Tell us what your critical listener friends said?
+1 |
Amp news:
I'm giving serious consideration to trying a pair of Bel Canto ref1000 mkiis that are up for sale. The seller is confirming for me that these are in fact mkiis, which go for a hefty premium over original ref100s due to input stage and power supply enhancements.
On paper, the 100k unbalanced input impedance (200k balanced) of the ref1000 mkiis are an ideal match for tube pre-amps. FWIW the input impedance of my MF A3CR is 72K ohms, also very good. The ref1000s deliver 500w/ch into 8 ohm, doubling into 4.
I figure if I do this, I 'm going to try to go for broke.
We'll see... |
Bondman,
Tell us what your critical listener friends said? |
Good to hear it, Mapman.
Finsup, nothing I sent you is private info, so feel free to share.
I did indeed install some absorbing foam panels at a first reflection point. This has greatly evened out the sound from the L/R channels, which had been very different in my asymetrical room. I also placed foam pipe insulation along some sharp edges that drop down from my ceiling. Along with some careful dialing in of the speakers, I am hearing a significant improvement in the sound overall. The forwardness that had bothered me on piano passages is greatly reduced. More treatments will come, but I am too busy and too broke right now. Overall, I am pretty pleased.
A succession of audiophile buddies have passed through my listening room. Although there was some limited criticism (these are very critical listeners!), they all have been fairly impressed, and amazed at the value the 2000s represent.
Last night, I listened to disc 2 of Danny Elfman's Music For a Darkened Theater, #2. Fantastic dynamics, long sustained tails of musical notes, startling percussion that made me jump, and a huge soundstage. And that timbre, always that true-to-life timbre. Perhaps it could be a little better, but I was hard-pressed to put my finger on exactly how.
One more audiphile friend is stopping by tonight (and his system cost him easily $40K). Unless he thinks I can do better with a specific speaker for $3K or less, I expect to be keeping the 2000s (just 9 days remain in my trial period). |
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I've managed to get both pair of OHMs tuned into their respective rooms pretty well and to my satisfaction without having to add any special room treatments.
One thing I have to add is that the last thing I felt my system was coming up just a tad short on until recently was ability to deliver all the details of a larger scale orchestral or symphonic work totally coherently in comparison to some of the best systems I have heard in this regard from digital source. The final tweak that resolved this and has me swooning of late was switching to all DNM Reson ICs from source to pre-amp and pre-amp to amp. My conclusion is that the minimalist single solid conductor design of these ICs is darn near optimal for letting complex musical passages pass through coherently and totally in phase. I've been stunned by the results frankly. At all volumes now, even the most complex passages come through in a most coherent and involving manner.
Its made justifying switching to a bigger amp even more difficult for me to justify than before. Everything just sound so right now, regardless of content/complexity. I set my music server to jukebox mode and just never want to stop listening. Whatever the next cut that happens to come up is I can just tune in and listen contently wondering what I will hear next that likely I had never heard before. |
Just a note to say that I'm still amazed by how much the 100's like better amplification. The Manley Shrimp preamp / Bel Canto S300 combo sounds very sweet. I was listening to Donald Fagen's "Goodbye Look" the other day and wow... marimbas everywhere, and you can follow every harmony line in the vocals.
My room is quite lively, though -- hardwood floors, painted drywall and windows, and I wonder how some judiciously placed absorption might benefit things... at least a rug on the floor! |
Finsup,
I use the Velodyne SMS-1 to room correct a pair of Rythmik subwoofers. My Ohm 100s are crossed to the subs at 75hz by an analog NHT x-2. The "subwoofer out" signal from the x-2 goes to the digital Velo unit and on into the subs (no digital processing in the main signal path, FWIW). Two bassbusters handle the excess energy between about 80hz and 125 hz in my room. Side reflections are dispersed by a wall of irregularly shelved LPs on one side and a bay window on the other. The wall behind the speakers is 2/3 covered with absorbtive and dispersion materials.
This set-up produces really good results, both subjectively and measured.
