Now That You've Ripped Your Entire Collection...

After 18 months of ripping my 1,100 CDs, I did another activity I'm happy about. I recycled all the plastic cases. Most went via craigslist, apparently folks need them. Then I bought a bunch of paper cd sleeves, in 5 colors. Color coded best I could into 5 genres, and here's the benefit. My big heavy pile of cases are gone, and all my CDs fit into 3 shoeboxes and one larger box. The space & weight saving alone is dandy. Esp when I moved cross country last year. 

Thanks, Al, I'll look into that further.

Never knew you could do that! It sounds like a fine Plan B.

Rhanson, I have no Mac experience, but I would think that it should be possible to set things up such that the wifi device (an iPad, perhaps?) and the Mac Mini can communicate with each other without the cable service and the internet (or the cable modem, for that matter) being involved. Either through a router, if your setup includes one and both devices can access it, or directly between the two devices via a wireless "ad hoc network."

Just a thought.

Regards,
-- Al

Tbg --

I know what you mean. Just last night our cable service went out for an extended period. No phone; no internet; no TV. (It was bliss, in a way.)

Thing is, I was using WiFi to run my headless Mac Mini, so no tunes, either! Plus, I have a driver on the Mini that runs the Off Ramp, which I had not installed on any other machine in the house.

Figured I'd hook up an aged MacBook Pro to the disc and DAC to replace the Mini and. It played, but it really sounded bad. Although the tunes were appreciated, it was all I could do to hang in.

Lesson learned. Have a backup plan that includes a laptop with all the appropriate drivers and software, just in case the internet goes down.

Having had my Mac Mini go bad which is central to my music server, I have reverted to music in Itune on my Mac Book pro and also through my dac. Frankly, I might as well watch March Madness. It is so digital and flat or two dimensional. It is had to believe that I ever tolerated this. Fortunately, my vinyl sounds great although it is no where near the converience.

My insurance company will cover the full replacement cost for each CD I own if it can be sourced. I had this specifically outlined in my policy before signing. The same goes for vinyl. They will not insure 1's and 0's on SSDs and HDDs. Not yet at least.

The suggestion given to me was to buy digital from companies that offer a "redownload" policy like Apple with iTunes. Otherwise, ripped discs without the discs = nothing given theft or a disaster. Same with the data on drives, if I can't redownload, I've lost my music.

I have my digital music collection on a WD4000 NAS configured in Raid5 that is then backed up to a Raid10 system via USB3. With the price of drives these days being so inexpensive Raid is the best way to store data. As for a controller failing just buy the same controller, reconnect drives in the same Order and you are back up in no time. I can also access the NAS from anywhere with the remote access SW that come free with the WD as does a domain name. Most of us here spend more on a amp then it would cost to build a Raid system.

I've now finished ripping the majority of my collection -- the good stuff -- to disc.

I now know what David12 said about how ripping 20-30 discs a day gives life some meaning. ;) What do I do with all my free time, now?

Oh, sure... I could actually listen to the music, but that's so... so... passive.

Rob

Although my music server sounds wonderful connected to my Audio Research DAC, the separate CD Transport that I use still sounds slightly better connected to the same DAC. Even when I swapped the inputs from optical to RCA for both. So, when I really want to listen, sometimes I'll play the CD over the Music Server. But, when I really, really want to listen, I'll play the album on my turntable, which is still better sounding than my digital set up. They all sound wonderful, but there are differences. in this order. 1) TT to phono stage to pre-amp, 2) CD Transport to DAC to pre-amp, 3 ) Music Server to DAC to pre-amp. So, in answer to your question, I think I'll keep my CDs.

enjoy

Thank you Al and Tbg. Yes a USB external drive is the best solution for me. Sorry if my question hijacked this thread.

Coressence, it appears that unlike the RAID array Tbg uses your Music Vault server does not utilize drives that are mounted in readily removable trays. So I don't think that his approach is applicable to your situation.

