stage of their break in, they seem to express a very detailed, "transparent" quality. What is unclear to me is whether this is really neutral or a rather bright/forward tilt. Ultimately, I think that the way you feel about the Arro will be more a matter of personal taste than anything else.
Although I definitely see the great strengths of the Totems, I am still, at this stage of the game, somewhat more drawn to the Micro Walsh Talls. For one thing,they are capable of generating some truly profound bass notes... beyond "bass notes," it would be more accurate to say "bass energy." When the source material calls for thunder, these things can really thunder! I can understand why someone commented that John, the owner of Ohm, says that one some people hear them, they think there must be a subwoofer hidden somewhere. :-)
Another thing that the Micro Walsh Talls have going for them is something that, as trite a word as this is, I would call "coherency." The music hangs together in a seamless fashion that is quite striking. I really don't know how else to describe it.
Finally, the Micro Walsh Talls have the ability, with the right material, to not only throw a wide and deep soundstage, but to really reach out TOWARD YOU and fill the room with music. It's very involving, and sometimes, almost spooky.
Right now, I would say that Totems do have a bit of an edge, all things considered, in that "transparency" department, but I suspect that the Micro Walsh Talls still have some opening up to do, and that the Totems still have some settling down to do.
Great, Marty. I can't wait to hear your impressions. I am still periodically swapping out my Totem Arro's with my Ohm MWT's. I'll update with some impressions.
Also, my Sapphire FINALLY arrived from being refurbished from SOTA, and my Bottlehead Seduction phono stage is almost completely assembled, so I'll have my vinyl to play with real soon now, too! :-D
Any updates? I am very interested in the Ohm's, and have my eyes set on the 100-S3's. I've noticed that some people rave about them, and then ultimately choose something else.
Rebbi - You've been pulling out lots of great recordings - it is a great feeling when you get the most out of them. Since these conversations on the Ohms began, I've been listening to my speakers with a more critical ear again, also pulling out older recordings. I must say that these speakers have saved me from having to spend money every year in search for something better. I usually grow tired of something after a very short time, but after 4 years, these MT's keep delivering the goods.
Its funny that I listened to a good mastering of "Gaucho" on CD on a pair of Quad electrostats at a local dealer when I was auditioning speakers prior to getting the newer Ohms and it was one of those 10/10 golden listening experiences where I said "this sounds perfect...it can't get any better than this".
Unfortunately, I only have an old home made cassette recording of Gaucho at home, so I have not been able to try to reproduce the same results there.
The $11,000 Quads were my reference listening experience though at the time when I decided to go with the newer Ohms for a chance to match the experience at less than half the cost.
I had an amazing experience with the Ohm's this morning. Had a few minutes to listen to some music and threw Steely Dan's "Gaucho" (a favorite) into the CD player. I remember when this album first came out on vinyl in 1980 and I've listened to it countless times since then.
Trite as this sounds, it was a revelation on the Ohm's... I heard detail and "air" and smoothness that I've never experienced before. Vocals floated in the air and Donald Fagen sounded amazing. It's hard to describe but it was just thrilling.
Just letting everybody know that I haven't disappeared. I went back to the Ohm's from the Arro's last week, and I've been tweaking their positioning for best sound. I'll post another progress report soon.
By the way, can any of you suggest some good sounding orchestral CD's to throw at the Ohm's? Some stuff that's easy to get your hands on?
You should talk to John, but I'd guess he's going to suggest 100s. If you're more than 15' from the plane of the speakers, the Talls are not recommended.
What size room would be OK for the Talls? My room is 15x24 with a vaulted ceiling, would that be OK? I have not heard Ohm Walsh speakers, but the information here has me wanting to. I am looking for a warm, smooth, listen- all-day type of speaker that sounds good in a variety of sitting positions. Might have to try them.
"John at Ohm told me that both the 100s and the Micro Talls work best at 2' from the front wall - the former for far field listening at greater SPLs, and the latter for nearfield at more modest levels"
Makes sense.
Smaller drivers will be more challenged to produce higher SPLs at a distance, which is why the larger models are designed for larger rooms.
I've had both my 100's and my Walsh 5s in my main but small 12'X 12' listening room in more of a near-field scenario. The larger drivers added little or no value there. The smaller drivers actually sounded better in that they fit the room better and had more room to "breathe".
The level adjustments on the Walsh 5's specifically were useful, but one might accomplish similar adjustments just as effectively with a good control pre-amp.
In my largest room, the 100s hold their own very well but the 5's deliver a performance of larger scale and impact to better fill the larger room.
I started with mine about 3 feet from the rear wall and they didn't sound that great: the soundstage was attenuated and the bass was indistinct. I gradually inched them backward toward the rear wall, and at about 18" out, everything snapped into place. The room filled with music (in that distinctive "Ohm way"), the imaging came into focus and the bass response popped. I know that the CLS driver is designed so as to damp the sound that would normally come from the rear of the driver toward the wall, making near-wall placement much more feasible, but you still have to mess with them. But when they're placed properly, as Mapman says, "Bingo!", you know it. :-)
John at Ohm told me that both the 100s and the Micro Talls work best at 2' from the front wall - the former for far field listening at greater SPLs, and the latter for nearfield at more modest levels.
ohms just get better with time for sure. dynamic impact, detail, etc. the longer you live with them, the more you'll appreciate their ease with pretty much any style and size of music.