Marty |
IMHO, the single best way to optimize the incredible soundstaging and imaging of the Ohm Walshs without sacrificing their remarkable dynamics and tonal accuracy is to acoustically treat the room to absorb all first reflections, particularly side walls and ceiling reflections. While it is true that the sound radiation pattern of the Ohm Walsh has been tailored to minimize room reflections while directing high dispersion sound into the interior of the room, the imaging and soundstaging become razor sharp and vivid when first reflections are completely eliminated by judicious use of room treatments. Basically, the Ohm Walshs sound best placed along the short wall of a rectangular room that is acoustically live but where the middle third of the room's long dimension is treated with absorptive covering on the side walls and ceiling to eliminate first reflections. This is how my room is configured and the sound is spectactular. |
We have not spent [too] much time discussing room treatments or room correction in this thread although there has been some very helpful information about set-up. Someone is using an equalizer (Mamboni or maybe it's Martykl). I need to get a better understanding about the Ohms. They seem so counter-intuitive to me in the way they interact with the room. For a long time, I took it as a given to minimize the room's interaction. It seems the Ohms approach embraces it all. I am very puzzled.
Bondmanp recently achieved some great results from his post. In fact, he recently emailed me with some very detailed and insightful comments. In fact, I'd post them here if I had his permission.
I plan read more about their design and will talk to John Strohbeen, but I don't want to waste his time asking a bunch of questions, so if anyone else has achieved great success with either treatments or correction such as TacT, Audyssey, MCAAC, or ARC (or not), I would certainly appreciate reading about your experiences. Thanks. |
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I second Rebbi getting the 1000th post! |
When we get to 999, we I think we should honor Rebbi with the 1000th post... :) |
What's the over/under for hitting 1000? |
Just making note of the fact that we are slowly but surely inching up toward 1000 posts in this thread. I think we need to throw some sort of virtual party online when that happens. Shame we can talk get together over somebody's house and listen to music -- that would be the best. |
Thanks for the RT suggestion, I'll definitely check it out! |
Zkz,
If you're a guitar lovin' kind of guy, you're in for a treat!
Pardon me all, I'm going a bit OT here.
You're starting down an amazing road. RT is a stunning - and I mean STUNNING - guitar player. Both acoustic and, IMHO, especially electric. He's also a terrific lyricist and...let's say, very effective (if not particularly beautiful)... singer.
The 3 disc set "Watching The Dark" is a great overview of his career and the 2 disc live set "Two Letter Words" is a fine intro to RT's live fireworks. The latter might only be available through the Merchandise button on Beesweb.com, RT's site.
Enjoy.
Marty |
Thanks for the suggestions, Michael. My piano problems are more or less solved. It seems there was a push in the mids that repositioning the speakers and the acoustic treatments have reduced dramatically.
Last night I listened to Mozart's Requiem by José van Dam, Herbert von Karajan, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, and Rudolf Scholz, a 1990 CD of a 1975 recording.
The female soloist was a little rough, with some glare that was limited to a narrow frequency range. I replayed the first part after listening all the way through and noticed a lot less glare than I remember from the first go around. Perhaps all the gear had warmed up a bit? Also, out of laziness, I neglected to throw a quilt over my 55" RPTV that sits between and behind the Ohms.
I am getting the feeling that I don't think I will be able to improve on the Ohm Walsh 2000s without dropping significantly more coin. Since spending more for the forseeable future is impossible, I am getting close to a decision to keep these. They are not perfect, but I think with better cables, the spiked bases I mentioned before, and a few more improvements to the room, they could be as close to perfect as possible for under about $10K. |
Hey Marty - I'm finally starting to get into Richard Thompson - he was on Elvis Costello's show a couple of weeks ago - he was amazing... |
...Wyred ST-1000 will soon be shipped. Will compare to the McCormack. Foster_9 -- not to derail this thread but how did your experimenting with the Burson buffer work out between your VTL 2.5 and McCormack? I presume you have taken it out of the chain with the Wyred ST-1000? --Michael |
Excellent Mamboni, will be looking forward to more comments/review when you can. Tim |
Sorry I didn't respond - I'm presently buried under unread Emails and work-related stuff.
