Haha, thanks! I'm young, don't own my own place, and don't have a lot of disposable income right now, so I'm creating the best system I can given those conditions. Things are shaping up nicely, and at this point I don't see any major upgrades or additions for awhile. Perhaps some better interconnects...
You've all been a huge help, so thank you for that. I plan on continuing to ask for advice and help in this thread rather than anywhere else. |
Rbf,
I think you have a very reasonable and healthy perspective on things! |
Ok, just bought the Furman! Right now I'm just using some cheap power strip so at the very least it's added protection, if not a slight upgrade in sound. |
Furman is one of my leading contenders for a power source upgrade someday. They are good value products with a rock solid reputation. |
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I found someone selling a Duet used for $150...any reason to buy it, at $50 more and with fewer plugs, than the Furman? |
AFAIK, Duets are limited to leftover stock - both the Duet & Quintet (which I use) are out of production. A replacement for the Quintet is soon to be available, at $500. I have not heard anything about a replacement for the Duet. I would look at this one: Furman PST-8 Power Station Series AC Power Conditioner, just about $100 on Amazon now. I have no experience with this unit, but Furman has a good reputation, and I think it is returnable if you buy from Amazon. |
Does a PS Audio Duet make more sense for what I'm asking than an APC G5? |
Unfortunately I rent, so anything like that is going to be ruled out for now. |
My vote for the biggest bang for the buck in power conditioner is from Alan Maher designs Quantum mini. These sell for $40 each and are placed on your circuit breaker(normally 4 are needed and each are connected to the ground). This conditions the whole house. You will hear an overall relaxing sound quality with purer extended highs and a larger soundstage. |
Something like this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0028RCZSS
?
But how do I deal with the whole 2 prong thing? Right now I have my power strip plugged in using a 3 to 2 prong converter. Is this detrimental to sound quality? |
Ok so now that I've got my Peachtree nova, kimber 4vs cables, and Microtalls, I'm thinking the last piece of the puzzle is going to be my power source. I know almost nothing about these line/power conditioners and I really can only spend around $100 right now. I'm dealing with a 2 pronged outlet and I have about 8 devices I need plugged in. How do I handle this situation? What will give me a decent clean power source and what is my real goal here? Thanks guys! |
Batch,
Glad to hear that things are shaping up as they should! |
Wow! Tonight (after running them as much as I could for over a month) it finally happened -- my 2.2000's totally blossomed. I had a Cal Tjader cd on and the decay on his vibes seemed to just float on and on into the room. Just fantastic.
Batch |
Kbuzz - While it would be very difficult to find another brand that was a good match in timbre for the Ohms, if your AVR or pre-pro has a room EQ feature, you should be able to get a better match than without that feature. Especially helpful is an EQ that can be adjusted manually, and separately for each channel. My very inexpensive Pioneer AVR (which I use as a pre-pro and amp for the surround channels in my combo 2-channel/HT system) has MCACC, the Pioneer proprietary room EQ program that does a very good job, and can be tweaked manually without losing any of the other settings. |
Bondmanp-thanks for the response. The n ceiling speakers were pre wired/installed when i bought the house. Since OHM does not make an in wall and wifey rejected the on wall ohms as ugly was trying to get suggestions as an in ceiling speaker with some timbre similarity to the ohms. The currently installed def techs do not. |
Kbuzz - If you read back through this thread, you'll see that I started with a pair of Ohm 2000s to replace my mains in my combo 2-channel/7.1 home theater. I then grabbed a pair of MWTs used on Audiogon to replace my surrounds, then ordered a center channel from Ohm. Only the subs and the back surrounds are not Ohms at this point. I am extremely pleased with the surround sound - Ohm speakers maintain their voicing uniformly throughout the Walsh series better than most other brands. |
Carja: My situation mirrors Mapman - we're even the same age! I love vinyl, own and still buy LPs, and spin them fairly often. But, the pleasure and ease of use from my Squeezebox Touch and server combo is fantastic. I only have about 20% of my CDs loaded onto the server, and even so, I usually reach for the Squeezebox remote when I want to listen to music. But I also have a DAC that I really enjoy listening to. Looking at your rig, I suspect that your vinyl playback surpasses your digital playbeck by a good margin. Unless you want to spend money on a good DAC, just relax and enjoy yout vinyl! |
yes, toe out with more direct tweeter exposure should help make the soundstage more centrally focused. small adjustments there can have a major effect. |
Thanks for the advice so far. Moving them a little farther apart and toeing out a bit made a drastic improvement. I don't think I've quite nailed it yet, but it's getting there! |
RBF,
If you play a mono recording, and sit in front of the OHMs, where does the sound appear to come from?