If that is correct, I would simply select a 2TB USB external hard drive from among those listed by NewEgg.com at the link I provided earlier, taking into account the user comments that are provided there. Although keep in mind that those comments inevitably reflect a disproportionately high percentage of negative experiences, and comments that were not posted fairly recently may not be representative of currently manufactured product.

Also, I note that some and possibly all of the Music Vault models can accommodate direct connection of a USB external drive, which may prove to be more convenient than the usual approach of copying via a computer.

Regards,
-- Al

Coressence, my music server's raid is the TuneBank from Empirical Audio. Actually, it is from their Legacy division which is for pro audio. The drives can be hot removed and replaced. I really don't have any good ideas about backing up yours. Where you computer a Mac, you might inquire about using Time Machine. I know nothing about Windows machines, however.

I would talk with the Music Vault people about this.

Tbg- My server (Music Vault) includes 2 tb drives in raid with one having the purpose of being a source for the player and the other 2tb as back-up. I would like to do what you did and back up my servrer with another hd that I can keep in another location. Any recommendations on a good back-up drive to use?

I have kept my CD's which account for most of my collection, and do not expect to dispose or sell them. That said, re-ripping would take a long time...

I have a raid system with four 2 Tbs each. One is not kept in my home. Two are in the raid and the final one is in a special case in another room. Much of what I have is from HD downloads and much is from SACDs in DSD format that is irreplaceable.

I have all of my discs stored in boxes or in slip folders.

Tomyc6 is right on. You need redundancy for your electronic files. Keep your redbook cd's in a different location in case you lose all your hardware

Crazy? No. Careful? Yes.

That's a good thing to keep in mind about RAID-... As long as all your data is in one physical location -- even on different disks -- you're still at risk.

Rhanson739, I was talking about interface chip on computer motherboard. People often believe that Raid mirroring gives them 100% protection while in reality they are subject to computer hardware failure, viruses, overvoltage, operating system software failure and even static electricity. The safer solution is unpowered drive in a storage. One I have at home resides in fireproof safe. Am I crazy?

Thanks, Al. Seems that there are some significant differences between Windows and Mac... but we knew that. ;)

Regarding my earlier point about drives that are larger than 2.19 TB, I should emphasize that the caution about using them with older operating systems only applies to drives that are directly connected to the computer, such as via USB, Firewire, or eSATA. I'm pretty certain that caution does not apply to networked (NAS) storage, assuming that the design of the NAS enclosure supports larger drives.

Regarding cloning programs for Windows, IMO it is generally simpler and better to just copy the files, rather than creating a drive clone. Under some circumstances allowing Windows to "see" both a drive and an identical clone of that drive can result in problems, caused by inconsistencies in the drive letters that Windows assigns.

Regards,
-- Al

Kinanki --

A controller failure? Where's that point, in the PC/Mac itself, or in the drive(s)? And are you referring to a single RAID-1 drive, or my solution of two separate and distinct drives?

If the 'controller' is in the drives, then two physical drives plus the CD collection should be adequate backup, I would think, given that those represent three separate copies. If the 'controller' is in the system... I have any number of Macs in the house that I could swap in and out, simply connecting the live drive to the machine. (My current box is a Mac Mini with 16GB of memory, SSD drive, and software stripped to the essentials. I can move a Macbook Pro back in without flinching.)

Hope I'm not missing something. In my view, redundancy and off-site backups are goodness. Is there something better, or more secure that I've neglected to consider?

Rhanson739, redundancy won't help in case of controller failure that can make both disks unusable not to mention Windows itself (known to go crazy) even without viruses. That's in addition to overvoltage, lightning, fire theft etc. Another advantage of separate disk is the fact that it is unpowered. MTBF is rated for working HD and not for one in storage.

Should have mentioned in case anyone's interested:

The quiet drive mentioned above is an OWC Mercury Elite-Al Pro, available from macsales.com. It's about the quietest drive I've ever heard.

Carbon Copy Cloner is a great program that allows you to clone exact copies of one drive to another. It's great for the music libraries, or routine system maintenance. It runs on a Mac... don't know if there's a PC version, or not.