The ST-1000 is driving the Walshs beautifully -effortlessly. The sound is very lively and dynamic, silky yet super-detailed and the noise floor is non-existent. I'm driving the amp with a Pioneer Elite SP99D Preamp-processor which has an utterly clean, quiet and neutral sound. I use it in stereo mode exclusively.
My main listening system:
Ohm Walsh 5000
Cables: solid core .9999 silver 18g
Wyred4Sound ST-1000
Pioneer Elite SP-99D Preamp-Processor
Cambridge Audio DACMagic
Pioneer Elite PD-59 transport |
Mamboni, I assume the ST-1000 amp must be doing yeoman's work with the 5000's as it did with your 5 S3's. How do you like it? I've had the ST-1000 amp since Friday. Been running it 24/7. Are you using a tube preamp? I'm using a VTL 2.5. I emailed you about the ST-1000 but never heard from you. |
They sound fantastic. I am presently listening to a live recording of Berlioz' "Les Troyens" and the vocalists are reproduced perfectly. These 5000's having explosive dynamics and an ultra-clean tranparent sound. I will be posting a detailed review in a few days once I complete conducting all of my requisite torture tests. So far, I'd say these are John Strohbeen's best effort to date - the improvements over the Walsh 5's are staggering, and the improvements over the most excellent Walsh 5 Series 3s are significant, if that were possible. Amazing loudspeakers - quite awesome - I am enjoying them immensely! |
Mamboni, how are the new 5000's coming along? I have been anxiously waiting on some comments about these. I know you have them and also Don Lindich of Sound Advice is also going to have a review/comment on them at some point.
Bond, glad things are sounding a bit better for your 2000's. Tim |
BTW, Bond, I don't listen to classical music all that much and even less opera. I know you are having some difficulties getting piano to sound right. While many acknowledge, arguable, that piano, is the hardest instrument to get right, in my view, if a speaker doesn't do voices well, then I don't think it is going to get much else right either.
Having said that, why don't you throw some flute, oboe, cello, and violin into the mix? Add to that mix, besides some male and female vocals, dance, and some country --both acoustic and amplified?
WRT to classical and opera, borrow or download 1812 Overture by Tchaikovsky and Wagner's Gotterdammerung. All that should really show what your Ohms are made of.
Good luck.
--Michael
PS. I am glad someone finally brought room acoustics to your attention. Not wanting to beat a dead horse deader, before changing out to many pieces of electronics and trying all sorts of other tweaks, including cables, etc, treat your room first. No matter what speaker you end up with, you'll be rewarded in the long run with a room that has some of its own problems taken care of. |
Zkz,
I had to laugh a bit when I saw your post. I'm a big fan of Blake/Froom and Los Lobos. However.....
I've always referred to "Colossal Head" as "Colassal Bore".
By far, my least favorite Lobos record and seeing it performed live at the Lobos typically crushing SPL was one of the more painful evenings I can ever recall.
Glad you enjoy it, but I'll file this one under "agree to disagree".
Marty
BTW, IIRC Mitchell Froom once toured with Richard Thompson supporting solo guitar with amazing accompaniment on keys. Many, many years back, but a much more pleasant concert memory. |
Please keep the piano recommendations coming. Bond, I don't own any Ohms, but nevertheless, consider obtaining Annie Fischer's Beethoven Piano Sonatas on Hungaroton. The complete set is a bit pricey but if you know which sonatas you like, you can select them indiviually. --Michael |
Great. Now I'm wanting to try tubes! Doubt I'll part with my solid state amp, though...
