I'd love to hear the impressions of people who've actually spent some time with these speakers to share their sense of their plusses and minuses. Mapman here on Audiogon is a big fan, and has shared lots on them, but I'm wondering who else might be familiar with them.
I have not fired up DSOTM in quite a while. I need to do that again just for reference in that so many know this milestone recording and I have undergone a lot of changes to my system since I last listened.
Thought I would check in after a long hiatus from this thread. Not much to say previoulsy because I've been struggling to get my setup to sound good with my Walsh 5000 protoypes in my room. It's no fun to report when the struggle is ongoing. So I've been quiet. Been through different amps and preamps. I can finallly report that I've turned the corner and good sound is in the house with the W4S ST-1000 amp and newly added Cary SLP-05 preamp. The 5000's really do holography, imaging and dimensionality that I had not heard previous to the addition of the Cary and I haven't even rolled tubes yet. The Cary has brought a new level of palpability to the Walsh speakers.
Foster, what is different in your prototype 5000's? Just curious. Glad you are getting your system sorted though. The Cary is a nice looking rig, haven't heard it yet but my local dealer is a big fan-must be why he sells them! Enjoy! Tim
Glad to hear that you've turned the corner, obviously after a great deal of effort (and expense). How is the bass now, which iirc was the most significant issue earlier on? Assuming it is now reasonably good, which component change was primarily responsible for improving it?
Hi Al, yes the expense has been for me more than I would have wanted or ever thought of before. But you can't quit. For bass the room seems to be bad with the speakers flanking the short wall. Top to bottom bass included however has improved at least to the point that I can live with it. The sound is much more fleshed out (fuller top to bottom) in general with the new preamp and clarity too is a big improvement. And I always have subs if I decide to turn them on for stronger lows.
Well, I just got my Micro SE's, and I'm listening to them now. The good- highs, mids, soundstage, form-factor, and they look pretty cool. The bad- bass. It's not horrible, but I feel like I need a sub, and that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid (I used a sub with monitors for years, but I'm trying to downsize, hence, the small-footprint floor-stander). I recently sold my sub, and put my monitors on the floor (they were Tyler Taylo Reference) and they produced more bass than the SE's. BTW, supposedly, the SE's go an octave lower than the Talls. And, I don't have to bother with break-in (I REALLY hate breaking-in speakers)... John @ OHM sold me a pair with used drivers (but, new cabinets & hardware). I have them a few inches from the wall- that seemed a bit better than when they were pulled out. My room is NOT acoustically friendly (hardwood floors, furniture all about, small NYC place, etc), and that's not going to change (unless I move). I played one of my best sounding albums for bass (Hendrix - Band of Gypsys), and if all records were recorded like this, I'd be ok. But, so far, every other album sounds anemic. It's too bad, because I really want to like these. They do so many things right, but I can't ignore the bass (or, lack thereof). It's a factor that's too important to overlook. As for my equipment, I have a Rogue Tempest 2 (integrated tube amp- I love this thing), Jolida phono amp (it was cheap, but I think it's one of the reasons I like vinyl so much more than cd's), Music Hall MMF-7 (no complaints), and the digital stuff doesn't matter since I don't use it. I don't want to change any of my electronics- I'm happy with all of it (esp. the Rogue). Plus, I've heard how this system can sound with other speakers, so I feel it's fine. Damn, I am kind of bummed. Yeah, the SE's were cheaper than my Tylers and take up less floor space, but the overall listening experience has diminished a bit. I'm not even comparing these with the Tylers and the sub- I'm just talking about the monitors-on-the-floor setup. I really wanted to like these... damn. I should probably point out that I've only owned box-style speakers... never had anything like the OHM's.
Are you getting a big soundstage and reasonably detailed imaging at least at this point? If not, your ears may not be tuned in to the omni presenation yet. That can take time depending. It took me a while even when I acquired the series 3 driver based models and I had owned OHMs for years prior.
If your not used to omni's, you might want to give your ears a chance to adjust to the different presentation. ALso the OHMs may take some time to open up a bit. Keeping them closer to the rear wall will help the bass.
How far apart are the OHMs and how far back are you listening from? Also, is your listening position not up against any walls?
Be sure to check basics like proper speaker wiring polarity, etc.