I had initially picked up a 2TB Raid-1 (redundant) drive for the music library, but I moved it out for two reasons: First, the fan was too noisy for a music system, and as Kijanki mentions above, the redundancy won't help if you have a fire, theft, or other calamity. Raid-1 only helps if your 'primary' drive in the cabinet goes down; that's when the mirror will kick in.

So, I bought two identical 2TB drives that I knew were very quiet. I'm ripping my collection to the 'primary' drive, and I occasionally use Carbon Copy Cloner to clone that 'primary' drive to the 'secondary'. I do this whenever I've ripped enough CDs that I wouldn't want to lose the time and effort.

The second drive, once cloned, goes down the street to a friend's house. Then, of course, there's the hardcopy backup in the physical CDs. I just don't know where I'm gonna put the darned things... square footage is hard to come by around here.

Thanks for the advice. I have an external hard drive with 4 TB and another 4 TB for the mirrored backup (4 slots holding 2 TB hard drives). I actually quite a bit of storage because I am ripping everything to WAV files.

It looks like I will need another such unit to keep in the office.

Larry, just buy an external hard drive having an interface that can connect to one of your home computers, such as USB, Firewire, or eSATA. Connect it to one of those computers, that can access the NAS, and use the computer to copy the files from the NAS to it. Then simply store the drive at another location, such as your office, and bring it home from time to time to copy newly ripped files onto it.

One caution in selecting the drive is that older operating systems, such as Windows XP, will have problems working with drives that are larger than 2 TB (or more precisely, larger than 2.19 TB). Before you finish ripping your 4000 CDs you'll probably find yourself exceeding that size. If you are using XP, or a Mac OS that pre-dates Tiger (which was released in 2005), you would want to get multiple external drives that are each 2 TB or less, rather than anything larger.

NewEgg.com is a great place from which to buy these and other kinds of computer accessories and parts. Here is a link to their listings of 300+ external hard drives, which you can narrow down to suit your requirements using the guided search feature at the left of the screen. Be sure to note the "More Options" link in that feature.

Best regards,
-- Al

I bring drive home every time I feel it needs to be updated. I alternate drives remembering which drive was updated last. I decide to update when I add more than 10 CDs. In worst case when I loose original drive and one backup I can be 20 CDs behind but that's not bad.

Kijanki,

Pardon my ignorance, but, how do you actually work the second drive at the office approach? I have a NAS at home with mirror drives, but, of course that is hardly protection against something really bad (like someone stealing the whole unit). I would really hate having to re-rip my collection (I am currently about half way through 4,000 cds, and this is turning out to be a LOT of work).

Do you somehow stream the data to your office hard drives or do you take the hard drives out of your home unit to take to the office, or. . . . As you can see, I am someone who needs an idiot's guide to how this is done.

Bondmanp, I have second hard drive backup just in case of controller failure (or my mistake) during backup process, that can damage both drives - source and backup. I also keep second drive at my work (fire, theft). For these reasons I don't believe in RAID drive mirroring. In addition I keep original CDs.

I'm at roughly the halfway point in my ripping program. I am keeping everything. First, I still use CDs in the car. Second, I haven't yet been able to fully trust hard drives, even with backups. Even when I eventually upgrade to a solid state drive, and even if I start using SDcards or USB thumb drives in the car, I will keep my CDs as the ultimate backup. Of course, it's not much reassurance: It's taken me 18 months to rip half of my CDs, so it's a 3-year project (accurately tagging my CDs, especially the home-made ones and needle-drops, is very time consuming). I don't think I'd ever want to do this a second time. I am seriously thinking about a second backup hard drive.

My brother and two other hobbyists has a full copy of all drives, all my CDs are in storage bins. I don't sell my music, just listen.

"Jult52: I read about audiophiles dispensing with their CDs and I am puzzled by the excessive amount of confidence they have in their physical harddrives and the ability to decode them."