Glad you're enjoying them, Rebbi. And thanks for starting this thread, by the way. You had a bit to do with me buying my MWT's (all you other guys too- thanks!) |
"I'm at a loss to describe exactly what has improved in moving to the new amplification. The music seems more "alive," in general. Instrumental textures are more palpable, individual instruments have more "air" around them"
From this description, I suspect in your case, moving from tube hybrid integrated to separate tube pre and power amp, that it is mostly a result of moving to the juicier/more powerful amp. Of course the manley is a good piece also and I'm sure the two new pieces are getting on quite well together. |
Thanks for the nice feedback, folks! The system is sounding wonderful, although I'm at a loss to describe exactly what has improved in moving to the new amplification. The music seems more "alive," in general. Instrumental textures are more palpable, individual instruments have more "air" around them, and other things I can't quite articulate in words. But the system has definitely taken a huge leap with the new electronics, proving, I guess, that the Ohm's benefit from better associated gear.
It's also very satisfying that Audiogon has made all this possible. I saved a total of about $1400 on the preamp and amplifier over retail. The power amp was brand-new in an unopened box, at one half off retail -- the only thing I lost is the factory warranty. The preamp was, just as the buyer had claimed, "without a single mark on it," and it's a beautiful piece of equipment. That's another great thing about Audiogon: I have yet to have dealings with anybody here, either as a buyer or a seller, who wasn't a pleasure to deal with. It feels much safer buying here than in the wild and woolly world of eBay, for example. So, here's to AudiogoN, and to the bargains it makes possible. :-) |
"It sounds like the Manley/Canto combo is working for you. I think that rig will be hard to improve upon, without getting into crazy $$$!"
I'd tend to agree. Rebbe, I think you did quite well! |
Rebbi - Tchad Blake is GREAT!! He's done some amazing recordings with Mitchell Froom - An album that sounds great on my Ohms, is Colossal Head, by Los Lobos. An incredible album that Blake and Froom collaborated on...
It sounds like the Manley/Canto combo is working for you. I think that rig will be hard to improve upon, without getting into crazy $$$! |
Glad your Ohm 100's are doing the job for you Rebbi! Ohm's are just plain fun to listen to!
Do you miss your Unico at all? I never have had the pleasure of listening to one, but they sure do look nice. I am sure your Manley/Bel Canto is doing a nice job for you though. Enjoy the music! Tim |
Listening today to Paul Simon's album "Surprise" once again, with a big smile on my face. It's a partnership with electronica guru Brian Eno. The engineer is someone unfamiliar to me, a guy named Tchad Blake.
Anyway, it's a bass and texture showcase for the Ohm 100's. My favorite moment (one of them, anyway) is during the song "Once Upon A Time There Was An Ocean." About a minute into the song, a big, honking synth bass -- actually two sounds, a higher one, and a subterranean hip-hop kind of note -- comes charging in on the right. It's amazing on the Ohms... makes you want to get up and dance.
:-) |
I'm using a Parasound HCA-2205, 220 wpc and up to 60 Amps of current. I feel that it is totally overkill for the Micro Walshes, but it does drive them well.
Am thinking of changing to an integrated, or a tube pre-amp with a more reasonable amp when I move to VA.
I originally used an old Harmon Kardon AVR-20 at 40- watts that didn't have anough juice to make them sing, but they sounded ok. |
Joe,
I think 100w/ch is a good match to the Micro Talls particularly at that price point.
My Musical Fidelity A3CR amp is only 120w/ch and drives my Walsh 100S3s and even my larger Walsh 5S3 extremely well.
The MF amp cost me about $600 used off of Ebay a couple years back. |
Bondmanp,
Glad to hear it.
4 or more trained ears are always better than two! |
Mapman, I have the Micro walsh talls. my reciever is a yamaha RX-V465 that puts out 100 watts per ch. I know it's not the best reciever I could use, but to my old ears, it makes the ohms sound unbelievable. Like I said, I love these speakers so far, and don't want to blow them up. I plan to get a better amp and pre-amp in the future, but lack the funds to do so right now. I was forced to decide where I would put the most money on a limited budget, and I'm so glad I put more into the Ohms. If they sound this good with the Yamaha,I can only imagine what they would sound like with a good high current amp. I need more money...............sigh..... |
Joefish said:
" I got the Beatles 2009 remasters recently, and for better or worse, they show you what's there, warts and all. "
YEs, I have the monos and a few stereo remasters. Overall, they are the best digital versions I have heard and the OHMs reveal everything from the best to worst. Everything is on my music server, which makes it easy to a/b different versions of songs or compare any two recordings back to back as desired, so I think I have some good experience here.
