THe thing is, I have yet to hear the OHMs run out of gas at any volume one might listen to. The amp seems to practically always be the bottleneck first. Even my current 500w/ch CLass D amps cannot seem to phase my larger OHM 5s or even my smaller 100s when used with those practically.
I used my 180w/ch TAD 125 Hibachi monoblocks as a substitute in my main rig when one of my BCs was out for repair recently. They did very well particularly at low to moderate volumes, but could not deliver quite to the same level at the higher volumes.
I'm using the TADs now in my second system with my 100s only (also with a sub) and the sound is quite exceptional in my large family room/kitchen area, even if not quite up to par technically at very high levels with the BCs and 5s in comparison. |
As you know from my previous post, I switched my 5000's from being powered by a SUMO Polaris II (130 wpc) to a McCormack DNA-250 (250 wpc) and experienced a "fuller" bass. The midrange and highs seemed the same. So while the Ohms run fine on moderate power they do seem to light up more with muscular amps, though one needn't go overboard. Keep in mind that Ohms present 6 ohms, rather than the more typical 8 ohm load, so a given amp (customarily rated with an 8 ohm load) will put out more watts at the lower load. I myself am somewhat skeptical of high output tube amps, and think that a tube preamp coupled with a ss amp is more appropriate for a speaker like the Ohms, if one is looking for a "tube" sound. That's not to say that it can't be done with all tubes; it's just much easier. And tube rolling with a preamp is easily done because the power demands don't overwhelm the different tubes that one might use. My preamp uses 300B's (granted, overkill) and 6SN7's, with the option of rolling out the 300B's for 2A3's. But I suspect that the Ohms will sound good with just about any decent amp, even modestly priced integrated ss ones from one of the chain stores. |
I would really like to hear the OHMs on a SOTA high power tube amp but am probably not brave (or rich) enough to own such a rig myself and I really can't fault the sound with a good SS amp behind it.
Modern high quality Class D amps and OHMs practically are a match made in heaven I would say. Definitely a case of innovations in technology helping to push the edge further than practical prior. |
I only have one question. I'm ready to purchase the new OHM 3000. Has OHM ever offered these $4,000 speakers at a discount on the day after Thanksgiving? If not, I will go ahead and start the process of purchasing these speakers now. |
I remember he (John Strohbeen) did so back in 2010, but I don't know about last year. However, he closes for a little while from the end of June through mid-July and he has been known to offer a summer sale around that time. |
Thanks Finsup, I'll wait another month before pulling the trigger on the OHM 3000. |
Yes, I picked up my 5s this time of year a few years back before John closes up shop for July when he ran a sale on certain refurbished models. Definitely worth checking into. |
I would just call up John- he's very friendly and approachable. Just flat out ask him if they go on sale or if he can do something special for you like free shipping. Also, if you are willing, he can sometimes give you a deal on speakers that have been rebuilt from old cabinets. Or maybe someone returned a pair of 3000's so he could give a used price- one never knows unless you ask. |
Although I have written that John has offered summer sales, that doesn't mean he will continue to do so. Carja makes a good point: Just call John. |
Wow! Thank guys. I talked to John and he told me there was not going to be a specific OHM 3000 sale this summer. But he pause for a second and was kind enough to offer a 20% discount on a new pair of OHM 3000. Of course I jumped on the deal. Thanks everyone. |
Forgot to mention, John did first offer a discount on a 3000 driver with the older cabinet but I did not want it. That is when he paused and offered a discount on the newer OHM 3000. |
I first encounter the OHM Walsh 4 as a penniless audiophile back in 1985 at a local dealer. That one experience has stay with me all these years. I want to thank John for keeping the faith in these unique speakers and I want to express my warmhearted recognition to the inventor Lincoln Walsh. At 56 years of age, these will probably be my last speakers. |
Congrats on the 3000's! I do enjoy mine very much so, and probably like many here, remember first listening to Ohm's back in the early/mid 80's and them kind of staying with you. I am glad John was able to work with you on these, I am sure you will enjoy them very much. What veneer did you get?
