Long time no post, thanks to my company's draconian web blocking policies. But, a few things to add.
Subwoofing: As you may know, I augment my 2000s with a pair of Vandersteen 2Wq subwoofers, which are now equipped with the battery biased Vandersteen crossovers. Those looking for top-flight bass extension for any speaker that produces a good response down to 40Hz has to look at these subs. I bought them and the crossovers used, and the blending with the 2000s is totally seamless. Also, they work perfectly in corners, as per their design goal.
Upper-mid/lower-treble range: The Ohm Walsh 2000 performance in this range is one of the main reasons I bought them. Many speakers hype this range in order to add detail and presence. But turn them up a bit, and - ouch! IMHO, KEFs have this exaggerated presence range to varying degrees. I listen to my 2000s at lower volumes when checking email, using internet radio or basic Pandora, and I never find them lacking at these lower volumes. In fact, I have to keep it lower, because if I turn the volume up even a little, I will get distracted by the beautiful music I hear.
Still better: A while back, I moved my amp from my rack to the front wall near the speakers. This required a long IC run from the preamp. It also left me with a lot of extra speaker-wire. Since I wanted to upgrade the speaker wire (Kimber 4PR), I left them in place and coiled up the excess on foam cable risers. Stuff happens, and I have never been able to afford a speaker cable upgrade.
I recently had a few of my audio buddies over for some listening, and I requested that no punches be pulled on the sound. It took one of them about 5 minutes to look at the coils of speaker wire and ask me if I felt my highs were a bit closed in. Why, yes, I do feel they are a bit closed in, with too much center image and not enough soundstage width. I had chalked that up to the room or limitations of the 2000s. Well, he informed me that a coil of wire like that acts as an inductor, and rolls off the highs. In about 20 minutes, he and one other guest had started cutting and reterminating my speaker wire for a much shorter run, and no coils of wire. WOW! I now had air, a wider soundstage, and much more open highs, with no downside (like excess brightness or etch). A great, free upgrade. Better than free, really, as I will sell the excess cable they cut up. |
Also I had modest STAX phones for many years up until recent. These sounded different somewhat with different amps but never veiled. Also I have heard very expensive Audeze off very good amplification which were very etched and detailed. Have never heard Hifiman, though I have almost jumped on those a few times based on what I read. |
Which Sennheisers? Just curious.
A lot of the better Senns are said to benefit from good quality amplification. OHMs are teh same way.
I have portable Sennheiser Momentum over ear phones which are said to be somewhat easier to drive than teh "audiophile" models, but I find the amp used makes a huge difference still in terms of clarity. They sound best by far to me so far with the Bel Canto c5i I picked up recently and I hear the same results off teh C5i with my OHM 100s3.
OHMs are similar I find. The amplification and source used makes a similar difference. They can become somewhat veiled if things are not going right, but not so at all when they are. |
Hey Mapman!
I've been seriously into headphones for the past 3 years, and for me the planar-magnetic models from Hifiman also have similar sonic qualities to my Ohms, especially in the midrange and treble.
The Senns are just too rolled-off in the upper midrange for me, and I always experience a 'veil' in the details that I don't experience with my MWT's. |
Here again is the invaluable adio frequency chart that shows what music occurs at various frequencies as well as the frequency response of human hearing for comparison. I always find it most useful to help understand what I am hearing and why. Audio Frequency Chart |
Marty.
I am not equiped to do such measurements, but what you relate is consistent with my observations.
I did a lot of research into headphones recently and looked at a lot of phone measurements online. I've always thought the OHM sound to resemble Sennheiser, which some often cite as "rolled off".
What I recall noticing is that most Sennheiser phones measure relatively flat whereas many other leading competing brands have frequency respones seemingly designed to compensate for teh well documented non linear frequency response of human ears. As I noted above, human ears frequency response drops off at the extremes even more so at lower volumes. So transducers taht are "flatter" may not sound as right at lower volumes as a result.