Joe,
Which model OHMs do you have specifically and which Yamaha receiver?
100 watts will do a good job on most all OHMs, but lareger ones can take and benefit from more. Also, receivers are generally not great at delivering lots of current which all OHM Walshes love. I suspect 100 watts out of a good high current power amp will do much better.
And yes, it is possible that distortion is in certain piano recordings. Piano can have a large range of dynamics and transients compared to most instruments and recording this well is no easier than playing it back. The OHMs should not break a sweat playing back piano recordings if the recordings are done well and everything is clicking as it should. |
Big news!
My invitation to members of my local audio club has paid off big time. Last night, one of the more knowledgeable members of the club came by.
Perhaps it was sloth, perhaps a reluctance to buy into the importance of the room and setup, but there were a few things I should have done, but never did, that this fellow helped me with last night. We removed my old speakers from the sidewalls, installed some basic acoustic treatments, and carefully dialed-in and leveled the Ohms. The cumulative effect of all this was significant.
He identified a forwardness in the mids as a possible source of my issues with piano notes in the midrange. More toe-in and careful leveling reduced this issue to a large degree. Although I have yet to revisit the offending recordings, the CDs and LPs my new best friend brought with him last night sounded fantastic. His well-trained ears were able to detect a decent amount of depth, and good detail at the rear of the soundstage. These are things I have never been able to hear myself. (Is it possible that, as with some people's vision, I have poor depth perception in audio terms?)
There was occasionally a little sharpness on higher piano notes, in the lower treble range, but the distorted midrange notes were no longer in evidence.
In any case, my guest felt that by the time he was ready to leave, that the Ohms were sounding very good, and has encouraged other club members to stop by and hear them. Considering how much experience he has as a listener, I can't imagine a better compliment.
More club members have asked to come over, so I will keep you all posted. |
"I myself have some recordings that are unbearable on my MWT's, foremost being 'In the Court of the Crimson King" 80's CD pressing by King Crimson. Unlistenable since I got the Ohm's (I have not gotten the remaster yet). The speakers are just too damn revealing sometimes, I guess."
I have the remaster. I think I read somewhere that the remaster was the first time in the digital age that this monument recording has been done well. It sounds very good for the first time ever to me on any of my speakers, but best on the OHMs. Even the ambient section of "Moonchild", which had never drawn my attention before, sucks me way in despite the fact that so little (yet still so much) is going on. |
Joefish - A lot depends on your room. If your room is very large, you will be pushing them harder for the same apparent output level. If pushed too hard, the Yammi could clip, and that could damage the super-tweeter in the MWT (or any speaker). You might not even realize it is clipping until it's too late. However, if you're room is not too large for the MWTs, and you don't over do it on the volume level, you should be fine. |
I'm still enthralled with my micro talls. What Parasound63 says about Ohm speakers being too revealing is quite accurate. I got the Beatles 2009 remasters recently, and for better or worse, they show you what's there, warts and all. I'm still getting to know these speakers, and the more I listen, the more appealing, addicting, and utterly enjoyable they become. I have never been this happy with a pair of speakers before, and this is comming from a jaded 57 yr. old man who is not easily impressed and has listened to many speakers over the years.
I do have one question. How much power will these babies take? My Yamaha reciever goes from -80db to +16db I usually run the reciever anywhere from -10db to +7db depending on the loudness of the recording, and I don't want to blow my speakers up, but I'm not sure how much power they'll take, or how much power the reciever is putting out at these settings. I have never pushed the speakers into strain or distorsion as far as I can tell. My reciever is rated at 100wpc. Can anyone out there re-educate me on the basics so I can enjoy my speakers without melting them down? I've been out of the audiophile loop for quite a few years, and much has been forgotten. Any help will be greatly appreciated, Thanks |
Bond- just to be clear. Are you getting the distortion on ALL piano recordings within the mid-midrange? Anything similar with acoustic guitar? Cello? Viola?
