Ohm Walsh Micro Talls: who's actually heard 'em?

I've heard a Rogue tube power amp with my ARC pre-amp on a dealer system running Maggie 20.1s that I wouldn't have minded owning.

Then on the way out I heard a Rogue integrated running smaller Maggie mmg's that I was not impressed with.

That's about the extent of my Rogue experience though unfortunately.

Rebbi,

While a good SS preamp will probably sound quite good with the Bel Canto, I agree that tubes in your line stage might lend some welcome "body" to the overall Ohm/Bel Canto picture. If you can find an old Dynaco preamp (try for a PAS-4) that's not too noisy, it could be a cost effective solution for you. They sound very good, trade at reasonable prices (I've seen them offered below $500), and the simple circuitry/construction bodes well for the long haul.

Good Luck

Rebbe, another "pre-amp" that popped into my mind that might be worth considering is the PeachTree Decco. These can be had for under $500. It is a well reviewed (low power) hybrid integrated with tube DAC actually, but I'm thinking (not sure though) it might be used as a pre-amp only if desired. You would use digital out from your CD player (assuming that exists also) into the Decco. Phono would connect same as any other pre-amp. IF my assumptions are true, themn this would be the least expensive "high end" pre-amp solution I can think of.

Now HERE'S an interesting possibility. Peachtree is selling refurbished Deccos for $499. My Music Hall CD 25.2 has a digital (TOSLINK) output and the Decco has a digital input, plus 2 analog inputs... that would make one for my outboard phono stage and one for my tuner. And yes, the Decco has stereo preamp outputs... in fact, I believe the Decco is being used by lots of "audiophile" types as a preamp, ignoring the power amp section altogether.

Thoughts?

I think it has a lot to offer for that price and fits your needs well.

I heard one at a local dealer a while back. Did not get to listen long, but it sounded very good. I almost bought one for my second system to replace my Yamaha receiver, but decided to just add a tube dac there instead.

THe only hit against it generally is the power amp is not very beefy, but that is a non -issue for you with separate power amp.

If it didn't work out, you could resell easily without much loss also.

BTW, there is a Musical Fidelity A308CR amp up for sale here currently from a local seller for $1500 that I am strongly considering as a step up from my current A3CR. Wyred 4 Sound has a B stock st--1000 demo unit available also for about $1800 ($2000 list).

I'm open for thoughts on that if anybody has an opinion?

Another high current/poweramp option I have considered for quite a while to open up dynamics further with my OHM 5s in particular is the Musical Fidelity 550K SuperCharger. The price of these has come down quite a bit over the last year or so, as expected, and these are now an option I could try.

I like what I have read about these, but have not heard many testimonials from owners that have used them as "superchargers".

I like that these have their own separate power supplies in addition to the source amp they supercharge that might result in being able to draw more current than any other option I have looked at, which is good. I might be able to place these on a separate circuit in my basement for use with the OHM 5s only, which are really the only speaks I have that I think worth beefing up with more power at this point. The flip side is that these apparently provide a lot of current (100+ amps) but do not double well into 4 ohms compared to most other amps I have looked at.

Problems, problems. I guess I'll just stand pat for now.

In terms of utility, I think the Wyred Class D and MF 550K supercharger options are the ones I am most comfortable with at this point. I really do not want to have to deal with any humongous 100 lb monster sized amplifiers, which is one of the reasons I still am hesitant to change in that the A3CR is not too big and does sound really good as is. I am craving to hear what the big boy amps might do for dynamics overall though!

Yikes, I'm thinking maybe I made a mistake getting the Bel Canto!

It hasn't arrived yet, and I'm still looking for a tube preamp. But here's the rub: now I see that the Bel Canto S300 has an input impedance of "only" 10K ohms, and everybody seems to say that you'd want the output impedance of the preamp to be "much smaller" (whatever that means) than the input impedance of the power amp. I don't really understand any of this, but can somebody help me, here? Did I blow this purchase? (The folks over in the Amp forum haven't been all that much help, so I turn to you, my Ohm buddies...)