Once you get them, hang in there with the break-in period, that can be somewhat frustrating at times, but they will come around. I think in the end they are a speaker that will just do it for you, or they won't, not much of an in-between. The main thing is just have fun and enjoy them along with your music! Tim |
Moth my current OHMs sounded totally foreign to me when I first hooked them up despite having owned Walsh 2s for years. The thought that they sounded like crap at first listen probably crossed my mind. It's a combo of the speakers breaking in and your ears adapting to listening to music in a totally different way. Hang in there and tweak as needed! You will either make the transition or not. I suppose that's one reason why John offers such a favorably long audition period. |
Map, that is exactly what I thought when I first got my 3000's cahnged over from the original drivers. I thought "My goodness, what have I just done?" But knowing how good the 2000's ended up being during that trial period, I just kept on with them. Have had a few difficulties along the way, but all is paying off. It is nice to have that very generous trial period for sure. Tim |
I acquired my 100S3's second hand first as a test. THese may have been somewhat broken in by the prior owner but nit certain. Totally foreign sound at first listen. Then I gradually got tuned in and tweaked. Based on that, then eventually I bought the 5S3s from OHM as my new cornerstone speakers. My ears were adapted more somewhat but it still took several months for these to really break-in I would say. Then I changed pre-amp, amp and tweaked ICs and setup as needed. It's been dialed in now for well over a year, going on two, and I am hesitant to change or touch a thing! Sometimes, the smallest thing can lead to a whole new sequence of tweaks/changes. I hate that when things are finally sounding just the way you want them too! |
Anyone who does not believe in break in should audition ohms for a month. Mine are a few weeks old and they have taken on different sound aspects. Right now they seem to be going through a "dumb" period as a bit congested ......but they have certainly floated my boat thus far |
I actually think that the vast majority of "breaking in" is just getting used to the incredible sound stage that these speakers offer. It truly is a foreign sound when one first hears it. A good analogy would be headphones. One can put on a pair of topnotch headphones, and listen to music that has a flat frequency response curve from 20-20,000. But some people don't like them and prefer speakers. Sam thing with OHMs, but as in headphones one needs to put in 100 hours of listening to see if this does it for you and for many it will- just look at all the earbuds that one sees.
Having said all the above, I admit to fiddling around with speaker placement, switch positions (I have 5000's), etc until I was happy. Now I'm at the point of, "if it ain't broke, don't f*** with it". As a confession, I switched out the WWII 6SN7's for the Black Treasures from Shuguang- the RCA's were too microphonic, but they did give voices a dreamy quality, like being transported back to the 40's. |
My upgrade kit came this week, so -- after getting physical with a couple of glued in crossover boards -- I now have Walsh 2.2000s. My question is, can someone who owns something from the 1000s line give me a ballpark figure for how many hours in took to fully break these guys in? |
Batch,
I am familiar with the Walsh 2 upgrade process but never been through it. Doesn't sound too bad again if one is comfortable with ripping out teh old boards in the base and working a glue gun. I did the glue gun bit once on my old Walsh 2s to reattach some internal braces that had become detached over the years. Not too bad!
Don't have 1000 series but I suspect full breakin could take up to weeks/months depending on usage levels and volumes applied.
I have always wondered about adding/subtracting/rearranging damping material used internally on the Walshes as an easy tweak to try if needed, but have never spent time experimenting extensively. Might be worth it for some that might feel their OHMs are over or under damped in their application. |
I've recently heard a speaker that 'out-walshes' the Ohm Walsh. I've owned the Walsh 2s, 4s, and 5's (older and newer series). I have a speaker fanatic friend who picked up a pair of Artistic Audio Mobius speakers which use two spherical dome midrange drivers in a bi-polar configuration with two tweeters suspended in front of them. There are bass woofers at the base of the speakers to make them more full range. They are very cool (think modern art) looking and sound incredible! Only thing is they take a lot of power (in my opinion) to sound their best. At least a good quality 100wpc amp or something with a high current design (parasound would be a good choice that comes to mind). Artistic Audio went out of business I hear and the story is they have like 1000 pair of speakers in a wharehouse in Kansan City, waiting for the bankruptcy to clear before someone can sell them off or dispose of them. They went for about $2500 retail. I like them better than the Ohms. Better build and better sounding. Just my two cents.... |
Interesting. The Mobius got one of the only negative reviews I've ever seen on 6Moons. What kind of equipment does your friend have them hooked up to? |
Tex,
Yes, those are an interesting approach to a point source/wide dispersion/omni type design!