The unique presenation in regards to soundstage and imaging is the most unique aspect of the OHMs and omnis in general that you will not replicate with conventional designs. Once you tune into that, you might have a different perspective on the bass as well. Or possibly not. I am not an advocate of even the best tube amps in general with the OHMs. They reach their potential best with lots of current and power and also are not very efficient and have the difficult load deal going. I've found even my smaller 100S3 benefit from the 500 w/ch Class D amp I am using these days. Micros are less efficient than 100s even I believe, so I suspect the same is true with them.
Ron, I would give heed to what Mapman says about the amplification you are using as he has quite a bit of experience with Ohms.
Still, if you are unwilling at this point to consider a different amp, then I think playing around with speaker placement is a must for you. It would be helpful to know the size of your room, limitations, and listening position.
Before you abandon the Ohms, give your ears a chance to get accustomed to their sound and experiment with placement.
Not sure of your budget and what it is that drew you to the Ohms in the first place; you might also want to check out the Ohm Walsh vs. Mirage OMD 28 thread. As has been written there and elsewhere, the Ohm models are voiced very similarly with the main differences being base extension and SPLs. In the Ohm/Mirage thread, it has been noted that the Mirage 28 has good base.
When I had my MWT's (also in a smallish room with hardwood floors) bass was never an issue, and although I eventually moved away from the omni thing, I remember bass being one of their strengths, especially for their size. It may be that you're not used to the sound, or that it's a placement issue, or that as Map says, they don't do their best with tube power amps.
Also, while monitors on the floor would give gobs of bass reinforcement in comparison to which the Ohms might seem anemic, but I always found the bass to be fast and tuneful-- not window rattling, but balanced.
Just to be clear regarding tube amps and OHMs, I don't doubt that some combos might float peoples boat and some listeners whose opinions I respect report fairly good results. I have not heard OHMs and tube amps enough to say conclusively. I'm just saying that big SS amps are the best match technically to get the most out of them. YOu can fall a good bit short of that and still have a satisfying combo.
There are a lot of OHM Walshes out there over the years that I suspect many have never heard driven to their max running off of lower power and lower current stereo receivers, and such. THey have traditionally not had a high price of admission and are run on lots of kinds of systems compared to much high end stuff.
As I indicated the 100S3s (Walsh 2 size drivers) even benefit from the 500w/ch Class D amp. How many people have had access to that kind of power to drive OHMs over the years? Not many, including me.
"Are you getting a big soundstage and reasonably detailed imaging at least at this point?" Yes. Definitely. That's not a problem at all. I don't have any latitude on placement. I sit on the back wall (on a sofa- in the middle), and the speakers are on the side walls, a couple feet in front of me, and aimed at me. They are as close to the side walls as I can get them (I tried pulling them out, but that was worse). They are about 11 feet apart. But, like I said, I don't really have anywhere else to put them. I don't think my ears need to get acclimated... I'm doing a pretty fair comparison. I didn't change any cables or speaker wire- I just swapped out the speakers, and changed the amp settings from 8 Ohm to 4 Ohm (actually, I forgot to do that at first, but it really didn't make much of a difference, anyway). BTW, even though my amp is a tube amp, it IS 90 wpc, so it's not like I'm using a SET. The OHM's are actually louder than the Tyler monitors- I can barely turn the volume past halfway without pissing off the neighbors (the amp has a passive pre, so turning the volume all the way [to eleven] is not uncommon, although it feels weird if you aren't used to that setup). I appreciate the help (and concern- funny, it's like an AA group), but I don't know that these speakers are going to magically start producing bass. I think I'm going to look for some used Proac Studio 140's or maybe Totem Hawk's. I could add a sub (but, I just sold my passive sub and amp), but that was my whole reason for going with floor-standers- I want to avoid the sub (and, I want my stereo to be a bit simpler). Again, thanks for the help. Either way, I'll keep using these until I find something else, and I'll do a side-by-side comparison before I send the OHMs back. I'll talk to John before I send them back, though.
Hey Ron, That's too bad about the bass - I've always thought of the MWTs as a great apartment speaker. I'm in a 12x20 room and my MWTs have tons of bass. My amp is a 70 Watt Cyrus 8vs2 - not a lot of power, but when I replaced my McIntosh integrated, I noticed much deeper bass with the Cyrus.
I've also simplified my set up recently. I really wanted to go tubes (I was looking at Rogue and Manley Labs) - but I didn't want to give up the Ohms, so I'm sticking with SS for now...