Rebbi,

On paper, that is true, but specs are only guidelines I think in any particular case you have to try it and see (or actually hear) how it compares to what you had.

Once you have good stuff to start with, upgrading becomes more of an experiment almost at first, and your Unico was a pretty nice piece from what I have read (I've considered buying one myself for my second system on occasion, same true of teh Bel Canto gear).

Rebbi,

Don't sweat it. There are lots of tube pre-amps with lowish OI. If you're nervous, compile a list and shop from it. (You might want to start with Quicksilver, they will drive anything.) Tube pre-amps with buffered output stages are sometimes designed with just this issue in mind, you can always look there. Finally, even though tubes may well be appealling, they are hardly a requirement. Why dismiss a good ss preamp? The Bel Canto instantly comes to mind!

Marty

Marty

Yeah... I saw on Audio Asylum a thread on "good preamps for the Bel Canto S300," which seemed to include some tube preamp suggestions, so I'll try and calm down, now.

The Unico sold in just over a day, so that bridge is burned... but it will fund the preamp, so I'm okay with it! :-)

Marty,

Thanks a lot for the reassurance! :-)

Somebody has a Blue Circle BC21 on 'gon right now at a good price. I called BC and got Gilbert, the designer! (Gotta love small audio companies!) He told me that the impedance matching thing was often "bullsh*t" and that the BC21, with an output impedance of 2.2K ohms, would drive the Bel Canto and anything else I could throw at it.

BTW, it occurred to me later that Blue Circle markets the Penny, an Ohm CLS-based speaker.... so maybe that's a good omen. ;-)
So, there you go.

This is so not an audiophile moment…

Last night I was playing along with my bass to a Black Sabbath re-master of N.I.B from the ‘Symptom of the Universe; compilation. Before the Ohm’s, I didn’t really pay much attention to re-masters. With my Deftechs, recording or mastering quality didn’t matter all that much: they made everything sound OK. The Ohm’s are a different matter entirely. If the recording is crap, they seem to faithfully reproduce the crap.

Anyway, I find my old release of the first Black Sabbath CD un-listenable. So, I gave this version a shot. All I can say is that it reminded me of my days as a kid listening to vinyl on dad’s Sansui stereo through old Wharfdale speakers. The sound was so full and rich, from Bill Ward’s drums to Geezers bass that I stopped playing along and just listened. But it was when I turned my back to the speakers that I noticed that the whole room seemed to by charged with the sound with an in-tact soundstage to my rear. No other speakers I’ve owned have come even close to that kind of presentation.

Another re-master I whole-heartedly recommend is the new King Crimson ‘Red’ DVD-A re-master by Steve Wilson and Fripp.

The Ohm Micro-Walsh Talls continue to impress, as long as I have a decent source.

Next up I’m considering a tube pre-amp. Probably next year after we move to Virginia. As usual, the recent subject of this thread has my attention…

Spoke to Matt at Bel Canto today. He says that what's called for is a preamp with an impedance output of between 50 and 100 ohms. At least I have a ballpark figure to look at, now. Question is, is there a tube preamp like that, or will I need to go with SS? Any ideas?

The Manley Shrimp (or new Jumbo Shrimp) is a highly regarded tube preamp and has a 50 ohm output impedance.

Juicy Music BLueberry: output impedance 3.5K ohms, not as low as the Manley perhaps but will cost less (Juicy may be in process of closing up shop however)

FWIW my ARC sp16 output impedance is ~20K ohm and the input impedance of my A3CR amp is just over 30K ohm.

Input impedance of new BElCanto Ref 1000m Class D amps is over 300K I read.

Wyred 4 Sound Class Ds are 60K ohm I read.

Also, stock IcePower Class Ds are only 5K or so I think I read, not a great match for just any tube pre-amp.