I would only point out that they do not appear to make any use of Walsh driver technology though, so they can't "out-Walsh" anything in that sense, for what its worth.
AN interesting design and maybe a very good value as well though. I would like to hear those. |
He has them powered by one of the new Peachtree 220 ICE amps (220 wpc into 8 ohms, double into 4). I read the review on 6 moons as well and it is apparent he has preferences for one type of speaker but not this type of omni-speaker. I know some people that hate forward sounding speakers that push sound at you instead of letting it emanate from the speakers as most omni's and bipoles do. To each their own I guess but I know what I heard. On the other hand there is a favorable review of these speakers in Secrets of Home Theater/High Fidelity site. It's mostly a moot point anywhere as there aren't many of these out there and they are no longer made. I have no intrinsic interest in them as I prefer my Emerald Physics and am happy with them. Just saying if you ever get chance to check them out and you like the omni-type sound they are definitely worth a listen. |
Batch, I had one of the first 2000 series upgrades on a pair of older OW2 cabinets. I felt like the break in took most all of the trial time, and then even a bit after that it seemed they smoothed out over the course of several weeks thereafter. John will work with you though as long as you keep him in the loop from the get-go. If you have any issues or doubts about things, even early on, don't hesitate to bounce things off of him. Of course a lot of this will depend on how much play time you actually give them over the course of the trial period, the more the better. Enjoy! Tim |
Thanks for the responses. I've already called John w/ questions & he's been very helpful. I've got them in a spare room hooked up to a radio, so I can run them 10 hours or so per day. Unfortunately, even though its a spare room, I can't really crank them up too much.
Batch |
"Cranking" was a big part of the break-in process for me with my 5S3s. Any break in possible is a good thing though I would say. |
How would I know when I've turned these things up too loud? This is just theoretical, but I want to know I'm not gonna damage anything. Running them with a Peachtree Nova, but I don't know what the dial levels mean as far as wattage output. |
Rbf,
In general, listen for any audible signs of distortion or breakup usually due to amp clipping. When an amp clips, distortion will start to become audible during louder musical peaks and upping the volume further results in more distortion than increased volume as expected. I have never been able to overdrive any OHMs I have owned and get them to breakup otherwise. I suppose it is possible with a larger amp on a smaller OHM like a MWT. I doubt a Peachtree Nove would overdrive any OHM Walsh, so clipping as I described above is the thing most likely to watch out for. |
Rbf,
For rock/prog/metal music at louder, real life type volumes, clipping is quite common with many amp/speaker combos. It comes into play gradually as volume goes up. If it is noticeable with the Nova/OHM combo, there are two possible solutions. A more powerful/beefier amp for use with the OHMS or more efficient speakers for use with the Nova. My recommendation for the best end results for that kind of music assuming one likes what the OHMs can do in general at lower to moderate volume before clipping might become a factor would be to get the biggest, beefiest amp possible for the OHMs. Class D amps can do this effectively in a smaller lighter package than other types if needed. That is how I ended up where I am today to max out performance of my big OHM 5s. Smaller OHMS in smaller rooms will be less demanding of the amplification. |
So if it was between Kimber 4VS cables and Signal Cable Ultra cables, any reason I should go with one or the other for my Microtalls? I found an 8ft. pair of the Signals used for $55...seems like it'd be worth it, unless the Kimber's are considered a better match for the Walshes. |
Batch - What Frazuer said, +1. I ran them plenty, and at all levels, during the trial period, and the changes were significant and obvious. FWIW, I don't think break-in, especially for loudspeakers, has much to do with "getting used to" the new speakers. Ask John Strohbeen or any speaker designer: The various materials in a loudspeaker, from the glues to the cone material to the caps in the crossovers all get excersized during the break in process, and as they flex, they eventually settle in to sounding as they were designed to. But fresh out of the box, the materials will not produce the intended sound.