Joek, my brilliant Ipad spell checker changed my spelling of your name into "joke" and I did not notice until after posting. My apologies if that came across improperly. For some reason this is one of those threads that does not allow me to edit posts afterwards. |
Jock,
I've found (and measured) the Ohms (I use S100s) to be very neutral. That's sometimes evident in the lower midrange/upper bass where some high-end designs are goosed a bit to sound richer or in the upper mids where extra energy gives some speakers more"jump". IMO, neither of those approaches is a cardinal sin if the speakers' overall balance is appropriate and the deviation isn't too extreme. Notwithstanding that wiggle room, the Ohms just don't meaningfully go there.
Further, the top end of my 100s rolls off less quickly than some competing designs. The 100s also lack full range bass extension (as do most speakers at that price point). The overall impression may be "thin" sounding to some, but I'd call it pretty close to dead neutral.
I don't know your Kefs, so I can't speculate as to the issue you've ID'd. I can only note that the Ohms are quite neutral in my room.
As to Mapman's comments, Ohms are relatively rare speakers of unusual design. Mapman probably has more experience with Ohm designs than the rest of the board members combined. In this corner, his comments are always appreciated. |
Why does my opinion bother you? At least I'm consistent.
If you disagree with something your free to express your opinion as well. |
7 years my man.
Give it a rest. |
Andrew
I can assure you I am not on any payroll having anything to do with audio. |
After reading the entire thread it appears mapman is on the payroll. |
Joke
I've run ohm. 100s3 f5s3 dynaudio contour and triangle Titus off various amps over the last few years.
First off the exact sound with the ohms is largely a function of the gear used and the room. I can hear clear differences with most any change including power cord and interconnects. So the exact complete setup will largely determine the results which can vary widely.
Second I would say the 100s3 ohms always are the least fatiguing. The dynaudios and triangles tend towards a hotter presentation that must be tamed to some extent and can become unpleasant with some setups. That's never the case with the ohms. Their top end tends to be more recessed in comparison.
That does not make them the best necessarily for low volume listening in that our ears are less sensitive at frequency extremes and more so at lower volumes. The common on solution to this that a lot of gear used to provide is a loudness control that boosts high and low frequencies to be heard better at low volume.
So I'd say the ohm sound in general is consistent with your observations. You can orient the ohms 45 degrees outward to provide more direct tweeter exposure I that they normally are oriented 45 degrees inward. That might be a useful easy tweak to adjust for lower volume.
Also I would say the dynaudio esotar soft dome tweeter is quit good and a different beast than the soft domes used in the ohms and most others. They seem to have more bite that helps put an extra edge to the music. Which again can be a good or bad thing depending. |
Wanted to pose a question about how Ohm owners feel about the quality of upper midrange and highs they get from their Ohms? I moved to mostly late night listening and found the W2-100s3 didn't work well at low volume so I got a pair of Kef r300 monitors which work well for late night. The thing I discovered was that the Kefs are much richer in midrange and high content? I had not felt I was missing anything with the Ohms but now I wonder...I have found that when I can I run both speakers and the sound is much fuller. Is this the difference between box speakers and the Ohms? I had bought a Marantz PM8500 to try modern hardware out. I was partly swayed to that because it allowed for two speaker hookups. I had not planned on running two simultaneously just was tired of having to swap out cables when I switched between day and night. |
Not sure. Right now I use an emotiva UMC-200 stereo amp for my older MWT's. I'll either get another stereo amp, and a 5-channel and possibly add a center. Lots of options, but the price and condition of the speakers were too good to pass up. |
Hi Parasound63
What are you going to power your MWT SEs with? I have the Ohm Walsh MicroWalsh Short SEs with Class D type amps from Red Dragon Audio and I'm beyond happy. |
Nice. Let us know how they work out. |
I just picked up a pristine set of MWT SE's off of Headfi for $700 plus shipping. From a headphone forum! |
I would agree, seems to be a lot of good dacs to play around with! |
Hey Tim! Great to hear from you. All's well here.