I find the center of the OHM soundstage tends to be the center of the rear wall behind them which may not be the same as the center between the speakers where the TV is when the speaker location is skewed to the right or left of center. Yours appear to be skewed significantly left, so it would not surprise me if the center of teh soundstage as you would hear with a mono recording is skewed to the right of teh TV location between the speakers. The TV may need to be more in the middle of the rear wall for it to work.
Also, if you listen from to the left or right in front of the speakers, the soundstage and its center will likely shift to the right and left accordingly as opposed to sitting dead center. |
Rbf-I just looked at your pics of your setup and I feel that the way you have your MWT's toed in is really going to mess up your staging big time, unless this is just them sitting there for fun. You should have them with the fronts of the speaker more straight on and they could use spreading apart by a bit more. If the image is still not quite the way you want it to be, try toeing them out versus in the way they are now. Slight adjustments at first until you get them locked in.
The way you have them toed currently is going to more or less send your image/treble right at the TV screen versus out toward you. The tweeters are at a diagonal/45 degrees so you need to somewhat sit intersecting that line. At any rate, they look nice, would like to see a better up close photo of yours. I like the black, are you satisfied with the fit and finish, and the grills look okay to you? Hope this helps some. Enjoy them! Tim |
I think the Ohm's can do a pretty good job of the phantom center, but as Map and other's have commented, speaker positioning is very much the key, and typically is still somewhat of a compromise.
With my setup using a 55" screen sitting on a stand that is just the width of the screen(kind of a lowboy stand), my walsh 3/3000's are about 9 feet apart and my listening position(about 6.5-7' from plane of speakers) is pretty much centered to lock the dialog/center in. But things still get a bit off once you move out of a small window. While the Ohm's manage a great soundstage for 2-channel music, I do think multi-channel is a different thing and can be tough to do with only 2 speakers.
The other thing is that each Ohm speaker can needs to basically "see" the other one in order for things to work well to begin with, so if any one of the speakers is blocked from the other one by the screen, cabinets etc., this will tend to throw the balance of things off, and you will not obviously get the staging right. So, clear paths between them is the way to go.
As a side note, I would recommend the Ohm Micro Walsh omni version for surround duties, very good in this mode. I even find them to be quite amazing for simple 2-channel L/R listening.
Enjoy your Ohm's guys! Tim |
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I moved them forward and in front of the shelf a bit and it got better, but it still needs some positioning work. |
rbf, my setup as pictured Here had similar issues when first set up as in the picture. Moving the OHMs forward 6-12 inches and moving the TV back to the rear of the table so that there was more distance to both TV and walls behind resolved the issue for me. |
Thanks map, pictures to come. The main issue will be that the TV is on an Ikea Expedit bookcase like this one: http://fatelessmusic.com/newsite/wp-content/themes/ikea-expedit-bookcase-7218.jpg
so they can only be so close.
I guess I could move the speakers in front of that, although I don't think my girlfriend will be pleased and it may look weird. Alternatively, I could pull the bookcase away from the wall and put the speakers behind it, although that will probably cause it's own sound issues. |
Rb,
I use my 100S3s in my two channel a/v system for A/V.
Speaker position is key to get a clean center channel image with 2 OHM mains in lieu of an actual center channel speaker. The speakers may need to be closer together and/or further out from the wall. Other items/obstacles nearby may have an effect on the reflected sound including a the tv in between. It all depends. More description/pictures of your setup would make it easier to help troubleshoot. |
RBF- yes i am. And i agree that it is not the ideal setup-but i think this about most stereo for tv listening. The dialog spread you are hearing, is imho sort of the down side to what is great about the ohms for music-namely the imaging and all over room sound.
This is why i want to buy a center channel from ohm to lock down that part of the viewing experience. |
Kbuzz, are you currently using the two Ohms as your left and right channels? I ask because as I just mentioned above, I have a 2-channel setup at the moment with the Ohms, but for tv/movies I'm getting a really jarring and unpleasant experience. The dialogue does not seem to come from the TV and I'm very aware of the sound coming from either side of the TV. |
Is anyone using their MWT's (or other ohm) in a 5.1 set up?
Im liking them so much im going to order a center from Ohm. If so, what are you using as surrounds?