Last year I had 2 laptops and a backup drive die within a few weeks of each other. People need to learn the hard way. I did.

@David12:

Who's going to know if you ripped the CD's?

Read the Computer Audiophile site on backing up your data - you need at least 2 backup copies and a CD is sure handy as one of those.

I read about audiophiles dispensing with their CDs and I am puzzled by the excessive amount of confidence they have in their physical harddrives and the ability to decode them.

Larryi --

You and another poster bring up a good point with respect to copyright infringements. I had not considered that at first.

Between that, and wanting to have the CDs around in case better ripping technology comes about, I'm deciding to hang onto the CDs.

Thanks all,
Rob

I know it is a pretty low priority to most people, but, it is illegal to rip CDs and then sell or give away the same CDs --that violates "fair use." If you sell or give away the collection a second (and later, third, fourth, etc.) purchaser will be acquiring the music without the original license holder getting any royalties.

I am in the process of ripping my collection (currently up to 2100 CDs ripped. I will be keeping the original CDs. Given how much work is involved (A LOT--to correct/complete metadata for classical cds), I expect to never have to re-rip the CDs (the NAS is backed up). Aside from security issue, I am not convinced that current ripping is "bit perfect" so that once ripped, one has all that can ever be extracted from the CD (as the original source). Not that I trust "Absolute Sound" (certainly not absolutely), but they did publish a "study" that showed differences in the way the files were ripped and stored (FLAC vs. WAV) and between the software used to do the ripping. I have heard a FLAC vs. WAV demonstration where differences could easily be heard (in favor of WAV), and quite a few users have reported that CD playback through a particular DAC sounded better than playing back a ripped file of that CD through the same DAC. This suggests another reason to hold on to CDs for at least a little while longer until one can be absolutely assured of perfect retrieval of what is on the CD.

Backup, backup and totally more backup, to many different hard drives. Be sure to have rented a safe deposit box to store one of the backup copies. I am sure your house will burn down one day and all, including the CD's themselves will be lost. No, the cloud is not as safe.

One day soon enough people will look back on today's computer audio systems with fond memories and some of the hardware will be in landfills along with the older yet disc players mouldering away into antiquity. Hopefully our kids and their kids will do a better job of recycling than we have though.

Traded most of mine to Amazon. They give you varying value based on marketability of the performer, release year, and title. They also include for the shipping back to them. So all you need to do is pack them, and drop at the post office.

You may not get top dollar, but its a lot less hassle than selling individually, and you get credit to buy more music.

I don't have any music.

+1 Davt

+1 Davt. Not only legally, but ethically.

US copyright law also stipulates continued ownership of the physical originating copy.

I will go ahead and make the offer to keep any and all of yours, or anyones cd's in a safe place. I will even mail them back to you if the time ever arrises that you need them back. Just saying :)

The Compact Disc will make a resurgence in the year 2031. Tens of thousands of CD's will be re-issued at which time you will be able to sell your "original" 1st editions as "Hot Stampers" in the CD format and make a killing. This will allow the funds necessary to buy you that $100,000.00 system you always dreamed of way back in 2013.

Congratulations on your awesome system!

Mine are still on the shelves. Think I'll keep them for a while as there's no good alternative.

Have u seen some of the prices their getting on eBay ?

I still buy and trade used cd's and will undoubtedly do so for several years to come. Take them to your local record/cd store and they'll give you a buck or so for the good ones....or keep them around for the cd revival of 2033, right after the Great Cloud Collapse of 2029. LOL

Rok2id is referring to the famous but somewhat inaccurate attribution to Mark Twain of the statement that "reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated." In other words the CD medium, like the LP, is not yet dead.

Regards,
-- Al

~

Not quite sure what you mean by that, Rok2id.

I didn't think burying them was an option, but now that I consider cash and precious metals, I could see how that might work out. Should keep them nice and safe. Now, what's the best way to waterproof them?

;)

You folks are burying CDs, like others, in the past, buried the LP. Mark Twain comes to mind.