My gut tells me it's source-related: distortion in the recording. Two recordings I recommend are:
1. "Van Cliburn in Moscow" RCA Red Seal,1972, ISBN# 1779-45653-2
2. "Rachmaninov Piano Concertos 2&3"- Vladimir Ashkenazy- 1963
Decca Legends series ISBN# 289-466-375-2
These are older recordings, presumably with one mic. I hear a bit of distortion in the audience and other background noise, but the piano seems pretty good. Obviously analog recordings, with the Rachmaninov being a 24 bit/96Hz transfer.
I myself have some recordings that are unbearable on my MWT's, foremost being 'In the Court of the Crimson King" 80's CD pressing by King Crimson. Unlistenable since I got the Ohm's (I have not gotten the remaster yet). The speakers are just too damn revealing sometimes, I guess. |
Thanks, all. Please keep the piano recommendations coming. Meanwhile, I will revisit some of the offending recordings to see if the issue is dissapating at all.
I resent my email to John Strohbeen. Still waiting for a reply. I assume he is still in catch-up mode after being closed for the holidays.
I have invited several members of the local audiophile club in to hear and critique the 2000s (only one or two at a time - my listening room has space for two seats only). Hopefully, these more experienced ears will help me figure things out.
Frazeur1: This last issue, the roughness in the mids on piano, is severe enough that it forces me into the critique mode; if I were listening for pleasure, I would turn it off or at least switch to a different CD. Very frustrating since I really like these speakers in every other respect. |
Bond, it would maybe be a good thing to contact John and see what his thoughts may be. My 2000 drivers in the OW2 cabinets eventually smoothed out pretty nicely. Unfortunately, I had to get the OW2's back to their owner, but I feel like I got a very good feel for them. I am hoping yours will smooth out as well.
I never really got the same midrange issue as you, and surely not anything I would call "distortion". I think there were times that I could overdrive them a bit in my room which would muddy things up a bit. But once I got past the slight mid-bass bloat, things settled in very nicely!
Bond, I have a Narada sampler that has I believe David Lantz/Christofore's Dream, good piano, it makes for a nice demo. Some folks don't care for the Narada stuff, but I like it.
My main reason for going to the 3000's is that they will mesh better with my room volume and I will not have a tendency to overdrive them. Not that I listen to music at ungodly levels, but there are those times when you just feel like you want some concert-hall levels!
Also, not trying to take sales away from John at all, but have you watched any film with the Walsh's set up, center in Phantom mode, in my setting I am very pleased with how things sound without a center channel, but rooms and placement will have a big influence on that. I am thinking about getting a pair of Microwalsh's at some point for my surrounds.
I hope you can get squared away with your 2000's Bond, I do think you will enjoy them a lot. Sometimes too, I think it is all too easy to get in the "critical listening mode" instead of just letting the music speak for itself. Especially when you are in the dem mode and making sure these are what you want to purchase. Enjoy! Tim |
Bondman,
Piano dynamics can be among the most challenging to reproduce accurately, so I think that is one good test for most any system.
Something is not right somewhere in the system, if you are hearing audible distortion as opposed to some tonal balance related issue. Its certainly possible the issue is in the speaks in which case there is something not right there.
The 1000 series drivers are still quite new. Its possible that there could still be kinks there compared to older models. Only John S. could probably say for sure. |
Fin,
Look at my system pic titles "thebigohms". I usually listen from the blue swivel chair, anywhere from about where it is in the pic or further back, usually at least 8' or more in front of the speaks or for casual listening sometimes from the couch along the left hand wall. |
Bondman,
No experience with the newer 1000 series drivers or their tonality. I would certainly not expect any audible distortion though. What does John Strohbeen say about it? |