Juicy Music Blueberry Line Stage specs:

* Gain:16dB
* Frequency Response:-3dB 2Hz - 40kHz
* Hum and Noise:85dB
* THD:0.2% 20Hz - 20kHz ref. 2V out
* Max Output:40Vrms into 47k ohms
* Input Impedance:100k ohms
* Output impedance:3.5k ohms

Spoke to Matt at Bel Canto today. He says that what's called for is a preamp with an impedance output of between 50 and 100 ohms

- shrink and center the quoted text

Rebbi, there are a limited number of tube preamps avaiable that will fall in the 50-100 output impedance range but if a Bel Canto rep says it, then its advisable to stick with that. I'd steer clear of preamps with output impedance in the thousands if I were you. The Juicy Music preamps do have variable output impedance that can be swithced to low output impedance.

Rebbe,

YEs, the Peach is the one without phono and apparently lower possible output impedance also, so that would be the Juicy Music one for you to consider.

Tvad,

I know you've heard a lot of combos and have a good handle on the matching impedance issue between amp and pre.

Do you find that the ratio of amp input to pre-amp output impedance is a reliable indicator of performance? If so, what differences do you hear consistently as this varies? Are there thresholds regarding this ration that can be identified that reliably predict actual performance in certain areas?

Thanks for whatever insight you might offer up on this topic.

Tvad,

Have you found the better clarity and control extends into the upper frequency ranges as well?

Any downsides that you can identify to go along with the benefits?

This is something I'd really like to test out in my system.

Tvad,

One other question.

Certainly a low pre-amp output impedance seems to make it easier to match more amplifier input impedances, but I wonder is it the absolute value of the preamp output impedance, or the ratio or magnitude of amp input impedance to pre-amp output impedance in the end that matters?

Here's an interesting thread on the impedance matching issue:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1227661419&openflup&12&4#12

The consensus here seems to be a 10:1 amp input/pre-amp out ratio is a good target. Also that actual output impedances of pre-amps is higher at lower frequencies with can negatively impact bass response.

So for example, my case, with the ARC sp16 premap output impedance being 20K ohm, I would want an amp in the 200K input impedance range (my A3CR is only 31K).

Also, interconnects factor into the equation in regards to impedance loads presented to the pre-amp, so things get mor complicated again here.

Of the SS amps I've considered, the newer Bel Canto Ref1000m would be the best choice for me apparently, but pricey. I'll be looking to find some other options and will not rule out tube amps necessarily either.

Hi Rebbe and to all in the best thread at the 'Gon.

RE JUICY:
This was posted on their site today:

"Time to turn out the lights...

It has been a great 5 years, but it is time for me to retire. I will no longer be building any new production batches of the BlueBerry, Peach, Tercel or pCAT. I WILL however, be completely supporting all customers (in and out of warranty) with their repair, upgrade and modification needs.

The web site will be here for ahwile (as reference), but I am removing the PayPal purchase buttons.

If you have any questions about your product, just send me an e-mail."

Rebbe,

After some investigation, the ARC sp16 I use is also a candidate for you at least technically, though the cost may be a tad higher.

Here are the specs:

260 ohms Single Ended main;

20K ohms minimum (amplifier input) load and 1000 pF maximum capacitance

So ARC recommends a ratio actually of about 77:1 for this pre-amp, which is well beyond the 10:1 minimum that many indicate in general.

With your Bel Canto's input impedance of 10000 ohms (half the ARC recommended value) the ratios with ARC sp16 would still be over 38:1, still almost 4 times the consensus minimum, so I think the Bel CAnto will work fine with any of the tube pre-amps identified above (Manley, ARC, Juicy) with the similar low output impedance specs.

YEs, the consensus also seems to be that the higher ratio the better for optimal interfacing between amp and pre (sounds kinky), so who knows where a 10:1 minimum comes from?