I was using a solid state power amp (Bel Canto S300) with a tube preamp (Manley Shrimp) with my Ohm 100's and it was a sweet combination. Seems a good way to give the Ohms the juice they want with the dimensionality and sweetness of tubes.
Any chance of getting them closer togather? A lot closer? I had a similar situation with my MWT's, and have found that having them about 5' apart, 6' if front of me ande about 1' off the rear wall yields solid bass and an amazing soundstage.
I can't really get them in front of me... they are more to the sides. They are probably only 2 feet "in front" and about 5 feet to the sides, but due to crap in the room, I can't really change this. I did move them around a bit, but the bass seemed the best when close to the side walls. What really seems lacking is that kick you get from the bass drum, and the punch from the snare. I only listen to rock, so there's quite a lot of that in the music I like. Even though I'm not adding a sub (no floor space, plus other reasons), I'm not sure it would really help much. I'm not looking for the 20Hz stuff... I doubt anything I listen to even gets below 35 or 40Hz (although I've never measured).
In general, I believe it takes inherently more power to get "kick" from omnis equivalent to what you might get with similar efficiency directional speakers aimed at your listening position. That is because with imnis, the sonic energy is emmitted in all directions whereas with more directional designs it is all essentially aimed at you.
Due to room constraints (12X12 with some large furniture and a TV in the room)I've had my 100S3s in a rather unique more wide and nearfield configuration for the last few months that I have found works well, yet is radically different from the typical setup and even how I have my 5s setup in the larger room.
My listening position is a couch on the rear wall. My electronics are on furniture occupying most of the left wall. The TV is in the front right corner, and there is a sizable computer desk center on the front wall.
The left speaker sits about 2/3 of the way from the left side of the couch to the rear wall. The right speaker sits about halfway between rear and front wall (about 2 feet further out from the rear wall than the left) and only about a foot from the right wall. Everything is tuned in quite well with more than adequate bass, proper top to bottom balance, detailed imaging and a room size sound stage that can almost immerse the listener in the music.
Its a totally different presentation however than in teh larger rooms with the 5s which are both equidistant from teh rear wall, about 5 feet apart, and where I normally listen a good 6-8 feet or more back from teh speaks. Occasionally, I listen from a chair that is about 2 feet in front of the speakers and about a foot to the outside of the left speaker. There, the soundstage is again more near field in nature and the image fills in nice and coherently with a slight shift in overall location to the right....the magic of omnis!
Okay, to bump this thread a bit, and also since it is a little overdue, I posted my full review of my Ohm Walsh 2000s in the review section: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?rspkr&1270213477&&&/Ohm-Acoustics-Ohm-Walsh-2000-Speaker Feel free to comment here or there!
Listening to ACDC Back in Black vinyl- some songs sound a bit thin. But, Rock & Roll Ain't... sounds great. These MicroTalls are so close to being "perfect" (and, yes, I'm definitely talking about 'for the money'). I didn't think speakers for this price could sound this good. The mids, highs, and soundstage are great, but I feel like I need a sub. Maybe because I've used subs for so long? Just figured I'd post an update, since this thread was bumped. I'll say that I'm not disappointed, but I am missing the bass.
Ron, I owned a pair of micro talls for 5 months and never thought they lacked bass. Part of the problem is that most of your music is on vinyl. They just couldn't put that much bass on lp's, or the needle would be jumping right out of the groove, so if you wanted more bass, you had to supplement it with subs and room placement ect. CD's today are capable of almost unlimited low end extension. You might want to buy a few cd's that you know have a lot of low end and give them a listen. This will show you what the micros can do, and you might be a bit surprised at how much bass they can produce by themselves. You will probably want to re-add a sub to listen to your lp's as they will sound rather "anemic" without a sub, but this was the norm for the times and we hade no choice. Don't give up on your micro talls. I just sent mine back and upgraded to the new 1000. I'm breaking them in, but the Ohm magic is still there, great bass(on cd's), soundstage and overall presentation that will improve with time. I really loved the micros, but needed something that could handle more power. I'll be posting my impressions od the 1000's as time and break-in permit, but I'm convinced that I've got something really special with the Ohms, and if I choose to upgrade again, it will be with Ohms Good luck Joe
I'm very interested in hearing people's impressions of the new and improved 1000's series drivers versus the older series 3 drivers that I have in both pair of OHM Walshes and were used in MWTs from the outset, I believe.