Rbf1138: The Signal Cables would be a great buy, and at that price, easy to resell if you want to upgrade. I'd suggest picking them up, then, over time, audition cables, ones that can be returned, verses the Signal Cables, and see if you hear an improvement worth paying up for. |
Bondman,
Thanks for the info. And you'll be happy to know I ended up taking your & Map's advise and dumped the vintage Kenwood for powering the 2.2000s and replaced it with a Valve Audio Predator -- which made a huge difference. |
Mapman, Bondman and others, I have a serious question. I have a turntable, many CDs, some excellent SACDs, a top notch FM receiver, and thousands of mp3's, mostly ripped at 196 kps or higher. Yet, 80 % of my listening is done on vinyl. Is it that I'm just an old guy who cut his teeth on vinyl and I'm into nostalgia or is there something unique about my setup with vinyl? Keep in mind that I took a nearly 30 year hiatus from vinyl until I set up my new system. |
Finally getting my rig setup. Awaiting Kimber 4VS cables and using cheap wire right now.
While music from the turntable and computer sound great, I'm having a hard time with that "ghost center channel" for television, movies, etc. It just sounds like its coming from two speakers on either side of the tv.
I'll upload a picture of my setup this afternoon for more precise help here. |
Batch,
Glad things are working out.
Carja,
HArd to say. I'm an older guy too (52) and leaned towards vinyl as well until I went with a NEtwork Music Player (first Roku SOundbridge, now Squeezebox TOuch) + music server. Now I spend most of my time with the Touch/music server.
I still have a lot of records that I would love to listen to if I had the time to muck with records but I have a huge backlog of things to listen to on my music server alone that will take me a long time to get through, so I only on occasion spin the vinyl when I get the urge.
I do tend to lean towards the vinyl for older vintage recordings and classical music in general but I also listen to a lot of newer stuff these days so that makes a difference. |
Is anyone using their MWT's (or other ohm) in a 5.1 set up?
Im liking them so much im going to order a center from Ohm. If so, what are you using as surrounds?
I ask because my family room came pre-wired with in ceiling back surrounds and OHM does not make in wall stuff. Wifey has nixed the OHM on wall so i was curious about timbre matching with the previously installed surrounds. |
Kbuzz, are you currently using the two Ohms as your left and right channels? I ask because as I just mentioned above, I have a 2-channel setup at the moment with the Ohms, but for tv/movies I'm getting a really jarring and unpleasant experience. The dialogue does not seem to come from the TV and I'm very aware of the sound coming from either side of the TV. |
RBF- yes i am. And i agree that it is not the ideal setup-but i think this about most stereo for tv listening. The dialog spread you are hearing, is imho sort of the down side to what is great about the ohms for music-namely the imaging and all over room sound.
This is why i want to buy a center channel from ohm to lock down that part of the viewing experience. |
Rb,
I use my 100S3s in my two channel a/v system for A/V.
Speaker position is key to get a clean center channel image with 2 OHM mains in lieu of an actual center channel speaker. The speakers may need to be closer together and/or further out from the wall. Other items/obstacles nearby may have an effect on the reflected sound including a the tv in between. It all depends. More description/pictures of your setup would make it easier to help troubleshoot. |
Thanks map, pictures to come. The main issue will be that the TV is on an Ikea Expedit bookcase like this one: http://fatelessmusic.com/newsite/wp-content/themes/ikea-expedit-bookcase-7218.jpg
so they can only be so close.