I got a great deal on the dac from an Agon'er and am very happy with it. Even at the retail price, this thing is impressive. It has a great usb reclocking function, and a 3rd party app turns the Touch's usb input into an output.
The bang for the buck ratio in budget dacs has become fantastic in the last couple of years. |
John, good to see that things are going well for you with the Ohms and DAC etc.! |
I recently got a Micromega Mydac which has received very good to glowing reviews. Most intriguing for Ohm Walsh fans is the repeated observations that the Mydac excels at 3D imaging and enhancing the soundstage. Of course, this plays to the Ohms' strong suit.
I run a Squeezebox Touch into the Mydac, and the dac into an Acurus DIA-100 integrated amp (substituting for my ailing Sansui). The Acurus is known to be very sensitive to source (quite true). The Mydac does improve the sound from the Acurus top to bottom, with great clarity, detail, and high end extension. But the most impressive change came from my Ohm 2000s. The Mydac matched superbly with them, broadening the soundstage beyond the speaker (which only happened occasionally prior). The imaging is now notably more 3D and holographic on recordings where this characteristic is present. It's not a particularly warm sound; it's more neutral and transparent, much like the Ohms and the DIA-100. IMO, this sound signature works well with the Ohms' well-behaved tweeter. To top it off, the Mydac is an affordable budget item. One gets a lot of bang for the buck on the dac market these days. But this one seems to play particularly nice with Ohm Walshes. |
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Map, I'm pretty sure it was the 9th episode. There is a nice shot of them placed along that amazing wall of windows (gorgeous view!). I was glad to see/hear Harry's love of jazz faithfully portrayed .. the Ohm's and Marantz gear is a nice touch. |
Which episode is that? I've seen them but only for a few fleeting seconds here and there. Inquiring minds want to know. |
I just saw the episode of "Bosch" where you can clearly see the Ohm's and it put a big smile on my face. I'm a fan of the novels the series is based on and Harry (main character) is a jazz and vinyl lover. Fun. Oh, and I liked the first season btw. |
...and they don't even sell ohms on Amazon. 😉 |
So, on the Amazon series "Bosch", the main character has Ohm's, being driven by an old McIntosh Amp with a Marantz turntable! |
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Hi Mapman,
I listen almost exclusively to classical music - everything from 44.1, 88.2, 96, 176, 192 and a few DSD. I will say that a poorly recorded, compressed mess still sounds that way, but that may change when I get the Hephas or so I read in the reviews. :-)
The biggest difference I hear is greater dynamics and better rhythmic separation. in all resolutions. Just more musical and without fatigue.
As always, ymmv.
-Al |
Coot, are you using CD resolution music files as the source? Anything higher or lower resolution? Do you hear a clear difference in all these cases? |
The LH replaced a Mapleshade Clearlink II Plus (now in it's 3rd iteration). The thing about usb cables - there are a zillion of them out there, but the LH has had so many positive raves, I just had to try it. As you can tell, I am not disappointed. I do now agree with those who postulate that the USB cable is every bit as important component in a digital system as is the DAC itself. |
Coot,
The USB cable difference is interesting.
What kind of USB cable did the new cable replace?
I have heard clains from knowledgeable sources that USB cables can make a big difference, but its not something that I really understand the how or why nor have I ever experimented with.
I recently added a somewhat vanilla USB connection from my laptop to mhdt Constantine DAC alongside existing Squeezebox feed to same dac via Toslink, but have not had a chance to listen and access in any detail yet. |
Appears not many folk left at this thread, but I'll throw this out there.
1. A pair of Hephaestus Harpoctrates amps on order.
2. Installed a Light Harmonic Lightspeed USB cable (yes, the $999 one) between my Mac Mini and Wyred-4-Sound Dac 2 DSDse. All I can say is worth every penny! Gorgeous life-like SQ. |
Some interesting new content on the www.ohmspeakers.com website these days.