10:1 is based on reasonable power loss across the preamp output: the pream-amp circuit is a power divider. At 10:1 preamp to amp impedance only about 10% of the voltage signal is "wasted" in the preamp output stage. However, no preamp has a perfectly falt output impedance across the audible frequency range. The 10:1 should be applied to the peak output impedance of the preamp, not the manufacturer's stated nominal impedance. Impedance mismatch is a predictable source of coloration. The preamp is a voltage source that prefers to see an infinite impedance so that it is not loaded down which results in voltage sags and distortion.

The best SS amps use FETs for differential input stage for this reason.

BTW: My Walsh 5 Mk IIIs will be going back to Ohm for repairs on one driver. I spoke to John and decided to upgrade to the Walsh 5000. John says the improvement in sound will be "evolutionary," and they have double the peak power handling and go a little lower. I'll take any improvement I can get with these most fantastic loudspeakers.

Everybody,

Thanks for the advice. There's a Manley Shrimp up on A'gon right now. A little pricier than I'd like (and no remote) but output impedance is only 50K ohms, so I'm seriously considering it.

Fascinating discussion, by the way. I've learned a ton from you guys!

"output impedance is only 50K"

You meant 50 ohm, I assume, right Rebbi?

Mamboni,

You are using the 500w/ch Wyred4Sound amp these days I think I recall?

How do you like it?

Any chance this is too much power for the 5s resulting in the driver damage you report?

The 500w/ch Wyred is probably the most powerful amp option out there that I have considered and I'm wondering if it is overkill, and 250w/ch or so is plenty.

Mapman said:
You are using the 500w/ch Wyred4Sound amp these days I think I recall?

How do you like it?

Any chance this is too much power for the 5s resulting in the driver damage you report?

The 500w/ch Wyred is probably the most powerful amp option out there that I have considered and I'm wondering if it is overkill, and 250w/ch or so is plenty.

Yes, I am using the Wyred4Sound St-1000 which is nominal 550W/ch into 8 ohms. These amps are the first to really take hold of the power-hungry Walsh 5's and put them through their paces. The Walsh 5's have peak power in excess of 500W so I do not think this is too much power. I certainly am careful not to overdrive them. However, I have played full orchestral works with organ where there are rare 95-100 db peaks. But the average sound level is typically 75 db and typical peaks around 95 db.

The problem is in the left channel head unit. The woofer and tweeter sound perfectly fine, so this is not a case of fried driver or damaged voice coil per se. There is a buzz coming out of the speaker, centered around 1-2 khz I'd estimate, that occurs intermittently and is hightly frequency dependent. The following source materials evince this buzz, which sounds like a resonance:

1. Piano - only some recordings and at one keyboard note
2. female soprano voice on some recordings
3. french horns and trombones playing around concert Bb (horn's F at the top of the staff)
4. some organ recordings

My guess is that is is a loose soldier joint, board component or even a loose screw or plug - that's what the buzz reminds me of. I don't abuse my Walshs but they do get a lot of use. I log easily 3-4 hours listening per day; on weekends that might be 6 hours. And I lean towards full orchestral and organ recordings, so the Walshs get a workout. I've owned Ohm loudspeaker for many years and they are true workhorses - well engineered to operate trouble-free in the field. But after several thousands of hours of being subjected to vibrations, something is bound to loosen.

I'm compiling a CD with various tracks that evince the "buzz" so John at Ohm can hoepfully identify the fault.

BTW: I spent several weeks doing inventory on my listening, moving and removing any object which might be resonating and the source of the buzz - to no avail. I am fairly certain it is coming from the driver head unit.

I discovered the problem several weeks ago when I was driving the Walshs with my Sumo Andromeda II amps (240W/ch into 8 ohms). When I described the problem to John at the time he suggested that the amp might be clipping - he informed me that the power peaks on piano strikes and female soprano can be wicked, even at moderate listening levels. Nevertheless, the problem is virtually the same with the much more powerful ST-1000, so I don't think clipping is the problem. And I never had this problem with my original (classic) Walsh 5's.