I guess I could move the speakers in front of that, although I don't think my girlfriend will be pleased and it may look weird. Alternatively, I could pull the bookcase away from the wall and put the speakers behind it, although that will probably cause it's own sound issues. |
rbf, my setup as pictured Here had similar issues when first set up as in the picture. Moving the OHMs forward 6-12 inches and moving the TV back to the rear of the table so that there was more distance to both TV and walls behind resolved the issue for me. |
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/521/photo1ae.jpg/
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http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/52/photo3yn.jpg/
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I moved them forward and in front of the shelf a bit and it got better, but it still needs some positioning work. |
I think the Ohm's can do a pretty good job of the phantom center, but as Map and other's have commented, speaker positioning is very much the key, and typically is still somewhat of a compromise.
With my setup using a 55" screen sitting on a stand that is just the width of the screen(kind of a lowboy stand), my walsh 3/3000's are about 9 feet apart and my listening position(about 6.5-7' from plane of speakers) is pretty much centered to lock the dialog/center in. But things still get a bit off once you move out of a small window. While the Ohm's manage a great soundstage for 2-channel music, I do think multi-channel is a different thing and can be tough to do with only 2 speakers.
The other thing is that each Ohm speaker can needs to basically "see" the other one in order for things to work well to begin with, so if any one of the speakers is blocked from the other one by the screen, cabinets etc., this will tend to throw the balance of things off, and you will not obviously get the staging right. So, clear paths between them is the way to go.
As a side note, I would recommend the Ohm Micro Walsh omni version for surround duties, very good in this mode. I even find them to be quite amazing for simple 2-channel L/R listening.
Enjoy your Ohm's guys! Tim |
Rbf-I just looked at your pics of your setup and I feel that the way you have your MWT's toed in is really going to mess up your staging big time, unless this is just them sitting there for fun. You should have them with the fronts of the speaker more straight on and they could use spreading apart by a bit more. If the image is still not quite the way you want it to be, try toeing them out versus in the way they are now. Slight adjustments at first until you get them locked in.
The way you have them toed currently is going to more or less send your image/treble right at the TV screen versus out toward you. The tweeters are at a diagonal/45 degrees so you need to somewhat sit intersecting that line. At any rate, they look nice, would like to see a better up close photo of yours. I like the black, are you satisfied with the fit and finish, and the grills look okay to you? Hope this helps some. Enjoy them! Tim |
RBF,
If you play a mono recording, and sit in front of the OHMs, where does the sound appear to come from?
I find the center of the OHM soundstage tends to be the center of the rear wall behind them which may not be the same as the center between the speakers where the TV is when the speaker location is skewed to the right or left of center. Yours appear to be skewed significantly left, so it would not surprise me if the center of teh soundstage as you would hear with a mono recording is skewed to the right of teh TV location between the speakers. The TV may need to be more in the middle of the rear wall for it to work.
Also, if you listen from to the left or right in front of the speakers, the soundstage and its center will likely shift to the right and left accordingly as opposed to sitting dead center. |
Thanks for the advice so far. Moving them a little farther apart and toeing out a bit made a drastic improvement. I don't think I've quite nailed it yet, but it's getting there! |
yes, toe out with more direct tweeter exposure should help make the soundstage more centrally focused. small adjustments there can have a major effect. |
Carja: My situation mirrors Mapman - we're even the same age! I love vinyl, own and still buy LPs, and spin them fairly often. But, the pleasure and ease of use from my Squeezebox Touch and server combo is fantastic. I only have about 20% of my CDs loaded onto the server, and even so, I usually reach for the Squeezebox remote when I want to listen to music. But I also have a DAC that I really enjoy listening to. Looking at your rig, I suspect that your vinyl playback surpasses your digital playbeck by a good margin. Unless you want to spend money on a good DAC, just relax and enjoy yout vinyl! |
Kbuzz - If you read back through this thread, you'll see that I started with a pair of Ohm 2000s to replace my mains in my combo 2-channel/7.1 home theater. I then grabbed a pair of MWTs used on Audiogon to replace my surrounds, then ordered a center channel from Ohm. Only the subs and the back surrounds are not Ohms at this point. I am extremely pleased with the surround sound - Ohm speakers maintain their voicing uniformly throughout the Walsh series better than most other brands. |