All shapes and sizes of Walshes, many seemingly new, for various applications and locations, with new pics of some. ALso JS's weekly post on various topics. Good stuff! |
Thanks Mapman,
I'll try to contact him.
I'm on temporary hold tip I get my refund from Peachtree. I bought the Grand Integrated on sale but sent it back. The thought of combining was so tempting. Get rid of some wires and boxes - simplify, etc.
But. While bass was good, there was no realism. Pasty gray would be my description. Construction not in the big leagues either. Didn't take long to regret that decision. So back to separates it is. |
Guidocorona here on Agon does a lot of work with Class D amps. Maybe email him and see if he has heard these. |
I have not.
Looks intriguing. Would like to hear. Would appear to be a worthy mate to a pair of larger OHMS. |
I'm about to pull the trigger on Hephaestus Harpocrates amps to feed my Ohm 5000s. Anyone heard this amp?
http://hephaestusaudio.com/forge/hma-harpocrates/ |
"My question is, why go with a 5000 if it still requires a sub?"
No doubt, all smaller speakers including Walshes can play better when amp and speaker work is offloaded to a powered sub.
5000 does not necessarily require a sub though. I feel no need for subs with my 5s, nor with my 100s even in the right sized rooms.
Adding powered subs always ups the ante in terms of output capacity in most any case. But there are ups and downs with any solution, including subs, along the lines commonly discussed.
Adding separate subs means that you are now the speaker designer responsible for the integration top to bottom. How well that all plays out will depend. |
Personally, I find it extremely difficult to dial in a subwoofer so that it sounds like a Walsh. I happen to own a Velodyne SMS-1 and have flattened out the response of the room fairly well after my wife gave me permission to move the sub, but can still always tell when the sound is coming through my Outlaw sub.
My question is, why go with a 5000 if it still requires a sub? I'd rather miss the lowest 5 or 6 Hz than listen to timing mismatches. |
Just a different take on the Hibachi vs class D question.
I personally prefer the 100s with the Hibachis vs my Bel Canto s-300 class D integrated for precisely the same reasons Map prefers his Bel Canto. Run full-range, I like the warmer sounding Hibachis to the tighter Bel Canto. There's certainly a different model class D amp in play here, but I think this one comes down to room/system/personal taste.
Just one more data point. |
Thx for the feedback. It might be time to check out class d more deeply. The idea of a tube are or buffer with it is conceptually intriguing. I was looking at various Rogue integrateds awhile back but got scared off over reports on quality being variable. There are no techs in HI and shipping stuff for repairs gets really costly. My last experience with that added $400 round trip for a $1200 piece of gear. Reliability is as important as sound especially on heavy pieces. |
I use 180w/ch TAD Hibachi monoblocks currently in my second system with teh OHM 100S3s and have used these amps as substitutes for BCs in my main system as well.
These are SS amps made to sound more tube like, lower input impedance, lower damping etc. Sound with these is much different, bass not as tight, etc. That can work for or against you depending on room acoustics. Room acoustics in the room these are in are less than optimal, but not bad.
I much prefer the BC Class D amps with my 100s when I use them in my office, which is more optimal acoustically as well. Concrete foundation with thin pad and carpet there, versus typical plywood flooring and carpet in family room where my second system is. Bottom firing bass ports on Walsh speakers can interact strongly with floors like that.
SO I think BC Class Ds are much better overall for OHMs than the TAD Hibachis, though neither are a slouch by any means. When losser, fatter, whatever you call it bass is called for, amps with damping factor well under 50 might have an edge. |
Hi Joekapahulu
I currently have the Ohm Walsh MicroTall SEs and I'm currently powering them with a pair of Red Dragon M1000 Mk I Monoblocks. With a tube front end I'm VERY happy with this combination. Music is loud and clear and I have bass that I'm very happy with. During the colder months I use a Jolida JD-502P with the Ohms and I'm happy with the results. I do notice a little difference with the bass when I have the Jolida in place. It isn't as tight.