I ask because my family room came pre-wired with in ceiling back surrounds and OHM does not make in wall stuff. Wifey has nixed the OHM on wall so i was curious about timbre matching with the previously installed surrounds. |
Batch,
Glad things are working out.
Carja,
HArd to say. I'm an older guy too (52) and leaned towards vinyl as well until I went with a NEtwork Music Player (first Roku SOundbridge, now Squeezebox TOuch) + music server. Now I spend most of my time with the Touch/music server.
I still have a lot of records that I would love to listen to if I had the time to muck with records but I have a huge backlog of things to listen to on my music server alone that will take me a long time to get through, so I only on occasion spin the vinyl when I get the urge.
I do tend to lean towards the vinyl for older vintage recordings and classical music in general but I also listen to a lot of newer stuff these days so that makes a difference. |
Finally getting my rig setup. Awaiting Kimber 4VS cables and using cheap wire right now.
While music from the turntable and computer sound great, I'm having a hard time with that "ghost center channel" for television, movies, etc. It just sounds like its coming from two speakers on either side of the tv.
I'll upload a picture of my setup this afternoon for more precise help here. |
Mapman, Bondman and others, I have a serious question. I have a turntable, many CDs, some excellent SACDs, a top notch FM receiver, and thousands of mp3's, mostly ripped at 196 kps or higher. Yet, 80 % of my listening is done on vinyl. Is it that I'm just an old guy who cut his teeth on vinyl and I'm into nostalgia or is there something unique about my setup with vinyl? Keep in mind that I took a nearly 30 year hiatus from vinyl until I set up my new system. |
Bondman,
Thanks for the info. And you'll be happy to know I ended up taking your & Map's advise and dumped the vintage Kenwood for powering the 2.2000s and replaced it with a Valve Audio Predator -- which made a huge difference. |
Batch - What Frazuer said, +1. I ran them plenty, and at all levels, during the trial period, and the changes were significant and obvious. FWIW, I don't think break-in, especially for loudspeakers, has much to do with "getting used to" the new speakers. Ask John Strohbeen or any speaker designer: The various materials in a loudspeaker, from the glues to the cone material to the caps in the crossovers all get excersized during the break in process, and as they flex, they eventually settle in to sounding as they were designed to. But fresh out of the box, the materials will not produce the intended sound.
Rbf1138: The Signal Cables would be a great buy, and at that price, easy to resell if you want to upgrade. I'd suggest picking them up, then, over time, audition cables, ones that can be returned, verses the Signal Cables, and see if you hear an improvement worth paying up for. |
So if it was between Kimber 4VS cables and Signal Cable Ultra cables, any reason I should go with one or the other for my Microtalls? I found an 8ft. pair of the Signals used for $55...seems like it'd be worth it, unless the Kimber's are considered a better match for the Walshes. |
Rbf,
For rock/prog/metal music at louder, real life type volumes, clipping is quite common with many amp/speaker combos. It comes into play gradually as volume goes up. If it is noticeable with the Nova/OHM combo, there are two possible solutions. A more powerful/beefier amp for use with the OHMS or more efficient speakers for use with the Nova. My recommendation for the best end results for that kind of music assuming one likes what the OHMs can do in general at lower to moderate volume before clipping might become a factor would be to get the biggest, beefiest amp possible for the OHMs. Class D amps can do this effectively in a smaller lighter package than other types if needed. That is how I ended up where I am today to max out performance of my big OHM 5s. Smaller OHMS in smaller rooms will be less demanding of the amplification. |
Rbf,
In general, listen for any audible signs of distortion or breakup usually due to amp clipping. When an amp clips, distortion will start to become audible during louder musical peaks and upping the volume further results in more distortion than increased volume as expected. I have never been able to overdrive any OHMs I have owned and get them to breakup otherwise. I suppose it is possible with a larger amp on a smaller OHM like a MWT. I doubt a Peachtree Nove would overdrive any OHM Walsh, so clipping as I described above is the thing most likely to watch out for. |
How would I know when I've turned these things up too loud? This is just theoretical, but I want to know I'm not gonna damage anything. Running them with a Peachtree Nova, but I don't know what the dial levels mean as far as wattage output. |
"Cranking" was a big part of the break-in process for me with my 5S3s. Any break in possible is a good thing though I would say. |
Thanks for the responses. I've already called John w/ questions & he's been very helpful. I've got them in a spare room hooked up to a radio, so I can run them 10 hours or so per day. Unfortunately, even though its a spare room, I can't really crank them up too much.