Just ordered a pair of 100s as recommended by John. They should arrive in 2-3 weeks and will go into rotation with my Parsifal Encores and Merlin VSMs (and ocassionally Zingali Overture 3s). I've heard the MBLs a bunch of times and loved the "staging", but couldn't abide the tonal balance. I'm really eager to sit down with these speakers and see how they compare with the horns, equalized dynamics, and modular systems I use now.
Shy of adding planars (my preferred choice, Soundlab, is too big), non-'Stat single driver systems (maybe one day), or DSP room corrected systems (just a matter of time), I guess I'm getting close to covering all loudspeaker design bases. I'll report back when the Ohms get here. Thanks for the help, everyone.
Biz07, Thanks for the comments. I think that what I'm going to do is a alternate between the Ohm's and Arro's, maybe a week on, a week off. Of course, the unreliability of sonic memory being as it is, it'll be an interesting experience.
Smholl,
Interesting suggestion with the claws... I think I've seen them cheap on eBay.
Rebbi - You may want to try the Totem Claws instead of spikes for your Arros. Your speakers would then sit on 3 large ballbearings. A friend of mine used these on his Arros sitting on hardwood floor and made a significant improvement. Tightened up the bass and soundstage widened.
I think what has been said in this thread earlier about the Ohm's not having a typical "Hi-Fi" sound is very true. When I was looking at speakers I auditioned the Arros and thought they were a very nice speaker. To me they seemed a bit bright. Loudness and brightness can often be linked to "detailed" or "better". Each speaker will definitely have a different sound and only you can determine which is better for your needs. The one thing that always impresses me about Ohm's is how close they come to making vocals sound like the real thing. But one thing that impressed me about the Arros was the "punch" they seemed to give on certain things like drums. Right now you are picking up on differences. Just as you did when you took the Arros out and placed the Ohms in your system. If you were to sit with the Arros for a few weeks and put the Ohm's back I think you'd post the same type of reaction on differences you hear :)
One thing you should do is play around and get the best placement for each speaker. Also, listen to a variety of music that you care about. I've never understood how some audiophiles can tailor what they listening to based on the system they have. Your system should be able to play the music you enjoy in a way you enjoy hearing it. Good luck and keep us posted on your thoughts!
Yes, it does apply similarly to most cone speakers without a doubt. Some drivers take longer than others to "break in" physically or equivalently "open up" sonically, that's all.
In the case of Ohms larger drivers take more time than smaller ones.
In general I think they "open up" further in terms of weight and impact and become more "natural sounding" and detailed in particular through the mid range covered by the Walsh style driver.
By the way, in your experience, hoe does the sound of the Ohm's change as they break in? John at Ohm told me they can take 60 to 100 hours to fully break in.
I was using the spikes before (attached to the plinth) but the spikes were sitting in these little metal "saucers" that I got from the Totem dealer to protect the hardwood floors in the listening room from being damaged by the spikes. Now the spike points are sitting directly on the floor.
Also, I played them with the window shades up rather than down (the listening room has windows on three of its walls). I always assumed that things would sound better with the window shades covering the windows and dampening the room, but maybe that's not so.
You certainly have nothing to lose by giving the comparison more time. The Arros are very good speakers, as are all Totems I've ever heard...they are supposed to sound as you now describe them. I'm guessing using the spikes now if you weren't before would make a big difference.
Have you done the sand filling thing yet? I would expect that to help as well.
Well, the Arro's didn't sell on eBay, and now I'm rather glad they didn't.
After several days of listening to the Ohm's exclusively, I set the Arro's back up for a comparison, and they sounded.... well, they sounded great: detailed, open, great bass, room filling sound, huge stage. Why?
Maybe it's because I had the spikes coupled directly to the floor rather than sitting in "saucers." Maybe it's because I had the window shades up rather than covering the windows. Whatever the reason, they sounded terrific. The Ohm's sounded a bit "muffled" in comparison.
So I'm going to do what Tvad and others have suggested and not be in such a rush to get rid of them. I'm going to take time, as long as I have both, to break in both the MWT's and the Arro's, A/B them and see which one comes out on top.
I'll continue to report back as I learn more. Stay tuned... :-)
...and, one of the most important facts, one can try the Ohms out in your own listening room risk free to hear what they bring to the table.
I think anybody looking to plunk down mega-bucks on a pair of speakers (many on this site) would be well served to try the right size Ohms first....think of the money you might save and use towards your next pair of interconnects!
When I say "flat," I don't mean without dimensionality. I mean that they don't produce the sense of fullness and "air" that the Ohm's do...
Honest to goodness, I don't want to get into a discussion about whether or not I've given the Arro's a chance. I do believe that this thread will be useful to someone who's interested in the Ohm's vs. the Totem's, not as a final conclusion, but to get a sense of how they differ.
As the very least, I think I can conclude that:
1) The Ohm's sound better to me out of the box than do the Arro's, in terms of imaging, "holograpy" and bass extension. 2) The Ohm's are easier to set up than the Arro's: because of the large sweet spot, they're quite forgiving of placement, and will actually tolerate and even appreciate being fairly close to the rear wall (mine are currently only 19" out). And, although this may seem trivial, it's nice not to have to mess with floor spikes when you move the speakers around... really nice. 3) The Arro's are prettier than the Ohm's, and their fit and finish is more refined, although the Ohm's are far from bad in either regard. 4) The Ohm's present a 6 ohm load, the Arro's a 4 ohm load, for what that's worth. 5) The Arro's are around $350 more than the Ohm's.
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