Having not heard the latest drivers, its difficult for me to provide reliable feedback on those based on prior versions in that one cannot assume what is similar, different or improved sound-wise.
Joe- I've always found I got MORE bass with vinyl, esp. the newer, remastered stuff. I actually gave up on cd's and sold my Rega Apollo (everything sounded lifeless on that thing). I'm not sure why- maybe my phono amp is the wildcard (although, it's nothing special- Jolida). Either way, my stereo is basically all analog for me (I have a Yamaha cd recorder to copy albums- I can play cd's if I really wanted, but it sounds similar to the Rega). I'm not giving up yet, but I don't want to go back to a sub- at least, not where I currently live (no room for one).
There is quantity of bass and quality of bass. Amps with higher damping factors tend to work well with the larger OHMs at least I believe. When I was amp hunting, I only considered amps with damping factors > 50. My old Carver was lower and had flat bass particularly at lower levels. The damping factor spec on the amps I'm running now is >1000 according to Bel Canto's specs. And let me tell you, the bass is by far the cleanest and most fulfilling I have heard on OHMs, though when I first hooked the Bel Cantos up, the bass sounded quite lean compared to prior.
My Odyssey Stratos HT3 is rated at >500 continuous damping factor. While run full range the 2000s sounded great, my beloved Vandy 2Wq subs (a pair of them) naturally put more extended, more powerful bass into the room than the Ohms alone. I think the combo of the 2Wqs and the Walsh 2000s is fantastic (although any good speaker that extends to 40Hz will work well with the Vandy subs).
As for the bass on vinyl, IMO, it can be quite deep and full. True, vinyl has physical limitations, but that is what RIAA EQ (and other EQ) circuits are for. Well-recorded vinyl through the MM phono section on my Connie-J PV-11 preamp does not lack bass. Much rock on vinyl is no better mixed and mastered than rock is on CD. Garbage-in, garbage-out, as they say.
For those of you following my Walsh 2000 saga, I am hoping to order the spike cradle bases from Sound Anchors soon.
You might consider some simple home grown solutions in order to get the OHMs to sit squarer. Anything that helps to stabilize them can only help the sound. How about some $5.00 felt pads from Home Depot underneath to square things up (similar to squaring up a table or chair)?
Folded up pieces of paper or newspaper should even work if hidden and not too unsightly.
Mapman - I did receive, gratis, from Ohm, a box full of shims and pads to level the 2000s. They do provide better leveling, but it's hard to describe just how uneven my floor is. With the speakers individually levelled, I would guess that there is about an inch in hieght difference between them.
When I order the custom-made Sound Anchors bases, I will specify a large range of adjustment via the screw in spikes. The goal is to level each speakers and get them level with each other. Also, since multiple shims and pads are now in use, moving the speakers to try and improve placement is a dicey task - it took quite a while to level each speaker. The new bases will provide a quicker way to reposition the speakers and then re-level them. Plus, even with the shims and pads, there is a little bit of play in the speakers, so that they rock a bit back-and-forth and side-to-side. I hope to eliminate this as well, even though John Strohbeen feels that this is not a problem for the Walsh designs, since the driver excursion is up-and-down and not back-and-forth. Nevertheless, my audio neurosis won't be satisfied until I get the 2000s sitting rock solid.
A solid foundation can only help and not hurt, I believe. how much exactly is not clear to me in the case of the OHMs, possibly less than in general as John suggests.
A thing to note to wean optimal performance on Walshes (like my F5's) is to check occasionally to make sure the driver is firmly secured to the cabinet at all times. The F5s secure the driver to teh base using 4 wing nuts that I find tend to loosen up a bit over time, especially when letting things rip at higher volumes. You want these to be firm, not loose, but do not over tighten them .
I noticed a pair of OHM 4.5 mkiis up for sale here currently for what appears to be a very good price, just a bit over a grand! Seller indicates these were John Potis' speakers on which he published a review.