Hi guys. I don't want to sidetrack the dialogue on preamps but I thought I would poke my head in and say hello. I just picked up a pair of circa 1990 Ohm Walsh 2's for $100. I listened to them last night with my Eastern Electric M520.. not the best match, I know. I found they showed promise with certain characteristics of sound so I intend to upgrade with current parts from Ohm to bring them up to the same spec as the Walsh 2000's. I'm going to rework the cabinets as well and use a very dramatic veneer ala Duevel. Should be a fun project. I'll keep this thread updated on my progress.

Mamboni,

Thanks for the if. The 500W Wyreds could well be the way I go. The value is there and your recommendatio with the 5s makes for a strong case. Thanks!

THE, nice $100 pickup. Upgrading will make a big difference. It did when I went from original Walsh 2s to my current "Super" Walsh 2s (1003 drivers). Keep us posted!

thehungryeye,

Welcome to the wonderful world of Ohm and our monster thread! ;-)

Okay,

Here are my main choices as I see it:

I can get a Manley Shrimp tube preamp - excellent reviews - for $1100 here on A'gon. It has an output impedance of 50 ohms, good fit for the Bel Canto. And a guy on Audio Asylum is using just this amp/preamp combo and really likes it. Advantage: maybe great sound, and I get to mess with tubes. Disadvantages: a little over my budget, and no remote.

OR: I can snag a Bel Canto Pre3 preamp for $999, plus shipping. Advantages: barely within my budget, aesthetic and acoustic match and remote control, so no getting up and down to adjust volume. Disadvantage: don't get to mess with tubes. :-)

What do you think? Hurry, please! :-)

Reb,

That's a tough one!

I suspect either will sound very good and thr right choice is the one with the features that best float your boat!

I just sent payment for the Manley Shrimp! The reviews for the Pre3/S300 combo are excellent, but the reviews for the Manley Shrimp (by users and reviewers) are ecstatic, and I really did want to try a tube preamp. It'll be a more complex physical setup -- the two Bel Canto pieces would have stacked on top of each other and fit on top of my stereo cabinet. The full width Manley and half-width BC will take some fiddling to place. The only substantial deficit in the new setup will be lack of a volume control, which I can live with if the sound quality is what I think it might be. The Bel Canto arrives today. I'll report back when both pieces are in place and working! :-)

REbbi,

I suspect you are in for a treat once you get everything set up!

Rebbi: Good luck with the Shrimp. I've heard Manley gear at shows and always came away impressed. IMHO, the tube-pre/SS-power combo can be marvelous. If you really miss the remote, you can do what I did - I positioned my rack and preamp so that the controls are within arm's reach from my seat.

Mapman: Are you looking for a new power amp? If so, what are your parameters & budget?

Well, I continue to burn-in my 2000s. While they do some things extremely well (timbre, soundstage, detail, lack of compression, et. al.), I am still on the fence about some aspects of the Walsh 2000's presentation. I have moved the 2000s to a more radical toe-in, with the flat face of the front of the speakers intersecting at the listening chair. I am trying to tone-down the super-tweeter a bit, and this is what Ohm suggests. Too early to tell if this will do the trick. Ultimately, John has offered to swap out the drivers to lower the tweeter output a bit if I am still unhappy after the break-in, so one way or another, I suppose this issue will be resolved.

I am going to try this weekend to trim back the subwoofer output a bit. Although on bass-shy material the added bass output is welcome, on material with more substantial bass it can be a bit too much.

If any of you lurking out there have new thousand-series Ohm Walsh speakers, please chime in with your thoughts on the super-tweeter output. Thanks.

Bond,

Toe-in/out relative to prime listening position is the best way to tune the top end of the Walshes.

Use a loosely rolled up sock or foam plug to partially obstruct the flow of air through the ports on the bottom to tame the low end if needed.

PErsonally, I'd give it cosiderable time and work on getting everything tuned in just right to personal taste before customizing driver outputs, but it is very nice the John offers this service when desired.