Batch |
Batch, I had one of the first 2000 series upgrades on a pair of older OW2 cabinets. I felt like the break in took most all of the trial time, and then even a bit after that it seemed they smoothed out over the course of several weeks thereafter. John will work with you though as long as you keep him in the loop from the get-go. If you have any issues or doubts about things, even early on, don't hesitate to bounce things off of him. Of course a lot of this will depend on how much play time you actually give them over the course of the trial period, the more the better. Enjoy! Tim |
He has them powered by one of the new Peachtree 220 ICE amps (220 wpc into 8 ohms, double into 4). I read the review on 6 moons as well and it is apparent he has preferences for one type of speaker but not this type of omni-speaker. I know some people that hate forward sounding speakers that push sound at you instead of letting it emanate from the speakers as most omni's and bipoles do. To each their own I guess but I know what I heard. On the other hand there is a favorable review of these speakers in Secrets of Home Theater/High Fidelity site. It's mostly a moot point anywhere as there aren't many of these out there and they are no longer made. I have no intrinsic interest in them as I prefer my Emerald Physics and am happy with them. Just saying if you ever get chance to check them out and you like the omni-type sound they are definitely worth a listen. |
Tex,
Yes, those are an interesting approach to a point source/wide dispersion/omni type design!
I would only point out that they do not appear to make any use of Walsh driver technology though, so they can't "out-Walsh" anything in that sense, for what its worth.
AN interesting design and maybe a very good value as well though. I would like to hear those. |
Interesting. The Mobius got one of the only negative reviews I've ever seen on 6Moons. What kind of equipment does your friend have them hooked up to? |
I've recently heard a speaker that 'out-walshes' the Ohm Walsh. I've owned the Walsh 2s, 4s, and 5's (older and newer series). I have a speaker fanatic friend who picked up a pair of Artistic Audio Mobius speakers which use two spherical dome midrange drivers in a bi-polar configuration with two tweeters suspended in front of them. There are bass woofers at the base of the speakers to make them more full range. They are very cool (think modern art) looking and sound incredible! Only thing is they take a lot of power (in my opinion) to sound their best. At least a good quality 100wpc amp or something with a high current design (parasound would be a good choice that comes to mind). Artistic Audio went out of business I hear and the story is they have like 1000 pair of speakers in a wharehouse in Kansan City, waiting for the bankruptcy to clear before someone can sell them off or dispose of them. They went for about $2500 retail. I like them better than the Ohms. Better build and better sounding. Just my two cents.... |
Batch,
I am familiar with the Walsh 2 upgrade process but never been through it. Doesn't sound too bad again if one is comfortable with ripping out teh old boards in the base and working a glue gun. I did the glue gun bit once on my old Walsh 2s to reattach some internal braces that had become detached over the years. Not too bad!
Don't have 1000 series but I suspect full breakin could take up to weeks/months depending on usage levels and volumes applied.
I have always wondered about adding/subtracting/rearranging damping material used internally on the Walshes as an easy tweak to try if needed, but have never spent time experimenting extensively. Might be worth it for some that might feel their OHMs are over or under damped in their application. |
My upgrade kit came this week, so -- after getting physical with a couple of glued in crossover boards -- I now have Walsh 2.2000s. My question is, can someone who owns something from the 1000s line give me a ballpark figure for how many hours in took to fully break these guys in? |
I actually think that the vast majority of "breaking in" is just getting used to the incredible sound stage that these speakers offer. It truly is a foreign sound when one first hears it. A good analogy would be headphones. One can put on a pair of topnotch headphones, and listen to music that has a flat frequency response curve from 20-20,000. But some people don't like them and prefer speakers. Sam thing with OHMs, but as in headphones one needs to put in 100 hours of listening to see if this does it for you and for many it will- just look at all the earbuds that one sees.
Having said all the above, I admit to fiddling around with speaker placement, switch positions (I have 5000's), etc until I was happy. Now I'm at the point of, "if it ain't broke, don't f*** with it". As a confession, I switched out the WWII 6SN7's for the Black Treasures from Shuguang- the RCA's were too microphonic, but they did give voices a dreamy quality, like being transported back to the 40's. |
Anyone who does not believe in break in should audition ohms for a month. Mine are a few weeks old and they have taken on different sound aspects. Right now they seem to be going through a "dumb" period as a bit congested ......but they have certainly floated my boat thus far |