These are 2 generation old Walsh 5 drivers in Walsh 4 cabinets, adaptable for all size rooms. The mkii's used a different tweeter I believe than the newer series 3s, but the Walsh drivers are identical as I understand it.
i'm a proud owner of ohm walsh 300 mk 2, ohm walsh 4x0, 2x0, pro 200, eminent tech lft 8a which i will upgrade to a b, and will replace my non working maggie 2.5 with the new 1.7, and a rare acoustat spectra 33 w/spl-1 subwoofer my most majestic collection, driven by carver and sunfire amps! with dakiom feedback stabilizers and many more equipment too many to list. You can own great sound without being wealthy. That is what AUDIOGON is all about, such a great community. Here at audiogon, wealthy people sell their well cared for awesome equipment because of upgrad bug to us audio PEASANTS who couldn't afford retail. Used equipment from audiogoneers is the smartest shopping anywhere in home audio period!
I resist the urge to just dump all other makes altogether and go all OHM. I do like to contrast and compare different designs that I like, however in the end, if I had to downsize, I'd be fine with pure wall to wall OHMs, even after over 30 years of ownership.
It's funny, this could be a (GASP!) new thread: Tiger Woods, fidelity and Ohm.
I recently ended an 8+ year early retirement to (GASP!) go back to work. As a result, my music time has shrunk from app. 4 hrs a day (split between listening and piano and/or guitar practice) to about 1 hr. a day.
Although, in theory, I rotate my Verity P/E, Merlin VSM, and Maggie MMGs into the system periodically, that was slowing down, anyway. Now with the time crunch (okay, piano is going, I'm hopeless anyway), I may just bail on the other speakers.
Anyone in SoCal looking for a deal? I guess I'm an Ohm guy, now.
BTW the OHMs I would most like to add that I do not already have (if I had room) are the Walsh-less Hs and Is.
For application in smaller rooms, either another pair of Ls (with latest and greatest crossover and drivers from OHM) or one of the harder to find CAM/PRO series, which I have never actually heard, perhaps.
Here's some email news from OHM I just received that should be of interest to those looking at upgrading older OHMs.
"Dear Ohm owners,
To encourage you to move up to the "latest and greatest Ohms ever", we are increasing the trade in values of all old Ohm Walsh speakers.
You can get 40% off the new Walsh Thousand series with the trade in of older Ohm Walsh speakers (maximum trade in value is the original retail of the trade in.)
Model Price after Trade-in Savings Old model needed MicroWalsh SE $ 840 per pair $ 560 Any Walsh speaker Walsh 1000 $1200 per pair $ 800 Walsh 2 or higher Walsh 2000 $1680 per pair $1120 Walsh 3 or higher Walsh 3000 $2400 per pair $1600 Walsh 3 or higher Walsh 4000 $3360 per pair $2240 Walsh 4XO or higher Walsh 5000 $3900 per pair $2600 Walsh 300 Mk-2 or higher
Shipping & Handling is still only $50 per pair.
This offer is good thru April 30, 2010. We may extend the offer if we get enough response.
Please give me a call to discuss your needs and options.
Just off the phone with John and have ordered the 4.5000 upgrade for my Ohm Walsh 4's. I will post my opinion once I get them in and have a chance to listen. I have Cary Solid State electronics. Replacing Gallo Ref 3.1 with SA.
That should be a very nice upgrade (three generations of driver improvements) from original Walsh 4's to the latest 5000 drivers! I would expect to hear a big difference. Please let us know how it turns out.
This thread is a great expose of audiophilia nervosa. It emphasizes perfectly how audiophiles are nearly unable to seperate better from different sound. Note the OP's initial OTT excitement over the MWTs, as followed by the rollercoaster ride that was the ensuing months of public anxious wrangling over what was really best, those or the Totems. After all the Ohm gushing, the OP finally decides he doesn't really like them. A kid picking petals off a flower: I love you, love you not, love you, love you not....
Folks, for these reason it's really important to learn critical listening and to know what you like. This will keep you from going through the same money-losing and manufacturer-bothering anxiety that the OP went through.
Not to derail this thread too much but OK, I'll bite, Kristian: What do you mean by critical listening? Are you referring to active listening to music or a system as I perceive the two labors to be quite different?
I think that offer by John Strohbeen is quite compelling. It's too bad other manufacturers don't do this but that is one of the interesting things about how John runs his company: He is always willing to do things outside the box to give owners (and propsective owners) genuine value for their purchase.