What ICs are you using? I've found low cost DNM Reson ICs provide very nice overall control top to bottom with the Walshes compared to other ICs I use.

Yes, I have been looking at a bigger amp mainly for my 5s in the larger room, but I have not been able to justify the expenditure needed so far....what I have sounds too good already, even with the bigger 5s in the larger room, and I am hesitant to change a good thing and break it.

Bondmanp,

From talking to John Strohbeen, my understanding is that the late-model 100-S3's that I have do use the same supertweeter as the newer X000 series. So maybe I can comment.

My Ohms are sounding very nice these days. Bass is more controlled and highs are clearer and airier. Some of this has to do with having finally found, I think, the best room positioning, which took me quite a bit of fiddling. And some of it, I'm assuming, is break-in. So, for what it's worth, take your time. And yes, John will work very, very hard to keep an existing customer happy. When I had the Micro Walsh'es, and found the highs rolled off, he sent me a set of alternative drivers using a different tweeter configuration.

Fellow OHM'ers (or OHM boys or whatever we like to call ourselves):

I plan an experiment trying the big M&K sub I have running in my second system with my OHM 5s.

I'm thinking this may be the more practical (and cost effective) way to beef things up in that room.

I'd like to get the low end impact levels up to par with the 100.3s in the smaller room. Both run off my main system, the 5s in an adjacent room connected via in-wall speaker wiring I had installed when the house was built.

The issue I have with the OHM 5s is largely attributable to my L shaped room. Bass levels are up to snuff with the 100.3s in the smaller room towards the front of my main listening area but drops off further back. This is the L shaped room with thin carpeted concrete foundation floors where the OHMS sit in the short end of the L firing into the long length, where most listening is done (see my system photo with the Jack Russell Terrier adornment). In the short end of the L and just in front, bass levels are good...further back they drop off.

I will try the M&K V1-B sub located both up front near the speakers and back along the wall closer to the main listening area and see what happens.

The M&K has speaker level inputs/outputs and adjustable crossover. That will allow me to roll the 5s off at a higher frequency than normal and fill in the low end with the powered sub. If this works, then I might need to add another sub still because my second system really depends on one. I'd get one with the intent of it going to work with the OHM 5s indefinitely.

Fun fun fun. We'll see.....

The Ohm Walsh 5s produce some of the best bass known, in quantity, quality and extension. Why would you possibly need a subwoofer? There's got to be a better placement - a few inches can change the bass output in-room, dramatically.

I talked to John today about upgrading my Walsh 2's to 2.2000's. I was ready to order the upgrade but when I found out the driver in the 2000 is aluminum I balked. Admittedly, I haven't heard many aluminum drivers but the ones I have heard I did not enjoy. Now I may just upgrade to the 1000 spec which has a paper cone.

On a side note, I wanted to try something solid state so I paired the Walsh 2's with a late 70's Luxman receiver and I'm gobsmacked at the sound I'm getting. Anything percussive sounds brilliant which has me scratching my head how a 30+ year old solid state amp, a receiver no less, can sound so good. I'm sure a nuerotic audiophile would find something to pick apart, but man, this combo plays music! I honestly would consider not upgrading the driver now that I've found an amp that dovetails so well with these speakers. However, curiosity will always get the best of me, so I'll move forward with the upgrade. I also just picked up a pair of Walsh 4's. Needless to say, I'm seriously sold on Ohm.

Aluminum?

The voice coil perhaps (I think original OHM Fs used an aluminum voice coil) or maybe the supertweeter but I can't imagine the Walsh driver material itself. That would be something new for sure.

Luxman made some good stuff. My old Walsh 2s and current Dynaudios could sing pretty well with my old Tandberg tr-2080 receiver also.

Mamboni, in looking at my subwoofer specs this evening, I decided there is little to gain and to leave well enough alone. Things sound to good the way they are. Maybe a bigger amp at some point, but I really do not want to muck with the sound I am getting.