Best of luck in the search. |
I use Bel Canto ref1000m amps with my OHM F5 S3 and Walsh 100S3 speakers.
These are the bomb for those I would say.
Have not heard others with OHM, but I have heard of very good results with OHM and Wyred from others, particularly audiogoner Mamboni, who is perhaps the most knowledgeable and well rounded listeners out there.
500w/ch ref1000ms work well with any OHM it would seem, but is probably overkill for 100s. THey are perfect for my 5s.
For 100s, you can easily get away with "only" 250w/ch in most all cases I would say. That will help lower the cost.
In my experience, larger OHM Walshes in particular benefit from power, current and damping. Modern good quality Class D amps tend to deliver all these in spades in a small and affordable package.
D-sonic is another Class D line worth considering on a budget.
Due to high damping in particular, Class D amps can come across as somewhat lean in some cases when this is not called for. FOr example, this is the case running my little Triangle Titus monitors of the BCs. The resulting sound can be a touch towards the lean and bright side, however over tweaks like adjusting speaker location relative to floor can help even out even this case, so anything is possible with Class D if done right I would say. |
All this discussion about Class D makes me wonder how many of the Ohm owners on this site are running those kinds of amps and if so what? I havent heard a lot, just W4S and Wadia and I wasn't taken with either. The Wyred was 4 or so years ago and the Wadia more recently. I am looking to upgrade my amp ,whether as a separate or integrated to something modern (vs McIntosh mc250) to get more from my ohm w2-100s3. Be interested to hear others comments on this direction and products below $2k. |
Thanks Martykl.
I think step one will be upgrade power amp(s). Then see (rather hear) where to go from there.
Regarding EQ, I am using Amarra w/iRC. I calibrated closely following their instructions but did not care for what it did to the upper range, so a modified the graph by stopping its effect above 1k IIRC. But it did a good job smoothing out the mid-bass, which is really all I wanted. Of course it does not help with bass extension. |
The least expensive way to assure flat 20hz response that I know of would be a Velodyne SMS-1 bass management system (+/- $500 new, if available) coupled with the appropriate subs of your choice ($1k for a pair of SVS 12" sealed subs would probably do the trick. The SMS-1 is kind of a PITA, but it allows parametric EQ down to 15hz (IIRC) with a basic RTA function that allows the user to (maddeningly slowly) adjust FR for flat response down to that frequency. It has an auto EQ function, but IME it's nearly useless. I'd also note that the high cut function is quite limited in flexibility, but I always managed to successfully work with it when I had the SMS-1 in my system.
It ain't perfect, but with the right subs, manual EQ with an SMS-1 will get you flat to <20hz. |
Coot,
Pipe organ music lovers are almost always prime candidates for bigger drivers and more power than most. Powered subs may not be the only way, but probably the most expedient way in most all cases, including OHM.
Just remember that recordings are recordings, not live events. I would not expect much if any music in most recordings below 20hz. The Jean Guillou recording I mentioned above is the one I know that might have the best chance.
Maybe Martykl has that or another recording with music he can measure with his gear down that low. I might have a test CD or test record around still with a 20hz test tone. Or there are tone generator apps on internet and computers that could work with the right connection to assess system performance at the lowest frequencies.
It can be done. Where there is a will (and budget) there is a way....
Good luck. |
Hi Mapman,
I have been many times to organ recitals where 32-ft pipes were in play. The impact of hearing such bass I find to be very satisfying - "awesome" in the true sense of the word. It is that completeness that I wish to attain. I figure 16Hz should do it.
By the way, there are organs with 64-ft (8Hz), even 128-ft pipes (4 Hz!) - but I don't wish to destroy my house even if such achievement were possible. 8-) |