Kristian85, As the OP in this thread, I found your comments to be pretty condescending, even insulting. "A kid picking petals off a flower?" "Manufacturer-bothering anxiety?" Pretty harsh, don't you think? I'm not interested in hijacking this excellent and informative thread to engage in a flame war, but I do want to set the record straight. This will be my only post on this matter: The only thing I'd have done differently throughout my investigation would have been to buy used gear, when possible. It would have saved me some money. Other than that, with no local dealers carrying gear that I wanted to hear in my room, in my system, I don't know how else I'd have learned what worked for me. There were and are things I loved about the Ohms and it took me a year of living with my 100's to figure out what I was less than pleased with about them. I won't go into that here. But when I borrowed a pair of small, two-way monitors and listened to them in my room, I thought, "Bingo, this is it!" And I've been very pleased with where my system is going since then. As for manufacturer-bothering, my impression was never anything other than John Strohbeen enjoying talking to customers and trying nearly anything to make them happy. I respect him for that. He's a unique personality and an industry pioneer -- and he certainly has lots of integrity. Okay, I'm done.
I find the phrase "Ohm Gushing" to be quite hilarious. Anyone who has not heard these speakers, or any omni speaker, just don't know what they're missing. We're gushing because we're hearing something unique that most other speakers don't do. I'm breaking my 2nd set of Ohms, a pair of the new 1000's, and will be posting my impressions as time goes by. I origimally had a pair of the micro talls, which I LOVED, but needed something that could handle more power. My speaker search is over, as the Ohms have surpassed my expectations in almost every way, but others will continue to search for their "Holy Grail" until they find something that sets them on their ear, and they can die happy knowing that they finally found the speakers of their dreams. We shouldn't be faulted for searching for that or changing our minds, as we don't always get it right the first time. This thread allowed me to make an informed decision, and gave me all the facts, positive and negative. My thanks to everyone who contributed to this informative, enlightning thread. Long live Audiophilia Nervosa!!!!!!
Kristian85: Have you ever heard an Ohm loudspeaker? If so, please post your impressions. FWIW, I heard some fantastic kit over the weekend. I heard the $54K smaller Scena (sp?) four piece towers, driven by s.s. BAT amp and preamp, and $10K AMR CD player. Huge, open soundstage, incredible definition, decay, powerful extended bass - it was all there. Did this major-buck rig outperform my Ohm 2000s? Of course. So did a more modest (!) system consisting of KEF Reference 207 (the current version) driven by Manley 100 watt tube monos and the same AMR CD player. Big, open and airy sound with great detail and again, excellent decay. Also better then my own rig. But the KEFs cost $20K/pr. I went home and listened to my modest hodge-podge rig with my Ohm 2000s. I know it does not live up to those expensive systems I heard, but it still produced pleasing, enjoyable music, and put a smile on face. For the money, that is no small feat, and why I and others "gush" over Ohm speakers.
I regularly listen to high end systems for reference and comparison and have worked to get my system into the same league.
THese days, I think I have accomplished that. I might be the Blue Jays or Rays rather than the Yankees, but my setup competes.
One thing I can assert is that the OHMs have never been the bottleneck. Every change I make is clearly audible.
You do have to look at the whole system together including room, etc.
Once you do that, choice of speakers can become a very personal choice to determine what kind of sound you want. My goal is to sound as much like a live performance of any musical genre as possible. The OHMs let me do that. OTher speakers might edge them out in some categories (as the OHMs might as well) but the OHMs are clearly the total package at nominal cost.
Let it suffice to say that in this age of self-obsessed public blog-wrangling with personal issues and decisions, if you do this, expect to be subject to criticism.
It was the OP's gushing and OTT exclamations re the Ohms when he first heard them that I found amusing and instructive. The OP was hopefully disabused of the notion that different is better.
Strohbeen has the patience of saints, and is to be highly commended. Though I am normally strictly beholden to active speakers (ATCs etc.) due to far lower distortion than passives, I'm certainly curious to hear some Ohms, and will do so when possible though I'm leery of suboptimally flat FR over the audible range at the listening position. As a trained listener, I'll know in 15 minutes or less whether they're for me. Usually in the first couple of bars.
NEver heard the term "suboptimally flat FR" before.
What does it mean?
Also, I would not condemn someone for having a change of heart on these things over time. It happens all the time and does not necessarily mean that the process is flawed. You generally have to take some hits in the interest of learning. My hope would be merely to keep the costs associated with the discovery process to a minimum.
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